A Soverign-class starship vs. a single Z-95 Headhunter

[Col. Crackpot]

What about a squad of Xwings vs. the Sovereign?

thats different. proton torpedoes hit a with a much higher yield than concussion missiles. Also, the X-wing has much better shielding, 4 blasters instead of two. it has more powerful sublight engines (100 MLGT vs 80 MLGT) and a hyperdrive. it depends on how many you consider a squadron.

[StimNeuro]

What about a squad of Xwings vs. the Sovereign?

thats different. proton torpedoes hit a with a much higher yield than concussion missiles. Also, the X-wing has much better shielding, 4 blasters instead of two. it has more powerful sublight engines (100 MLGT vs 80 MLGT) and a hyperdrive. it depends on how many you consider a squadron.

Technically, they are laser cannons, not blasters. According to every X-Wing book, a squadron consists of 3 flights, with each flight consisting of 4 fighters. Though I doubt that X-Wings carry the GT level torps, 24 standard proton torpedoes impacting on the same point of a Sovereign's shields can't be good for it.

[seanrobertson]

I agree. For one thing the Z-95 would not be able to avoid lightspeed phaser beams at typical combat ranges.

Phasers are phasers, right?

We've seen people dodge hand phaser beams. Watch near the end of "Conspiracy," when Riker and Picard start shooting up the worm-controlled guys at Starfleet Command.

People cannot move at significant fractions of light speed on foot. Therefore, phasers propagate much, much slower than c, even those mounted on starships.

It's shields are in the kiloton range whereas the sovergein's phaser is in tens of megaton range.

I agree on the first count, but not on the second. I'd peg her phasers at closer to hundreds of kilotons/sec. or perhaps a megaton/sec. vs. shields. More than enough to win in this context, to be sure, but we've still gotta get the numbers right

[quoet]
Headhunter's ECM won't work against a sovergein as it uses a totaly different subspace based sensors. So sovergein would have 100% accruracy. The winner of this fight would be determined who shoots first. If the Z-95 can hit the sovergein with torpedoes it wins but if sovergein fires first it wins. Since the sovergein outrange's the headhunter by thousands of kilometers it's best bet would be to warp away and fire phasers from 100000 km away.[/quote]

100% accuracy? You need to watch Wayne's Benny Hill video

But ultimately, I agree. If the HH is carrying big enough torpedoes, it could pull out a win. But like most Flame Warriors (tm) here, I think this is a bit of a mismatch, just as I did in the 4 TIE Defenders vs. 6 Sovereigns thread. (At least, I *think* I posted in that thread. I can't remember.)

[Alyeska]

What about a squad of Xwings vs. the Sovereign?

Depends on the X-Wing loadout. Without torpedoes, Sovereign wins. With fighter torpedo systems or ground attack torpedo systems, Sovereign will have a fighting chance. Against space superiority X-Wings with multi role torpedoes, Sovereign goes down. Strike X-Wings with anti-capship torpedoes, Sovereign goes down.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

If the X-Wings missles are any where near Slave 1s...

[Enforcer Talen]

I would expect they are. an xwing is more designed for combat then a firespray.

[StimNeuro]

I would expect they are. an xwing is more designed for combat then a firespray.

On the other hand, Slave One is not an ordinary Firespray patrol craft. It has been heavily modifed and is probably better suited for combat than a standard X-Wing.

[Alyeska]

I would expect they are. an xwing is more designed for combat then a firespray.

On the other hand, Slave One is not an ordinary Firespray patrol craft. It has been heavily modifed and is probably better suited for combat than a standard X-Wing.

This is supported by a story in which Slave-1 took on ~40 Tie fighters and won.

[Master of Ossus]

I would expect they are. an xwing is more designed for combat then a firespray.

On the other hand, Slave One is not an ordinary Firespray patrol craft. It has been heavily modifed and is probably better suited for combat than a standard X-Wing.

This is supported by a story in which Slave-1 took on ~40 Tie fighters and won.

WHAT? I'm not sure I've read that one.

It's abundantly clear, however, that the Slave-1 has been HEAVILY modified from its stock configuration, but I don't see that the missiles it used would have been particularly dependant on the ship firing them. It seemed like a clear case of a Fire-and-Forget weapon, and that conclusion is supported by the AotC ICS.

Now, this leads me to the conclusion that the missile was PROBABLY available to the free market, and thus the military torpedoes and other weapons would be even better (supported further by the active-tracking/targeting systems demonstrated by the atmospheric missiles used by LAAT's during the same film). Obviously, I could be incorrect about this. The weapon may even be a military-missile, but missiles are usually not good when constructed in black-market facilities.

[Alyeska]

WHAT? I'm not sure I've read that one.

Its one of the Tales books, either Tales from the New Republic or Tales from the Empire. Its called "No disintegrations please"

[Illuminatus Primus]

What about a squad of Xwings vs. the Sovereign?

thats different. proton torpedoes hit a with a much higher yield than concussion missiles.

Only according to the games.

[Alyeska]

What about a squad of Xwings vs. the Sovereign?

thats different. proton torpedoes hit a with a much higher yield than concussion missiles.

Only according to the games.

No, it depends on the vehicle platform firing it. Fighter launched missiles are anti-fighter weapons. Fighter launched torpedoes are anti-ship weapons that can double as anti-fighter weapons. The concussion missiles that a VSD fires are just a little bigger IIRC than fighter launched concussion missiles.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No, it depends on the vehicle platform firing it. Fighter launched missiles are anti-fighter weapons. Fighter launched torpedoes are anti-ship weapons that can double as anti-fighter weapons. The concussion missiles that a VSD fires are just a little bigger IIRC than fighter launched concussion missiles.

Fighter launched concussion missiles have been used synonymously with torpedoes as anti-capship weapons. We've seen solely anti-fighter missiles, ground-attack missiles, and anti-atmor missiles.

Fighter-launched torpedoes are, in the case of the X-Wing, usually multi-purpose weapons able to knock out unshielded fighters with a proximity detonation and able to tackle ships up to mid-range transport without any problems. Also often anti-fighter specific/ground attack warheads.

The VSD has assault concussion missile tubes--uber heavy anti-capship concussion missiles.

Really proton torpedoes and concussion missiles just appear to be families of weapons that generally have versions for many of the same roles.

[Ender]

What about a squad of Xwings vs. the Sovereign?

thats different. proton torpedoes hit a with a much higher yield than concussion missiles.

Only according to the games.

And the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology.

[Howedar]

I would expect they are. an xwing is more designed for combat then a firespray.

On the other hand, Slave One is not an ordinary Firespray patrol craft. It has been heavily modifed and is probably better suited for combat than a standard X-Wing.

Slave-1 is also considerably larger.

[Solauren]

AFter some thinking, reading and considering stuff I have read in the past...

Mark 1 Z-95 vs Soverign:
It would take dozens and dozens of them to take down a soverign. Mark 1's lack shields and war-head capacity.

Other Z-95 configurations:
Depends on the warheads, if any. With less then Advanced Proton Torpedoes (ref Tie Fighter Video Game), probably 24 Z-95's being flown by very good pilots. Expect 50% losses min for the Z-95
With APT's, 2 dozen, above average pilots. as above

A Squadron of any ship type that managed to let off a heavy rockets or space bombs would finish the Soverign off (heavy rockets are about 3x the yield of a Proton Torpedoe, and Space Bombs are 6x's or more)


The only starfighters I can think of that could defeat a Soverign 1 on 1 without a doubt would be

Tie Phantom (Rebel Assault 2) Had cloaking shields, and it looked like it had warhead launchers. No launchers, it would take a while, and the the Sov found a way to scan the cloak, good bye Phantom

Tie Defender with Heavy Rockets

A Missile Boat with a Rocket/Magpulse warhead mix would probably eat a Soverign for lunch. Fully charge the shields, dumps all power to its engines and hits the SLAM (I believe that's a maximum rating of 4 1/2 times an X-wing, or 3 times a Tie Defender), keeps putting shield power to the lasers for the SLAM to drain, weaves and dodges like mad and fires off all 10 Magpulse warheads, then switches between dual rockets and dual magpulse warheads. Once it's launchers are empty, it gets the hell out of range. If the Soverign is not destroy at that point (i.e the magpulse weapons didn't work and it shot down the rockets) the Missile boat is screwed however with only one starfighter level weapon.

Actually, one thing I have to wonder is, how would a flight of the Robotic Tie Fighters, that I believe are from "X-wing Alliance" or "Secret Weapons of the Empire" (I haven't played the game myself, sorry) that reportedly had a ship level Turbolaser mounted on it's wings do?

[Sarevok]

phaser beams have been demonstrated time and time again to travel at far less the speed of light.

Well phasers do seem to travel very fast. Whenever they hit targets on a planet the beam reached its mark in less than a second. This would indicate speeds if not equal to lightspeed.

evilcat4000 wrote:
It's shields are in the kiloton range whereas the sovergein's phaser is in tens of megaton range.


you wanna back that up?

The kiloton level shield strength for the headhunter comes from evidence seen in episode 2. Sovergein's phasers can destroy ships that can withstand multiple hits from photon torpedoes which have 64 megaton yield. This indicates that the phasers must be in the megaton range. For further evidence see the main site where Mr Wong puts phasers in the hundreds of terawatt range.

evilcat4000 wrote:
Headhunter's ECM won't work against a sovergein as it uses a totaly different subspace based sensors.


speculation backed by trecknobabble?

No. An electronic counter measure only effects sensors it was designed to jam. Therefore a radar jammer won't work against a sonar or a lider. Star Wars ships use hyperspace based sensors so their ecm technology will only affect hyperwave sensors and not subspace sensors used in the sovergein.

would have 100% accruracy.

evilcat4000 wrote:
So sovergein would have 100% accruracy.


NO it doesn't! where in all of trek has a ship ever fired on a smaller more manuverable opponent and hit with 100% accuracy? nowhere!

The term 100 % was used in a metaphorical sense. It implied that short of errors in the sovergein's targeting system nothing else will effect it's accuracy. Since the headhunter's jammers wont work the sovergein will theoritacly have 100 % accuracy.

i don't think you can say that. first of all z-95's don't carry torps, they carry concussion missiles. and i don't know the low end yield for concussions of the top of my head (anyone?)

Concussion missiles have a 190 megaton yield. That is stronger than a quantam torpedo. And while the missiles do not have the gigaton evel yields of a proton torpedo they would spell death for the sovergein should they get past the phaser fire.

You were doing ok until you made that rediculous claim that a Sovereign has 100% accuracy against a target, let alone a target as small and maneuverable as a Z-95 at 100,000km. I suggest that you read on the main website about Star Trek accuracy.

This is what happened in voyger episode "Human Error".

Janeway orders up the usual. "Evasive maneuvers."

As good as Tom is, the missiles are very sophisticated, and very fast. "It's matching our course. Eight million kilometers."

"Can you get a weapon's lock?" Janeway asks.

Ain't no thing, Tuvok says. "Affirmative."

Coolness. Light that candle! "Photon torpedoes. Full spread."

Tuvok fires the torpedoes, but the warhead spits out a cool little Spidey-Web that detonates them before they can do any damage. "Our torpedoes have been neutralized," Tuvok announces.

Of course, of course...that would have been too easy. Besides, this is Seven of Nine's answer to "Hollow Pursuits," she's been chewed out for letting the holodeck get in the way of her duties...so she's got to have a hand in the ultimate solution...right? Redemption, honor, glory, and all that.

Tom ticks off the closing distance of the warhead. "Five million kilometers."

Clearly federation weopen ranges are well into millions of kilometers. And that too against something as small and fast as a missile.

[Ender]

Well phasers do seem to travel very fast. Whenever they hit targets on a planet the beam reached its mark in less than a second. This would indicate speeds if not equal to lightspeed.

Which is why people and ships going far slower can dodge them, right?

The kiloton level shield strength for the headhunter comes from evidence seen in episode 2. Sovergein's phasers can destroy ships that can withstand multiple hits from photon torpedoes which have 64 megaton yield. This indicates that the phasers must be in the megaton range. For further evidence see the main site where Mr Wong puts phasers in the hundreds of terawatt range.

Hundreds of terawatts would be KT.

No. An electronic counter measure only effects sensors it was designed to jam. Therefore a radar jammer won't work against a sonar or a lider. Star Wars ships use hyperspace based sensors so their ecm technology will only affect hyperwave sensors and not subspace sensors used in the sovergein.

SW also uses EM wave and subspace sensors and ECM as well. Plus their sensors get fucked up by all kinds of stuff that is just lying around normally.

would have 100% accruracy.

They don't have 100% accuracy when they are not being jammed, why the hell would they when they are?

The term 100 % was used in a metaphorical sense.

Backpedal faster son

It implied that short of errors in the sovergein's targeting system nothing else will effect it's accuracy.

The Defiant must have had one hell of alot of targeting errors then, despite being a top of the line warship going agaisnt an anchient ship far more massive when it faced off with the lakota

Since the headhunter's jammers wont work the sovergein will theoritacly have 100 % accuracy.

Conclusions based on erronius assumptions are false.

Concussion missiles have a 190 megaton yield. That is stronger than a quantam torpedo. And while the missiles do not have the gigaton evel yields of a proton torpedo they would spell death for the sovergein should they get past the phaser fire.

*sigh*
1) Those missiles are far larger then could be crammed into the Headhunters frame.
2) By the time of Endor, warheads have been shrunk to the point where a capital killer GT ranget torp can be carried, but the standard torp is not that big. By Endor they are as strong as the Slave 1 missile, but early production run Headhunters would have been able to carry torps only about the size and strength of that carried by the N1.

This is what happened in voyger episode "Human Error".

Janeway orders up the usual. "Evasive maneuvers."

As good as Tom is, the missiles are very sophisticated, and very fast. "It's matching our course. Eight million kilometers."

"Can you get a weapon's lock?" Janeway asks.

Ain't no thing, Tuvok says. "Affirmative."

Coolness. Light that candle! "Photon torpedoes. Full spread."

Tuvok fires the torpedoes, but the warhead spits out a cool little Spidey-Web that detonates them before they can do any damage. "Our torpedoes have been neutralized," Tuvok announces.

Of course, of course...that would have been too easy. Besides, this is Seven of Nine's answer to "Hollow Pursuits," she's been chewed out for letting the holodeck get in the way of her duties...so she's got to have a hand in the ultimate solution...right? Redemption, honor, glory, and all that.

Tom ticks off the closing distance of the warhead. "Five million kilometers."

Clearly federation weopen ranges are well into millions of kilometers. And that too against something as small and fast as a missile.

So they can peg things coming at them at a steady velocity on a set vector from long range... you do realize that is totally irrelevent here since that won't be the case, right?

[Master of Ossus]

About this 100% accuracy thing: Darth Wong and I have both pointed out in the past that the vaunted accuracy of ST ships is largely the result of their unwillingness to fire unless virtually guaranteed a hit. Against fast, maneuverable targets UFP ships maintain an excellent accuracy rating, but their rates of fire are SEVERELY reduced when compared with targetting a much larger, slower-moving capital ship. For instance, in "Dragon's Teeth," Voyager had such difficulty in targeting a group of small ships that it managed a pitiful rate of fire, and this phenomena also explains the tactical significance of Peregrine fighters, and other ships designed to fill that role in combat.

Last time this debate was handled, Darth Wong had a great rehotorical question. "Would a marksman brag about being able to hit the bulls-eye 99.999999% of the time from three feet away?" Why are ST ships given such respect for hitting fast, maneuvering targets when they wait for perfect target locks and accept a SEVERELY reduced rate of fire by doing so?

I have little doubt that a Sovereign class ship's phasers would demonstrate accuracy well in excess of 90% when firing on a Z-95, but that figure is meaningless if they never get a chance to fire. I also have little doubt that the Z-95 would be fast enough and maneuverable enough to whittle the Sovereign's RoF down to almost nothing.

[The Silence and I]

MoO, I agree with you for the most part. I think the upgraded Sovereign has had some drastic improvements made to its targeting systems, based on Nemesis. The Ent-D would almost never hit the Z-95, as its RoF would go way down, as you said. However, the Ent-E seems to able to get target locks far faster than any SF ship I have seen, and RoF-in my opinion-will not suffer to a great extent. I do stress, however, that this only applies to the Sovereigns-I do not claim this for any other class of Federation ship (fortunately, see thread title ).

I personally doubt a Z-95 can carry a large enough warhead to make a difference, and would be shot down quickly anyway (they are really slow in space). If it can carry heavy weapons it is another story, but it wouldn't anyway as it is used in backwater areas.

[Master of Ossus]

MoO, I agree with you for the most part. I think the upgraded Sovereign has had some drastic improvements made to its targeting systems, based on Nemesis. The Ent-D would almost never hit the Z-95, as its RoF would go way down, as you said. However, the Ent-E seems to able to get target locks far faster than any SF ship I have seen, and RoF-in my opinion-will not suffer to a great extent. I do stress, however, that this only applies to the Sovereigns-I do not claim this for any other class of Federation ship (fortunately, see thread title ).

I see what you are saying, but I don't see that the "Nemesis" incidents depicted significantly faster tracking systems. Remember how the ship can fire where the Scimitar fires from, but it cannot target where the Scimitar is moving, even if its previous shots have left the ships temporarily visible on the visible spectrum.

I personally doubt a Z-95 can carry a large enough warhead to make a difference, and would be shot down quickly anyway (they are really slow in space). If it can carry heavy weapons it is another story, but it wouldn't anyway as it is used in backwater areas.

I agree. I think it would take a long time, with the Z-95 flying around a lot and the Sovereign scoring few hits, but I think that the Z-95 highly limited ability to damage its opponent without torpedoes will buy the Sovereign enough time to score the deciding hit.

[Col. Crackpot]

It would also be safe to assume that standard ties and tie interceptors would fare even worse than the z-95's. They have no shielding and a much more fragile hull. even bombers, despite having the benefit of a much more robust spaceframe, would have a bit of trouble staying alive long enough to get their payload off The lack of shields as well as poor manuverability for a fighter would hamper any sucess without sufficient numbers.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology.

The books have clearly shown anti-capship heavy concussions such as the VSD's assault concussion missiles.

[Ender]

And the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology.

The books have clearly shown anti-capship heavy concussions such as the VSD's assault concussion missiles.

And they also show that the proton torpedoes of the same scale are still stronger.

CM's are weaker.