Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-22 07:46pm

Turkana 4 is never stated to be a Federation world - in any way shape or form the best we have is that its an earth colony, the same as new Sydney which im being told (though still waiting on a quote) isnt a Fed world.

Note on Jake - he was shocked beyond belief that the Dominion (A strict facist government by most accounts) would censor his work, spouting someting about freedom of the press therefore censorship in the Federation news media must be rare (many countries have secrecy acts, the UK for one which also has a state owned news service - not indicative of governmental censorship on a widescale).

I also remember that Jake published a story about Siskos opinion on the Dominion which wasnt favourable - the Fed news service ran the story although Sisko raked him over the coals for it, we also know Jake tried to get a story about the proposed Ferengi-Fed alliance even though Nog said it was secret - he obviously thought that if he got the info the story wouldnt be crushed) (Jake also got to do frontline reporting on at least two occassions - A klingon invasion and he was on the Defiant during the final push for Cardassia Prime (sent there specifically if I recall correctly by the news service)

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-10-22 10:53pm

TheDarkling wrote:Turkana 4 is never stated to be a Federation world - in any way shape or form the best we have is that its an earth colony, the same as new Sydney which im being told (though still waiting on a quote) isnt a Fed world.

A half-point on that score. Turkana IV was indeed referred to as an Earth colony. However, this does not answer the question as to how information on the collapse of the colony's government and social order has essentially been suppressed and for a good fifteen years, dating from the time Tasha escaped from there. Or why neither Earth nor the Federation have lifted so much as a finger to restore order.

Note on Jake - he was shocked beyond belief that the Dominion (A strict facist government by most accounts) would censor his work, spouting someting about freedom of the press therefore censorship in the Federation news media must be rare

All that tells us is that Jake encountered a society which practised a much tigher and more overt form of censorship than he was used to. I am constrained to point out that even subjects of a dictatorship can imagine themselves as living in a country which is the apex of freedom without actually having any real freedoms to speak of.

(many countries have secrecy acts, the UK for one which also has a state owned news service - not indicative of governmental censorship on a widescale).

Invalid analogy. For a start, the BBC is not quite a state news service in the same way as the Soviet TASS agency or the Libyian JANA agency. And secondly, if the UK can invoke a secrets act and suppress information which is protected by the First Amendment in our own country, then it is practising widescale censorship —as they are presently doing in regards to information about Northern Ireland. A little bit of censorship is like being a little bit pregnant.

I also remember that Jake published a story about Siskos opinion on the Dominion which wasnt favourable - the Fed news service ran the story although Sisko raked him over the coals for it, we also know Jake tried to get a story about the proposed Ferengi-Fed alliance even though Nog said it was secret - he obviously thought that if he got the info the story wouldnt be crushed) (Jake also got to do frontline reporting on at least two occassions - A klingon invasion and he was on the Defiant during the final push for Cardassia Prime (sent there specifically if I recall correctly by the news service)

And even press organs under dictatorships enjoy the occasional publication of controversial (re: government unapproved) material for a time —until the hammer falls when the papers go too far. And they'll send their people to the front lines to cover the glorious victory of their forces and the heroism of the troops. The fact remains that all we see of the "free" press in the Federation is the Federation News Service. We don't see competing newspapers or news networks or other competing journalistic organs.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-23 03:10am

Evidence that Turkana 4 had information about it suppressed as for the Feds not getting nivolved - maybe they werent asked, if they werent asked they cant get involved due to the prime directive.

All we do know is that prior to the government going south Feds news agents stopped reporting the possibilities are - Feds news people werent allowed into the planet by the government, the Feds seeing the writing on the wall evacuated all their nationals including reporters or finally Fed news men did remain in the area but once the comms went down they had no way to get their stories out.
I think the second is the most likely.

The fact that the news media censors information must be known to the general populace since covering up a plague for an extended lenght of time would require complete segregation of the planet (both physical and communications access) forever and stopping anyone asking questions about why a planet suddenly disapeared - if the Feds had that ability to control information how did many Fed citizens find out about the Marquis and even join up?

The BBC is state owned however - there is nothing to say the Fed news service isnt similiar to it, the UK can invoke secrecy on military secrets (its unrealistic that a government wont hide information).

An example of the BBC supressing info regarding Northeam Ireland? it would have a hard time with other news ervices about and this is the crux of the matter without competing news services the Feds could control the flow of information - unless there are checks and balances in place within the News service to prevent this - huge coverups would be very differcult given the amount of personal freedoms the Federation citizens have.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-10-23 04:32am

TheDarkling wrote: Evidence that Turkana 4 had information about it suppressed as for the Feds not getting nivolved - maybe they werent asked, if they werent asked they cant get involved due to the prime directive.

The prime directive only applies to Starfleet. We have examples of other Federation citizens not being bound by it. If the Federation had a free press with civilian reporters, the prime directive would not stop them from reporting the news. This does not explain how they are able to supress a story of this magnitude.

TheDarkling wrote: All we do know is that prior to the government going south Feds news agents stopped reporting the possibilities are - Feds news people werent allowed into the planet by the government, the Feds seeing the writing on the wall evacuated all their nationals including reporters or finally Fed news men did remain in the area but once the comms went down they had no way to get their stories out.
I think the second is the most likely.

Again, this does not expalin this. In a crisis here on Earth, even when the U.S. embassy advises all American citizens in the country in question that they should leave for their own safety, it advises them; it does not round them up and make them go. If they want to stay, they are free to do so. The U.S. is a free country, and that means American citizens are free to be fools if they wish.

Also, even in such a case as this, there are always reporters who stay to cover the events. They trust to their press credentials to shield them from harm. Sometimes this protects them; sometimes (as in the case of poor Daniel Pearl) it doesn't. Reporters seldom let a little danger get in the way of their getting a good story. If Federation reporters did not stay, it's because they were not allowed to do so.

TheDarkling wrote: The fact that the news media censors information must be known to the general populace since covering up a plague for an extended lenght of time would require complete segregation of the planet (both physical and communications access) forever and stopping anyone asking questions about why a planet suddenly disapeared - if the Feds had that ability to control information how did many Fed citizens find out about the Marquis and even join up?

Even restricted and oppressed societies have undergrounds. There was a German resistance movement all during World War II. Hell, one of its top men was Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, chief of the Abwehr, the German intelligence service (he was executed after the plot to assassinate Hitler failed). Nazi Germany had tight control of the media, and the press wasn't remotely free, but there was still this resistance movement, always recruiting more members.

TheDarkling wrote: The BBC is state owned however - there is nothing to say the Fed news service isnt similiar to it, the UK can invoke secrecy on military secrets (its unrealistic that a government wont hide information).

Protecting classified information is one thing. Censoring the news is something else again. We restrict classified information in this country, yet we still have a free press. Exercising outright control of the media does not a free press make, and this is what the Federation appears to do. BBC may be owned by the British government, however there are others news services in Britain (e.g. Reuters, among others), which are independent. Britain does not exercise complete control over the press. We see no evidence of competing news services in the Federation, however.

TheDarkling wrote: An example of the BBC supressing info regarding Northeam Ireland? it would have a hard time with other news ervices about and this is the crux of the matter without competing news services the Feds could control the flow of information - unless there are checks and balances in place within the News service to prevent this - huge coverups would be very differcult given the amount of personal freedoms the Federation citizens have.

Personal freedoms? Like the ability to own your own transport? The ability to invest and engage in free trade? The ability to travel freely both inside and outside Federation space? There are reasons to believe Federation citizens are not quite as free as they seem.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-23 07:19am

Three examples of people owning their own transporters have been shown and each has been dismissed without proper cause (except possibly the Hansens) as either illegal activity or the fact that a person was a scientist.

Reporters do often stay in wars zones however this planet was going south the entire planet was going to be destroyed and all comms cut off - great use a reporter has if they cant REPORT back.

Reporters leaving a none Federation planet that orded them to leave on pain of death planet seems perfectly reasonable (especially when their ability to report back or even get home ever was about to be cut off)

Theres enough evidence to support the idea of the press leaving the planet without being forced to (by the Feds at least) and no evidence presented thus far that the story was quashed.

Also the planet may have denied Fed citizens access (as they did with SF) telling them that any trespassors would be shot - reporters wouldnt go into a death sentence.

Im also still waiting for evidence that the story was supressed - Prove dont state.

The main problem here is that everyone is trying to compare modern earth to their galaxy - it doesnt work, Shuttles dont equate to cars, a transporter does (everyone has access there), a starship capable of going world to world is much closer to being a private plane or boat - how often are these seen by everyday folk (almost never in the case of planes but boats are somewhat more common), its also not as if examples of private craft havent been shown (thats right put you hands by you sides instead of in front of you eyes - now do you see?).

The main thing that seems to be apparent is that Earth doesnt seem to have a capitol market - private property etc still exist (and money exists almost everywhere but earth).

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-23 07:21am

Opps transporters should equal transport.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2002-10-23 07:46am

TheDarkling wrote: All we do know is that prior to the government going south Feds news agents stopped reporting the possibilities are - Feds news people werent allowed into the planet by the government, the Feds seeing the writing on the wall evacuated all their nationals including reporters or finally Fed news men did remain in the area but once the comms went down they had no way to get their stories out. I think the second is the most likely.

What your observation actually tells me is that any Federation press agency is dependent on Starfleet for transport. They don't have their own ships that can take them into orbit over a place like Turkana IV to observe events.

TheDarkling wrote: The fact that the news media censors information must be known to the general populace since covering up a plague for an extended lenght of time would require complete segregation of the planet (both physical and communications access) forever and stopping anyone asking questions about why a planet suddenly disapeared - if the Feds had that ability to control information how did many Fed citizens find out about the Marquis and even join up?

Actually, we don't really know the extent of the Cor Caroli V plague or even the size of the colony. All we know is that Starfleet was able to keep it a secret. If Cor Caroli V was a Federation colony like Rana IV, then it probably didn't have any interstellar ships of its own. Quarantining the planet would therefore be easy for Starfleet. If Starfleet also controls the communication network (and the only Federation communication relay we've ever seen was run by Starfleet), then a communication blackout would be equally easy.

After breaking away from the Federation, the Maquis were able to obtain their own ships, weapons, and communication systems. Their resources were obviously small compared to those of the Federation, but they were still sufficient to make them a serious nuisance to the Cardassians.

I'm not an authority on the BBC, so I can't speak to that issue much. However, we've never seen a civilian news source do an expose on Federation corruption or illegal activity, even though we know that some events does occur in Starfleet ("Pegasus" entirely revolved around illegal Starfleet activity).

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-23 08:05am

We also never see the Federation news service speak of the Borg incident or the Klingon war - guess they were covered up too huh? Just because we dont see it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

My observation says no such thing - if tyhey simply observe from orbit they wont see alot since all the actiuon goes on underground - the government ordered everyone off their planet - the Fed news service obeyed - whats so complicated about that - still waiting for the evidence of the story being quashed (count 4).

On the facts about the Cor Caroli V plague we dont have many details - is it a Federation world, a member world, colony, hell it could be a klingon colony.

We also dont know why this plague would be secret, the problem here is that when theres news from 1000's of worlds and starships that could be months from the nearest reporter is it any surprise news gets lost along the way (the plague may only have been secret while it was being cured for some reason), we know that TV is almost lost (and all of Jakes reporters are in written form) yet Siskos father seems to indicate a news service similiar to standard TV.

The federation doesnt have instant communication between worlds (it can takes weeks - months for subspace signals to travel) so at the edge of federation space the news is already well out of date - this puts us closer to news traveling in the 1700-1800 (before cable was laid for communications) by way of carriage or boats(in those days news couldnt exactly keep upto date with anything less than very local news (the local few countries)).

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2002-10-23 10:06am

TheDarkling wrote:We also never see the Federation news service speak of the Borg incident or the Klingon war - guess they were covered up too huh? Just because we dont see it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Now that you mention it, there's no evidence that those events were ever publicized. Don't try to reverse the burden of proof. You need to prove that something did happen, not that it didn't happen. We have no evidence that any public news agency covered the Klingon Civil War or the Borg invasions. At the same time, however, we don't have evidence that Starfleet actively covered them up.

TheDarkling wrote: My observation says no such thing - if they simply observe from orbit they wont see alot since all the actiuon goes on underground - the government ordered everyone off their planet - the Fed news service obeyed - whats so complicated about that - still waiting for the evidence of the story being quashed (count 4).

I'm not quite sure why anyone brought up Turkana IV. We don't really know if there was ever any news about it. Nonetheless, if there are independent civilian news agencies in the Federation, we would expect them to have their own starships, even if they're just runabouts or interstellar shuttles, and we would expect them to have transporters on those shuttles. Failing that, we would at least expect to see independent transport operators who can take them places that Starfleet might not want them to go.

TheDarkling wrote: On the facts about the Cor Caroli V plague we dont have many details - is it a Federation world, a member world, colony, hell it could be a klingon colony.

All that is irrelevant. Starfleet considered the information dangerous enough to keep it secret, and they had no problem doing so. That means no communications got from Cor Caroli V to civilian news outlets in the Federation, nor did any refugees get a chance to talk to any civilian Federation news agency.

TheDarkling wrote: We also dont know why this plague would be secret, the problem here is that when theres news from 1000's of worlds and starships that could be months from the nearest reporter is it any surprise news gets lost along the way (the plague may only have been secret while it was being cured for some reason), we know that TV is almost lost (and all of Jakes reporters are in written form) yet Siskos father seems to indicate a news service similiar to standard TV.

The Cor Caroli V plague wasn't just an event lost in the obscurity of news from hundreds of worlds (and there's no evidence that the Federation has thousands of worlds, by the way); Starfleet actively suppressed that information, and because Picard knew of that event, he was able to expose an alien impostor.

TheDarkling wrote: The federation doesnt have instant communication between worlds (it can takes weeks - months for subspace signals to travel) so at the edge of federation space the news is already well out of date - this puts us closer to news traveling in the 1700-1800 (before cable was laid for communications) by way of carriage or boats(in those days news couldnt exactly keep upto date with anything less than very local news (the local few countries)).

Getting a message all the way across the Federation only takes two weeks, not months. News might be slow to reach some places, but significant events will spread all the way across the Federation in two weeks or less if there are active news services spreading information independently.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-23 10:28am

No im afraid you are wrong - we know the Feds have a news agency it has been stated this news agency covers things up - this must be proved by those who made the claim not vice versa I dont have to prove very news story which aired.

We also dont nkow if the Fed news service has ship but once again the Turkanas told the feds to get the hell out and to stay out - the Fed news service would irresponable to send people in (especially on something of such minor concern).

We dont know how long it was kept secret for - a few days? a month, a year? it could have simply been under wraps while it was contined (the Feds asked rthe news service to sit on the story for a few days for some reason - which may have been important).

You are technically correct - we know the Feds had a minium of 1000 worlds 100 years ago, the information may have be kept off the news net for a very good reason - this doesnt imply strong arming if the plague was short in duration and the world a very minor one.

This also brings me to another point - do people actually care that planet x in the butt end of nowhere has got a plague outbreak? sure its big news on that planet (possibly we dont know how many cases were involved as far as I know) even that sector but in all honesty people on earth probably dont give a dam know major intergalatic news they are interested in but apart from that the news probably gets sent in text doc to the news net and unless someone actually has relatives on planet x they wont look for info on it.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2002-10-23 11:20am

TheDarkling wrote:No im afraid you are wrong - we know the Feds have a news agency it has been stated this news agency covers things up - this must be proved by those who made the claim not vice versa I dont have to prove very news story which aired.

I am not questioning the existence of a Federation news service; I am questioning it's independence. The Cor Caroli V plague is the only incident I know of in TNG that Starfleet actively covered up.

TheDarkling wrote: We also dont nkow if the Fed news service has ship but once again the Turkanas told the feds to get the hell out and to stay out - the Fed news service would irresponable to send people in (especially on something of such minor concern).

Don't be silly. Free press agencies send reporters into hazardous areas all the time, at least one reporter in Afghanistan lost his life that way. Even now, there are American reporters in Bagdad. The Turkana IV incident would actually be important news, as it would show Federation citizens how their government reacts to such incidents.

TheDarkling wrote: We dont know how long it was kept secret for - a few days? a month, a year? it could have simply been under wraps while it was contined (the Feds asked rthe news service to sit on the story for a few days for some reason - which may have been important).

No, we don't know how long they kept the plague secret, but we do know that they did so successfully. The situation implied that the incident had been secret for some time; weeks or months I would surmise from the context.

TheDarkling wrote: You are technically correct - we know the Feds had a minium of 1000 worlds 100 years ago, the information may have be kept off the news net for a very good reason - this doesnt imply strong arming if the plague was short in duration and the world a very minor one.

Plagues are always a problem since refugees can spread them to other places. It would only be a minor problem if the risk of refugees escaping quarantine was minor.

TheDarkling wrote: This also brings me to another point - do people actually care that planet x in the butt end of nowhere has got a plague outbreak? sure its big news on that planet (possibly we dont know how many cases were involved as far as I know) even that sector but in all honesty people on earth probably dont give a dam know major intergalatic news they are interested in but apart from that the news probably gets sent in text doc to the news net and unless someone actually has relatives on planet x they wont look for info on it.

Again, the news is telling the population how the Federation reacts in a crisis. It tells them how the Federation might behave if a plague broke out on their planet. Don't dismiss the importance of such knowledge.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-23 11:42am

Plagues dont break out in the Feds heartland though - just like developed countries dont get the sweeping plagues of the 3rd world (I imagine plagues as a whole to be less than a big problem).

As for how the Feds react to a crisis - simple they aid medically and when an independant nation tells them to get the hell out they get the hell out (imagine if Iraq said tomorrow that western reporters had 5 days to leave before any remaining ones would be put to death) - the Turkana incident wasnt dangerous it was lost, the government ordered the Feds to withdraw and that anyone setting foot on the place would be killed, the Federation respecting the prime directive and its pacifist stance did as they ordered/requested, also with no comms the reporters were of no use whatsoever.

Im also still waiting for any evidence that the Turkana story was respressed.

I have explained why the reporters left and asked for evidence that anything was withheld - without that the case for Turkana 4 showing bad practice falls flat.

As for the length of the cover up - theres no way to know although it was very recent (the Ent is leaving orbit after getting rid of the plague at the start of the episode) therefore we could be talking days or weeks.

As for the risk of the disease spreading - we have no knowledge of what medical checks the Feds require before they allow you on planet (the transporter detects almost any plagues that they know of cutting down risk of infection to near nil (especially to the overly tech centric feds)).

Also Cor Caroli 5 may have had no private vessels there, hell it may have just be a SF outpost for all we know involving 30 or 40 people or a research facility (possibly accounting for its classified nature).

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-23 11:57am

The most damning evidence of Federation socialism/communism ect... is from the first season's finale. One of the humans rescued from a cryogenic ship was apparently a wealthy man in his day. He was explaining to Picard that he had a lot of money in investments and that he was probably a very rich man (I think that is the jist of the statement he made to Picard, at any rate he was talking about his extensive investments) Picard looked at him in utter horror and said that Earth doesn't operate that way anymore. The very idea of investing money and expecting a profit was so horrible that Picard had trouble controlling himself. That to me proves that at least Earth has done away with a traditional capitalist economy and has embraced at least some communist doctrines wholeheartedly.

Vapthorne · Post by **Vapthorne** » 2002-10-23 12:20pm

"As for the risk of the disease spreading - we have no knowledge of what medical checks the Feds require before they allow you on planet (the transporter detects almost any plagues that they know of cutting down risk of infection to near nil (especially to the overly tech centric feds)). "

The same medical checks that allow people to be baked in radition and inject with a vaccine afterwards, or walk on a new planet without space suit, not knowing if the air is breathable. Overly tech centric, but not pracitically safe.

"Also Cor Caroli 5 may have had no private vessels there, hell it may have just be a SF outpost for all we know involving 30 or 40 people or a research facility (possibly accounting for its classified nature)."

Um... where's the proof? You made the claim. Or are you just trying to throw in some shadow of a doubt so you can cling to the believe that the Federation can 'do no evil'. Therefore, then the claim could be made that CC5 could be a major federation world near the size of Earth. I mean, there are no private vessel around Earth, which fits your speculation.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-10-23 12:22pm

Commander LeoRo wrote:The most damning evidence of Federation socialism/communism ect... is from the first season's finale. One of the humans rescued from a cryogenic ship was apparently a wealthy man in his day. He was explaining to Picard that he had a lot of money in investments and that he was probably a very rich man (I think that is the jist of the statement he made to Picard, at any rate he was talking about his extensive investments) Picard looked at him in utter horror and said that Earth doesn't operate that way anymore. The very idea of investing money and expecting a profit was so horrible that Picard had trouble controlling himself. That to me proves that at least Earth has done away with a traditional capitalist economy and has embraced at least some communist doctrines wholeheartedly.

Though it is an interesting piece of evidence supporting UFP communism, Picard did not look at him in horror, and the very idea did not bother Picard at all......

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-23 12:22pm

Vapthorne: use the quote feature. It's there for a reason

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2002-10-23 12:35pm

TheDarkling wrote:Plagues dont break out in the Feds heartland though - just like developed countries dont get the sweeping plagues of the 3rd world (I imagine plagues as a whole to be less than a big problem).

You do realize that the AIDS pandemic originated in the 3rd world, don't you? It started in Africa.

Modern countries can potentially isolate plague outbreaks by denying quarantining the source. That's how many of the major diseases affecting humans have been eliminated except for laboratory samples. Have you not been paying attention to the government concern over the possibility of a smallpox outbreak due to terrorist activity?

Plagues are a major concern today, and they would be a major concern for the Federation unless spread of the plague due to the mobility of carriers is a very low possibility (i.e., interstellar transportation is very limited).

TheDarkling wrote: As for how the Feds react to a crisis - simple they aid medically and when an independant nation tells them to get the hell out they get the hell out (imagine if Iraq said tomorrow that western reporters had 5 days to leave before any remaining ones would be put to death)

In such a case, I would expect most Western reporters to retreat as far as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, or Turkey. Some of the more intrepid (and reckless) reporters would attempt to enter Iraq secretly and continue reporting.

The Federation may have a policy of butting out when a local government tells them to leave, but the investigative reporters of a free press are far more intrusive.

TheDarkling wrote: - the Turkana incident wasnt dangerous it was lost, the government ordered the Feds to withdraw and that anyone setting foot on the place would be killed, the Federation respecting the prime directive and its pacifist stance did as they ordered/requested, also with no comms the reporters were of no use whatsoever.

Please. The Federation has orbital-range communication devices the size of a wristwatch. Independent reporters would have no trouble relaying news from the surface.

TheDarkling wrote: Im also still waiting for any evidence that the Turkana story was respressed.

I'm not the person claiming that it was. I'm just refuting the various comments you have made regarding why a free press would not be interested in such events or wouldn't be able to report on them.

TheDarkling wrote: I have explained why the reporters left and asked for evidence that anything was withheld - without that the case for Turkana 4 showing bad practice falls flat.

Your excuse for reporters leaving is lame. Real reporters build their reputations by taking risks. In a society with a free press, news of political developments on Turkana IV would continue to come out of the system and the Enterprise's crew would not have been surprised by the new balance of power they discovered in "Legacy".

TheDarkling wrote: As for the length of the cover up - theres no way to know although it was very recent (the Ent is leaving orbit after getting rid of the plague at the start of the episode) therefore we could be talking days or weeks.

Please clarify that. Are you saying that the opening of "Allegiance" specified that the Enterprise had just left Cor Caroli V?

TheDarkling wrote: As for the risk of the disease spreading - we have no knowledge of what medical checks the Feds require before they allow you on planet (the transporter detects almost any plagues that they know of cutting down risk of infection to near nil (especially to the overly tech centric feds)).

Don't make me laugh! The transporter's record of disease detection and prevention is abysmal.

TheDarkling wrote: Also Cor Caroli 5 may have had no private vessels there, hell it may have just be a SF outpost for all we know involving 30 or 40 people or a research facility (possibly accounting for its classified nature).

Thirty or forty people getting sick hardly constitutes a plague. As for the colony/planet having no private vessels... we're back to the issue of strictly controlled transportation systems.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-23 02:40pm

Yes I do realise where AIDS came from but dispatching a few medi techs wont cure AIDS unlike most illnesses the Feds come up against.

As for interstella transportation being low - im not arguing that (although I disagree) we do however know they believe the transporter protects them from most known disease (or at least detects such disease) - this is a fact and cant be disputed, another fact is there over reliance on their tech which also adds to their faith in transporters.

PLagues are not a major concern currently except for an odd one or two we cant cure - the Feds can detect and cure almost all diseases they have come across.

Yes most westermn reporters would retreat - some may remain but lets not forget the timid nature of the vast majority of the feds citizens, there was no coming back from that world and anyone staying there would have been stupid to a degree even Janeway never displayed.

Turkana 4 was a world among 1000's (including other races planets) - why would reports from there be of such great interest do you know the political situation of some village in the middle of the congo?

Yes as Allegiance opens the Ent-D is in orbit of Cor Caroli 5.

the typical the transport is evil response, I said known disease not unknown disease - find me an example where a known disease isnt picked up by it.

What constitutes a plague depends upon you defintion but a plague can simply be an outbreak of a disease (or even just a disease can be refered to as a plague).

As for the Feds doing no evil - im not of that opinion at all they have done things that are wrong I just dont twist all of canon to point away from the utopiam ideal that was the creators stated intention (kinda like saying the GE wasnt evil - saying such a thing is just dumb.....).

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2002-10-23 03:26pm

TheDarkling wrote:Yes I do realise where AIDS came from but dispatching a few medi techs wont cure AIDS unlike most illnesses the Feds come up against.

We saw several incurable diseases in TNG alone. The Federation can cure many diseases than we can't, but they are also exposed to many more potential disease sources because of space travel. The threat of disease has not gone away in Star Trek.

TheDarkling wrote: Yes most westermn reporters would retreat - some may remain but lets not forget the timid nature of the vast majority of the feds citizens, there was no coming back from that world and anyone staying there would have been stupid to a degree even Janeway never displayed.

Many Federation citizens may be timid, but news organizations don't recruit that sort of person. Even with very limited sources, modern news organizations manage to get some information even out of very repressive states.

TheDarkling wrote: Turkana 4 was a world among 1000's (including other races planets) - why would reports from there be of such great interest do you know the political situation of some village in the middle of the congo?

As it happens, I can do a quick search and get news of a hostage crisis in a theater in Russia, a dispute over fishing rights in Mexico, negotiations between rebels and the government of Ivory Coast, the search for terrorist suspects in Indonesia, a crocodile attack on a woman in Australia, the death of an opposition lawmaker in Zimbabwe, the release of an opposition leader in Malawi, the success of a rebel attack in Congo, the return to business of a newspaper in Uganda, a bombing in Nepal, and police raids in Colombia. Much of this news isn't of great interest to me, but it could easily be of great interest to some people (like people who have relatives there, people in neighboring areas, or companies thinking of doing business in the area).

TheDarkling wrote: Yes as Allegiance opens the Ent-D is in orbit of Cor Caroli 5.

the typical the transport is evil response, I said known disease not unknown disease - find me an example where a known disease isnt picked up by it.

You are assuming that everyone leaving a planet with such an outbreak would go through a transporter with updated biofilters. What about people fleeing in ships that can land on the surface? What about people fleeing before the biofilter is in place? In the modern world, our government publicizes disease trouble spots so that travellers will avoid them or at least take precautions if forced to visit them.

TheDarkling wrote: What constitutes a plague depends upon you defintion but a plague can simply be an outbreak of a disease (or even just a disease can be refered to as a plague).

Just for giggles, I looked up the Webster's definition of plague.

1 a : a disastrous evil or affliction : CALAMITY b : a destructively numerous influx <a plague of locusts>
2 a : an epidemic disease causing a high rate of mortality : PESTILENCE b : a virulent contagious febrile disease that is caused by a bacterium (Yersinia pestis) and that occurs in bubonic, pneumonic, and septicemic forms -- called also black death
3 a : a cause of irritation : NUISANCE b : a sudden unwelcome outbreak

Based on these definitions, I see little reason for Starfleet to refer to a disease as a "plague" if it only affected a few dozen people at an insignficant colony or outpost.

TheDarkling wrote: As for the Feds doing no evil - im not of that opinion at all they have done things that are wrong I just dont twist all of canon to point away from the utopiam ideal that was the creators stated intention (kinda like saying the GE wasnt evil - saying such a thing is just dumb.....).

I'm not saying the Federation is evil, either. I'm saying the Federation is communist. There are still plenty of people in the world who think communism is a good thing. I personally think that it works pretty well on a small scale, but it's a poor way to run a national economy (or a planetary or interstellar economy, for that matter).

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-23 04:00pm

Ok then incurable diseases on the table please.

If the population is almost 100% timid you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, also it only takes the head of the network, or foreign affairs, even the guy in charge of news for that sector to reel the reporters from going there.

So the answer to my question was no then

.
How many of those were local news reporting setups instead of major news networks?

Could you tell me the type of super market they are building in my local town?
Could you tell me what sort of business license has been revoked due to this type business over running a particular street?
Both of these stories appear in my local newspaper but they arent available to the world at large (the Feds have lower interconectivity compared to us both due to the time delays involved and the sheer weight of info that must be sifted).

Ah but everyone leaving a planet would have to file a flight plan (we know this for sure) so when they arrive at earth Customs and Imigration will tag them as possible carries and put them through decon.
Normal disease spots maybe publised but this one could easily have be odd.

I also looked it up but wasnt anal (silence you perverts

) enough to post it

.

However

Main Entry: 1ep·i·dem·ic
Pronunciation: "e-p&-'de-mik
Function: adjective
Etymology: French épidémique, from Middle French, from epidemie, n., epidemic, from Late Latin epidemia, from Greek epidEmia visit, epidemic, from epidEmos visiting, epidemic, from epi- + dEmos people -- more at DEMAGOGUE
Date: 1603
1 : affecting or tending to affect a disproportionately large number of individuals within a population, community, or region at the same time <typhoid was epidemic>
2 a : excessively prevalent b : CONTAGIOUS 4 <epidemic laughter>
3 : of, relating to, or constituting an epidemic <the practice had reached epidemic proportions>

Number one states a large number of a specific community - 30 out of 40 fits thise profile.

Also if the disease usually has a 100% mortality rate (without treatment) it qulaifies, in fact according to to the definition you provided if SF found the outbreak annoying it qualifies as a plague.

We just dont know enough about why the plague was declared secret, for how long it was secret or how big of a news story it would have been.

I am simply stating that covering up this plague cant be infered as an evil act and may have had a very good reason behind it - this also doesnt show censorhip beyond what exists in many western couintries today.

As for the Feds being communist - Im not sure but I wuold peg Earth as being so, this however does mean the Feds are evil many people use faulty views of communism to infer communism = evil but as Wong has stated the real indication is an investment market apart from that the governing system could vary greatly and still be communist.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-10-23 11:44pm

TheDorkling wrote: Three examples of people owning their own transporters have been shown and each has been dismissed without proper cause (except possibly the Hansens) as either illegal activity or the fact that a person was a scientist.

Mind repeating them. I'll look myself later, but right now I don't have the time to go searching through 23 pages of posts. I got the one of Soong, but what are the other two?

But even so, this is what? Three examples of private treansports in a combined total of twenty-one seasons of footage!?! As I said earlier, Babylon 5 managed to show a hell of a lot more than that in a mere five. Star Wars managed it with a mere fifteen or so hours. Even if private transports are not completely unheard of in the Federation, at the least they appear to be so rare that they are quite thoroughly out of reach of the vast majority of private citizens. This would simply not be the case in a democratic society. Even the repressive Galactic Empire, ruled by a being who is almost the very personification of evil seems to allow its citizens more presonal freedom than this.

TheDorkling wrote: Reporters do often stay in wars zones however this planet was going south the entire planet was going to be destroyed and all comms cut off - great use a reporter has if they cant REPORT back.

Reporters leaving a none Federation planet that orded them to leave on pain of death planet seems perfectly reasonable (especially when their ability to report back or even get home ever was about to be cut off)

Theres enough evidence to support the idea of the press leaving the planet without being forced to (by the Feds at least) and no evidence presented thus far that the story was quashed.

Also the planet may have denied Fed citizens access (as they did with SF) telling them that any trespassors would be shot - reporters wouldnt go into a death sentence.

Im also still waiting for evidence that the story was supressed - Prove dont state.

Ted C already answered these points as thoroughly as I could. And as with him, I'm not the one who made the assertion in any case.

TheDorkling wrote: The main problem here is that everyone is trying to compare modern earth to their galaxy - it doesnt work, Shuttles dont equate to cars, a transporter does (everyone has access there), a starship capable of going world to world is much closer to being a private plane or boat - how often are these seen by everyday folk (almost never in the case of planes but boats are somewhat more common), its also not as if examples of private craft havent been shown (thats right put you hands by you sides instead of in front of you eyes - now do you see?).

I never had them in front of my eyes Slappy, which I why I see only one (or possibly three) privately owned transports in well over five hundred hours of film footage, while shows with a small fraction of that amount of screen time show such things on a fairly regular basis.

And who says modern earth doesn't compare closely enough to their galaxy? In Star Wars, Han Solo does not seem very rich at all, yet he owns one of if not the fastest ship in his galaxy, and there are numerous instances of private citizens in SW owning their own ships, both from Canon sources and official. In fact, according to Luke's comment in ANH while he and Ben were negotiating with Han for the price of passage to Alderaan, an interstellar transport is something not at all difficult to purchase, and 10,000 (the name of the monetary units was never mentioned) was apparently almost enough to buy a ship. Han certainly expected them to be able to raise that amount of money.

You Trekkies keep trying to argue that the Federation is on a techonological par with the Empire (some of you even try to claim it's ahead), why wouldn't transports be as easily available to Federation citizens if that were the case?

TheDorkling wrote: The main thing that seems to be apparent is that Earth doesnt seem to have a capitol market - private property etc still exist (and money exists almost everywhere but earth).

Then why don't we ever see a Federation currency in the post-TOS ST series? There's no evidence of one. In over five hundred hours of footage there's no evidence of one. And if it existed, then it's for damn sure the Enterprise crew would have had to use it at one of their numerous port calls within Federation space. When people do get paid it's invariably in things like Latinum or bio-mimetic gel, or other barter commodities. How could the capitol world of the Federation possibly use a different economic system than the rest of the nation? That would be like going to Washington D.C. and being unable to spend dollars. Sorry, but the idea is simply ludicrous.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-24 03:10am

We dont often see Federation civilian life so we dont know how rare personal transports are, however they are there which is the point (once again private planes are rare for individuals to have).

There are many other instancesof people owning their own ships although a number of them were criminals its never stated that owning a ship is a criminal offence.

Also DS9 often played host to manu Federation ships (cargo ships) we dont know if these are privately owned or state owned.

SW managed to show it because it was chock full of civilians (one who was a smuggler) so Im not that shockled.

When did B5 show us privates vessels by the way? most people on B5 caught public transport as I recall, the other ships could easily be state owned or owned by large companies.

This part I dont get I say comparing RL earth to ST earth is dodgy and you launch off talking about SW??, also who cares about the technology involved thats not the issue.

We hear about member worlds having currency several times also Latinum works as a currnecy for the Ferengi.

You basically admit that personal transports are avalable on smoe scale, that private property exists and that some Fed worlds have a currency - those are the points I was making.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-24 03:29am

You hardly see any civilian traffic over Earth.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-24 06:54am

That doesnt say alot really the earths a big place and ships arent.

We know that at least some public transports exist aswell as private ones - yet we dont see them, not that we have seen earth that often and when we do its usually a military installation which should have an exclusion zone around it.

Vapthorne · Post by **Vapthorne** » 2002-10-24 12:02pm

TheDarkling wrote:As for the Feds doing no evil - im not of that opinion at all they have done things that are wrong I just dont twist all of canon to point away from the utopiam ideal that was the creators stated intention (kinda like saying the GE wasnt evil - saying such a thing is just dumb.....).

I don't know. Everything negative claim that's valis you seem to shrug off and makes excuses that it's all in the noble intentions of the Federation.

The thing about good intentions is that the road to Hell is paved with them. The creator's intention of making the Federation a utopia does mean it actually is a utopia. You need to realize that people might not know how to properly make their intentions into a plausable reality. Communism, as to Marx's intention, was supposed to be an ideal utopia; however the major of real world example fall flat for various reasons. The Federation is no exception.

Also, another thing is that one man's paradise is another man's hell. Some people here find lots of errorous contradictions in the Federation that makes them wonder if their humane perfection is a mere public face. Many of us wouldn't even consider the Federation an utopia, even if it is not as boldly two-faced. If you want to believe, that's fine, it's your opinion. However, I recommend that you decide that conclusion on your own judgement, rather than just let the writers spoon feed their doctrine.