What Are The Worst ST/SW Cop-Outs?

BioDroid · Post by **BioDroid** » 2002-08-16 04:07am

Biggest Star Wars Cop Out: Instant Jedi Knight! Luke was how old before Ben Kenobi showed him a few tricks then promptly died a day later? Then three years later he spends a less than amusing week (if that) with Yoda on Dagobah. Then rushes of with his training incomplete, returns a year later, and Yoda tells him he's learned all he needs to know? What about being trained from practically birth? What about the years of discipline? (of which Luke showed none!!!!) What, did Yoda give him the frelling Jedi Cliff Notes or something?

Biggest Star Trek Cop Out: Oh No! It's the Prime Directive!!!! Remember when the good ol' Prime Directive was purely meant to keep Star Fleet from mucking about with precontact cultures? Enter the friggin' next generation, and all of the sudden the Prime Directive becomes an excuse to let ANY civilization just walk all over poor Captain Picards sorry ass. "Aha we have kidnapped your crew, and you can't do anything about it, because of your Prime Directive!!!" It's amazing that Star Fleet ever manages to get anything done!

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-08-16 05:04am

BioDroid wrote:Biggest Star Wars Cop Out: Instant Jedi Knight! Luke was how old before Ben Kenobi showed him a few tricks then promptly died a day later? Then three years later he spends a less than amusing week (if that) with Yoda on Dagobah. Then rushes of with his training incomplete, returns a year later, and Yoda tells him he's learned all he needs to know? What about being trained from practically birth? What about the years of discipline? (of which Luke showed none!!!!) What, did Yoda give him the frelling Jedi Cliff Notes or something?

Actually, the Falcon had to make an interstellar run on sunlight, that would take many months at least even if the systems were very close together. So he had a lot more then a week to train.

The time frame between the end of ESB and ROTJ seems to be quite short, and since the start of the two movies is six months, Luke could easiy have spent 4-5 training.

Still a bit absurd, but given his speical status as the last hope for the Galaxy, and the fact that he has no doubt been training on his own for the last 3.5 years, its not that absurd.

He also got off kind of easy in his first battle since his Father was not trying to kill him for most of it. Nothing like some on the job training to speed things along..

BioDroid · Post by **BioDroid** » 2002-08-16 05:15am

Actually, the Falcon had to make an interstellar run on sunlight, that would take many months at least even if the systems were very close together. So he had a lot more then a week to train.

The time frame between the end of ESB and ROTJ seems to be quite short, and since the start of the two movies is six months, Luke could easiy have spent 4-5 training.

Still a bit absurd, but given his speical status as the last hope for the Galaxy, and the fact that he has no doubt been training on his own for the last 3.5 years, its not that absurd.

He also got off kind of easy in his first battle since his Father was not trying to kill him for most of it. Nothing like some on the job training to speed things along..

I won't debate you too strenuously (sp) on the time issues, however I'll say this. 1. His OJT was unmentored, and hence was no substitute for real training (on the plus side, he got out of 99% of the damned Jedi indoctronation). Remember, he knew Kenobi for about a DAY, before he was killed. Not quite long enough to impart the fundamentals that he had spent two decades learning. There's still, quite the time issue when Some padawans would spend 20+ years in training, yet ol' whinny boy Skywalker makes the cut in less than one. Kinda makes you wonder how much Jedi training is actually how to use and feel the force, and how much is mindless indoctrination?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-08-16 05:24am

BioDroid wrote:
Actually, the Falcon had to make an interstellar run on sunlight, that would take many months at least even if the systems were very close together. So he had a lot more then a week to train.

The time frame between the end of ESB and ROTJ seems to be quite short, and since the start of the two movies is six months, Luke could easiy have spent 4-5 training.

Still a bit absurd, but given his speical status as the last hope for the Galaxy, and the fact that he has no doubt been training on his own for the last 3.5 years, its not that absurd.

He also got off kind of easy in his first battle since his Father was not trying to kill him for most of it. Nothing like some on the job training to speed things along..
I won't debate you too strenuously (sp) on the time issues, however I'll say this. 1. His OJT was unmentored, and hence was no substitute for real training (on the plus side, he got out of 99% of the damned Jedi indoctronation). Remember, he knew Kenobi for about a DAY, before he was killed. Not quite long enough to impart the fundamentals that he had spent two decades learning. There's still, quite the time issue when Some padawans would spend 20+ years in training, yet ol' whinny boy Skywalker makes the cut in less than one. Kinda makes you wonder how much Jedi training is actually how to use and feel the force, and how much is mindless indoctrination?

My theory is, he was highly attuned to the force to start with, thus Vader's comment, "the force is strong with this one" among other things, and as a result really did not need training. What he needed was simply to know that something was possible. Once he believed it, he could basically do it.

Indoctrination would be pretty important to keep young Jedi from turning to the dark side. I may be that Luke did not need it because he was a major part of somthing bigger, ie the force would not let him turn because he was needed.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-08-16 06:35am

StarshipTitanic wrote:You still don't know what they originally said unless someone quoted it.

Oh this is useless, we all know that such things are so rare they do not happen, it's like blowing up a planet in order to kill a fly.

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-08-16 07:35am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Actually, the Falcon had to make an interstellar run on sunlight, that would take many months at least even if the systems were very close together.

It's not necessary to assume that the Falcon had to make a long interstellar run. It had been sitting on the ISD for long enough to witness the Imperial ship rendevous with the rest of the group, it would've been easy for the ISD to make a hyperspace jump to a different system (the Anoat system in this case) in the mean time. The fact that Han had to check his computer to find out where they were proves this: no hyperspace jump, no real need to check where they are.

Alternatively WEG suggests they used a emergency-backup one-shot hyperdrive to get there.

Either way, there is no need to assume an unusually long journey to Bespin.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-08-16 08:21am

I don't have much faith in WEG. First explaination is superior IMO.

Also, it can allow a greater time for Luke's training on Dagobah.

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2002-08-17 01:37am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I don't see why this "no edit" thing bugs so many people here. You can't edit your posts over at the Straight Dope Message Board, either. And you don't hear anybody bitching over there.

If you look over what you type before you submit, it shouldn't be a problem.

But the thing is, accidents do happen and it would be nice to be able to correct them. If a user abuses it, then remove the edit function for that user. Its not that hard to do.

BioDroid · Post by **BioDroid** » 2002-08-17 04:25am

My theory is, he was highly attuned to the force to start with, thus Vader's comment, "the force is strong with this one" among other things, and as a result really did not need training. What he needed was simply to know that something was possible. Once he believed it, he could basically do it.

Indoctrination would be pretty important to keep young Jedi from turning to the dark side. I may be that Luke did not need it because he was a major part of somthing bigger, ie the force would not let him turn because he was needed.

Now all you're doing is supplying unfounded justifications in order to try and (weakly) explain the cop-out. Just deal with it! Luke attained Jedi status way to freakin quickly. He was for all intents and purposes an "Instant Jedi" TM.

In TPM and AOTC, we see that it takes DECADES to properly train a Jedi, and yet there's still a chance that even the greates of them (Dooku and Anakin Skywalker) will trip on over to the darkside. And now your trying to sell some garbage about the Force not letting Luke turn to the Dark Side, because he was something important? If the Force were self adjusting, there would be no reason for their to be a "Chosen One" to bring balance to the Force.[/quote]

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-08-17 05:06am

Actually, the Falcon had to make an interstellar run on sunlight

Better hope the solar panels don't conk out.....

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2002-08-17 11:15am

Biggest Star Wars cop-out? The ground battle on Endor. The Rebel commandos had no business winning that one in the face of superior Imperial firepower. The incompetent waste of time Imp commander had to be one hell of a good politician to win himself that command.

A close second goes to Queen Amidala leaving Jar Jar Binks in charge of her senate seat on Coruscant. That's a cop-out within a cop-out.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-08-17 03:42pm

LMSx wrote:
Actually, the Falcon had to make an interstellar run on sunlight
Better hope the solar panels don't conk out.....

No need. Momentum will keep the Falcon going. I think food is the more important worry during an Interstellar run in sublight.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-08-17 04:16pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:I only like EU World Devastators. Those are innovative, not just another way to cause a big BOOM.

The orbital nightloak was also a decent superweapon, and one that was used as a mere plot device rather than a major element of the plot -- like it should. I'll credit Wolverton on that, although other parts of TCOPL were unbearable.

One of my worst complaints about the pre-NJO EU: Luke getting some new love interest in every other book.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-08-17 04:20pm

Vertigo1 wrote:An edit function would be really nice.....

It was disabled to prevent morons from going back and changing what they said, then claiming that all along they'd been saying whatever they had only just edited in.

For more, see http://www.stardestroyer.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=871

Lord_Vader · Post by **Lord_Vader** » 2002-08-17 06:37pm

Actually I thought the clones idea in SW was pretty good. The Emperor sort of resurrecting himself so to speak. The Force is meant to essentially be everywhere and everything and the Emperor knowing that his soul is really one with the Force enabled him to move his spirit into another body. I could believe that. Zahn using the clones, while it did seem iffy we have not seen Grand Admiral Thrawn come back so to speak...and the clone he had depending on how that flashpak (sp) or whatever it was, depending on how good it was the clone may not have been able to copy Thrawn at all in terms of tactical genius. Thats all speculation of course. Perhaps for me the worst SW cop outs are like what someone said...Greedo shooting first...little fuzzy brown bears winning.

However, I do agree with others that TPM and AOTC while some scenes were rather silly especially in TPM we have to keep in mind that Anakin was conceived by the Force and therefore means he is extremely unique. Acting could have been better but on the other hand I liked in AOTC how you could clearly see Anakin being reckless and rushing off and constantly being rubbed the wrong way under Obi's guidance. Acting-wise though...this isnt the Godfather I dont think when someone goes to watch a SW one should expect such a grand performance...you go for the kick ass story and for the immersion into a universe that we are not a part of unfortunately.

ST cop-outs: the infamous ripped shirt Kirk. The infallible Mr. Spock. Borg somehow adapting to any known weapon/attack. The uber deflector dish. And the time travel deal...I still cant figure out why they included time travel in ST.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-17 08:15pm

...I still cant figure out why they included time travel in ST.

Actually some good TOS episodes were the result of time travel, one TNG episode, 1 film that was ok and I can even think of a DS9 episode or two that featured ok time travel.

It only became really bad with the advent of VOY but then again didnt everything about trek become bad at that point.

Lord_Vader · Post by **Lord_Vader** » 2002-08-17 08:32pm

I dislike the time travel they put in because it messes with the story. In First Contact they had the Borg go back in time near Earth...now why not just simply send the whole Borg fleet back in time to assimilate the Federation or why not have the Cube go back in time before it crosses into Federation territory that way it would deal with virtually no competition at all. Thats why I dont like the time travel aspect to ST.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-17 08:36pm

Just how many times did Harry Kim die? Or was nearly killed? Jesus, someone on the Voyager writing team must've had a major grudge against that character.

Writer 1: And then, uh...let's have Harry get infected by a subspace parasite!

Writer 2: But Steve, two episodes ago Harry got his ass kicked by Tuvox after a botched mind-meld.

Writer 3: Yeah, man, what's with this Kim thing? Give it a rest.

Writer 1: Fuck you guys! I'm gonna give that little bastard what he deserves!! Hahahaha!!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-17 08:41pm

Spanky The Dolphin: Yeah a similar thing happened to O'Brien on DS9, I can just see the writers meeting after the vacation "First things first how do we screw O'Brien this season"
He died.
He spent upwards of 20 years in jail.
His Wife got taken over by a "demon".
His Daughter get caught in some weird time field (as you do) and became a wild child.

Im sure theres more hmmm.

Ah he had to hang out with Bashir for 7 years.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-08-18 12:25am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Just how many times did Harry Kim die? Or was nearly killed? Jesus, someone on the Voyager writing team must've had a major grudge against that character.

Writer 1: And then, uh...let's have Harry get infected by a subspace parasite!

Writer 2: But Steve, two episodes ago Harry got his ass kicked by Tuvox after a botched mind-meld.

Writer 3: Yeah, man, what's with this Kim thing? Give it a rest.

Writer 1: Fuck you guys! I'm gonna give that little bastard what he deserves!! Hahahaha!!

ROTFLMAO!!!

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-08-18 10:50am

One of the worst cop-outs in Star Wars, IMO, is how Obi-Wan chops Darth Maul at the end of TPM. Short of the explainations that I have seen saying that Obi-Wan might have used the Force to cloud Darth Maul's mind, that was an incredibly dumb way for Maul (who was clearly the better fighter) to lose.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-08-21 02:29am

The worst ST cop-out is time travel, especially when they use it in an episode to ingeniouly solve a plot problem, but after that, it is forgotten.