DATA Vs Grand Admiral Thrawn vs Veers vs Spock playing risk

[Isolder74]

yes, but if Data is suppost to be more advanced the Deep Blue than he should have been able to beat Troi. Parhaps the writer of that episode didn't like computers

We have to remember that Deep Blue was built specifically for playing Chess, while Data in all probability was not. And we also cannot assume automatically that Data is more advanced than Deep Blue in regards to Chess. It would seem to me there is a couple of options:

1) Data is no good at games. However, this seems questionable due to his success at playing betting games, like my hotel example, but he was cheating there. Data also did clean out expert poker players in 19th century Earth, so he can't be that bad of a player of games.

2) Data let Troi win. This also seems unlikely, since he expressed genuine surprise at losing, which would indicate either a honest loss or deception on his part.

3) Data was dealing with many mental tasks at the time, so wasn't 100% focused on the game. Certainly possible, but he was able to predict loss eight moves ahead of time. Strange, he couldn't see a way out of it, or predict other moves equally as well?

4) Troi is an exceptional Chess player. This certainly could be true, and many people today can beat our common computers at games of Chess because their Chess programming is limited. Perhaps this is the case with Data.

Of the four options I can think of, number 4 seems to most likely.

you may right. But since there will be no distractions in this match he still will hold a good chance of winning

[Isolder74]

you may right. But since there will be no distractions in this match he still will hold a good chance of winning

I think we would have to first establish that Data is a good stradegist before claiming he would have a chance against someone like Thrawn who has been established as an excellent stradegist.

Well Data did beat a Zakdorn who was suppost to be a super strategic mind. Does this qualify?

[Robert Walper]

you may right. But since there will be no distractions in this match he still will hold a good chance of winning

I think we would have to first establish that Data is a good stradegist before claiming he would have a chance against someone like Thrawn who has been established as an excellent stradegist.

Well Data did beat a Zakdorn who was suppost to be a super strategic mind. Does this qualify?

I'm not entirely sure myself. Don't forget, he lost the first game, which is evidence against him right there. Technically, he didn't win the rematch either, he only made the game a draw after all, and that was only successful because his opponent had a disadvantage he didn't, biological exhaustion.

[Isolder74]

I think we would have to first establish that Data is a good stradegist before claiming he would have a chance against someone like Thrawn who has been established as an excellent stradegist.

Well Data did beat a Zakdorn who was suppost to be a super strategic mind. Does this qualify?

I'm not entirely sure myself. Don't forget, he lost the first game, which is evidence against him right there. Technically, he didn't win the rematch either, he only made the game a draw after all, and that was only successful because his opponent had a disadvantage he didn't, biological exhaustion.

perhaps

[Robert Walper]

you may right. But since there will be no distractions in this match he still will hold a good chance of winning

True enough, but he did lose the first game against Zakdorn. He only won the "draw" against Zakdorn because as a non machine entity, he's influenced by exhaustion.

[Robert Walper]

Forgot to mention Data didn't appear to have any distractions at that time.

For that matter, neither did he appear to have distractions against Troi in the Chess game. So that's two games we canonly know he has lost against what some people might consider an "inferior" foe. Risk might end up making him look like a moron.

[Isolder74]

you may right. But since there will be no distractions in this match he still will hold a good chance of winning

True enough, but he did lose the first game against Zakdorn. He only won the "draw" against Zakdorn because as a non machine entity, he's influenced by exhaustion.

True but he did say that the Zakdorn would have to play with a different strategy in every game because Data would not forget the strategies used against him. some would say that all Data would need to do is read the biography of napolian, Gengas Kahn, ect and then be unbeatable

[Isolder74]

Forgot to mention Data didn't appear to have any distractions at that time.

For that matter, neither did he appear to have distractions against Troi in the Chess game. So that's two games we canonly know he has lost against what some people might consider an "inferior" foe. Risk might end up making him look like a moron.

true

[Darth Wong]

Thanks for holding no ill will. I'm certainly not trying to be a dick about this. As far as I'm concerned, I have let the arguement go. What I want to know now is why Mr Wong deleted the message were I admitted I was wrong.

Because you ended it by repeating your nauseating insistence that manipulative "dice throwing" is a legitimate skill and not an attempt to cheat. You restricted your concession strictly to the issue of physically altering the dice themselves. Don't fucking lie, goddamn it.

[Isolder74]

i voted for Thrawn. He is a master Stratigist. Darth Wong have you voted yet?

[Jetfire]

How about playing "Diplomacy" instead of Risk? And to pad it up to 6 players ( which should ahve been the case to begin with. toss in Dr. Doom and Batman into the game as well, on the condition that any use of powers or powered armors is illegal and immediately remove you from the game. (In this setting though the game would probably never end)

Anyways, as for the actual battle, I give it a toss up between Data and Thrawn with an edge to Thrawn. A lot will depend on the throw of the dice and when cards get turned in IMO, not to mention who starts initially.

[Isolder74]

How about playing "Diplomacy" instead of Risk? And to pad it up to 6 players ( which should ahve been the case to begin with. toss in Dr. Doom and Batman into the game as well, on the condition that any use of powers or powered armors is illegal and immediately remove you from the game. (In this setting though the game would probably never end)

Anyways, as for the actual battle, I give it a toss up between Data and Thrawn with an edge to Thrawn. A lot will depend on the throw of the dice and when cards get turned in IMO, not to mention who starts initially.

What's diplomecy i've never heard of it

[tharkûn]

Risk is not a game that requires strategy. Any two players can crush a third, so my votes goes against thrawn. The others, knowing his reputation, will ally and crush his ass.

If Data and Spock both know that Thrawn is a superior player then the *only* logical course of action is to unite and kill him early (i.e. the first set of cards). Veers may or may not have parlayed good enough position to take out both Data and Spock after that, but if they beat him down (but not kill him down) in turn it would be an interesting game.

The difference between decent Risk players and good Risk players is knowing when you are outgunned alone and need to team up with somebody else to crush the best player in the game.

All told my vote goes to Spock for no good reason whatsoever, aside from the fact that Thrawn will be gone early.

[Mr Bean]

But how do you know Spock and Data would team up at all?
The Logical thing is to team with Thrawn who will have Veers on his side crush Data then because Thrawn is after all Thrawn will order Veers to stand down and have the final battle between himself and Spock

Personal I think Spock if he ever met Data would have a hard time restraining himself from icing the bot

[tharkûn]

It doesn't matter. Thrawn and Veers can try to ice Data. and Spock and Data can try to ice Thrawn. All told armies trade pretty even (about 5:6 attacker vs defender) so its *really* hard to kill somebody in an even fight.

If Veers and Thrawn work as you suggest very shortly both Thrawn and Data are dead. Which leaves a game between Spock and Veers which is won by 3 things:
who has the most armies left after the first 2 die.
who goes first after the other 2 die.
who has the most cards.

Due to the advantage attacking you simply attack everything till you have <3 dice in every pile. 2 player risk is a crap shoot, not strategy.

"Personal I think Spock if he ever met Data would have a hard time restraining himself from icing the bot"
Umm they did. I beleive it was called "Reunification", they seemed to get along well.

[Mr Bean]

If Veers and Thrawn work as you suggest very shortly both Thrawn and Data are dead. Which leaves a game between Spock and Veers which is won by 3 things:
who has the most armies left after the first 2 die.
who goes first after the other 2 die.
who has the most cards.

Why are you so insitant on Thrawn going? after all he can have Veers take the bullet for him if he wants

Umm they did. I beleive it was called "Reunification", they seemed to get along well.

But then was Data being himself? How much Tecnobabble was present there and given by Data within Spocks Hearing Range?


Thats like saying Wong and a hard Core Christian Fundie who loudly repeats over and over the earth is 4000 Years old will get along swimingly

[tharkûn]

Why are you so insitant on Thrawn going? after all he can have Veers take the bullet for him if he wants

Because I played much Risk in high school. If you know one guy will eventually kick your ass if you do nothing, you kill him early with the help of a friend. If you know your opponents, you kill the best guy first.

Have you ever played risk? There is no way you can have someone else take the bullet. You go around and each pick territories in turn to start. So say thrawn picks Western Australia, Data can pick Eastern Australia. At the first turn Spock and Data will have armies next to *every* holding of Thrawn's and can pile armies on to beat him down the first turn. Nothing Veers does can stop Data and Spock from killing at least 2/3rds of Thrawn's men the first shot and the rest shortly thereafter. He can kill off *1* of the two but if 2 marginally compotent people want you dead there is *nothing* you can do to stop them. Beleive me, I've tried. if 2 guys try to kill you they will do it. If you and a friend try to do it in return you can kill 1 of em too. In the end though the targets are still dead.

But then was Data being himself? How much Tecnobabble was present there and given by Data within Spocks Hearing Range?


Thats like saying Wong and a hard Core Christian Fundie who loudly repeats over and over the earth is 4000 Years old will get along swimingly

I think Data was being his superflous self, could be wrong.

[Isolder74]

Why are you so insitant on Thrawn going? after all he can have Veers take the bullet for him if he wants

Because I played much Risk in high school. If you know one guy will eventually kick your ass if you do nothing, you kill him early with the help of a friend. If you know your opponents, you kill the best guy first.

Have you ever played risk? There is no way you can have someone else take the bullet. You go around and each pick territories in turn to start. So say thrawn picks Western Australia, Data can pick Eastern Australia. At the first turn Spock and Data will have armies next to *every* holding of Thrawn's and can pile armies on to beat him down the first turn. Nothing Veers does can stop Data and Spock from killing at least 2/3rds of Thrawn's men the first shot and the rest shortly thereafter. He can kill off *1* of the two but if 2 marginally compotent people want you dead there is *nothing* you can do to stop them. Beleive me, I've tried. if 2 guys try to kill you they will do it. If you and a friend try to do it in return you can kill 1 of em too. In the end though the targets are still dead.

It's not as easy as you may think. i have never seen someone eleminated on the first turn of the game unless everyone conbines against that person. That is not going to happen here. The Problem with this stratigy is that it weaken both players so if thrawhn survives watch out he won't be causeing all of the damage. Even without earging from thrawn Veers would recocnize that the Data-Spock tag team place him at a disadvantage. so he will do lots of damage will still maintaining a strong position. It only requires talking one territory to get a card. and the first person cashing in cards does not get all that many. I have beaten several colalitions because i saved my cards untill after they cashed theirs in. Even if you play to purposely peacemeal someone's territory than you will be just as spread out. there are more ways of winning that just holding Austrialia that is just the easiest way to win but even then its not a sure thing. BTW only a moron would let aopponet set up his armies so that the can start controllingany continent. There is no way even two players can use their starting armies to overwhell any one player

[tharkûn]

Ahh the increasing cards gambit. Then the game is pure luck do I get my set of 60 now or later. Yes some strategy is involved, but its really pathetically little if you have increasing cards. I prefer the 4, 6, 8, 10 card rules. If you play increasing armies, then thrawn is most certainly toast of you hit him up 2:1. Just wait until after his turn and the first player smokes into him ... not enough to be card bait, but killing say 1/2 thrawn's armies. The next guy finishes him off. This leaves Veers in good position so that only a continue alliance will stop him from winning (or good old fashioned betrayal of one ally killing the other for cards).

I never said Thrawn dies the first turn (though it is entirely possible, had it happen to me). Figure it this way. Territories are divvied up, thrawn has data/spock on every border. On half the territories data places 2 armies for every 1 thrawn places. Spock does the same for the other territories. If thrawn puts all on one territory (or something close thereto) spock then places as many as close as possible. If Thrawn goes first he can suicide and trade 5 of his armies for 6 of his opponents. But remember they start off with a 2:1 advantage ... next turn he's dead. If veer's goes first and suicides he kills 5:6, but excluding the 1 army he has to leave behind ... this is not enough to help thrawn. If play goes Veers, thrawnand they are both inclined to kill say data, data will be nearly dead, however the armies expended will leave spock free to lay the beat down on Thrawn.

"There is no way even two players can use their starting armies to overwhell any one player"
BS. Its ludicriously easy. as noted above you pick territories so in most case you have 2 of the allies vs 1 of the target. At most you are *1* territory away. You can pile on and hold 2:1. After suicides the first player is terribly weakened and will not have enough armies to last through 1st cards. Sure this puts the 3rd guy in *very* good position and you might never recover from it ... that's the gamble. Most likely 1 of the feddies will go before 1 of the imps and they will utterly trash Thrawn. The next feddy can likely finish him off. Most certainly *1* of the allies dies, but not both (veers doesn't have the armies nor the mobility).

Your only hope to stay alive when two people want you dead is that another player attacks them hard enough they break off the attack. Doing so, on their part is highly illogical, if you are a shoe-in to win. The best strategists lose at risk if the enemy knows it.

[Isolder74]

Your only hope to stay alive when two people want you dead is that another player attacks them hard enough they break off the attack. Doing so, on their part is highly illogical, if you are a shoe-in to win. The best strategists lose at risk if the enemy knows it.

Which is excatally what veers is going to do. and if thrawn places all of his armies in one place, which he won't, your tage team would be left with only 1 army on every other of their territories. as a result veers would tear through them and leave them with only 3 army reinforcment in the next turn. thats asumming spock and data can knock out thrawn's stronghold. in 4 player game youget only 30 armies to work with. if thrawn places 10 on one place then by your strategy both data and spock would place 20 armies next to it. in a 4 player game the players start with about 10 territories so that would totaly strip both players of any defense on all other fronts in the game. you simply don't start with all of the srmys that you want. the anti-Thrawn coalation is realy taking quite a risk.

[Ender]

I give it to Veers.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

*Rides in in chariot held up by an army of animate porcelan gnomes, and hops off, shooing them away*

My goodness! Its been an entire 6 days since I've been on the boards!
Its been hard 12 hour days for me though, but I'm finally back (says good bye to post per day percentages).
Anyone miss me?

Well, now that that's out of the way, what do we have here?

Data: With dice manipulation out of the way, he seems to have his moments, he beat the chess super-computer. Then he lost to Troi, besides being another TNG inconsistency, it shows that either A.) Troi is kick-ass at chess, or B.) Data got real lucky, although chess isn't agame of luck. I'll be generous then and assume hes a strategic genious for thomping the computer.

Thrawn: A true genious, he never lost a game of dejark! Ok maybe he has, but he was supposedly an expert at that anda military genious too. dejark could be considered the Earth equivilent to chess (roughly, like poker to sabacc), so at this point we assume Thrawn is most likly better, while both of them are good at chess, Data has never shown any true strategic genious (although the E-D isn't a war vessel either, go figure).

Veers: General Maximillian Veers, although hes know Thrawn level genious, he is a general, and while I'm not real sure about this in real life, I was under the impression that a general knew a thing or two about stragtegy. Stragtegy wasn't required at Hoth, just a mad dash to the shield generator. However he was good enough to make clone templates out of by Thrawn, so he is obviously very intellegent, so he may may be good at something like dejark.

Spock: Logical, which isn't always what you want in games. Risks need to be taken, and Spock isn't all up for that. Spock goes down in flames no matter who you pit him against.

In chess (dejark), or military strategy, I'm going to have to go with Thrawn. In Risk however, I'm not sure. If Veers and Thrawn allied they'd easily kill Spock. Him aside, the two would similarly smash Data. And since Thrawn could effectivly order Veers around, it would be more like Thrawn with two armies.

AND THE WINNER THRAWN!


And this would be my enougural "Welcome Back" post, thank you very much.

[tharkûn]

It is indeed quite a risk, but if you know the other guy will eventually win, its worth it. If your chances of winning with Thrawn in the game are effectively 0 then *any* risk is justified to take him out. The only way Thrawn has a chance is if Data and Spock don't beleive he will eventually kick their asses, if they do not conclude that he will eventually beat them (which should become readily apperant if they have any knowledge of him), then the only logical course of action is to kill him early. I've been there, you cannot survive if the other side is outnumbering you 2:1.

I do find it interesting that people suggest that Data rigging the dice is cheating, but for Thrawn to instruct Veers to kill himself (aka rigging the game) for Thrawn's benifit is not.

[Isolder74]

I do find it interesting that people suggest that Data rigging the dice is cheating, but for Thrawn to instruct Veers to kill himself (aka rigging the game) for Thrawn's benifit is not.

True thrawn can't simply pull rank on veers he has to beat him legitimitally. but they can ally for mutuall benifit

[tharkûn]

Yes but is it to Veers benifit to keep Thrawn in the game? If Thrawn is going to win anyways, then its in his best interest to let the other two kill Thrawn off and hope they become so depleted he can hold good position or kill one of them off shortly.

In Risk if you know the other guy will eventually win, your best bet is to kill him early. An even better bet is to let the other guys kill him and reap the spoils. They may or may not have enough left to turn on you and wear you down (and you almost certainly never die).