Defending the Federation(RAR)

[Darth Tedious]

I still wonder why they ditched the much more practical AT-TE for this "elephant".

It really was mostly because the AT-AT looks more scary/badarsed.
I guess when you're in the Empire's position, you can afford to make silly choices like that, supported by the fact that the AT-AT does have a phenomenal service record in spite of all its inherent flaws.

Out of universe (not that it matters, just in case anyone's interested), the whole design was because Uncle George wanted something besides tanks. He decided to give it long legs so speeders could fly underneath it, giving the battle a 'dramatic, 3D feel' or somesuch.

While I'd agree that the underside is quite underdefended, getting beneath an AT-AT is easier said than done. Just try running across a battlefield with that thing firing at you. Luke was only under one because he crashed his snowspeeder there.

[Connor MacLeod]

Or, the Imperial military dudes in charge of acquisitions are fucking retards, greedy, or possibly some combination of silly/absurd traits. Things don't always have to follow a "100% practical" style of logic to make sense, and the AT-AT simply doesn't make much sense without either incredibly convoluted logic, or by assuming it is the product of (to paraphrase Sea Skimmer) pork barrel military spending type things.

[Darth Tedious]

I fail to see what's so convoluted about "We totally outnumber and outgun the shit out of our enemies, let's choose the scarier looking vehicle instead of the more practical one."
Note: I wouldn't suggest practical logic was ever involved.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, while every battle the AT-AT was used in was a victory for the Empire- they all would have been Imperial victories anyway.

[Metahive]

I guess when you're in the Empire's position, you can afford to make silly choices like that, supported by the fact that the AT-AT does have a phenomenal service record in spite of all its inherent flaws.

Against under-equipped guerillas, sure. If that thing had been put in service during the Clone Wars however I'm not so sure it could have maintained its spotless record.

While I'd agree that the underside is quite underdefended, getting beneath an AT-AT is easier said than done. Just try running across a battlefield with that thing firing at you. Luke was only under one because he crashed his snowspeeder there.

If the enemy is courteous enough to only ever attack from the front. If the walker gets flanked however its SOL due to the slow turning rate and its many blind spots. I mean its setup is pretty much asking for it.

[Darth Tedious]

Against under-equipped guerillas, sure. If that thing had been put in service during the Clone Wars however I'm not so sure it could have maintained its spotless record.

I couldn't agree more.

If the enemy is courteous enough to only ever attack from the front. If the walker gets flanked however its SOL due to the slow turning rate and its many blind spots. I mean its setup is pretty much asking for it.

True (though it's usually the Empire doing the attacking, which gives them the option of deploying a safe distance from the enemy). Support units could also help to counter this problem- even at Hoth there was at least one AT-ST running around.

The silliest thing about this whole line of conversation is that AT-ATs were initially brought up as an alleged example of Palpatine being an idiot! Did he even personally approve the design?

[Purple]

The one role where I can see the AT-AT excelling is patrolling. Seriously, what is more scary and a better mission statement than having a huge walker block out the sun and just walking between buildings menacingly. My bet is that this was the sales pitch they used. It's not like it would be the first weapon ever to come out of a good sales pitch and no performance.

[TithonusSyndrome]

As a quick aside on the topic of the AT-AT, can anyone explain why that lone AT-AT on Endor seen when Vader disembarks his shuttle did not participate in the planetary battle, not even as a last-ditch reserve when Chewbacca turned the battle for the rebels with his stolen AT-ST? I doubt the Imperial commander would've given a shit about the trees in the way when his need became serious enough.

[Metahive]

I guess they wanted to be somewhat more stealthy than marching a massive, lumbering elephant through dense forest would have allowed to surprise the Rebel commando.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I'm not talking about their initial surrounding of the rebel force, I'm asking why they didn't redeploy it there once the rebels had resisted and turned the battle in their favor. Did it all happen too fast? Are the front and rear entrances that far apart? And so on?

[Panzersharkcat]

Probably too fast. The battle was fairly short. Even at 60 km/h, it would take a while to get from one side of the entrance to the other. Plus, horrible turning abilities.

[Darth Yoshi]

Well, the AT-AT's puprose is supposedly to transport troops into combat zones and either needing high platforms to load/unlead the thing or forcing it crouch down (can it even bend its legs that far?) seems impractical to me. I still wonder why they ditched the much more practical AT-TE for this "elephant".

To be fair, dropping troops while you're still on the outskirts of an enemy base is pointless, and AT-ATs are relatively slow enough that by the time you reach the base proper everything even remotely threatening should have been shot full of holes anyway, so opening the sides of the AT-AT to drop troops may not have been considered impractical.

I'm not talking about their initial surrounding of the rebel force, I'm asking why they didn't redeploy it there once the rebels had resisted and turned the battle in their favor. Did it all happen too fast? Are the front and rear entrances that far apart? And so on?

The area around the back door seemed to have a lot more foliage than around the main base. It may not have been possible for the AT-AT to thread its way through the trees to reach the battle in time, and blasting the trees down would be energy intensive enough that the AT-AT may not have combat effective even if it make it.

[Metahive]

To be fair, dropping troops while you're still on the outskirts of an enemy base is pointless[...]

Not so, underground bases or dense urban territory among other things would preclude an AT-AT from proceeding further and necessitate the unloading of the troopers before all resistance is broken.

[Darth Yoshi]

Um, if you're at an entrance to an underground facility or have reached an urban center, that is no longer "outskirts." By the time you get that far in, anything that's got enough power to threaten an AT-AT and is in a position to do so will have already been flattened, if not by the AT-AT itself then by artillery or air support. If everything that could shoot at you is dead, then you're not really vulnerable.

[Metahive]

Let me explain it this way: if the deployment zone is completely safe you don't really need an armored transport, especially not one as slow and lumbering as the AT-AT. Armored transports are for "hot", contested deployment zones where the enemy is still able to mount attacks. The Empire ditched the "MBT" AT-TE and the LAAT and combined them into one vehicle that isn't really suited for either purpose.

[Darth Tedious]

Uh dude, Hoth was an underground base, and they used a safe deployment zone there (granted, it was out of necessity), and they flattened all major resistance before deploying troops...

It's pretty much the exact situation you're arguing against.

[Metahive]

Yes, and we already established that the Rebels are under-equipped guerilleros so it doesn't matter. Safe for the shield the basis wasn't exactly heavily fortified, not when compared to some of the strongholds in the Clone Wars, see episodes like "Landing at Point Rain" for deployment in contested areas.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yes, and we already established that the Rebels are under-equipped guerilleros so it doesn't matter.

But what other kind of enemy would the Empire fight? If it orks against these underequipped guerillas, and that's who they are fighting, why is it a problem?

For the Empire to plan it's military around fighting an equally-quipped foe, they would basically have to assume an extragalactic invasion was coming (Yes, I know the whispers in the EU about Palpatine knowing about the Vong, but I'm ignoring that).

[Metahive]

If it orks against these underequipped guerillas, and that's who they are fighting, why is it a problem?

A correction, it worked against under-equipped guerilleros who were also largely taken by surprise and forced to take the imperial attack head-on. That won't be always the case, guerillas are particularly prone to lay traps and ambushes where the poor maneuverability and slow speed of the AT-AT is a liability.

For the Empire to plan it's military around fighting an equally-quipped foe, they would basically have to assume an extragalactic invasion was coming (Yes, I know the whispers in the EU about Palpatine knowing about the Vong, but I'm ignoring that).

The Empire was already fracturing while he was still alive (I say only Grand Admiral Zaarin) so a probable foe would be a mutinous imperial army that knows of its own equipment's weaknesses. The Empire is incredibly big and the local moffs and governors possess plenty of leeway and therefore lots of opportunities to contest the central rule already.

As strong and capable Palpatine was, his Empire was not made to last, with him alive or not.

[Darth Tedious]

A correction, it worked against under-equipped guerilleros who were also largely taken by surprise and forced to take the imperial attack head-on. That won't be always the case, guerillas are particularly prone to lay traps and ambushes where the poor maneuverability and slow speed of the AT-AT is a liability.

The tow cable harpoons were pretty much the best strategy the Rebel Scum ever came up with. Though, as we saw at Hoth, it's far from 100% effective (how many speeders were out there(?), and only one made a successful attack using the method).

For the most part the Empire really did have the upper hand in dictating terms- even the two big losses (Yavin and Hoth), were Imperial traps that the Rebels successfully avoided.

...a probable foe would be a mutinous imperial army that knows of its own equipment's weaknesses.

True, though they'd only have the same equipment themselves. Whatever vehicles the traitors used, the enemy would know their weaknesses too, unless they'd built new vehicles in secret.

WRT Palpatine knowing of the Vong invasion in advance, it was stated as the very reason he was so keen on stockpiling superweapons.
I find it amusing that the large amount of superweapons owned by the Empire were cited earlier in this thread as an example of stupidity on Palpy's part, when it was in fact great forward planning by him.

[Metahive]

The tow cable harpoons were pretty much the best strategy the Rebel Scum ever came up with. Though, as we saw at Hoth, it's far from 100% effective (how many speeders were out there(?), and only one made a successful attack using the method).

That's because the base was located in terrain suited very well for the deployment of AT-ATs, completely flat and empty. If they had put the base somewhere in the mountains that can be seen in the background it would have increased the Imperial's difficulties tenfold.

I guess the Rebels chose the easier ground because they didn't expect to be detected so soon.

For the most part the Empire really did have the upper hand in dictating terms- even the two big losses (Yavin and Hoth), were Imperial traps that the Rebels successfully avoided.

Yavin wasn't an imperial trap. That was Tarkin rushing the Death Star into battle because he was being overly confident of the invincibility of the station. It could be said Yavin was more an involuntary Rebel trap since it gave them the opportunity to attack the completed DS at its weakest (far away from any major population centers and imperial support that is).

True, though they'd only have the same equipment themselves. Whatever vehicles the traitors used, the enemy would know their weaknesses too, unless they'd built new vehicles in secret.

Depends on who's going on the offensive since the weaknesses of the AT-AT don't come into play that much if it's just used as a stationary direct fire artillery platform (that's were its high elevation is somewhat of a boon). SW tech, especially its ridiculously strong strategic and tactical shields have favored the defender more often than not, one of the reasons behind the development of the Death Star.