Time travel is a legitimate tactic.

[Batman]

And this is why I generally hate time travel stories.

In The Time Machine, Hardigan's invention of the time machine was a DIRECT result of his fiance's death, and thus why he could not use it to alter her death, because if she lived the machine would not have been invented.

Except the very fact that he could go back and try to prevent her death means the machine already exists anyway. Why would it poof out of existence just because Hardigan manages to save his fiance? I know the story of that movie kinda hinges on it, but that doesn't make it any more logical.

[TOSDOC]

And this is why I generally hate time travel stories.

In The Time Machine, Hardigan's invention of the time machine was a DIRECT result of his fiance's death, and thus why he could not use it to alter her death, because if she lived the machine would not have been invented.

Except the very fact that he could go back and try to prevent her death means the machine already exists anyway. Why would it poof out of existence just because Hardigan manages to save his fiance? I know the story of that movie kinda hinges on it, but that doesn't make it any more logical.

I know, it's written like a Victorian Final Destination. I don't understand why he didn't just handcuff her to him and drag her back to his own present to live happily ever after. But hey, the uber-Morlock's brain is so swollen it sticks out funny, so he must know what he's talking about...

[TheHammer]

And this is why I generally hate time travel stories.

In The Time Machine, Hardigan's invention of the time machine was a DIRECT result of his fiance's death, and thus why he could not use it to alter her death, because if she lived the machine would not have been invented.

Except the very fact that he could go back and try to prevent her death means the machine already exists anyway. Why would it poof out of existence just because Hardigan manages to save his fiance? I know the story of that movie kinda hinges on it, but that doesn't make it any more logical.

That's why the very concept of single-timeline time travel falls apart. Every attempt at it leaves it in sci-fi tends to be done very messy, with a paradox destroying timelines, or with the idea that the time traveller ends up becoming part of the history he or she already remembers. The Many worlds theory in Star Trek makes their form of "time travel" work because the travellers don't actually change their own history, they simply become part of the history of a parallel universe.

[Aharon]

@TheHammer
Time Travel within a singe timeline could look like this (from an article on causal universes by Yudkowsky), using the Potterverse time travel s an example:

If a time machine does allow for changing history, it's easy to imagine how to compute it; you could easily write a computer program which would simulate that universe and its time travel, given sufficient computing power. You would store the state of the universe in RAM and simulate it under the programmed 'laws of physics'. Every nanosecond, say, you'd save a copy of the universe's state to disk. When the Time-Changer was activated at 9pm, you'd retrieve the saved state of the universe from one hour ago at 8pm, load it into RAM, and then insert the Time-Changer and its user in the appropriate place. This would, of course, dump the rest of the universe from 9pm into oblivion - no processing would continue onward from that point, which is the same as ending that world and killing everyone in it.

This would allow time travel specifically to change the past. Of course, time travel was never shown to work this way in Trek.

The very scenario you described illustrates two separate timelines. I realize that in some scifi implementations that the original timeline is destroyed, but that leaves some rather sloppy loose ends with the paradox of how could a time traveler from a destroyed universe still exist if his timeline was destroyed before his birth? I stand by the assertion that the only way a single timeline scenario can exist with time travel is if all of history already accounts for every incident of said time travel and changing the past is impossible - the traveller would simply become part of the history they already know and remember.

I don't think it describes two separate timelines. Basically, the part of history happened - up to the point of time travel, when this universe ceases to exist and goes back to an earlier state. It doesn't continue, the changes made by the time traveler mean it doesn't happen. Concerning the paradox: I imagine it similar to being at a different place - when there's an earthquake in Turkey, it doesn't affect me, despite me having been there in the past. When the past doesn't exist anymore, it doesn't affect me - I've only been there in the past.

[TheHammer]

@TheHammer
Time Travel within a singe timeline could look like this (from an article on causal universes by Yudkowsky), using the Potterverse time travel s an example:

If a time machine does allow for changing history, it's easy to imagine how to compute it; you could easily write a computer program which would simulate that universe and its time travel, given sufficient computing power. You would store the state of the universe in RAM and simulate it under the programmed 'laws of physics'. Every nanosecond, say, you'd save a copy of the universe's state to disk. When the Time-Changer was activated at 9pm, you'd retrieve the saved state of the universe from one hour ago at 8pm, load it into RAM, and then insert the Time-Changer and its user in the appropriate place. This would, of course, dump the rest of the universe from 9pm into oblivion - no processing would continue onward from that point, which is the same as ending that world and killing everyone in it.

This would allow time travel specifically to change the past. Of course, time travel was never shown to work this way in Trek.

The very scenario you described illustrates two separate timelines. I realize that in some scifi implementations that the original timeline is destroyed, but that leaves some rather sloppy loose ends with the paradox of how could a time traveler from a destroyed universe still exist if his timeline was destroyed before his birth? I stand by the assertion that the only way a single timeline scenario can exist with time travel is if all of history already accounts for every incident of said time travel and changing the past is impossible - the traveller would simply become part of the history they already know and remember.

I don't think it describes two separate timelines. Basically, the part of history happened - up to the point of time travel, when this universe ceases to exist and goes back to an earlier state. It doesn't continue, the changes made by the time traveler mean it doesn't happen. Concerning the paradox: I imagine it similar to being at a different place - when there's an earthquake in Turkey, it doesn't affect me, despite me having been there in the past. When the past doesn't exist anymore, it doesn't affect me - I've only been there in the past.

Excuse me, but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Your "Earthquake in Turkey" scenario, like your computer program scenario simply don't jive with the concept of time travel. If your past doesn't exist, then YOU don't exist, at least not as you presently are now.

The problem with a paradox is that it is essentially an infinite loop: Say you invent a time machine with the idea that will you go back in time to change a specific event in history and succeed. Because you succeeded your future self would have no reason to go back and change history and thus wont create the time machine and wont time travel. Because the future you never time travelled he never changed history, thus you were again motivated to create the time machine and go back and change history and the cycle repeats.

Because of that, the concept of time travel is handled very poorly by most sci-fi. However, given that the "many worlds theory" was a documented fact in the trek-verse (TNG:parallels), it would mean that Trek actually handles it quite well as a concept of dimension shifting rather than time travel within one's own lifetime and avoids paradoxical infinite loops.

[Aharon]

I understand where you are coming from, and this is indeed the usual concept in science fiction. I just don't get why you think the model I propose makes no sense, could you go into a bit more detail? It seems logical to me.

[TheHammer]

The idea that the time traveller somehow exists outside of the consequences of their own time travel exploits in a "single timeline" scenario is where the model breaks down.

If you built a time machine and went back in time, anything you did in an attempt to "change history", would in fact not change anything you remember at all. You may have an impact on events of course, but from your perspective you will only be fulfilling the history you already know. If you did succeed in changing anything, your motivation for having wanted to go back and change it would cease to exist. Further, say for whatever reason you go back and kill your grandfather before your father was born, resulting in your having never been born. If that were the case, then how could you have invented a time machine to go back and kill your grandfather? That's the paradox with the single timeline. Any event that you wish to change would be absolutely futile.

I really don't know how else to explain it. The multiple timelines of the many worlds theory is the only thing that does explain why main characters remember events differently when they "return" to their "own time", despite everyone else including the very history books they studied as children having been changed.

[Korgeta]

Time Travel would be a useless ploy if the empire were based at the other end of the galaxy, undiscovered, had the federation in advance and invade. It would be more useful if the two empires were closer to each other and had some knowlege of each other. still I would expect section 31 to try this and rather then send starships, would send an assisination attempt on palpatine. It would result in choas but as long as the federation is 'predicted' to be unscathed by the choas then the likes of section 31 would use time travel.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I would expect section 31 to try this and rather then send starships, would send an assisination attempt on palpatine. It would result in choas but as long as the federation is 'predicted' to be unscathed by the choas then the likes of section 31 would use time travel.

So Section 31 tries to save the Federation from a loosing war by assasinating Palpatine in the past. Which would leave a lot of Imperials royally pissed off and could well start the war in the first place. Which is a hilarious thought actually

[Batman]

The Empire being at the other end of the Galaxy is a problem for the Feds. The Empire? About 8 hour's travel time. The only way the Federation can exist in the same galaxy as the Empire is if they're some moderately useless sector at the ass end of nowhere nobody in the Imperial hierarchy gives a damn about. Which would in turn be quickly annexed by another sector at the ass end of nowhere that still has Wars level technology at its disposal, like the Corporate Sector, the Tion Hegemony, or the Centrality.

[Generalissimo]

When discussing the Guardian of Forever we're likely not actually having a conversation about "conventional" time travel.
Guardian of Forever is a sentient portal across time; I can't adequately describe what mechanism it uses.
Using the magical gateway (best way to describe it) is completely different compared with technological means.
Probably applies to how much the actual timeline is changed.
Altering history with the Guardian is likely easier than common temporal methods.

[Batman]

When discussing the Guardian of Forever we're likely not actually having a conversation about "conventional" time travel.
Guardian of Forever is a sentient portal across time; I can't adequately describe what mechanism it uses.

Then how do you know it's different from any other form of time travel?

Using the magical gateway (best way to describe it) is completely different compared with technological means.

Which you know because of? And since when is the Guardian of Forever not technology?

Probably applies to how much the actual timeline is changed.

As evidenced by?

Altering history with the Guardian is likely easier than common temporal methods.

And that is because of?

[twinsouls]

One could not use the Gaurdian of Forever for specific time travel:

Kirk: Gaurdian, can you change the rate at which time passes?
Gaurdian: No, I was made to show time in this way. I cannot change.

So tell me how you're supposed to use it to "shoot a torpedo onto an ISD"?

Any other time travel methods are useless also because, as some have said, the Empire is still way to far away for the Federation to even get to, and specific historical knowledge about your enemy is needed if you wish to change it. These are huge and most likely impossible obstacles. Plus, creating paradoxes wouldn't be any better than losing a war.

Time travel is not a viable strategy.

[StarSword]

^Friendly warning: posting on a thread that's been dead for over a month is a no-no here.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Its not usually that big a deal in a mostly dead forum like this, the thread was still on the first page, after all.

[Metahive]

Time travel is not a viable tactic for the 24th century Federation, true. The 29th or 31st century Federation however could easily achieve an effortless knockout victory, especially the latter, due to their sophisticated time/space observation and displacement technology. Just find out where Palpatine is at a given moment, grab him and fling him into a black hole. The Empire crumbles, victory.
The very least that has to be admitted about the Empire is that they have no means of defense against this sort of attack, except extremely unreliable and limited Force induced precognition.

^Friendly warning: posting on a thread that's been dead for over a month is a no-no here.

Still fishing for that Mod promotion, eh?

[biostem]

Has the 29th century Federation ever exhibited any sort of trans-galactic travel capability? In that one episode of Voyager, didn't they seek out Seven of Nine because her Borg implants allowed them a degree of communication and tracking they couldn't achieve otherwise, (which is why the recruited her for that mission)?

Also, when has the 29th century Federation used their capabilities to resolve any *real* 24th century Federation problems, the ones that resulted in the defeat of most of the fleet or so forth?

[Ralin]

Time travel is not a viable tactic for the 24th century Federation, true. The 29th or 31st century Federation however could easily achieve an effortless knockout victory, especially the latter, due to their sophisticated time/space observation and displacement technology. Just find out where Palpatine is at a given moment, grab him and fling him into a black hole. The Empire crumbles, victory.

Do you mean grab him via transporter or via time-traveling in and snatching him physically? I actually know next to nothing about this 29th/31st century Federation, so honest question, is there any reason to think they can do this through an energy shield? Because Palpatine seems likely to be behind one pretty much 24/7, whether from a Star Destroyer or his shuttle or from a planetary shield or whatever defenses he has for his palace.

EDIT:

And it hits me that they could just as easily go back to before he was Emperor...now.

But if I remember right there's disagreement on whether that would have any effect, so question stands.

[Metahive]

Do you mean grab him via transporter or via time-traveling in and snatching him physically? I actually know next to nothing about this 29th/31st century Federation, so honest question, is there any reason to think they can do this through an energy shield? Because Palpatine seems likely to be behind one pretty much 24/7, whether from a Star Destroyer or his shuttle or from a planetary shield or whatever defenses he has for his palace.

The 31st century Federation has phasing, TARDIS style space/time compression and space/time displacement technology at its disposal. Conventional shields and armor are never shown to offer any protection against this. The only protection is possessing the same sort of tech. They can also observe time-streams. It should be an easy task for them to find out where Palpatine is at any given moment, snatch him away and dispose of him. If they do it early enough in his life, the Empire will never form since that was pretty much all his doing.

The 31st century also ditched the Temporal Prime Directive, they are pretty casual about manipulating time streams more to their liking. The reason they never do it as freely in the show is because A) their enemies are just as sophisticated on temporal mechanics and B) meddling with their own past may have catastrophic repercussions for the future (as shown in Shockwave). Both of these restrictions fall away when dealing with the Empire. The 31st century Time Meddlers are also immune to the Grandfather Paradox, so their actions will never invalidate themselves through success.

Time travel is a legitimate tactic, just not for Picard's Federation.

[Jedipilot24]

The Sphere Builders in Enterprise could only detect large temporal fluctuations; the fine details were obscured. The 31st century Federation may have been more advanced but all we know about them is what Daniels has said. Yes, Daniels plucked Archer off the Enterprise but it was explained that Archer boarding the Suliban ship would have 'endangered the timeline', meaning that it would have been a large temporal fluctuation. Daniels then failed to foresee the even larger change that resulted from bringing Archer to the 31st century. This means that their methods of analyzing and predicting timestreams, while very advanced, still have limitations.

The Enterprise didn't even have shields so you can't say that shields wouldn't work against it. Shields did work against the 29th century version of the technology; all we have seen of the 31st century version to distinguish it is that its no longer harmful to the travelers.

The further back in Palpatine's history you go, the more his location at any point in time becomes an increasingly fine detail. Archer is easy to grab because both the time and the place have been significantly narrowed and the 31st century Federation would have access to all the necessary records to refine it down even further. But they wouldn't know anything about Palpatine's personal history because they had never before encountered the Empire. Now add in the fact that Palpatine went to considerable lengths to obscure his own personal history; the most the average galactic citizen would have known about their Emperor's background prior to his joining the Senate is that he grew up on the planet Naboo.

Also, it's entirely possible that grabbing Palpy and dumping him in a black hole before he creates the Empire might actually be the wrong thing to do. It would only prevent the Palpy-version of the Empire from being created. If, for example, you somehow grabbed Palpy as a baby and dropped him in a black hole: without Palpy, Darth Plaguius would have chosen someone else to be his apprentice and some version of the Empire would eventually have been created anyway because it wasn't just Palpy's plan, it was the plan of every Sith since Darth Bane. This alternate Empire under an alternate Sith might well prove to be more resilient than Palpy's Empire. Palpy deliberately engineered his Empire to die when he did; but an alternate Sith Lord might not have made that mistake.

This all pure speculation, of course, but it's the same kind of logic used to explain why we shouldn't go back in time to prevent Adolf Hitler from being born: because, for all we know, it could make things a lot worse.

The chaos theory butterflies don't always work in your favor.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The Sphere Builders in Enterprise could only detect large temporal fluctuations; the fine details were obscured. The 31st century Federation may have been more advanced but all we know about them is what Daniels has said. Yes, Daniels plucked Archer off the Enterprise but it was explained that Archer boarding the Suliban ship would have 'endangered the timeline', meaning that it would have been a large temporal fluctuation. Daniels then failed to foresee the even larger change that resulted from bringing Archer to the 31st century. This means that their methods of analyzing and predicting timestreams, while very advanced, still have limitations.

The Enterprise didn't even have shields so you can't say that shields wouldn't work against it. Shields did work against the 29th century version of the technology; all we have seen of the 31st century version to distinguish it is that its no longer harmful to the travelers.

The further back in Palpatine's history you go, the more his location at any point in time becomes an increasingly fine detail. Archer is easy to grab because both the time and the place have been significantly narrowed and the 31st century Federation would have access to all the necessary records to refine it down even further. But they wouldn't know anything about Palpatine's personal history because they had never before encountered the Empire. Now add in the fact that Palpatine went to considerable lengths to obscure his own personal history; the most the average galactic citizen would have known about their Emperor's background prior to his joining the Senate is that he grew up on the planet Naboo.

Also, it's entirely possible that grabbing Palpy and dumping him in a black hole before he creates the Empire might actually be the wrong thing to do. It would only prevent the Palpy-version of the Empire from being created. If, for example, you somehow grabbed Palpy as a baby and dropped him in a black hole: without Palpy, Darth Plaguius would have chosen someone else to be his apprentice and some version of the Empire would eventually have been created anyway because it wasn't just Palpy's plan, it was the plan of every Sith since Darth Bane. This alternate Empire under an alternate Sith might well prove to be more resilient than Palpy's Empire. Palpy deliberately engineered his Empire to die when he did; but an alternate Sith Lord might not have made that mistake.

This all pure speculation, of course, but it's the same kind of logic used to explain why we shouldn't go back in time to prevent Adolf Hitler from being born: because, for all we know, it could make things a lot worse.

The chaos theory butterflies don't always work in your favor.

Assuming you knew about the rule of two, the best time to kill Palpatine would be any time after he killed his master, as well as Darth Maul. Difficult for the Sith to return if none of them are left, but again it's complete speculation what the long term effects would be.

This all pure speculation, of course, but it's the same kind of logic used to explain why we shouldn't go back in time to prevent Adolf Hitler from being born: because, for all we know, it could make things a lot worse.

You only have to look at C&C Red Alert to see what would happen if someone did

[Metahive]

The best time to get rid of Palpatine is right after the start of the Clone Wars, shortly after the first battle of Geonosis. Without Palpatine keeping both sides in relative check the SW galaxy will tear itself apart and be too weak for some time to concentrate on an outside enemy. The 31sters can even interfere further to draw the war out as long and make it as bloody as possible. A galactic civilisation that has reduced itself to rubble isn't much of a threat.

Also, the 31sters have a timeline observatory, even fancier than that of the Krennim with slideshow pictures and videos and stuff. I think they're very well in the position to have a general idea of where to direct their incursions.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

It depends on how much direct control Palpatine has over both sides in the war, since with the disappearance of both sides leader it falls to those lower down the pecking order to decide whether the war is worth continuing or not.

[Jedipilot24]

The best time to get rid of Palpatine is right after the start of the Clone Wars, shortly after the first battle of Geonosis. Without Palpatine keeping both sides in relative check the SW galaxy will tear itself apart and be too weak for some time to concentrate on an outside enemy. The 31sters can even interfere further to draw the war out as long and make it as bloody as possible. A galactic civilisation that has reduced itself to rubble isn't much of a threat.

Also, the 31sters have a timeline observatory, even fancier than that of the Krennim with slideshow pictures and videos and stuff. I think they're very well in the position to have a general idea of where to direct their incursions.

You get rid of Palpatine right after the Battle of Geonosis and guess what happens? Count Dooku conquers the galaxy and establishes his own variation of the Empire. ROTS describes in general terms what Dooku's plan was and without Sidious in the way, Dooku might well have succeeded because there would no longer have been any reason to hold back. Sidious held back both sides to keep the war in an uneasy stalemate for quite a while but if he suddenly up and vanished, Dooku would have no reason to not go all-out.

It depends on how much direct control Palpatine has over both sides in the war, since with the disappearance of both sides leader it falls to those lower down the pecking order to decide whether the war is worth continuing or not.

In this case its Dooku and he was already committed to war; Sidious suddenly vanishing would only make Dooku go all out and actually conquer the Republic. Would make for an interesting Infinities fic.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Would be interesting since we'd end up with droids in control of everything as opposed to clones, would definitely be worth looking at.