Your in charge of the Federation or the Empire

[Cesario]

I've had this debate with D13 before.. time travel in Trek seems basically to work however the Writers want it to that particular week. Sometimes it does the "multiple univreseS" things, sometimes it affects things in its own timeline.

When has it ever done the "multiple universes" thing?

That's part of the problem of figuring out Time travel enough for it to be useful in a debate - you have to know to a certain extent what it can or can't do, otherwise the other side is just going to accuse you of making shit up.

We know the warp slingshot maneuver can get a ship and crew back or forward at least four centuries, because we've seen it do so on at least three separate occasions.

We know that changes to the past effect the present, because every time travel event except the All Good Things one (by act of Q) have resulted in changes to the present whenever the present was observed after the time travel event.

What more do we need to know about how it works?

I mean look at the "reset button example" - perfectly valid, but then why are they stopped from going back any farther?

Are you talking about D13's chess program analogy or are you referring to some specific episode?

If D13's example, why would they want to go back farther?

Why not back to when say, the GE was formed, or when Palpy was born, and smother him in the radle?

We don't know where or when Palpy was born. I noted this in my explanation for why I'm not adopting assassinating past Palpetine as a major element of my defense strategy.

If you don't know when you need to go to, having a time machine doesn't solve that problem all on its own.

Why not back to when the Republic is smaller and blow up Coruscant..

Why would I want to? We aren't at war with the old Republic.

you can argue that but then it invites all those "why didnt they..." arguments against whatever war/villain they're fighting (Borg, Dominion, etc.) Or for that matter why don't bad guys use time travel more? Or other powerS? I mean there's literally shit-tons of ways you can travle in time in trek, use it as weapons, etc. If they have all these capabilites (or counter them) why aren't they used more?

If time travel doesn't work, why is it ever used at all?

It seems to be that the lack of military uses of time travel by either side of a war involving the major powers is akin to the lack of battlefield deployment of nuclear weapons since World War II. Star Trek is a cold war analogy, and everyone knowing better than to bring out the big guns, for fear of the Russians bringing out theirs, is all the explanation I need. Arms control treaties canonically exist in Trek, after all.

If you want a Star Wars example, look at the Death Star and the construction rates, power generation, etc. and how that is extrapolated from.

What about it? I'm not objecting to the industrial or power generation figures we're using here. That's why I, as Supreme Commander of the Federation's defenses, am not prosecuting this as a conventional war. Because I know and accept that I would lose a conventional war. Thus my only hope is to use unconventional tools.

Tools that would normally be considered too dangerous to use in conventional wars against neighboring powers.

Besides, we don't have an arms control treaty with the Empire, and it's not like they're going to agree not to bring their big guns to the party.

I know some (EG D13) object to the manner in which that is done - how is time travel any different?

Different from what?

Or any other lost tech for that case?

If we have humpback whales, there is no such thing as lost tech.

[Bakustra]

I'm pretty sure that the official explanation is that the Force is doing all the heavy lifting for precognitive powers. Thus, if the Force wants you rubbed out, you find your lightsaber carefully moving away from blaster shots, et cetera. Or we can borrow a leaf from Dune and say that two force-trained people block each other's precognitive powers.

[Connor MacLeod]

When has it ever done the "multiple universes" thing?

Parallels comes to mind.. weren't there different timelines and different events occuring (like one where the Borg have taken over everything?) There was another one. What about that one where they meet the Enterprise-C? I thought that was multiple timelines too.

There's other cases that have been brought up before, like when people go back in time but never seem to meet themselves (Captain's Holiday, etc.) or I imagine in cases where time always repeats itself (There was at least one case in voyager like that wasn't there? Time and Again I think?)

We know the warp slingshot maneuver can get a ship and crew back or forward at least four centuries, because we've seen it do so on at least three separate occasions.

We know that changes to the past effect the present, because every time travel event except the All Good Things one (by act of Q) have resulted in changes to the present whenever the present was observed after the time travel event.

What more do we need to know about how it works?

Because we get back to the whole "why do they not..." That isn't a trivial issue. Time travel as a capability is demonstrably useful, and as such it should have an impact on things far greater than it has if it were common place or easily achieved. That it is not suggests there are limitations of some king, either iwth how it is done (such as it may be only done in certain locations), or some external force (like the 29th century feds and others) may prevent certain activities from happening (which is why people don't fuck around with time all the time.)

I should also point out that time travel also creates problems with canon, if going back in time changes the past or anything. How could we be sure things in past epsiodes hold true if things have changed? Time travel would be hard to predict that way.

Are you talking about D13's chess program analogy or are you referring to some specific episode?

If D13's example, why would they want to go back farther?[/quote]

Again the "why don't they.." argument. Why not, for example go back and stop the borg? Why not go back and stop the dominion? Why do other powers (like the Klingons, CArdassians, Dominion, etc.) not do it? Why don't the borg do it more (they did it once and got away with it, why not again?)

We don't know where or when Palpy was born. I noted this in my explanation for why I'm not adopting assassinating past Palpetine as a major element of my defense strategy.

But you can go back in time. all ya gotta do is keep going bakc over and over until you do find him, and finish it. Use one of the myraid planet-destroying technobabble options available to trek, fuck with a star, etc.

If you don't know when you need to go to, having a time machine doesn't solve that problem all on its own.

It just makes it harder. It doesn't make it impossible. But if you have no limits on your time travel whats to stop you from keep redoing things until you do get it right?

Why would I want to? We aren't at war with the old Republic.

Because the Republic becomes the empire. Destablizing the REpublic should be far easier than fucking with the Empire. And its another way to assasinate Palpy.

If time travel doesn't work, why is it ever used at all?

It seems to be that the lack of military uses of time travel by either side of a war involving the major powers is akin to the lack of battlefield deployment of nuclear weapons since World War II. Star Trek is a cold war analogy, and everyone knowing better than to bring out the big guns, for fear of the Russians bringing out theirs, is all the explanation I need. Arms control treaties canonically exist in Trek, after all.

Ah the "stupidity" excuse. That works in some cases, but not in others. (CF the Borg.) Also we've seen individual Klingons using it that way (Trials and Tribble-ations) - why would one klingon figure it out and not others?

And IIRC the slingshot method from the TOS movies is still well known in the TNG era. Why dont' one of the more militant/assholish Federation types ever use that?

What about it? I'm not objecting to the industrial or power generation figures we're using here. That's why I, as Supreme Commander of the Federation's defenses, am not prosecuting this as a conventional war. Because I know and accept that I would lose a conventional war. Thus my only hope is to use unconventional tools.

Tools that would normally be considered too dangerous to use in conventional wars against neighboring powers.

Besides, we don't have an arms control treaty with the Empire, and it's not like they're going to agree not to bring their big guns to the party.

Actually some good objections were raised ot it, because assuming that DS Mass = millions/billions of ISDS or scaling down ISD firepower form DS fire power (oor power generation from power generation) is overly simplistif and ignores other variables/problems. Which it does. I believe D13 has amde this argument in the past

If we have humpback whales, there is no such thing as lost tech.

That just creates other problems. "Why don't they.." arguments are annoying and they arne't always applicable (and are overused I'll admit it) but that doesnt mean they can be ignored or will go away, because sometimes they ARE applicable, and if you don't consider it you end up inventing abilities that one side doesn't exist. (It's happened with B5 First ones for example, used to inflate their abilities up to face other powers like the Time Lords, the Culture, etc.)

[Connor MacLeod]

That's true, it changes from time to time, but more often than not, it does timeline editing (or something indistinguishable from that).

The big question that matters is why don't they do it more often?

I'd say God steps in and says "we really don't want a time travel story this week".

God or the 29th century feds, or some random omnipotent (like the Q) or whatever. I wouldn't object to that idea at all, and it woudl explain certain cases (like in First Contact why the Enterprise was "Shielded from changes") but that leads to the question of things like "why would said powres let Trek use time travel in this case?" The dangerous thing about Time travel in Trek, and I suspect the reason why it might be so restricted from the future end of things, is because the universe(s) are a complex place, and adding another dimension to it makes things even more complex. Policing it all would probably be impossible all the time for people, so they probalby find it easier to just say "stop fucking with the past you twits". Hell we know tin DS9 they have agencies devoted ot that exact purpose in the present.. I'd suspect that time travel is something that is a big no no all around for all races (kinda like theri equivalent of nukes, perhaps?)

And then there's the canon angle. IF all the time travel cases we get piling up in ST keep changing the past/future/present, doesnt this make making sense of things even more complex, because stuff that happens in another episode may not be reliable anymore. (I've actually considered this as a possible explanation for inconsistencies... except that it is basically "throwing out information" and you can't really cherry pick that, so you can throw out some useful information with lousy information... it just gets messier.)

(this is why hard sci fi rocks, btw. If you never bring in something weird, it not being used later can never be used against you.)

Yes but hard sci fi keeps shrinking in on itself How much longer before inter-system travel becomes unrealistic and we're restricted to just the orbit of a planet, or planets?

BTW re precog: I really wish whomever invented that never did. It's a terrible, terrible explanation for anything. I wouldn't have even used it in The Empire Strikes Back.

In ANH, Ben tells us that the Force can guide you if you let go of your conscious self. When Luke lets it control him, he succeeded in blocking the laser blasts.

Boom! Perfect explanation: surrender yourself to true faith in god the force, and it will see to it that things work out right. You don't really know how the Force knew what to do, but it did and it controlled your actions.

ESB started the precog thing by having Luke actually see things (if I'm remembering the movie correctly). It wasn't just "I have a bad feeling about something and really want to go to Cloud City" (then Yoda could explain to him that's the Force telling him something, and he's gotta make a decision).

He saw a potential future in actual pictures and everything and had to act.

It's not how I would have done it... but then again, I'm not a good writer. Still, ESB turned out pretty OK. It worked on screen, it worked for Yoda, and it worked for Luke.

Humans are still fallible, need to eat and sleep, get tired and lose concentration, etc. Even with perfect precognition on the force end, it can never be perfect as long as humans are fallible. And SW humans aren't perfect

Then some asshole is like "forget what ANH told us, it's this same thing in lightsaber fights too!!11!!11!11!!", and that's bullshit.

Not only is the Force not as cool and mystical anymore, this simply doesn't work!


In ESB, Luke got the visions and had time to think them through and act. They were a big picture problem well in advance. It's not like he had to make this exact move at this exact time to live, it was just go there if that's what he believes will happen. That makes sense.

With lightsaber fights, ugh, how far in advance is it? If looking at the future, will you fuck up the present? Can you bring yourself to block it right?

So many things that suck about it... especially since we already had a working explanation in the first movie. Poo.

The thing about the "instinct" angle is that it mens a sacrifice of conscious thought - sure you can let the force "guide" you, but how easy is it really to surrender completely for a human? It may be impossible for a person to do that 100% all the time, and even if they could there are still human frailties to consider. I know of a number of exapmles in the eU where someone does that, and they basically disintegrate in a short timeframe.. so it may be a big no no.

[Cesario]

When has it ever done the "multiple universes" thing?

Parallels comes to mind.. weren't there different timelines and different events occuring (like one where the Borg have taken over everything?)

Parallels had nothing to do with time travel. It's a common misconception that's cropped up around these parts. Yes, there are multiple parallel universes in Trek. The episode explained this is a result of the universe branching every time an electron needing to decide between two states. Furthermore, they demonstrated the ability to detect when matter was from the wrong "quantum reality". They noted that everything in one universe will ressonate with a particular "quantum signature", and that Worf had a different one from everyone else on the Enterprise.

If this phenomenon had anything to do with Time Travel, then those crew members who had undergone time travel events would have had a different "quantum signature" from the rest of the ship, but it was explicitly noted as only being Worf.

There was another one. What about that one where they meet the Enterprise-C? I thought that was multiple timelines too.

No, actually. The Enterprise-C incident is actually evidence against the multiple universe theory.

We see the time-travel event from an outside prospective, and the moment the Enterprise-C is removed from its proper place in history, the present is visibly altered. Guinan notices the timeline shift as it happens, as a kind of intuition. She recognizes that history has strayed from its proper course, and needs to be righted.

When the Enterprise-C is returned to its proper place in time, the grimdark future we spent most of the episode in is again visibly overwritten, and again Guinan notices something has changed, but states that things are as they should be.

There's other cases that have been brought up before, like when people go back in time but never seem to meet themselves (Captain's Holiday, etc.)

Why would the time travelers in Captain's Holiday be expected to meet themselves?

or I imagine in cases where time always repeats itself (There was at least one case in voyager like that wasn't there? Time and Again I think?)

Time and Again followed standard Trek time travel rules, and actually offers the same evidence against multiple timelines that was present in Yesterday's Enterprise. Kes had the same sort of intuition of a timeline alteration that Guinan had.

In this episode, we have a standard time-travel incident where Janeway and Paris end up in the past, do something to alter history at this point (specifically, preventing the explosion that led Voyager to investigate the planet in the first place), then things progressed from there with Voyager moving on, likely leaving the temporally displaced copies of Janeway and Paris on the planet, assuming they weren't killed in the rioting or the energy discharge from Janeway's phaser interacting with the rift.

There are a few lose ends about the first cause of that episode's time travel event, but it's clear we're not following events from before the first time-travel incident in that episode.

We know the warp slingshot maneuver can get a ship and crew back or forward at least four centuries, because we've seen it do so on at least three separate occasions.

We know that changes to the past effect the present, because every time travel event except the All Good Things one (by act of Q) have resulted in changes to the present whenever the present was observed after the time travel event.

What more do we need to know about how it works?

Because we get back to the whole "why do they not..." That isn't a trivial issue. Time travel as a capability is demonstrably useful, and as such it should have an impact on things far greater than it has if it were common place or easily achieved. That it is not suggests there are limitations of some king, either iwth how it is done (such as it may be only done in certain locations), or some external force (like the 29th century feds and others) may prevent certain activities from happening (which is why people don't fuck around with time all the time.)

We do know that there are certain limitations on the Warp Slingshot maneuver. You need a ship equipped with warp drive. And you need a large gravitational mass like a main sequence star or a black hole. Without one of those two items, you can't make it work. We know for certain that the Earth's sun is an appropriate location, because it has been used on three separate occasions. The only time the slingshot maneuver didn't use the earth's sun was the initial accident when it was done around a black hole.

If the 29th century feds are preventing temporal shenanigans, that leads to the question of why they haven't prevented them every time. And we thankfully have an answer for that which is quite satisfying.

They don't use the Temporal Prime Directive as it's defined in the 24th century. They don't care about maintaining the original timeline. They care about something they call "the preferred timeline". Basically, if a time travel incident makes things better, it stays, and if it makes things worse, they intervene. That's why Admiral Janeway's timeline where she fucked over the Borg and handed over future tech was allowed to stand, why the computer revolution spawned by Braxton's misadventure was left in place, and why Voyager itself was required to be dumped back in the Delta Quadrant rather than left at Earth.

We can point to the fact that our heroes managed to undo temporal damage on their own as a reason for the 29th century timecops not showing up to fix things before our heroes can try themselves in a dozen different time travel episodes.

If you want to posit a limitation beyond what we've seen on screen and the basic good sense of everyone involved not wanting to fuck with causality except in extremely dire circumstances, you're welcome to do so, but I think what we have is quite adequate.

I should also point out that time travel also creates problems with canon, if going back in time changes the past or anything. How could we be sure things in past epsiodes hold true if things have changed? Time travel would be hard to predict that way.

I'm afraid that's just an unavoidable hazzard when dealing with a series where time travel works.

If it's any consolation, every time travel story except J J Abrams' most recent clusterfuck had the decency to clean up after itself.

Are you talking about D13's chess program analogy or are you referring to some specific episode?

If D13's example, why would they want to go back farther?

Again the "why don't they.." argument. Why not, for example go back and stop the borg? Why not go back and stop the dominion?

Because it turns out they didn't need to.

Why do other powers (like the Klingons, CArdassians, Dominion, etc.) not do it?

Do we know for sure the other powers have access to time travel?

Why don't the borg do it more (they did it once and got away with it, why not again?)

I want to know why they tried it this time. It doesn't fit with their MO or stated objectives. There's no tech to steal in Earth's past.

We don't know where or when Palpy was born. I noted this in my explanation for why I'm not adopting assassinating past Palpetine as a major element of my defense strategy.

But you can go back in time. all ya gotta do is keep going bakc over and over until you do find him, and finish it. Use one of the myraid planet-destroying technobabble options available to trek, fuck with a star, etc.

This is also known as the "all your eggs in one basket" defense strategy.

To pull this off, you need a ship and crew equipped with a drive system that can take them anywhere in the Galactic Empire, enough information to blend in with the past timeline, the tools to track down the hidden secret identity of Darth Sideous without tipping our hand to the Dark Lord of the Sith about what we can do and without any of our temporal manipulation technology falling into his hands at any point in the past before we're aware of his existence.

If we can get a copy of the Dark Lord's unofficial biography with a historically accurate account of his life, this strategy might be worth it, but as it stands, we stand to lose too much and gain too little.

Like I said earlier, if I'm going to alter the history of the Galactic Empire, my preferred incursion point is going back and getting Padme prenatal care.

If you don't know when you need to go to, having a time machine doesn't solve that problem all on its own.

It just makes it harder. It doesn't make it impossible. But if you have no limits on your time travel whats to stop you from keep redoing things until you do get it right?

Past Darth Sideous murdering my time travelers and stealing their ship.

Why would I want to? We aren't at war with the old Republic.

Because the Republic becomes the empire. Destablizing the REpublic should be far easier than fucking with the Empire. And its another way to assasinate Palpy.

Destabilizing the Republic is what got us into this mess to begin with. If the Republic were more stable, Palpetine wouldn't have taken over and we wouldn't be facing an Evil Empire.

If time travel doesn't work, why is it ever used at all?

It seems to be that the lack of military uses of time travel by either side of a war involving the major powers is akin to the lack of battlefield deployment of nuclear weapons since World War II. Star Trek is a cold war analogy, and everyone knowing better than to bring out the big guns, for fear of the Russians bringing out theirs, is all the explanation I need. Arms control treaties canonically exist in Trek, after all.

Ah the "stupidity" excuse.

Because it's stupid not to deploy nuclear weapons in our current wars...?

That works in some cases, but not in others. (CF the Borg.)

What does the Federation know about the Borg's history? If they went into the past, how would the Federation strikeforce find and identify the Borg homeworld before they became the Galaxy-wide threat they've become? How would that strikeforce even cover the vast distance required to get to the presumed location of the Borg homeworld in the Delta Quadrant?

If you want to call them stupid for not doing this, it only works if you've already got all the particulars worked out.

Also we've seen individual Klingons using it that way (Trials and Tribble-ations) - why would one klingon figure it out and not others?

You'll note that said lone Klingon criminal was not acting with the approval of his government (arms control treaties, etc.) and was using a time travel mechanism that gives no indication one way or the other what time travel tech the Klingon Empire's military is sitting on.

And IIRC the slingshot method from the TOS movies is still well known in the TNG era. Why dont' one of the more militant/assholish Federation types ever use that?

Do we know he didn't? Do we know that he didn't also fuck up, realize the error of his ways, and set things right? A lot of stuff happens off-screen. We're only following one ship and crew most of the time, after all.

What about it? I'm not objecting to the industrial or power generation figures we're using here. That's why I, as Supreme Commander of the Federation's defenses, am not prosecuting this as a conventional war. Because I know and accept that I would lose a conventional war. Thus my only hope is to use unconventional tools.

Tools that would normally be considered too dangerous to use in conventional wars against neighboring powers.

Besides, we don't have an arms control treaty with the Empire, and it's not like they're going to agree not to bring their big guns to the party.

Actually some good objections were raised ot it, because assuming that DS Mass = millions/billions of ISDS or scaling down ISD firepower form DS fire power (oor power generation from power generation) is overly simplistif and ignores other variables/problems. Which it does. I believe D13 has amde this argument in the past

And I'm sure those were very interesting discussions, but for the purposes of my defensive planning, I'm going to assume that's what we're dealing with. If nothing else, the massive population and industrial edge alone is enough for me to need to resort to drastic measures.

If we have humpback whales, there is no such thing as lost tech.

That just creates other problems. "Why don't they.." arguments are annoying and they arne't always applicable (and are overused I'll admit it) but that doesnt mean they can be ignored or will go away, because sometimes they ARE applicable, and if you don't consider it you end up inventing abilities that one side doesn't exist. (It's happened with B5 First ones for example, used to inflate their abilities up to face other powers like the Time Lords, the Culture, etc.)

Sorry, but when earth was in danger, and the only thing that could save them was the "lost technology" of the language of humpback whales, they damn well used time travel to retrieve that "lost technology". It happened. It was a great movie.

Can you think of any particular incident when such "lost technology" is so absolutely vital that they didn't go back and grab it? If you want to get into "why don't they" arguments, that's fine, but what didn't they do that you think they should have?

[Eternal_Freedom]

OK, I'm gonna throw this idea out here since it's slightly wacky and includes time travel.

As Supreme commander of the Federation Defence charged with prosecuting a war with the Empire I will do...

Nothing. I'll leave ships and stations where they are. Oh, I'll do the usual, emphasis combat roles in ship design and make exploratory secondary etc, but as far as offensive/defensive moves go, I shant do a thing.

Now let me explain:

-We know that in the future (29th/31st Century) the Federation still exists and possesses apparently powerful and capable time travel technology.
-We know they protect the extant timeline, or a "preferred" timeline as Cesario speculated.
-We can assume that a conventional war with the Empire will end with the destruction of the Federation as a political entity at the least, if not outright if Dark Empire Palpatine is runnign things.
-We can also assume that the removal of the Federation will NOT be included in the future Federation's preferred or extant timeline, and that they will act to prevent this catastrophic timeline damage (from their POV) from occurring.

In other words, sit back and let the future guys figure out how to stop it. Maybe displacing the commanders and crews of the Imperial ships as they approach the MW, perhaps sending back some technobabble bomb to take out the wormhole that appears. Or something.

The point is, I, as the present-day-2380-ish CINC-STARFLEET, don't have to do anything except face the known threats like the Dominion and the Borg etc.

[Cesario]

Why de-emphasize exploration and emphasize combat?

Seems to me that you get the fancy tech that puts the Federation ahead of its neighbors by maintaining a focus on science.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's true. I don't mean totally de-emphasise exploration, I'm thinking have more ship designs like the Sovereign class, fully capable of defending themselves, very rugged (Nemesis tells us that at least), whilst still being able to explore and so on.

When I say de-emphasise, what I really mean is moving the slider slightly further from "Explore" and slightly closer to "Defend."

Nevertheless, that's all fairly incidental to my war plan.

[Cesario]

It's just that these suggestions to militarize the Federation always seem so very strange to me.

Starfleet is not a military organization.

Starfleet doesn't need to be a military organization.

The United Federation of Planets is technologically far enough ahead of the other powers that it can afford not to be a military organization.

Starfleet's exploration vessels can take on and win against the dedicated warships of the other powers they're usually in fights with, and for exotic threats like the Borg, they're better off with the suites of sophisticated sensor arrays, cybernetics labs, and fancy research departments than they'd be with a few dozen more phaser banks and torpedo launchers.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair enough, but you haven't addressed my actual plan.

[Cesario]

Sorry, I didn't realize you were looking for critique on your "do nothing and pray someone from the future bails us out" strategy.

Seems to me the most likely response the future Federation will have to this is to remove you from power and put someone in power who will handle the fight and win it like they remember happening in the preferred timeline.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's one way to look at it.

I was assuming though that any "vs" scenario is going to be an intrusion to the timeline rather than a part of it. If it's part of the timeline, fine, I'll let someone better skilled lead the fight.

If it is an intrusion though, maybe the 31st guys will intercede.

[Stark]

In a more scifi way, why woudl 29th century Federation men - who have all these powers through the Federation's history of pure science and development of edge technologies - work to protect the administration of someone who is actively reducing those elements? If you (say) cut research budgets for all 500 years, the 29th century guys would be sensibly diminished in capability to save you.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 'preferred' timeline is one where they retain their technology and powers, and in this scenario they'd simply use their powers to protect the science focus of the Federation.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ok, fine, forget I said anything about changing Starfleet's emphasis on exploration.

Does the preferred timeline include an Imperial incursion and assault? If it does, fine, get some great Admiral to lead the defence. If it doesn't, then it stands to reason the far-future Feds won't permit it to occur.

[Cesario]

If I get bailed out by my descendents, the Organians, Prophets, Q, or a surprise change of heart by the Empire, I'll consider it a bonus.

I'm not going to rely on any of those things happening, however, because you can't count on any of them with any degree of certainty.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If the future forces do intervene, would we even need to rely on it or be aware of it? If they get it right, would we even be aware of the Imperial advance?

I'm only coming up with this wacky idea becaus eI have no idea how to win a war against the Empire as the Federation, not without totally destroying the Federation in the process.

Of course, you could simply have pointed out that the OP specifies the war does happen, so the future-guys aren't/won't/haven't intervened.

[Cesario]

Personally, I think it's more fun trying to find a way for the Federation to pull a come-from-behind victory off.



If we make use of the Subspace Transporter, we can neutralize the shielding and firepower disparity by just beaming antimatter bombs next to the reactor cores of enemy ships, past armor and shields. We know the Federation knows how to make a Subspace Transporter, and we know the thing ignores every known form of shielding and scrambling. (Otherwise they'd have taken Picard's supposed son to one of those planets full of raretanium ore that blocks transporters.) This also gives us an engagement range of a few lightyears.

The Federation never considered weaponizing this technology, but since I'm in charge of Starfleet for the duration of this war, I can.

Knowing where the Star Destroyers are going to exit hyperspace every time thanks to next Thursday's intelligence briefing lets me blow up any ships they send to attack my worlds before they can get any shots off. (Likewise the Death Star when they send it.)



Defense alone won't win a war, however, and attacking is where we're going to run into trouble.

Genesis Coruscont and what have you accomplished? You've managed a galactic 9/11. You took out a landmark and killed a bunch of people, but there's nothing really accomplished in terms of winning the war. All you've done is perpetrated a major terrorist attack.

That's why we need the Rebel Alliance. They know the political situation, they're gathering popular support, and they've got the people and knowhow to dismantle the system. Not to mention they've got drive systems that can deliver my ships into position in enemy territory.

If the rebels aren't there, we are in trouble, and will have to do all the intelligence gathering and alliance building ourselves. We've got better tools for getting information out of the unknowing and unwilling than the Empire does, and that should help. Bring along a full Betazed and all we have to worry about is wacky hijinks and embarrassed captains. Our telepaths should be able to identify sympathetic individuals and link us up with groups that can help and warn us away from groups who'll cause trouble for us.

Once inside, we hire smugglers and transports. We may not use money, but that doesn't mean we can't replicate something valuable to barter with for local currency. Our medical knowledge, if nothing else, should fetch us a good price.

Once we know where in the enemy galaxy we're supposed to be attacking, we can start in on the actual counterattack.

Try to get an exception from the Romulans about using Cloaking technology outside the Milky Way, and send some cloaked ships to target their weapons production, Stormtrooper training, and hypermatter mining facilities. The technology to detect cloaked ships that Wars has is expensive and not present on every ship. We can improve our odds of success by checking future intelligence reports about where our ships were detected and destroyed versus where our ships accomplished their missions and not waste ships on missions that they'll fail at.

Main focus is on disrupting the Emperor's ability to use his forces to maintain control in his own galaxy, and make the fomenting of rebellion within his territory easier.

Once we have a fledgeling Rebel Alliance to work with, proceed as in my original plans. Otherwise, keep going on this strategy until the entire enemy Galaxy's military infrastructure is destroyed.

Keep psionic resonators on hand for every ship, with orders to assassinate Palpetine as a target of opportunity should anyone get a chance.

[Azron_Stoma]

Personally, I think it's more fun trying to find a way for the Federation to pull a come-from-behind victory off.



If we make use of the Subspace Transporter, we can neutralize the shielding and firepower disparity by just beaming antimatter bombs next to the reactor cores of enemy ships, past armor and shields. We know the Federation knows how to make a Subspace Transporter, and we know the thing ignores every known form of shielding and scrambling.

Except we know that Star Destroyer shields extend into subspace (thrawn trilogy) so Subsbace Transporters won't work for the same reason Transphasic torpedoes etc won't either.

Defense alone won't win a war, however, and attacking is where we're going to run into trouble.

Nevermind how your Defense strategy won't work, how exactly are you going to be going about in Imperial space? Even if you get through the wormhole or whatnot Warp is painfully slow, and once you start your initial attacks the information you had from the future is obsolete, so even if your Defense strategy did work, you would no longer know where or when Imperial ships were coming until they were right on top of you.

Try to get an exception from the Romulans about using Cloaking technology outside the Milky Way, and send some cloaked ships to target their weapons production, Stormtrooper training, and hypermatter mining facilities. The technology to detect cloaked ships that Wars has is expensive and not present on every ship. We can improve our odds of success by checking future intelligence reports about where our ships were detected and destroyed versus where our ships accomplished their missions and not waste ships on missions that they'll fail at.

Again when exactly did your ships get hyperdrives?

Keep psionic resonators on hand for every ship, with orders to assassinate Palpetine as a target of opportunity should anyone get a chance.

Uh, there was only one psionic resonator known, the Stone of Gol, so no you're not going to be having one for every ship.


Yeah none of these tactics would work...

[Cesario]

Personally, I think it's more fun trying to find a way for the Federation to pull a come-from-behind victory off.



If we make use of the Subspace Transporter, we can neutralize the shielding and firepower disparity by just beaming antimatter bombs next to the reactor cores of enemy ships, past armor and shields. We know the Federation knows how to make a Subspace Transporter, and we know the thing ignores every known form of shielding and scrambling.

Except we know that Star Destroyer shields extend into subspace (thrawn trilogy) so Subsbace Transporters won't work for the same reason Transphasic torpedoes etc won't either.

They're also full of enough holes that you can fly a starship through them. Well, at least Death Star shields are (A New Hope). A competent transporter operator can use those holes to put a normal transporter beam through them, but I like to use the subspace transporter for the improved range and because it takes a lot of the stupid arguments about power transformers blocking things off the table. Not to mention ignoring every known form of shielding.

I've read around here that instead of the frequency-based synchronization Federation ships use to fire out of their shields, there's some evidence that the Empire opens actual holes in their shields to use as gunports. Not a problem most days, but you don't even need a complete hole to get a normal transporter beam through, just a relatively weak spot.

Subspace is a big place, and you can't shield it all without infinite power, due to it covering infinite domains. Just having one domain covered doesn't protect you.

Defense alone won't win a war, however, and attacking is where we're going to run into trouble.

Nevermind how your Defense strategy won't work, how exactly are you going to be going about in Imperial space? Even if you get through the wormhole or whatnot Warp is painfully slow, and once you start your initial attacks the information you had from the future is obsolete, so even if your Defense strategy did work, you would no longer know where or when Imperial ships were coming until they were right on top of you.

Try to get an exception from the Romulans about using Cloaking technology outside the Milky Way, and send some cloaked ships to target their weapons production, Stormtrooper training, and hypermatter mining facilities. The technology to detect cloaked ships that Wars has is expensive and not present on every ship. We can improve our odds of success by checking future intelligence reports about where our ships were detected and destroyed versus where our ships accomplished their missions and not waste ships on missions that they'll fail at.

Again when exactly did your ships get hyperdrives?

I covered this. You seem to have cut it. I have no intention of relying on my own drive systems to deliver my ships to my targets. Isn't it wonderful that Star Wars has so many starships not in the hands of the military-industrial complex? I'm going to be hiring freighters.

Assuming, again, that I can't get in touch with that lovely anti-imperial organization dwelling within the Empire's own borders that would love to negotiate for the kinds of weapons I can provide to help them oust their evil emperor.

Keep psionic resonators on hand for every ship, with orders to assassinate Palpetine as a target of opportunity should anyone get a chance.

Uh, there was only one psionic resonator known, the Stone of Gol, so no you're not going to be having one for every ship.

Retrive the first one, replicate it.

We know that replicators can duplicate an object without a clear understanding of the device's operating principles from the Deep Space 9 episode Rivals. If for some unfathomable reason the resonator turns out to be made of something we can't replicate with sufficient precision, we turn to the transporter. We know that device can serve as a quantum level replicator and can duplicate anything that can be transported. ("Second Chances") And we know that the Stone of Gol can be transported because it has been transported.

More of a side-issue, however, since what are the odds my crews are going to have a chance to assassinate Old Prune Face while they're out and about anyway?

Yeah none of these tactics would work...

I don't think you read very carefully. I'm more than willing to discuss the weaknesses of my plan, but you're going to need to meet me halfway by actually reading my plan.

[Connor MacLeod]

Don't have time to pursue my original discussion, so I'm conceding and withdrawing from the debate. Sorry!

[Azron_Stoma]

They're also full of enough holes that you can fly a starship through them.

Except for the fact that the Death Star didn't have holes, otherwise they wouldn't have gone through turbulance when they flew in. It does however have rudimentary shielding as described in the Death Star novel, so it's a special case.

I've read around here that instead of the frequency-based synchronization Federation ships use to fire out of their shields, there's some evidence that the Empire opens actual holes in their shields to use as gunports. Not a problem most days, but you don't even need a complete hole to get a normal transporter beam through, just a relatively weak spot.

Uh, those holes are only open for maybe a split second at most which is nowhere near enough time to get a beam through. They only open when they fire, and are nearly impossible to predict.

Subspace is a big place, and you can't shield it all without infinite power, due to it covering infinite domains. Just having one domain covered doesn't protect you.

Subspace is big but it's not as "multiple domain" whatever as you might think, sure there are different "depths" to it, but going "deeper" wouldn't get around the shield at all, it would just go under it and when it tries to get back out of subspace it'll ram into said shields. Again there's no need to shield "it all"

I covered this. You seem to have cut it. I have no intention of relying on my own drive systems to deliver my ships to my targets. Isn't it wonderful that Star Wars has so many starships not in the hands of the military-industrial complex? I'm going to be hiring freighters.

Assuming, again, that I can't get in touch with that lovely anti-imperial organization dwelling within the Empire's own borders that would love to negotiate for the kinds of weapons I can provide to help them oust their evil emperor.

Except your weapons wouldn't be of any help whatsoever, and the fact that I highly doubt you would be able to afford any of those freighters unless you save up for a very long time.

Retrive the first one, replicate it.

lmao,

If for some unfathomable reason the resonator turns out to be made of something we can't replicate with sufficient precision

It's nothing remotely unfathomable since there are a wide range of objects/materials etc that cannot be replicated with sufficient precision.

we turn to the transporter. We know that device can serve as a quantum level replicator and can duplicate anything that can be transported. ("Second Chances") And we know that the Stone of Gol can be transported because it has been transported.

Again if the Transporter could be used like that for just anything, then there would be a wide range of materials that wouldn't be in any way valuable.

More of a side-issue, however, since what are the odds my crews are going to have a chance to assassinate Old Prune Face while they're out and about anyway?

Ziltch.

I don't think you read very carefully. I'm more than willing to discuss the weaknesses of my plan, but you're going to need to meet me halfway by actually reading my plan.

I already have, and it's not convincing in the slightest.

[Cesario]

They're also full of enough holes that you can fly a starship through them.

Except for the fact that the Death Star didn't have holes, otherwise they wouldn't have gone through turbulance when they flew in. It does however have rudimentary shielding as described in the Death Star novel, so it's a special case.

Did you want to go into more depth about this "rudimentary shielding" that makes the fact that they flew hostile freighters and starfighters right through them more than once during the battle of Yavin not count against other, ships in the same universe?

I've read around here that instead of the frequency-based synchronization Federation ships use to fire out of their shields, there's some evidence that the Empire opens actual holes in their shields to use as gunports. Not a problem most days, but you don't even need a complete hole to get a normal transporter beam through, just a relatively weak spot.

Uh, those holes are only open for maybe a split second at most which is nowhere near enough time to get a beam through. They only open when they fire,

Interesting. I didn't know this much detail was known about their gunport mechanism for their shields. Was this also in the Thrawn books you mentioned earlier, or was there a different source for this?

I mean, since this is your primary argument for normal transporters not being able to penetrate your side's shields, ever, no matter what.

and are nearly impossible to predict.

Prediction is fairly easy when you have a record of when they opened gunports. Future briefings are wonderful things.

Subspace is a big place, and you can't shield it all without infinite power, due to it covering infinite domains. Just having one domain covered doesn't protect you.

Subspace is big but it's not as "multiple domain" whatever as you might think, sure there are different "depths" to it, but going "deeper" wouldn't get around the shield at all, it would just go under it and when it tries to get back out of subspace it'll ram into said shields. Again there's no need to shield "it all"

I think you're knowledge of hypergeometry is a bit flawed. Imagine for a moment that the universe is two-dimensional. Your ship is a square. Your enemy has a weapon that can go under the page you're living on to strike at you bypassing your square armor.

Normally, you have a circle you put around your ship as a shield, but now you need to shield yourself from above and below too. So, with the same sort of line technology, how long of a line do you need to create a barrier that the enemy won't be able to penetrate in the third dimension?

If you thought about this carefully, you would realize that there is no length of line that can be provided to stop the enemy weapon. Thus it requires infinite energy to shield every subspace domain.

I covered this. You seem to have cut it. I have no intention of relying on my own drive systems to deliver my ships to my targets. Isn't it wonderful that Star Wars has so many starships not in the hands of the military-industrial complex? I'm going to be hiring freighters.

Assuming, again, that I can't get in touch with that lovely anti-imperial organization dwelling within the Empire's own borders that would love to negotiate for the kinds of weapons I can provide to help them oust their evil emperor.

Except your weapons wouldn't be of any help whatsoever,

Oh, I have weapons that will make a difference, alright. They're the sort of weapons that would make hardened terrorists blanch, and put the Death Star to shame. That's why they don't see much use in Star Trek. Because even the bad guys in Star Trek know better than to go around blowing up habitable worlds, and habitable worlds are the least of the potential targets.

Trilithium torpedos
One area of technological capability where the Federation has a meaningful advantage over the Galactic Empire is, ironically, in the area of strategic superweapons. While the empire can destroy planets with a space station the size of a moon, the federation can supernova stars with a weapon that can be fired out of a standard torpedo launcher. Such a device was used by the El-Aurian Soren in an attempt to alter the path of the energy ribbon he called the Nexus. Dominion agents attempted to utilize a similar device to trigger a supernova in the Bajoran sun in order to wipe out the joint Federation, Klingon, and Romulan Fleet. Trilithium weapons are well known and understood by Federation engineers, to the point where the abovementioned Soren felt it beneficial to abduct the federation engineer Gerodi LaForge in order to interrogate him about his knowledge of trilithium weapons despite the fact that Soren had already developed and deployed one such weapon at that time.

The Genesis Device
Originally envisioned as a planetary terraforming tool, the Genesis device caused significant political tensions between the Federation and the Klingon Empire due to the possibility of the device's use as a weapon of mass destruction, specifically its capability of eliminating and replacing the entire biosphere of a planet with a blank template. The original Genesis device caused an unexpected effect when it created a habitable planet out of the nebular gasses it was detonated in. While this planet proved unstable, it is unclear whether the instability (and subsequent detonation) of the so-called Genesis planet would occur in any planetary body it was used on, or if it was a unique side-effect of this particular misuse of the Genesis effect, the capacity of the Genesis device to devastate Imperial worlds ought to be obvious, what with its capacity to cause planetary scale effects. While presumed lost technology due to the scientists who created it having died in the incident that also saw the destruction of the prototype; the research notes, sensor logs, and of course, base technologies have been available to the federation for decades. Indeed, a protomatter device bearing remarkable similarities to the Genesis device was once utilized by a federation scientist to reignite a dead star. If all else fails, time travel can be employed to retrieve the plans and specifications. Getting the device past the planetary shields of Imperial Worlds will be a challenge, requiring either one of the delivery technologies mentioned elsewhere (such as the dimensional Inverter), or subterfuge, but the possibility of using it to wipe out the political or industrial capacity of entire enemy worlds should not be abandoned due to the mere difficulty of delivery.

The Soloton Wave Generator
Captain Picard, in command of the USS Enterprise-D was at one point called on to assist in the testing of a revolutionary new propulsion system known as the Soloton Wave. Due to an unexpected subspace phenomenon, the Soloton Wave began expanding logarithmically in energy as it progressed along its path, to the point where it threatened to destroy a significant portion of the planet that was supposed to serve as the destination for the vessel propelled by the Soloton Wave. Only a spread of photon torpedoes thrown in the path of the Soloton Wave by the Enterprise before it reached its destination prevented the planet's destruction at the hands of this superluminal subspace effect. Weaponizing the Soloton Wave generator, and installing them at fixed Federation planets and outposts, the federation will be able to prevent the Empire from establishing a permanent beachhead in the Milky Way. Due to the need for the weapon to build up its energy as the wave travels through space, it is unlikely the soloton wave generator would be useful as anything other than a long-range strategic weapon.

Anti-time Eruption
As Captain Picard learned during one of his interactions with the Q, an inverse Tachyon Pulse initiated at the same spatial coordinates in three different points in the time line (which can be accessed by a single ship utilizing the warp slingshot maneuver) can trigger an anti-time eruption which will expand backwards in time destroying at the very least a significant portion of a galaxy, and possibly more. The only known remedy for the anti-time eruption is the use of a static warp bubble, and due to the Empire lacking Warp technology, they will be unable to implement that plan. The downside is that triggering an anti-time eruption even in the enemy galaxy runs the risk of the resulting anomaly growing enough as it travels backward in time to encompass the Milky Way galaxy as well. This is a tactic of last resort, and I hesitate to even bring this one to the table considering the risk of complete destruction of the universe, but only by considering all of our options can we make a truly informed decision on which of those options we wish to take.

Biogenic Weapons
Outlawed by federation law and interplanetary treaties, Biogenic weapons represent one of the most brutal and devastating attacks that can be delivered to another civilization. Deploying a biogenic weapon on an imperial world means not just wiping out all life on that world, but also spreading that destruction to all of that world's trading partners. In a civilization with so vast and active an interstellar economy, large numbers of planets can be infected before the Empire realizes what has happened and been able to put up an effective quarantine. Ordinary biological weapons would afford the Empire some protection by virtue of the diverse species that would need to be effected, but biogenic weapons infect indiscriminately, and can be tailored to kill at any speed we desire for optimal destruction. Obviously this is not the sort of weapon to be used lightly, but considering the enemy's known tendency to utilize superweapons, and our relatively small size, we must keep all options in mind, even as we weigh the consequences of using some of them.

Nanotechnology Weapons
During their temporary alliance with the Borg Collective in the war against species 8472, the Starship Voyager jointly developed nanotech weapons. Technology provided by the Borg and replicated with Voyager's resources included a delivery system consisting of a warhead capable of dispersing nanomachines throughout a radius of several lightyears, while this cloud of nanomachines retained sufficient density for this to serve as an effective weapon. Indeed, the modified borg nanoprobes proved so frighteningly effective that species 8472 (a species known to have deployed planet-destroying weapons in their conflict with the Borg) called off their invasion of our universe after only a single demonstration of this weapon's capability. While in this particular instance a vulnerability of the 8472 bioships was exploited, other nanotechnology weapons can be utilized against Imperial targets, whether this means a nanobot colony infesting their ships and interfering with their systems, entire solar systems infected with biogenic weapons manufactured on location by the nanobots, or some other application, this technology could make a big difference in our ability to counter-attack. Even if this process proves unfeasible when dealing with shielded targets like war fleets, the proven speed of deployment and effectiveness of this technology makes it particularly well suited to surprise attacks and attacks on softer planetary targets.

I've said this before, but the Star Trek universe is a Cold War analogy. As a result, it's full of mind-bogglingly powerful weapons that any sane human being in their situation would never use.

Just because I don't like to play the superweapon dick-waving game doesn't mean I don't know how.

and the fact that I highly doubt you would be able to afford any of those freighters unless you save up for a very long time.

Luke signed on with a high end smuggler for what he considered an exorbitant price that he managed to pay for by selling his hovercar. The federation has hovercars.

Though honestly, I still think Dermal Regenerators, organ replicators, and the like would be far more valuable as trade goods.

Retrive the first one, replicate it.

lmao,

Is there something odd about this proposal you'd like to share with the rest of the class?

If for some unfathomable reason the resonator turns out to be made of something we can't replicate with sufficient precision

It's nothing remotely unfathomable since there are a wide range of objects/materials etc that cannot be replicated with sufficient precision.

Yes there are. What evidence is there that the psionic resonator is such an object?

we turn to the transporter. We know that device can serve as a quantum level replicator and can duplicate anything that can be transported. ("Second Chances") And we know that the Stone of Gol can be transported because it has been transported.

Again if the Transporter could be used like that for just anything,

It can't be used like that for just anything. There are a number of substances in Trek that are too volitile to be transported and have to be shipped by shuttlecraft.

then there would be a wide range of materials that wouldn't be in any way valuable.

There are a wide range of materials that aren't in any way valuable.

More of a side-issue, however, since what are the odds my crews are going to have a chance to assassinate Old Prune Face while they're out and about anyway?

Ziltch.

Which calls into question why you're working so hard to have the psionic resonator disqualified if my crews are never going to get the chance to use it anyway.

I don't think you read very carefully. I'm more than willing to discuss the weaknesses of my plan, but you're going to need to meet me halfway by actually reading my plan.

I already have, and it's not convincing in the slightest.

If you'd read carefully, you'd have known about the freighters without me needing to repeat myself, chum.

[Imperial528]

Did you want to go into more depth about this "rudimentary shielding" that makes the fact that they flew hostile freighters and starfighters right through them more than once during the battle of Yavin not count against other, ships in the same universe?

The Death Star 1 shields were a special case. The big issue with the death star was that you basically have the following requirements: A giant battle station, a planet-destroying super weapon, and shields to protect both of them, all in one package. However, it was found out during construction that, given the size of the reactor, you can only have two of the three working at full capacity. So, it was decided that since it was already heavily armed and armored, having sub-standard shielding would not be an issue, especially since where there would be holes in the main shield grid only things like snub fighters could pass through, nothing that could hope to actually do real damage to the Death Star's vital systems.
That is, of course, unless they have the plans. Ooops.... (I get this information from the novel Death Star)

I'd like to note that there have been cases of starfighters being destroyed by shields in the past, such as in Ep. I, where when attacking the Droid Control Ship several naboo star fighters break up while trying to get through the shields. Notice that these are the shields of a commercial bulk-freighter that had a bunch of turbolasers slapped on to it, not military-grade shields.

[mutanthamster]

1. Star Fleet - get rid of all of the weapons introduced in STTNG onwards. In STTOS hand phasers disintegrated your enemy not just knocked him over and they seemed incapable of missing. Ship phasers could destroy planets, battles took place over vast distances and photon torpedoes affected vast areas of space. Oh, and bring back the mini skirts.

2. Star Wars - Darth Vader only needs to do one thing to make the Empire unbeatable. Turn back to the light side of the Force and become a power for good. Oh, and introduce mini skirts.

[Cesario]

Did you want to go into more depth about this "rudimentary shielding" that makes the fact that they flew hostile freighters and starfighters right through them more than once during the battle of Yavin not count against other, ships in the same universe?

The Death Star 1 shields were a special case. The big issue with the death star was that you basically have the following requirements: A giant battle station, a planet-destroying super weapon, and shields to protect both of them, all in one package. However, it was found out during construction that, given the size of the reactor, you can only have two of the three working at full capacity. So, it was decided that since it was already heavily armed and armored, having sub-standard shielding would not be an issue, especially since where there would be holes in the main shield grid only things like snub fighters could pass through, nothing that could hope to actually do real damage to the Death Star's vital systems.
That is, of course, unless they have the plans. Ooops.... (I get this information from the novel Death Star)

I'd like to note that there have been cases of starfighters being destroyed by shields in the past, such as in Ep. I, where when attacking the Droid Control Ship several naboo star fighters break up while trying to get through the shields. Notice that these are the shields of a commercial bulk-freighter that had a bunch of turbolasers slapped on to it, not military-grade shields.

I'll agree that the Death Star 1 was a special case. The rebel alliance specifically noted that they were optimizing the Death Star 1's defenses to protect against large capital ships and largely ignoring the idea of a fighter threat.

Your "two out of three" comment confuses me. How is "a giant battlestation" not working at full capacity when it's shields and planet-destroying superweapon are both online? That seemed to be a fairly good combination in Episode 6 with the Death Star 2.

1. Star Fleet - get rid of all of the weapons introduced in STTNG onwards. In STTOS hand phasers disintegrated your enemy not just knocked him over and they seemed incapable of missing. Ship phasers could destroy planets, battles took place over vast distances and photon torpedoes affected vast areas of space. Oh, and bring back the mini skirts.

Phasers can still disintegrate people in TNG. There's just rarely a reason to bother doing so. Stun is a great feature, and even killing without a total disintegration is still handy from time-to-time. (Like, for instance, when you want to loot the bodies.)

Hell, in Ensigns of Command, we see a standard hand phaser disintegrate a fairly large aqueduct as a show of power. (Has that incident been used for energy scaling around here that anyone knows of?)

And there is one feature that I think we'd be remiss in removing. Modern phasers have a wide-beam setting. (This should, in fact, be explained to every officer in my new Starfleet, though, since this feature is so often forgotten.)

I don't recall any planets being destroyed by TOS shipboard phasers. Can you give an episode reference for that? I know they can kill gods with them, but I wasn't aware of any planets being taken out.

I'd suggest that the greater ranges in TOS were likely a result of slower ships on the whole. If you can't maneuver very well, it's a lot easier to shoot you from a greater distance. Evasive maneuvers make it really hard to hit ships at significant ranges with subluminal weapons and superluminal sensors.

Not even sure what you're talking about with the photon torpedoes.

But I'm with you all the way on the miniskirts.

2. Star Wars - Darth Vader only needs to do one thing to make the Empire unbeatable. Turn back to the light side of the Force and become a power for good. Oh, and introduce mini skirts.

Unless I misunderstood the OP, Vader is gone by the time you're put in charge.