The Prometheus - what we think

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What's the verdict on the USS Prometheus' design?

Poll ended at 2002-09-12 03:21pm

It kicks ass. The multi-vectral attack mode is the only sensible course of action and should be incorporated in every new SF design.
3
7%
It looks pretty, and the effects are solid. I don't care much beyond that.
10
22%
It's okay, I guess. Looks much like any other Star Trek ship.
6
13%
This is one of the most stupid designs in the history of Trek, and makes zero sense.
27
59%
 
Total votes: 46

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Post by Failed Glory »

Ender wrote:You know what I find really sad about the Promie?

THe Trekkies have since come back saying that it was just a test vehicle (true) and that the following changes were made (these are all untrue)

It was scaled up to 500+ meters
It lost the multi vector things, but kept the 3 warp cores, giving it uberweapons
It carries fighters now

I have also seen a few more additions (defiant style cloaking shiled, double weave phasers ignore shields etc) but those are always there.
At least they listened to reality and made the ship a little more effective, in their minds.

The new version would be the equivalent of what? Whatever it is, it's still just a plasteel target waiting to be wasted by a turbolaser.
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Post by paladin »

Ender wrote:You know what I find really sad about the Promie?

THe Trekkies have since come back saying that it was just a test vehicle (true) and that the following changes were made (these are all untrue)

It was scaled up to 500+ meters
It lost the multi vector things, but kept the 3 warp cores, giving it uberweapons
It carries fighters now

I have also seen a few more additions (defiant style cloaking shiled, double weave phasers ignore shields etc) but those are always there.
I can understand getting rid of the multi vector attack system. That just makes the ship into 3 targets instead of 1.

Multiple warp cores is something StarFleet should have include in their ships from the start.

But FIGHTERS??? If it's the fighters that are like a cheaper version of the Defiant then they should be classified as "torpedo boats." However, if the fighters are trying to be like a SW fighters then you should just shot the pilots to save time. A SW fighter designed using ST tech would just be a "flying coffin."
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Post by Mr Bean »

Well what if they where a special crack susided attack squadren

IE fly in close turn around and throw your shoe at the warp core in back :P

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Post by NecronLord »

Feds "Peoples front of the UFP suicide squardron, attack"

Imperial Captain "flee! nothing can stand up to the uber power of slef destructing warpcores!"

Technican "What if we just HTL them sir?"

Captain "Oh, yes, errm, FIRE!"
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Post by NecronLord »

Ah yes, it was IN two days, not FOR two days,

p.s. Should I keep this avatar Bean? i.e. can you see the necronlord?
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Post by Eleas »

NecronLord wrote:Ah yes, it was IN two days, not FOR two days,

p.s. Should I keep this avatar Bean? i.e. can you see the necronlord?
Can't speak for Bean here, but I just see a red light of some kind. Thought it was supposed to depict a red giant star.
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Post by NecronLord »

Yeah, but the contrast is off, and I shouls have offset it more, Here's the image I started with

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It was going to be his head and staff, with the star between them


I think it came out wrong
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Post by NecronLord »

I think that one's much better now.

Not as weird as some of the necron artwork with green Giants in the background.
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Post by Mr Bean »

I can see, though it seems more like some poor bastard being roasted than the awe inspiring visage your trying to get from the necron

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Post by VF5SS »

You know the Prommie is very... toyetic...
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ロボットが好き。
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Massive hand-job of a ship

Post by Patrick Degan »

It seems like the Prometheus was designed by toymakers rather than military engineers. A ship that seperates into three componnents for the attack. What's the point? Starfleet might just as well simply build three or four small, fast but powerful attack ships for each Prometheus that they labour over in the yards for two years or more.
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Post by Ender »

paladin wrote: A SW fighter designed using ST tech would just be a "flying coffin."
Their current ships can all be called that
:P
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Post by VF5SS »

Can you imagine a toy commercial for the Prommie? How can you make Trek sound exciting to the increasingly ADD youth?
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Post by Solid Snake »

I might be the only one here who will say this, but it's a good 3 in 1 target for EA and ISA gun crews.
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Post by NecronLord »

Mr Bean wrote:I can see, though it seems more like some poor bastard being roasted than the awe inspiring visage your trying to get from the necron
Has anyone a pic of RSA/the dark serf I can use then?
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Post by Eleas »

NecronLord wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:I can see, though it seems more like some poor bastard being roasted than the awe inspiring visage your trying to get from the necron
Has anyone a pic of RSA/the dark serf I can use then?
I had one, long ago. My hard drive, mad with pain, proceeded to gnaw off its own SCSI cable to escape, and died on the operating table. :cry:
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Post by seanrobertson »

SolidSnake wrote:I might be the only one here who will say this, but it's a good 3 in 1 target for EA and ISA gun crews.
How many ships? 100? :)

Come on, SS. Prometheus would tear Excalibur a new
asshole. Check the website in my sig, and go to the ISA section
(top right of the home page). "Offensive capabilities" is what you
want.

I also respectfully disagree with everyone's objections to the Prometheus. The splitting up idea is rather stupid, but the idea was for
a *single* ship to attain extreme warp velocities with the three warp
cores running, in addition to the whole one core per section in combat
thing.

That's the trouble with simply building three smaller ships. They can't
integrate and combine warp power to go a lot faster, so they don't have
the response time Prometheus could. Their weapons might be
comparable, though even that's questionable. The separate sections'
power feeds could top off each section's phasers prior to separation (as
in storing the energy in a battery), giving each section an initial burst
of power otherwise unavailable had they been required to generate
the phaser energy alone.

Thus, you could be looking at not just three times a respectable phaser
power, but as much as *nine* times, given that each section could
potentially receive power from three cores as described above.

That would go a LONG way in explaining why Prometheus
easily disabled a Nebula-class ship and a Warbird with a handful
of shots. Comparably-armed ships, like Defiant v. Lakota,
can remain in battle for several minutes.

Granted, that's purely speculative, but it makes sense on the latter
count, and *would* explain why the SF engineers would pick such
an otherwise weird ship. Better that than simply assume they're dumb,
anyway.

Also, I think the idea of launching fighters would be a very poor substitute for Prometheus. It took WAVES of fighters to begin to damage
Cardassian Galors in "Sacrifice of Angels," yet in the same episode
(and effectively twice in "The Wounded"), a GCS blows a Galor'sshields away almost instantly.

Now, you figure that a Galaxy doesn't have NEAR the phaser power of
Prometheus, and the rest is pretty easy to figure out. The fighters
simply don't have the power to do capship levels of damage. Only a truly massive carrier with hundreds of fighters might have the potential of
far outstripping the PCS's performance in "MIAB"; but even then, your
carrier automatically loses because its mass would keep it very, very
slow. (There is a definitive link between the mass of a ship and its
top warp speeds; e.g., Annorax's time ship was limited to warp six
because of its mass in "Year of Hell.") The whole point of the PCS
isn't merely to surround your enemy with lots of little sections; it's supposed to be a fast attack cruiser, with sheer firepower and unmatched threat-response time. In seeking a lesser priority (a fighter carrier
and its fast warp prohibitive mass), you eschew the true value of the
ship.
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Post by aerius »

The problem with this and almost any other trek ship I can think of is the exposed warp engines, and in this case you got 4 big ones hanging out the back. Send a wave of fighters to concentrate their firepower on the engines and the Prometheus is screwed. Hit the engines and the ship will be getting a core breach. If you're gonna make a dedicated warship a far better design can be made by basing it on the Defiant class where the warp engines are protected in the hull, and can be extensively armoured as well. As far as I know the Defiant is the only ship to get hit with its shields down without losing warp drive (Way of the Warrior). Scaling the Defiant up and adding a ton of weapons, shields, armour, and power generation would be a far better idea.
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Post by seanrobertson »

aerius wrote:The problem with this and almost any other trek ship I can think of is the exposed warp engines, and in this case you got 4 big ones hanging out the back. Send a wave of fighters to concentrate their firepower on the engines and the Prometheus is screwed. Hit the engines and the ship will be getting a core breach. If you're gonna make a dedicated warship a far better design can be made by basing it on the Defiant class where the warp engines are protected in the hull, and can be extensively armoured as well. As far as I know the Defiant is the only ship to get hit with its shields down without losing warp drive (Way of the Warrior). Scaling the Defiant up and adding a ton of weapons, shields, armour, and power generation would be a far better idea.
I agree.

Evidently there are severe limitations on warp speed due to nacelle
integration...the Defiant is one of the few ships I can think
of that didn't lose warp drive in similar circumstances, too, but her
top warp speed is rather poor:




25 INT. DEFIANT - BRIDGE

Sisko, Worf, Bashir and O'Brien are discussing the
problem.

BASHIR
We need more speed.

O'BRIEN
Speed's not the problem. I could
increase the warp plasma ninety-
seven gigahertz. That would
increase our velocity to warp nine
point five and save us almost a
full day.

WORF.
But the problem on the Defiant is
how to maintain structural
integrity when we go above warp
nine.

O'BRIEN
Exactly. The ship literally
starts tearing herself apart at
those speeds.


Warp 9 is in the high hundreds of c, IIRC. Prometheus's
speed was stated to be faster than any ship in the fleet;
thus, it's faster than VGR's best, in the neighborhood of
20,000c+ for short periods (probably around, what, 6k for
any extended period? I dunno). Even an order of magnitude greater
speed is a considerable advantage.

ST fighters are pretty much useless for the reasons I stated, at least
up against a heavy hitter like the PCS. Trek seems to lack the
ability to miniaturize heavy firepower for the most part; even their
large shuttles, like Runabouts, are still rather poorly armed. The
Federation fighters used in "SoA" seem to be suicide craft, only
really effective en masse, and against inferior foes to boot; i.e.,
poorly-shielded Cardassian warships.

What might be best is a rip-off of Kenobi's AOTC fighter: a
warship with heavily armored nacelles, very heavy weapons, etc.,
but with some kind of detachable warp drive "booster rocket."
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

From an engineering standpoint, the Prometheus is FUBAR. It will have far more weight and space dedicated to structural support (or structural integrity field generators and associated power generator equipment, if you prefer) than a normal starship for reasons of stress analysis.

To put it simply, if I design a ship which has to hold together under a set of design stresses and then I find that I have to be able to split it in three, then each component must individually have enough structural strength to hold together under those design stresses.

Worse yet, the entire ship is held together by clamping mechanisms which, by virtue of their small size relative to the vessel, will act as stress concentration points (something the idiots who designed the E-D didn't think of either). A really good, solid hit would probably jam the release mechanisms badly enough that the ship can't split.

When they're assembled, the ship is grossly inefficient, with huge amounts of hull armour which segregate parts of the ship from one another but do not get in the way of enemy fire. Energy flow between the three parts is limited at best, and one must question the command and control system; if it is wireless even when the pieces are in contact (not inconceivable, given the Federation predilection for pointless "advancement"), it could conceivably be jammed by an attacker, thus causing the three parts of the ship to lose communication with one another.

The effectiveness of the "multi-vector attack mode" only proves one thing: Trek ships would not handle competent fighters well. The three ships would not lay any more fire down on enemy ships separately than they would as one unit, so the advantage must be due to shield optimization (a multi-vector attack forces the defender to spread his shields around rather than pushing all power to the shield sector facing a lone enemy ship).
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Post by Stormbringer »

The Promethus is the dumbest idea for a ship yet produced by trek. It essentially takes three decent ships and handicaps them by making them one big ass transformer ship. It's a stupid idea from the get go, no wonder the feddies loved it.


And the uber-Promethus isn't completely Spacebattles.com bullshit. Some trek guy (okuda I think) said, when asked what the feddies frontline ships were, said it was a mix of the a slightly larger Promethus that doesn't seperate and the Sovereign. Almost all the claims about it's capabilities are pure trekkie wet dreams on the other hand.
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Post by Eleas »

Stormbringer wrote:And the uber-Promethus isn't completely Spacebattles.com bullshit. Some trek guy (okuda I think) said, when asked what the feddies frontline ships were, said it was a mix of the a slightly larger Promethus that doesn't seperate and the Sovereign. Almost all the claims about it's capabilities are pure trekkie wet dreams on the other hand.
In that case, what degree of ability could we logically attribute to this super-Promethes? If it's used in tandem with the (apparently rare) Sovereign, wouldn't we expect it to carry around the same level of firepower?
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Post by Eleas »

Eleas wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:And the uber-Promethus isn't completely Spacebattles.com bullshit. Some trek guy (okuda I think) said, when asked what the feddies frontline ships were, said it was a mix of the a slightly larger Promethus that doesn't seperate and the Sovereign. Almost all the claims about it's capabilities are pure trekkie wet dreams on the other hand.
In that case, what degree of ability could we logically attribute to this super-Promethes? If it's used in tandem with the (apparently rare) Sovereign, wouldn't we expect it to carry around the same level of firepower?
...or even less firepower?
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Post by Master of Ossus »

SF has a fleet made up of Sovereigns? Since when? Why haven't we seen these in the past? Shouldn't they have been used during the Dominion War? And if the rest of their frontline ships are all battlecruisers, then does that make the Prometheus a battleship?
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Post by NecronLord »

It doesn't matter how Uber it is by SF standards, its still scrap metal.

I don't care whether or not any memeber of the production team said it; if Doug Chaing said the empire had a million Death Stars, would it be canon?
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