ST v SW

[S.L.Acker]

This situation is less like US and Europe today than it is the iron curtain and Berlin wall of twenty years ago.

Most places in the Empire don't need to wait in breadlines and are free to travel so your comparison doesn't work in the slightest. The average citizen likely feels the same about the Empire as the average American feels about the US; they don't always like it, but they don't care enough to do anything. Half of the people won't even turn out to vote let alone embrace a new way of living from some place on the other side of a wormhole...

I'm looking, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I'm seeing a lot of people (including yourself) who've noticed the better quality of life, and doing some agitating for changes along those lines. You don't need mass uprisings to make progress.

How much is actually changing? You show me real changes in US policy to match the way things work in countries you consider nicer. Then look at how long that nation has been better for and see how slowly things change.

You're not getting that this is about domestic policy, not military.

A none secure Utopia isn't a Utopia. If I need to worry that ever few years a Borg cube, or planet trashing alien might show up I'm not in a Utopia.

Quite frankly, I was more interested to see if there was anything along the same pattern, given the major thematic differences between the two universes. Wars isn't exactly written for utopianism.

So you're not going to even prove that the majority of world in the UFP are living in a state of bliss. You're going to take examples of the way things are on major worlds as shown from the perspective of starfleet officers and put it against a source where the views are mainly from the viewpoint of rebels. How many worlds have needed evacuation? How many failed colonies are there? How many planets on the edge of the neutral zone live in constant fear from the cold war with the Klingons and Romulans?

Wealthy doesn't mean much on its own, and being well defended is somewhat beside the point.

Ignore the quote about the quality of life that I also included...

Holographic entertainment, you say?

You say that as if you assume that Trek has better.

I'd like to hear more. Being at the edge of the galaxy leaves some question as to whether it is even a part of the evil galactic empire at all, but maybe it's got something close to the quality of life we're discussing here. We'll need more information to be sure, since the description is a tad bit vague.

News flash moron, most of these articles are stubs with very little to go on. Yet it's still more than we have about worlds that aren't Earth or Vulcan in the UFP.

How do the townies view it?

I can't say, we don't get any more info.

You mean that bloodsport from the Phantom Menice?

So racing is now a blood sport because of a few cheaters involved in a race on a mob controlled world?

Say what you will about abandoning currency-based economics, but no reported depressions on earth after they made that change.

What is the state of the average member world of the UFP?

Wait, those were the best you could find out of 130 entries?

I started at the beginning of an alphabetically sorted list and had mostly stub articles to go from. It's not like we have a CIA world factbook entry for each minor world...

I'm no sure any of them made it up to that standard just from your description. What're the schools like? How's the weather? What do people with no money experience on these planets?

I'm going to hold you to your own standards then. Prove that every single sentient being in the UFP's territory lives in what they would describe as a Utopia. Tell me about how the average Joe lives on worlds major worlds that aren't Earth or Vulcan. How about on less major worlds?

Pretty nice isn't what we were discussing in our little wager.

It works well enough when we know so little about the majority of places in the UFP and what we do see is from the rose tinted view of Federation officers.

You want to know about Andoria?

No, I want to know about all the minor worlds the ones that don't get major screen time. The ones that are off the beaten path and are mentioned as part of a characters back story and then forgotten. I looked through about half of the worlds starting with the letter A and found 6 worlds that would keep your average person very happy and more that are pretty nice. Now you show me all the details for Trek that you keep asking me about.

Given how random moisture farmers in the ass end of nowhere were pissed enough at the Empire's policies to take up arms even before their families were murdered, I should think that percentage might be a bit higher than you might imagine.

I expect that you will prove this statement by doing some actual research. There are going to be a few thousand entries on wookiepedia to sort through so you'd best get started quickly.

Zero. Can't have been certain doom if it was averted.

Take it from the point of view of the average person who doesn't know that the Enterprise is about to pull some technobable out of its ass and save them. How many people died before the crew of the Enterprise had their adventure in the past and brought back the whales? Would you say that living through that would make life more or less ideal for all involved?

[Cesario]

Given how random moisture farmers in the ass end of nowhere were pissed enough at the Empire's policies to take up arms even before their families were murdered, I should think that percentage might be a bit higher than you might imagine.

I expect that you will prove this statement by doing some actual research. There are going to be a few thousand entries on wookiepedia to sort through so you'd best get started quickly.

Hm, how to prove that we have a random disaffected moisture farmer on the ass end of nowhere in the Empire interested in taking up arms against the state before the Empire comes in and murders his family? You know what, I conceed. There's never been anyone fitting that description in the history of Star Wars.

[S.L.Acker]

Given how random moisture farmers in the ass end of nowhere were pissed enough at the Empire's policies to take up arms even before their families were murdered, I should think that percentage might be a bit higher than you might imagine.

I expect that you will prove this statement by doing some actual research. There are going to be a few thousand entries on wookiepedia to sort through so you'd best get started quickly.

Hm, how to prove that we have a random disaffected moisture farmer on the ass end of nowhere in the Empire interested in taking up arms against the state before the Empire comes in and murders his family? You know what, I conceed. There's never been anyone fitting that description in the history of Star Wars.

Way to be ignorant, I'd say you're just playing the part, but given the shit we've seen from you so far I know this isn't an act. I was asking you to prove that the vast majority of people are frothing mad at the Empire. That's like saying a bunch of people in Europe are going to go crash things into American buildings because a few sexually frustrated religious nuts from a shit hole nation did. News flash, people living in the really shitty conditions will rise up because they have less to lose.

Also, Luke joined the rebellion by chance (or will of the force) most of his friends went to join the Empire where they got the exposure needed to realize they should switch sides. Even Han was an officer before seeing the slavery of the Wookies, had he remained ignorant of that I bet he's just some lazy officer taking bribes on the side.

[Cesario]

I expect that you will prove this statement by doing some actual research. There are going to be a few thousand entries on wookiepedia to sort through so you'd best get started quickly.

Hm, how to prove that we have a random disaffected moisture farmer on the ass end of nowhere in the Empire interested in taking up arms against the state before the Empire comes in and murders his family? You know what, I conceed. There's never been anyone fitting that description in the history of Star Wars.

Way to be ignorant, I'd say you're just playing the part, but given the shit we've seen from you so far I know this isn't an act. I was asking you to prove that the vast majority of people are frothing mad at the Empire. That's like saying a bunch of people in Europe are going to go crash things into American buildings because a few sexually frustrated religious nuts from a shit hole nation did. News flash, people living in the really shitty conditions will rise up because they have less to lose.

Also, Luke joined the rebellion by chance (or will of the force) most of his friends went to join the Empire where they got the exposure needed to realize they should switch sides. Even Han was an officer before seeing the slavery of the Wookies, had he remained ignorant of that I bet he's just some lazy officer taking bribes on the side.

No, no, I believe you. All hail the benevolence of the Emperor. Clearly that is the face of an honest and trustworthy soul who would never consider having a planet destroying death ray comissioned for blowing up inhabited worlds in his own empire. It's all rebel propoganda, I tells you.

In fact, there probably is no rebellion at all. Probably just one loser in his basement pretending to be the voice of freedom pumping out hateful propoganda. We should have him dragged out into the streets and shot, but our benevolent leader would never condone such an act. What a guy?

[S.L.Acker]

No, no, I believe you. All hail the benevolence of the Emperor. Clearly that is the face of an honest and trustworthy soul who would never consider having a planet destroying death ray comissioned for blowing up inhabited worlds in his own empire. It's all rebel propoganda, I tells you.

You're a useless twat, you ignore most of what was in my big reply to you and pick on a tiny point. You don't present clear evidence for your claims.

Can we flush this moron for trying to argue with a wall of ignorance and not providing any clear evidence of his claims?

I was asking you to prove that the vast majority of people are frothing mad at the Empire.

If the size of the rebellion isn't enough, there is the mass celebrations across several worlds witnessed at the end of ROTJ special edition.

Several worlds out of millions mean mass joy now? How about the worlds that even after the fall still didn't want to join with the New Republic? I guess these just don't fit your view of things so you ignore them just like evidence for Wars having better firepower.

[Batman]

The size of the Rebellion was such that they were a minor annoyance to the Empire militarily. Five years after the death of Palpatine, the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant were still roughly evenly matched. Vast majority of the population my kevlar-clad behind. As for the end of ROTJ SE, that was how many planets again? Out of somewhere upwards of a million low end?

[Cesario]

No, no, I believe you. All hail the benevolence of the Emperor. Clearly that is the face of an honest and trustworthy soul who would never consider having a planet destroying death ray comissioned for blowing up inhabited worlds in his own empire. It's all rebel propoganda, I tells you.

You're a useless twat, you ignore most of what was in my big reply to you and pick on a tiny point.

I am so sorry, but did you seriously expect your pretending not to recall our introduction to Luke Skywalker was going to fly?

You don't present clear evidence for your claims.

Like the claim that Luke Skywalker exists or that the Federation has weather control machines routinely in use to make their planets more pleasant to live on?

Can we flush this moron for trying to argue with a wall of ignorance and not providing any clear evidence of his claims?

I'm sure your buzz word makes you feel so much more secure in the fact that you're the superior debater. So superior that you have to have your oposition silenced so you can keep thinking you won.

Look, I'm not interested in your obsessive interest in talking about military readiness when the subject is domestic social and economic policy. I realize that clashes with your entire worldview where defense is everything, but you'll either adapt or keep whinging for me to be banned for offending your delicate little sensibilities.

I also find it hilarious that you're slamming me for not supporting my claims when you've wagered that you can find more worlds in Wars up to the Federation's standard than in Trek but found six stubs with no evidence they're anything of the sort. To distract from your total failure, you started demanding I talk about major worlds other than the major worlds we hear the most about in Trek, randomly throwing out vague asperations and demanding I disprove them, and most hilariously pretending to forget the opening scenes of A New Hope.

You are a master, I'll give you that. To think, I was taking you seriously for as long as I have.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's a government that blows planets up - not just a backwater, but an important world - to make a horrific example, and whose democratic systems are being rolled back, and whose high ranking military men openly discuss keeping systems in line with fear. How far fetched is it to conceive that lots of people living there would hate it? If people can get all upset about waterboarding and act-patriots, then why not fucking blowing up a planet?

Then again, a counter example can be had in that even in its last days, people in Nazi Germany still weren't openly rebelling and most of them still followed their psycho government. So, I guess you can use Nazis and Germans in Nazi Germany as an example of how the Empire's populace will behave in light of atrocifications and willingly ignoring such atrocifications or outright supporting atrocifications or passively complying with atrocifications.

[S.L.Acker]

I am so sorry, but did you seriously expect your pretending not to recall our introduction to Luke Skywalker was going to fly?

I bet you can find people that hate the US because their house got blown up to, does that mean the vast majority of the world's population want to see America's leaders put to the wall?

Like the claim that Luke Skywalker exists or that the Federation has weather control machines routinely in use to make their planets more pleasant to live on?

For every Luke there are millions of Joe Blows who could care less and enjoy watching the Imperial equivalent of Fox news. Also, you're bring out weather machines when Star Wars has them running to keep Coruscant pleasant and have terraformed barren worlds. Fuck a group of artists in Star Wars went on a trip and found a planet they liked and stayed using commonly available civilian technology. If I don't like the UFP can I relocate to a new world in a matter of a day or so?

I'm sure your buzz word makes you feel so much more secure in the fact that you're the superior debater. So superior that you have to have your oposition silenced so you can keep thinking you won.

I'm better than somebody that links to an entire webpage and then when called on it quotes the wrong passage on said page, or who posts a video but can't even time stamp it to illustrate his point. I don't really have to silence you when you're already failing to say anything of value, I just don't think this site should waste time on morons like you who can't even get the point of a simple flick like Avatar.

Look, I'm not interested in your obsessive interest in talking about military readiness when the subject is domestic social and economic policy. I realize that clashes with your entire worldview where defense is everything, but you'll either adapt or keep whinging for me to be banned for offending your delicate little sensibilities.

I asked you to show me a look at the smaller worlds of the UFP. The ones that are larger than colonies, but that aren't the big worlds. You have to actually show that most worlds included under the UFP flag are Utopias, you can't just point to a few of them and assume the rest are all the same.

I also find it hilarious that you're slamming me for not supporting my claims when you've wagered that you can find more worlds in Wars up to the Federation's standard than in Trek but found six stubs with no evidence they're anything of the sort. To distract from your total failure, you started demanding I talk about major worlds other than the major worlds we hear the most about in Trek, randomly throwing out vague asperations and demanding I disprove them, and most hilariously pretending to forget the opening scenes of A New Hope.

You are a master, I'll give you that. To think, I was taking you seriously for as long as I have.

You asked for evidence that simple doesn't exist yet fail to provide even the simplest evidence that shows that the UFP is a secure Utopia with everybody living in happiness. I at least took the time and, using the limited information available about the thousands of side planets in Star Wars, tried to prove my point. You haven't even started showing what worlds outside of the major systems look like in Trek.

ANH said the opposite. "They're more dangerous than you realize." -- "Dangerous to your starfleet, commander, not to this battlestation."

Note: the Rebel Alliance blew up that battlestation. Apparently they were indeed more dangerous than he realized.

I think your average duty post on a starship was fairly safe from the rebellion. Unless you think that most of those 25,000 IS's faced combat...

Obviously, somebody approved of the Imperial regime - probably the party elite at the top, and a good fraction of the military* - since there wasn't an open military coup outside the rebellion.

Doesn't change the fact that virtually every little person we ever see in the trilogy is anti-Empire. Maybe that's bias, but, Christ, the Empire blew up an entire planet over the rebellion. The Emperor had to dissolve the Imperial Senate entirely to stop sympathies from spreading to it. Those views aren't subject to the same bias.


* Of course, a lot of the military also took their training and immediately jumped ship to the Rebellion too!

We see backwater shit holes from the point of view of those involved with the rebellion... You still fail to understand that even most of Luke's friends left Tatooine to join the Imperial Navy. Also what fraction of the population of Coruscant did we actually see celebrating? If we're generous and give the celebration shot that we see 10,000 people, than we saw 0.00000001% of the world celebrating. I have to admit, that is a staggering majority akin to the numbers of people who defected from a military organization numbering in the high trillions of enlisted members.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Note: the Rebel Alliance blew up that battlestation. Apparently they were indeed more dangerous than he realized.

To be fair, the battlestation wasn't blown up by military might, but rather by a suicide run literally aided by magic. It's like saying Frodo destroying the ring in the heart of Mordor proves he's a military might that would give even Sauron's armies pause.

As for the end of ROTJ SE, that was how many planets again? Out of somewhere upwards of a million low end?

It was almost every planet we've ever actually seen on screen, including Coruscant itself. Are you alleging the third person omniscient narration gave a deliberately biased sample?

I dislike the SE ending. The very first time I saw that, my thoughts were immediately, 'Why the hell is Coruscant celebrating? What bad things happened there?' Personally I think the majority population of the world really didn't have that big an investment on who was in power, so long as things kept functioning, and the fireworks were just set off by the Senate and its supporters.

But more to the point: The Empire rose and fell in a matter of decades, it was incredibly unstable by its very nature, relying on a supernatural demagogue to keep things in line. The fact of the matter is the Empire's days, barring some Deus Ex Machina or something similar, would be numbered regardless of whether or not people are getting all googly-eyed over a theoretical UFP utopia on the other side of a wormhole. Until then, however, I'm pretty certain that general human apathy combined with intense militarism and a stranglehold on the propaganda apparatus would make UFP about as effective as the Rebellion: Basically being an annoyance while waiting for magic or Palpatine being an idiot to save the day.

[S.L.Acker]

Several worlds out of millions mean mass joy now?

Yes, unless you are alleging the sample was biased (not representative of the whole). In statistics, the size of the whole population doesn't actually matter.

We see, I think: Endor, Bespin, Tatooine, Naboo (including Jar Jar lol!), and Coruscant with mass celebrations in the streets and in the air.

That's the main planets represented out of all six movies.

Endor was a world firmly in rebel hands; Bespin was just recently occupied by Vader's personal unit; Tatooine was the home planet of some major rebel pilots; Naboo was neglected by the Empire at the start of the clone wars; and a small percentage of Coruscant. Why didn't we see any worlds that stayed firmly in Imperial hands after the fact and see how they were getting on? We didn't see them because the entire series was shot from a point of view that was sympathetic to the rebellion.

If I was given an option between going back to a failed system and trying independence, I'd take independence. Hell, even if I was given an option between the devil I know now and the devil from history mixed with a devil I don't know..... I might actually still take the devil I know.

Especially if the devil I know is willing to blow up my planet if I turn my back on him.

So the average planetary government would still rather deal with the crumbling Imperial Remnant than chance siding with people that are offering a better way of life. This doesn't support the position that the UFP simply existing will change anything for the average Imperial citizen.

[Cesario]

I am so sorry, but did you seriously expect your pretending not to recall our introduction to Luke Skywalker was going to fly?

I bet you can find people that hate the US because their house got blown up to, does that mean the vast majority of the world's population want to see America's leaders put to the wall?

From before his family was butchered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time:

"It's not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now."

Like the claim that Luke Skywalker exists or that the Federation has weather control machines routinely in use to make their planets more pleasant to live on?

For every Luke there are millions of Joe Blows who could care less and enjoy watching the Imperial equivalent of Fox news.

I'll obviously take your word for it, because only what I say requires evidence.

Also, you're bring out weather machines when Star Wars has them running to keep Coruscant pleasant and have terraformed barren worlds. Fuck a group of artists in Star Wars went on a trip and found a planet they liked and stayed using commonly available civilian technology. If I don't like the UFP can I relocate to a new world in a matter of a day or so?

I'll obviously take your word for it, because only what I say requires evidence.

I'm sure your buzz word makes you feel so much more secure in the fact that you're the superior debater. So superior that you have to have your oposition silenced so you can keep thinking you won.

I'm better than somebody that links to an entire webpage and then when called on it quotes the wrong passage on said page,

You get around this by not linking evidence at all. That does make you the superior debater, sir. I salute you.

or who posts a video but can't even time stamp it to illustrate his point.

Sure, this never happened:

You're right. It is entirely possible that the Legion of the Emperor's best troops were equiped with inferior weapons to Vader's raiding party in ANH. That would be a great way to excuse the piss-poor performance of these supposedly highly trained elites.

I mean, when the people on Vader's raiding party wanted to capture someone alive, they didn't bother with this "turn down the power settings" nonsense. They just used the stun setting, which used a radically different visual effect from the conventional blaster bolts.

Canonically, they're the same group: the 501st Legion. Also, I seem to remember the shot that wounded Leia missing and hitting the panel behind her.

4 minutes 30 seconds into this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BVEvvCR ... er&list=UL

That looked like a hit to me. One that should have taken her arm clean off given how the blaster shots were behaving when striking non-human targets like walls, trees, and floors.

I don't really have to silence you when you're already failing to say anything of value, I just don't think this site should waste time on morons like you who can't even get the point of a simple flick like Avatar.

There's a difference between not getting the point and not agreeing with the point. I should think someone who thinks the Evil Galactic Empire isn't such a bad place to live might understand that principle.

Look, I'm not interested in your obsessive interest in talking about military readiness when the subject is domestic social and economic policy. I realize that clashes with your entire worldview where defense is everything, but you'll either adapt or keep whinging for me to be banned for offending your delicate little sensibilities.

I asked you to show me a look at the smaller worlds of the UFP. The ones that are larger than colonies, but that aren't the big worlds.

What worlds are those, specifically?

You have to actually show that most worlds included under the UFP flag are Utopias, you can't just point to a few of them and assume the rest are all the same.

I can point to every world ever explored in depth in the cannon of the series. And that two is still more utopias than you've been able to dig up in Wars. Funny that, given your boasting about how scale makes it certain that you'll find more examples than I can.

I also find it hilarious that you're slamming me for not supporting my claims when you've wagered that you can find more worlds in Wars up to the Federation's standard than in Trek but found six stubs with no evidence they're anything of the sort. To distract from your total failure, you started demanding I talk about major worlds other than the major worlds we hear the most about in Trek, randomly throwing out vague asperations and demanding I disprove them, and most hilariously pretending to forget the opening scenes of A New Hope.

You are a master, I'll give you that. To think, I was taking you seriously for as long as I have.

You asked for evidence that simple doesn't exist

Le-gasp!

yet fail to provide even the simplest evidence that shows that the UFP is a secure Utopia with everybody living in happiness.

You're the one who added that "secure bit", idiot.

I at least took the time and, using the limited information available about the thousands of side planets in Star Wars, tried to prove my point.

And failed, proving that you were talking out of your ass before, and are now throwing out whatever random shit you can find to distract from that fact. And are still doing so, I might add.

You haven't even started showing what worlds outside of the major systems look like in Trek.

You haven't even posed a coherent question relating to that yet.

Here, I'll give you a hint as to how you call the Federation's utopia status into question. Bring up Tasha's background. It's the only thing you can do that will have any traction at all.

But more to the point: The Empire rose and fell in a matter of decades, it was incredibly unstable by its very nature, relying on a supernatural demagogue to keep things in line. The fact of the matter is the Empire's days, barring some Deus Ex Machina or something similar, would be numbered regardless of whether or not people are getting all googly-eyed over a theoretical UFP utopia on the other side of a wormhole. Until then, however, I'm pretty certain that general human apathy combined with intense militarism and a stranglehold on the propaganda apparatus would make UFP about as effective as the Rebellion: Basically being an annoyance while waiting for magic or Palpatine being an idiot to save the day.

With the added addendum that the Federation has a surprising amount of magic on hand.

[Batman]

The size of the Rebellion was such that they were a minor annoyance to the Empire militarily.

ANH said the opposite. "They're more dangerous than you realize." -- "Dangerous to your starfleet, commander, not to this battlestation."

Which-doesn't, actually. 'More dangerous than you realize' tells us exactly dick about how much of a threat they actually were, it just means the guy saying it thought they were more of a threat than the guy he was talking to. That doesn't mean they were actually a serious threat even if those guys were correct (we are talking dialogue here).

Note: the Rebel Alliance blew up that battlestation. Apparently they were indeed more dangerous than he realized.

Obviously. As that essentially happened via magic, I fail to see how it has any bearing on the general military nonthreat status of the Rebellion.

Five years after the death of Palpatine, the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant were still roughly evenly matched.

Obviously, somebody approved of the Imperial regime - probably the party elite at the top, and a good fraction of the military - since there wasn't an open military coup outside the rebellion.
Doesn't change the fact that virtually every little person we ever see in the trilogy is anti-Empire.

Um-as per the OT, Leia is, and so's Luke on account of having the hots for her. Han and Chewie don't give a damn, neither do Owen and Beru, nor the people in the Cantina. In fact, nobody outside the Rebellion does until the final celebration in the SE. People on Tattoine-don't care, at least one of them actually collaborated with the Empire. Bespin-none other than Lando himself collaborated with the Empire. Where are all those little people that are anti-Empire in the OT?

As for the end of ROTJ SE, that was how many planets again? Out of somewhere upwards of a million low end?

It was almost every planet we've ever actually seen on screen, including Coruscant itself. Are you alleging the third person omniscient narration gave a deliberately biased sample?[/quote]
I'm alleging that a single figure sample out of an Empire that has bare bones minimum one million planets does ]not represent 'the vast majority of the population[/i].You are the one saying that was a biased sample. All I'm saying is the sample base is too small to base any conclusions on.

[Cesario]

Um-as per the OT, Leia is, and so's Luke on account of having the hots for her. Han and Chewie don't give a damn, neither do Owen and Beru, nor the people in the Cantina. In fact, nobody outside the Rebellion does until the final celebration in the SE. People on Tattoine-don't care, at least one of them actually collaborated with the Empire. Bespin-none other than Lando himself collaborated with the Empire. Where are all those little people that are anti-Empire in the OT?

Great examples there, Bats.

So Luke, who expressed hatrid for the Empire before they butchered his parents was only anti-Empire to impress a girl. Right.
Lando was obviously not working to save his own skin when Darth Vader showed up, but really believed in the Empire until he saw that they were going to welch on their deal.
And we know everything about the political opinions of everyone in the Cantina scene.

Great examples.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Just going by this, I think it's pretty safe to say we were welcomed with open arms in Iraq.

[Batman]

Great examples there, Bats.
So Luke, who expressed hatrid for the Empire before they butchered his parents was only anti-Empire to impress a girl. Right.
Lando was obviously not working to save his own skin when Darth Vader showed up, but really believed in the Empire until he saw that they were going to welch on their deal.
And we know everything about the political opinions of everyone in the Cantina scene.
Great examples.

I'm not the one who claimed 'virtually every minor character in the OT was anti-Empire' you know.

[Cesario]

Great examples there, Bats.
So Luke, who expressed hatrid for the Empire before they butchered his parents was only anti-Empire to impress a girl. Right.
Lando was obviously not working to save his own skin when Darth Vader showed up, but really believed in the Empire until he saw that they were going to welch on their deal.
And we know everything about the political opinions of everyone in the Cantina scene.
Great examples.

I'm not the one who claimed 'virtually every minor character in the OT was anti-Empire' you know.

Doesn't make your choices any less hilarious.

[Batman]

Everyone who doesn't understand basic statistics plz exit the thread now. Thx.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_ ... ation_size

Bye then.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

However, the situation in the Empire actually holds a lot of analogies to the US with a slightly more brutal bent: Going by what we see in the films, it seems the 'average joe' either is apathetic to the Empire (Yeah, I hear bad stories, and Imperial inspections are annoying, but I've still got a job and home, so whatever), or locked into feeling helpless (They're bad, but what can I do? I'd support the Rebellion, but I'm pretty sure they're going to be crushed any day now, and I don't want to die. Supporting my family comes before politics, sorry). Luke expresses the latter pretty damn well. Again, look at the US and North Korea, one a more extreme example than the other, but both with populaces mostly pacified and apathetic to their governments' atrocities through a combination of propaganda and keeping their basic needs minimally satisfied (more of the former than the latter in NK's case).

[Cesario]

Again, look at the US and North Korea, one a more extreme example than the other, but both with populaces mostly pacified and apathetic to their governments' atrocities through a combination of propaganda and keeping their basic needs minimally satisfied (more of the former than the latter in NK's case).

And look at how North Korea is managing it. They're accomplishing it by not letting their population know that there are better ways of life that exist out there. That's why the Federation's a threat.

[S.L.Acker]

I am so sorry, but did you seriously expect your pretending not to recall our introduction to Luke Skywalker was going to fly?

I bet you can find people that hate the US because their house got blown up to, does that mean the vast majority of the world's population want to see America's leaders put to the wall?

From before his family was butchered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time:

"It's not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now."

This was after his friends had left, joined the Empire, and then defected to the rebellion. I would say that his friends fighting for the rebellion was what swayed him if the people of Tatooine actually knew what the Empire was all about than people wouldn't have joined up at the start before sending word home about what was actually going on.

I'll obviously take your word for it, because only what I say requires evidence.

Look at the worlds we see that didn't leave the Empire after the DSII blew up. Or how about the fact that the rebellion was always strapped for a safe place to hide, was so short on munitions that most of the fighters attacking the first DS didn't even have a full load of warheads

I'll obviously take your word for it, because only what I say requires evidence.

The solar reflectors of Coruscant ought to be common knowledge and even if it isn't the info is a quick search away.

Also:

Akana was the dry and barren fourth world within the Elrood system, located on the Outer Rim of the galaxy in the sector of the same name. The surface itself only boasted life in the microbial range, although a colony of artists maintained a small, sealed outpost there. Its only satellite, Akanala was a source of inspiration for those artists.

Though the mere fact that hyperdrive is so fast means that you can go find some little patch of space to setup whatever you like in.

You get around this by not linking evidence at all. That does make you the superior debater, sir. I salute you.

I gave planet names along with the source I was taking them from. If you punch any of those planet names into Wookiepedia you'll find the article I grabbed my info from. I figured that much would be obvious.

There's a difference between not getting the point and not agreeing with the point. I should think someone who thinks the Evil Galactic Empire isn't such a bad place to live might understand that principle.

I don't like American politics either but I don't deny that there are nice cities to be found in the US. You seem to think that because the guy at the top is nuts that he makes life shitty for everybody. This isn't the case, a few places prospered under Palpatine and many more so no change either way.

What worlds are those, specifically?

Any world that isn't Earth, Vulcan, or Andoria. I've made a case for there being nice places in Imperial space, but you can't show anything about this supposed Utopia.

I can point to every world ever explored in depth in the cannon of the series. And that two is still more utopias than you've been able to dig up in Wars. Funny that, given your boasting about how scale makes it certain that you'll find more examples than I can.

I don't class Vulcan as a Utopia, in fact I think you average human wouldn't enjoy living there very much what with the lack of emotion and the shitty climate; the same goes for Andoria as it's a ball of ice. I don't even think that Earth has been shown as a Utopia if only because people aren't free to leave and personal spaceship ownership is demonstrably low. So please define Utopia and then make an argument for the UFP being one.

You're the one who added that "secure bit", idiot.

Yes, because a Utopia that isn't secure from external threats is hardly a Utopia. A hypothetical island nation with a limited military and a ton of natural resources is only going to stay that way until somebody wants their resources. As we have seen Earth has been directly attacked with a fair bit of regularity and in many cases the damage was fairly widespread. We also see that they have next to no defense, and limited early detection of incoming threats. If you face even an intermittent threat to your way of life you're not living in any sort of Utopia.

And failed, proving that you were talking out of your ass before, and are now throwing out whatever random shit you can find to distract from that fact. And are still doing so, I might add.

You brought up a Utopia and thus far have failed to define what you mean by the term, let alone showing evidence that supports your position.

You haven't even posed a coherent question relating to that yet.

You have to define your position first. Define the term Utopia and then show how the UFP meets those conditions.

For every Luke there are millions of Joe Blows who could care less and enjoy watching the Imperial equivalent of Fox news.

Prove it.

The fact that there were still people loyal to the Empire, the fact that the rebellion was underfunded and hiding on shitty backwater worlds. If they actually had that much support they could have set up shop on a major world.

Most places in the Empire don't need to wait in breadlines and are free to travel so your comparison doesn't work in the slightest.

Nah, instead they just get burned to death on the whim of a passing imperial stormtrooper.

And free to travel....... free to travel where? The Empire doesn't need a Berlin Wall simply because there is no West Berlin/Germany for people to flee to! Anywhere people go, the Empire can follow.

Except that we see plenty of cases where worlds have been hidden from the eyes of the government. There is also nothing stopping you from setting up a space station out in the middle of some random system and not being bothered by virtue of being too small. Given the speed of hyperdrive you still wouldn't be out of range to go visit a major world.

[Cesario]

I bet you can find people that hate the US because their house got blown up to, does that mean the vast majority of the world's population want to see America's leaders put to the wall?

From before his family was butchered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time:

"It's not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now."

This was after his friends had left, joined the Empire, and then defected to the rebellion. I would say that his friends fighting for the rebellion was what swayed him if the people of Tatooine actually knew what the Empire was all about than people wouldn't have joined up at the start before sending word home about what was actually going on.

You know your government has problems when being in the military makes you more likely to join an armed insurrection.

I'll obviously take your word for it, because only what I say requires evidence.

Look at the worlds we see that didn't leave the Empire after the DSII blew up. Or how about the fact that the rebellion was always strapped for a safe place to hide, was so short on munitions that most of the fighters attacking the first DS didn't even have a full load of warheads

I'll obviously take your word for it, because only what I say requires evidence.

I'll obviously take your word for it, because only what I say requires evidence.

The solar reflectors of Coruscant ought to be common knowledge and even if it isn't the info is a quick search away.

Not like the existence of Luke Skywalker. No one knows about that shit, but solar reflectors of Coruscant everyone knows about.

Also:

Akana was the dry and barren fourth world within the Elrood system, located on the Outer Rim of the galaxy in the sector of the same name. The surface itself only boasted life in the microbial range, although a colony of artists maintained a small, sealed outpost there. Its only satellite, Akanala was a source of inspiration for those artists.

Yep, that's evidence that a handful of artists successfully teraformed a world alright.

Though the mere fact that hyperdrive is so fast means that you can go find some little patch of space to setup whatever you like in.

Actually, it means the opposite. It means there's no fronteer for you to escape to that isn't a day's drive away from the bright center of the universe.

You get around this by not linking evidence at all. That does make you the superior debater, sir. I salute you.

I gave planet names along with the source I was taking them from. If you punch any of those planet names into Wookiepedia you'll find the article I grabbed my info from. I figured that much would be obvious.

You mean the stubs that don't prove what you claimed you were going to prove with them?

There's a difference between not getting the point and not agreeing with the point. I should think someone who thinks the Evil Galactic Empire isn't such a bad place to live might understand that principle.

I don't like American politics either but I don't deny that there are nice cities to be found in the US. You seem to think that because the guy at the top is nuts that he makes life shitty for everybody. This isn't the case, a few places prospered under Palpatine and many more so no change either way.

You don't understand my reasoning at all. I don't think that the Empire is going to lack utopian planets because Palpetine is a dick. I think the Empire is going to lack utopian planets because Star Wars isn't trying to present a utopian setting.

What worlds are those, specifically?

Any world that isn't Earth, Vulcan, or Andoria. I've made a case for there being nice places in Imperial space, but you can't show anything about this supposed Utopia.

You've pulled a handful of stubs form Wookiepedia and called it a case for "nice places", when you were supposed to go find utopian planets. Meanwhile, you've been given three from Trek and whinged about not having every planet doccumented to distract from your failure.

I can point to every world ever explored in depth in the cannon of the series. And that two is still more utopias than you've been able to dig up in Wars. Funny that, given your boasting about how scale makes it certain that you'll find more examples than I can.

I don't class Vulcan as a Utopia, in fact I think you average human wouldn't enjoy living there very much what with the lack of emotion and the shitty climate; the same goes for Andoria as it's a ball of ice.

Good thing those planets weren't supposed to be utopias for humans, then wasn't it? Another big difference between the Federation and the Empire. Humans aren't the only people in the Federation that anyone gives a shit about.

I don't even think that Earth has been shown as a Utopia if only because people aren't free to leave

Name one person who wanted to leave earth that wasn't allowed to do so. One.

and personal spaceship ownership is demonstrably low.

Demonstrably? Great. Demonstrate it.

Though I will give you props for not falling into the trap of claiming it's nonexistent.

So please define Utopia and then make an argument for the UFP being one.

But you know what a utopia is. That's why you claimed you could prove that there were more utopian worlds in the Empire than in the Federation. You remember doing that, right?

You're the one who added that "secure bit", idiot.

Yes, because a Utopia that isn't secure from external threats is hardly a Utopia. A hypothetical island nation with a limited military and a ton of natural resources is only going to stay that way until somebody wants their resources. As we have seen Earth has been directly attacked with a fair bit of regularity and in many cases the damage was fairly widespread. We also see that they have next to no defense, and limited early detection of incoming threats. If you face even an intermittent threat to your way of life you're not living in any sort of Utopia.

Still not doing so great on that whole "we're talking about domestic policy, not military" angle, I see.

I'm curious, what makes you think the Federation is unusually resource-rich?

And failed, proving that you were talking out of your ass before, and are now throwing out whatever random shit you can find to distract from that fact. And are still doing so, I might add.

You brought up a Utopia and thus far have failed to define what you mean by the term, let alone showing evidence that supports your position.

You were the one who made a claim that you could prove the Empire has more utopian planets than the Federation. I assumed that meant you knew what utopian meant. Guess you expect to be able to prove things you don't even understand yourself. And given your approach to providing evidence, that isn't at all a surprising assumption on your part.

You haven't even posed a coherent question relating to that yet.

You have to define your position first. Define the term Utopia and then show how the UFP meets those conditions.

That isn't even related to your previous rantings, so I'm just going to assume you're still in the "throw out everything and hope no one notices I failed to prove my statement about utopian worlds in the Empire" mode.

For every Luke there are millions of Joe Blows who could care less and enjoy watching the Imperial equivalent of Fox news.

Prove it.

The fact that there were still people loyal to the Empire,

Wow, the existence of even one person loyal to the Empire means a million loyalists for every disaffected individual who hasn't yet had his family murdered by the Empire. What stellar logic.

the fact that the rebellion was underfunded and hiding on shitty backwater worlds. If they actually had that much support they could have set up shop on a major world.

Yeah, it's not like Leia's world of Alderon's top of the line planetary shields indicate they were expecting trouble or anything. And that wasn't a major world or anything anyway.

Most places in the Empire don't need to wait in breadlines and are free to travel so your comparison doesn't work in the slightest.

Nah, instead they just get burned to death on the whim of a passing imperial stormtrooper.

And free to travel....... free to travel where? The Empire doesn't need a Berlin Wall simply because there is no West Berlin/Germany for people to flee to! Anywhere people go, the Empire can follow.

Except that we see plenty of cases where worlds have been hidden from the eyes of the government.

You mean the "if it's not in our archive, it doesn't exist" folks?

There is also nothing stopping you from setting up a space station out in the middle of some random system and not being bothered by virtue of being too small.

Yeah, worked great for Lando, didn't it?

Given the speed of hyperdrive you still wouldn't be out of range to go visit a major world.

Which is kind of the problem if you're trying to get away from it all.

[Darth Tedious]

I'm so glad Risa finally got mentioned...
Such a fine example of a near-perfect utopian world, and not a major UFP player. Out of both galaxies, it's my first choice for a holiday destination.
Surprised Turkana IV wasn't brought up at length (though it was alluded to by Cesario). It really is the best example of the UFP being far from perfect. Sure, it was no longer a member world, but how was it allowed to get so bad?

Either way, any well-populated world in the UFP that we've seen (with the exception of Turkana IV) did seem to be fairly nice, and (as DXIII pointed out) there were some damn nice places that didn't get to join.

I must agree though, that external threats do keep the UFP from being a true utopia. Though we measure niceness in socio-econic terms and not by military readiness/might, the possibility of your world being threatened by external forces is a socio-economic factor.

It is statistically possible that there are more 'nice worlds for holidays' in the GFFA (simply by virtue of scale) than the number of nice worlds in the UFP (hell, even if we include nice non-member worlds, there's a lot less planets in the AQ than the GFFA).
The worlds we see at the end of RotJ are a pretty odd sample. As has been discussed, Endor was a joint Rebel/Ewok victory celebration (quite biased), Bespin had only very recently and in shitty circumstances been occupied by the Empire (somewhat biased). Naboo was not only neglected during the Clone Wars, but afterwards forcibly re-governed by the Empire (BF2), making it another somewhat biased case.
Coruscant is a confusing (and almost statistically worthless) case, as has been pointed out.
But Tatooine?? What in the fuck were they celebrating? "YAY, THE HUTTS ARE STILL IN CHARGE! WE CAN GO ABOUT OUR BUSINESS!"

But it is very important to remember that what we are shown in both franchises is a biased sample. We don't see a lot of peaceful or nice worlds in SW, because it's Star WARS. The nice places are not where the action is. The story is largely shown from the Rebellion's viewpoint, and we won't see any worlds like Carida, because the Rebels aren't welcome there and can't got there.
Likewise, in ST, we often see shitty little half-established colonies being [attacked by aliens/having trouble with tech/dying of weird space disease/having issues with weird space phenomena/etc.] because !SURPRISE! they're the sorts of places that a starship gets sent to on interesting missions. We only get to see places like Risa when the crew are on shore leave (and something interesting happens, like Picard going on an archeological dig).

[S.L.Acker]

You know your government has problems when being in the military makes you more likely to join an armed insurrection.

I think you mean being exposed to the outside world. Tatooine isn't exactly going to have top rate access to current galactic events. Hyperwave transponders aren't cheap and unlike in the core you're a long way from the nearest broadcast station.

I'll obviously take your word for it, because only what I say requires evidence.

I'm pretty sure the fact that the rebels are under supplied isn't something that I need to cite. The fact that they were using outdated fighters like Y-Wings is one example of them being under equipped. I think them being low on munitions is from the novelization, I'll have to look that up later. Them hiding in ruins on some uncivilized forest moon, and then fleeing to a shittastic ice planet should be proof that they weren't big enough to set up shop on even the worst of actually inhabited planets. The EU also makes it painfully obvious that the Empire was still a large scale threat even years after Endor.

Not like the existence of Luke Skywalker. No one knows about that shit, but solar reflectors of Coruscant everyone knows about.

Where did I ever say that Luke didn't exist? I said that it wasn't proof that everybody hates the Empire.

Yep, that's evidence that a handful of artists successfully teraformed a world alright.

Where did I say that they terraformed anything? I said that you were free to go anywhere you want given the freedom of hyperdrive, given the level of technology setting up a habitat should be trivial. If you really want to be free you can always make your own space station in the middle of some godforsaken system as long as it has some asteroids you can stay there effectively forever.

Actually, it means the opposite. It means there's no fronteer for you to escape to that isn't a day's drive away from the bright center of the universe.

We can fly over any point on the planet in a day right now, yet you can still get to a place where people won't be able to find you with ease. It's the same thing here, you pick a place and go there. Sure somebody could find you, but what are the odds of somebody going back to a system that had a probe sent to it ages ago and was never colonized because it lacks anything of exceptional value.

You mean the stubs that don't prove what you claimed you were going to prove with them?

You've never defined Utopia so for all I know those could fit the bill perfectly.

You don't understand my reasoning at all. I don't think that the Empire is going to lack utopian planets because Palpetine is a dick. I think the Empire is going to lack utopian planets because Star Wars isn't trying to present a utopian setting.

So you think that because we see a civil war from the side of the rebels that there couldn't possibly be anything as nice as the UFP tucked away in there? Out of a million systems if even 0.1% are as nice as the UFP they have more people living in luxury than we see in Trek.

You've pulled a handful of stubs form Wookiepedia and called it a case for "nice places", when you were supposed to go find utopian planets. Meanwhile, you've been given three from Trek and whinged about not having every planet doccumented to distract from your failure.

You brought up the term Utopia, now define it.

Good thing those planets weren't supposed to be utopias for humans, then wasn't it? Another big difference between the Federation and the Empire. Humans aren't the only people in the Federation that anyone gives a shit about.

So if I want a Utopia my options are Erath, Earth, or Earth... Wow, those are some great options.

Name one person who wanted to leave earth that wasn't allowed to do so. One.

Show me a personal spacecraft, or any orbital traffic at all over Earth. In fact how many civilian ships of any sort do we see in UFP space? If you want to explore it seems to be star fleet or bust and given the few star ships we see there is no way they can be meeting demand.

Demonstrably? Great. Demonstrate it.

Look at any shot of Earth, how much space or air traffic do we see around it? How many times is the Enterprise required to evacuate a colony, shouldn't they have their own ship if personal spaceships are common? I can't prove a negative though, so why don't you show me these ships.

But you know what a utopia is. That's why you claimed you could prove that there were more utopian worlds in the Empire than in the Federation. You remember doing that, right?

You introduced the term, so it's on you to define it. Given that everybody is going to have a different view on what a perfect society is a simple dictionary definition - which you have also failed to provide - won't do.

Still not doing so great on that whole "we're talking about domestic policy, not military" angle, I see.

I'm curious, what makes you think the Federation is unusually resource-rich?

I never said it was, I simply used that as an example of something that might seem like a Utopia but isn't. The fact that shit walks through the entire federation and arrives at Earth without them being ready shows that they aren't secure enough to meet my definition of a Utopia. A Utopia must be stable and you must not be at risk from monster of the week style attacks. How many times do we see bad shit happen to UFP colonies and space stations? Does entire starship crews going missing, and colonies failing meet your definition of a Utopia?

You were the one who made a claim that you could prove the Empire has more utopian planets than the Federation. I assumed that meant you knew what utopian meant. Guess you expect to be able to prove things you don't even understand yourself. And given your approach to providing evidence, that isn't at all a surprising assumption on your part.

Our personal definition of a Utopia obviously differs, so please define the term. Unless you do so this debate is impossible.

That isn't even related to your previous rantings, so I'm just going to assume you're still in the "throw out everything and hope no one notices I failed to prove my statement about utopian worlds in the Empire" mode.

I've argued that the society in a Brave New World is a Utopia, so I think I can find a place where the majority are happy and call it good enough.

Wow, the existence of even one person loyal to the Empire means a million loyalists for every disaffected individual who hasn't yet had his family murdered by the Empire. What stellar logic.

Look at the real world, does the majority of it hate the Evil Empire (US)? Do the majority of American citizens want to see the government fall? Heck, because it could be argued that the US isn't as bad as the Empire I'll set the bar at 20%. You need to find solid proof that 20% of all Americans are disaffected enough that they would either leave or take major steps to significantly alter the way the country is run at the first signs of a better alternative. I ask this because it is what you are claiming the UFP would do to the Empire.

Yeah, it's not like Leia's world of Alderon's top of the line planetary shields indicate they were expecting trouble or anything. And that wasn't a major world or anything anyway.

I've never heard of Alderon... Do you perhaps mean Alderaan? Also a lot of major worlds have planetary shields, Coruscant has two or more systems each able to provide complete planetary coverage.

You mean the "if it's not in our archive, it doesn't exist" folks?

No, I mean examples of corporations hiding the existence of resource rich worlds. I'll provide evidence, but I didn't bookmark every interesting tidbit I came across while I was scanning the info in those 130 planets.

Yeah, worked great for Lando, didn't it?

That was a major mining operation providing a not insignificant portion of the galaxy's tibanna gas output. You could do a little bit of fact checking before posting.

Which is kind of the problem if you're trying to get away from it all.

No, as I explained above all you have to do is head to a spot people aren't likely to go looking. Just because the government could fly a chopper out to some random spot in the Canadian wilderness doesn't mean that just because you set up a small house there the government will come and bother you.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Endor might not be a valid example as that's more like mission accomplished, but that still leaves Bespin, Tatooine, Naboo, and Coruscant being shown to us.

Maybe the average joe wasn't willing to risk his life with anti-empire action, but if they didn't have anti-empire sentiment, how would you explain that ending?

All I can think of is some kind of bias on the part of the narrator, which might be valid - it did follow the rebellion, and the end showed places we knew from the rest of the journey. But still, I don't buy it; many of those locations were pretty coincidental; the heroes might have passed through them but not much more.

The point that I was trying to make is that propaganda can make things seem well-supported when they're not. How many average Fox News viewers fully believed the sentiment behind the 'Mission Accomplished' photo? I'm guessing a fairly good percentage, I'm pretty sure there's a hardcore 20% that still do to this day.

Like I said earlier with the Coruscant footage, that was just one section of a world-sized city. It could be a quick PR rally pulled together by the newly reformed Senate, and of course we're not going to see the billions of others who don't really give a shit because they simply didn't come out to join the party. Or how many of the celebrants are there because, hey, it's a party, free booze for all! Or maybe some are just attention whores who want a chance to be on camera with all the fireworks.

Bespin I understand completely, they just recently had an Imperial crackdown and I'm sure they're more than a little bitter about that. Naboo... fuck Naboo, it didn't even exist in the OT and anyone who didn't want the PT would be going, "What the hell is that place?" Same with Coruscant, I guess, but that's splitting hairs.

But I don't really have any way to back up any of that. Like I said before, I really dislike the SE ending and disqualify it from my personal canon of cool. Yub Dub!