Could the Federation?......

[BenRG]

I think it would be possible to build a ship capable of launching
huge M/AM warheads. 100,000 tons of antimatter per warhead
would be nice.

Two points that I think you should note:

1. 100,000 tonnes of antimatter is the same volume as 100,000 tonnes of matter. You are talking something the size of one of present-day Earth's oil supertankers. You would need a hell of a big containment pod, plus an extremely powerful engine to get something like that to move.
2. Star Wars scanning technology can penetrate Star Trek cloaks, as they do not eliminated the gravitational 'footprint' of the starship. And a 100,000-ton weapon would leave one hell of a footprint, especially in interstellar space

In summary, you have a huge, unmanoeuvrable weapon that the Empire's forces could easly detect and destroy while still far outside of its' lethal radius.

Oh well, back to the ol' drawing board.

[Solauren]

Can the Federation/Star Trek design a ship to compete with, and possibly defeat an Imperial or Imperator Class Star Destroyer?

(FYI, I think of the Type I as the Imperial, and Type II as the Imperator. If you don’t like this, that’s you’re problem)

Hmmm…. Ya know, that’s a good question.

I’ve been cooking up ideas for Star Trek to fight the Empire if they had sufficient warning. (i.e The Empire was invading, starting with the Dominion, and had a slow advancement plan based on fortifying and pacifying a conquered territory before expanding out more), so I've been doing research like this. War Stories where one side over-runs the other in like days are no fun.

So, can they build one to match an ISD?

Let’s find out.
Please note: I used the Stats on DITL.ORG as my background with an adjustment.
According to Mike ‘Darth’ Wong, the tactical power of a Phaser appears to be about 30,000 TW (less then a Turbolaser cannon, but still, fairly powerful). Assuming a Type 10 Phaser (the main phasers on the enterprise, which did most of the firing) this would imply Each “Type” of Phaser (or rather, level) would be about 3000 TW in TNG era times (TNG, DS9, Voyager)

Reference
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html
[qoute] We know that phasers can penetrate shields of this type within 5 seconds of continuous firing, so phasers must be tactically equivalent to 300 TW plasma cannons, or 30,000 to 40,000 TW laser cannons. This is consistent with their performance relative to photon torpedoes; since photon torpedoes release perhaps 24 megatons of energy at the target (with the rest being wasted in inefficiencies or directed away from the ship), so it would take less than 3 seconds for a phaser beam to deliver more energy than a maximum-yield photon torpedo. [/qoute]

According to DITL, the TOTAL OUTPUT of all the Phasers on NCC-1701-D is only about 50,000 TW. (About 4000 TW each)

According to Mike, antimatter reactors output about 1E20 Watts (100,000,000,000,000,000,000 Watts, or 100,000,000 Terrawatts)

Qoute:
Their unstable matter/antimatter reactors can produce power on the order of 1E19 to 1E20 watts (similar to a tiny star). Their fusion reactors are limited to the TW range

I am going to go with Mike’s numbers, and do the following
Each Type of Phaser (i.e Type 1, Type 2) equal 3500 TW (I’m splitting the difference between 30,000 – 40,000, and dividing by the type number) Therefore, a Type 10 phaser does 35,000 TW of damage on a hit.

This would imply that DITL.ORG’s weapon calculations are off. However, I’m going to use them for shield capacity. This would imply that the best shields the Federation can output with a SINGLE DEFLECTOR dish (i.e NCC-1701-D) is 2,700,000 TJ. I’m going with this, since about 10 phaser hits it what I seems to take to drop the shields of the Enterprise-D. The Shields on NCC-1701-E are rated at 5,737,000 TJ. I’ll go with 5,700,000 TJ (1 TJ = 1 TW)

So, I’m going to use these stats in generating up a ‘Star Trek Star Destroyer’
Phasers: 3500 TW per Type/level (half that for Disruptors). Current Federation Max: Type 12 (Sovereign Class)
Shields: I’m going to say there maximum shield generation for a single deflector is about 5,000,000 TJ (and in this case 1J = 1W, so, 5,000,000 TW)
Power Output: 100,000,000 TW per Anti-matter reactor
(Which begs the question, where the hell are they putting all the extra power they generate with the Reactor? If the warp drive needs that much bloody power, that’s just sick for the low speeds)


With that said, here are out design goals
Shield Strength equal to a Star Destroyer. This is roughly 200,000,000,000 TW (this is based on the 70,000,000,000 TW figure for an Accalmator. I agree, this is probably a low number for the ISD, but it’s the best one I have.) For the sake of argument, I’m going to say 500,000,000,000 TW (500 Billion TW)
Firepower Equal to a Star Destroyer.
Light Turbolasers appear to do about 45,000 TW’s of power. In My estimation, Standard would do about 80,000 TW, and Heavy would probably do 120,000 TW

The Armament on a Star Destroyer is
60 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries (1 Battery = 5 Cannons), 60 Ion Cannon Batteries (assuming same firepower vs shields as a standard turbolaser)
Never seen stats on Warhead launchers. That’s probably why they carry Bombers
Between 1200 – 9700 Troops. I’ll use the high end number and just say flat out 10,000
Crew of 40,000
3 Tie Fighter Squadrons, 2 Tie Interceptor Squadrons, 1 Tie Bomber Squadron
(Star fighter lasers at 30,000 KW, Warheads unknown, assuming equal to a heavy turbolaser, or 120,000 TW)

So, our design goal is a ship that has
Shields: 500,000,000,000 TW
Firepower: Beam and Projectile Weapons equal to (36000000 Turbolaser + 24000000 Ion Cannon) 60,000,000 Terrawatts every 2 seconds, or 30,000,000 Terrawatts per second (roughly 30% of a Warp Core’s output)


Okay, to do this, it’s easy to figure out
Star Destroyer Shields / Sovereign Shields = number of Sovereign Shields to generate that much shielding
Total Firepower of Energy Weapons per second on ISD/Power level of a Type 12 Phaser = number needed

500,000,000,000 TW / 5,700,000 TW = 87719.29 (Round up, 88000)
30,000,000 TW / 36,000 TW = 833 (Round up, 840)

Power Needed: to total of Shields and Firepower on ISD divided by amount produced by a Federation that is devoted to weapons (6,000,0000 TW) = 83343.33 Reactors (Roughly 84000)

Conclussion: With exsisting technology, it would take Roughly 90000 Shield Emitors, 85000 Anti-matter reactors, and at least 900 Type 12 Phaser Emitors (preferabbly Rapid Fire Guns) to match a Imperial Star Destroyer.

I have no idea how big the resulting ship would be. Probably would rival the Death Star that destroyed Alderaan in size

However, using a few lost techs/one episode wonders, it becomes easier
#1- If you installed two more Warp Cores, with one devoted to the shields, it’s possible to match, or even surpass a Star Destroyers shields.
How?
Do you remember the Voyager (yeah, I know) Episode they managed to take Voyager into the Q Continium? The Female Q had them realign the entire power and shield grid, and they did something that increased the shield strength by a factor of 10. If that means 1E10 (and not times 10) that would shields 1,000,000,000 Times as powerful as normal. This would jump the defensive power of a Sovereign class ship to levels HIGHER then a Star Destroyer by a very comfortable margin. (5,700,000,000,000,000 TW vs 500,000,000,000 TW, which gives the NCC-1701-E an advantage of 11400:1 on shield strength)

If they and duplicate that feat, and assuming the Q was not doing something (she appeared to be totally mortal, so, let’s pretend she was), this would actually make NCC-1701-E vs and ISD a reasonably fair fight.

In fact, I’ll plug it into Excel and run the numbers, please hold (assuming the NCC1701E can hit with 8 of its Phasers per second, all Weapons on the ISD hit every two seconds))

It would take the ISD 190,000,000 Seconds to drop these ‘Q Super Shields’
It would take the NCC-1701-E, 1,736,111 Seconds to drop the ISD’s

Ouch…. Suddenly I know how Star Trek feels on this board.

However, that’s if the Factor of 10 was 1E10. If it was just x10, the ISD would drop the NCC1701E in 19 Seconds, and they’d need to upgun the way I said.


Hard to say. If they could reproduce the Q Super Shields and if the Factor 10 was 1E10, then yes, they can match and surpass an ISD, and probably hold off a large scale assault by the Empire for a while, until the Death Star or other Super Weapons got involved. Heck, if they can use the Q Super Shields the way they wanted to use the normal shields in Best of Both Worlds, they might be able to crack a planet.

However, if they can’t, that’s a lot of warp reactors, shield emitors and phaser arrays. They’d be better of building the 80,000 Starships

Hmmm, interesting ponderance. Did the female Q temporarily teach the crew of Voyager how to rig up their anti-matter reactor to produce and use hypermatter?

So, in closing
With some luck
YES

[Thunderfire]

Two points that I think you should note:

1. 100,000 tonnes of antimatter is the same volume as 100,000 tonnes of matter. You are talking something the size of one of present-day Earth's oil supertankers. You would need a hell of a big containment pod, plus an extremely powerful engine to get something like that to move.

The defiant weights between 100k-200k tonnes. The same engine/shielding/armor
could be used for the warhead. An ISD size ship should be able to carry a few of
these things. A warp capable warhead should be hard to track. A 100,000 tonnes
AM warhead should be PT range. A lot of trouble for the ISD if some warheads manage to hit the ISD.

[BenRG]

But that doesn't really matter in the terms of this discussion. Wow, Thunderfire, you really do go all-out don't you? A single-shot expendable weapon the size of a fleet destroyer? I shudder to think the resources that would be needed to build one of those things. Add on top of that, I don't know if the Federation has the shipyard capability to build any number of them.

Let's boil down to your fundamental point: Warp drive capable. There is no reason why not (indeed, I've always wondered why the Federation doesn't have active warp-capable torpedoes for use against instalations at long ranges). However, you have to remember that an ISD's sensor range is pretty long. To get within detonation range (and it would have to be pretty close, maybe nearly skin-to-shield) before the ISD's tactical systems could detect, identify and target it would mean travelling at very high warp (Maybe factor 9.9+). Then you have to get around the problem of co-ordinating the detonation sequence so it doesn't happen on the other side of the ISD and outside of the radius of effect.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Can the Federation/Star Trek design a ship to compete with, and possibly defeat an Imperial or Imperator Class Star Destroyer?

(FYI, I think of the Type I as the Imperial, and Type II as the Imperator. If you don’t like this, that’s you’re problem)

Wierd choice, but at least it makes them easy to differentiate from each other.

So, can they build one to match an ISD?

Let’s find out.
Please note: I used the Stats on DITL.ORG as my background with an adjustment.
According to Mike ‘Darth’ Wong, the tactical power of a Phaser appears to be about 30,000 TW (less then a Turbolaser cannon, but still, fairly powerful). Assuming a Type 10 Phaser (the main phasers on the enterprise, which did most of the firing) this would imply Each “Type” of Phaser (or rather, level) would be about 3000 TW in TNG era times (TNG, DS9, Voyager)

Problem. IIRC, Type 1, 2 and 3 are for various types of small arms, and Type IV and up are mounted on vessels of various sizes. Do you contend that a Type II "Shaver" hand phaser has 6000TW of tactical power?

According to Mike, antimatter reactors output about 1E20 Watts (100,000,000,000,000,000,000 Watts, or 100,000,000 Terrawatts)

Life's getting tougher for the Trekkies every day. Sadly for them, the TM (from which this rosy number came) has gone out, and now it is down to 3E16 from a TNG Deja Q.

I am going to go with Mike’s numbers, and do the following
Each Type of Phaser (i.e Type 1, Type 2) equal 3500 TW (I’m splitting the difference between 30,000 – 40,000, and dividing by the type number) Therefore, a Type 10 phaser does 35,000 TW of damage on a hit.

This would imply that DITL.ORG’s weapon calculations are off. However, I’m going to use them for shield capacity. This would imply that the best shields the Federation can output with a SINGLE DEFLECTOR dish (i.e NCC-1701-D) is 2,700,000 TJ. I’m going with this, since about 10 phaser hits it what I seems to take to drop the shields of the Enterprise-D. The Shields on NCC-1701-E are rated at 5,737,000 TJ. I’ll go with 5,700,000 TJ (1 TJ = 1 TW)

10 (say one second long) 35000TW phaser hits is only 350,000TJ. You'd need 10 8-second long hits to get what you want. By the way, 1TJ does not equal 1TW. 1TW is a TJ over one second. But it can also be a half a TJ over half a second, or 2 TJ over 2 seconds.

Assuming 1TJ = 1TW also puts you into confusing dissipation with capacity. SW sheild statistics tend to be disspation, every second. ST shield calcs are capacities - totals, with the per second disspative ability probably far less.

With that said, here are out design goals
Shield Strength equal to a Star Destroyer. This is roughly 200,000,000,000 TW (this is based on the 70,000,000,000 TW figure for an Accalmator. I agree, this is probably a low number for the ISD, but it’s the best one I have.) For the sake of argument, I’m going to say 500,000,000,000 TW (500 Billion TW)

Yes, the shield dissipation is about 500 billion TW.

Firepower Equal to a Star Destroyer.
Light Turbolasers appear to do about 45,000 TW’s of power. In My estimation, Standard would do about 80,000 TW, and Heavy would probably do 120,000 TW

You mean those huge, canonically seen turrets are only three times as powerful as those dinky little point defense TLs you can't really see? Also, considering that TLs are pulse and not continuous beam weapons, I wonder whether TW really is appropriate.

Between 1200 – 9700 Troops. I’ll use the high end number and just say flat out 10,000

Strange ... never heard of the 1200 troop figure in a full Imperial ISD. Not doubting it, just wondering where it came from...

So, our design goal is a ship that has
Shields: 500,000,000,000 TW
Firepower: Beam and Projectile Weapons equal to (36000000 Turbolaser + 24000000 Ion Cannon) 60,000,000 Terrawatts every 2 seconds, or 30,000,000 Terrawatts per second (roughly 30% of a Warp Core’s output)

No, you need a shield disspitation of 500 billion TW. That's not the total shield capacity. That's just for ONE SECOND. It is highly probable the ISD shield capacity far exceeds its dissipation, and if the entry rate is low enough, the ISD shield capacity may be limited by reliability concerns (shutdowns for maintenance,) not by overwhelming it with power.

60 million terajoules = 6E19J = 14 gigatons, since 1MT = 4.186E15J and 1GT = 4.186E18J. Before we get any further, you'd have to explain why you assumed a Star Destroyer to have less firepower than an Acclamator...

Conclussion: With exsisting technology, it would take Roughly 90000 Shield Emitors, 85000 Anti-matter reactors, and at least 900 Type 12 Phaser Emitors (preferabbly Rapid Fire Guns) to match a Imperial Star Destroyer.

I've explained why even this is very optimistic above (and that's not counting you used DITL info.)

(5,700,000,000,000,000 TW vs 500,000,000,000 TW, which gives the NCC-1701-E an advantage of 11400:1 on shield strength)

If they and duplicate that feat, and assuming the Q was not doing something (she appeared to be totally mortal, so, let’s pretend she was), this would actually make NCC-1701-E vs and ISD a reasonably fair fight.

In fact, I’ll plug it into Excel and run the numbers, please hold (assuming the NCC1701E can hit with 8 of its Phasers per second, all Weapons on the ISD hit every two seconds))

It would take the ISD 190,000,000 Seconds to drop these ‘Q Super Shields’
It would take the NCC-1701-E, 1,736,111 Seconds to drop the ISD’s

Actually, ST is still losing. You badly underestimated the offensive ISD capability. We are currently hitting the Sovereign with 14GT every second. Let's bump it up to Acclamator class firepower, 1200GT per salvo by totalling the six turrets. That killed off most of the time gap by itself.

Worse, you STILL hadn't considered the idea that the SW rating is a dissipation rating. Each second, it can shunt aside 500 billion terawatts. With the attacking power less than 1/1,000,000 of its dissipation ability, the shield won't feel a thing.

ST, on the other hand, is a capacity. It is not guranteed it can replenish. If I'm actually willing to bombard that shield for thousands of hours, I might eventually destroy it. But then, with the bombardment rating so far off the shield capacity, I'd find it plausible that even a slow repairer could keep up.

In short, they'd probably not do anything to each other even if that is true. If the ISD got thousands of hours to waste trying to bust a starship shield (and the enemy ship is not getting seriously close to bagging the ISD's shields,) it'd spend them using its superior hyperdrive speed and attacking your planets...

Can the Federation/Star Trek design a ship to compete with, and possibly defeat an Imperial or Imperator Class Star Destroyer?

(FYI, I think of the Type I as the Imperial, and Type II as the Imperator. If you don’t like this, that’s you’re problem)

Wierd choice, but at least it makes them easy to differentiate from each other.

So, can they build one to match an ISD?

Let’s find out.
Please note: I used the Stats on DITL.ORG as my background with an adjustment.
According to Mike ‘Darth’ Wong, the tactical power of a Phaser appears to be about 30,000 TW (less then a Turbolaser cannon, but still, fairly powerful). Assuming a Type 10 Phaser (the main phasers on the enterprise, which did most of the firing) this would imply Each “Type” of Phaser (or rather, level) would be about 3000 TW in TNG era times (TNG, DS9, Voyager)

Problem. IIRC, Type 1, 2 and 3 are for various types of small arms, and Type IV and up are mounted on vessels of various sizes. Do you contend that a Type II "Shaver" hand phaser has 6000TW of tactical power?

According to Mike, antimatter reactors output about 1E20 Watts (100,000,000,000,000,000,000 Watts, or 100,000,000 Terrawatts)

Life's getting tougher for the Trekkies every day. Sadly for them, the TM (from which this rosy number came) has gone out, and now it is down to 3E16 from a TNG Deja Q.

I am going to go with Mike’s numbers, and do the following
Each Type of Phaser (i.e Type 1, Type 2) equal 3500 TW (I’m splitting the difference between 30,000 – 40,000, and dividing by the type number) Therefore, a Type 10 phaser does 35,000 TW of damage on a hit.

This would imply that DITL.ORG’s weapon calculations are off. However, I’m going to use them for shield capacity. This would imply that the best shields the Federation can output with a SINGLE DEFLECTOR dish (i.e NCC-1701-D) is 2,700,000 TJ. I’m going with this, since about 10 phaser hits it what I seems to take to drop the shields of the Enterprise-D. The Shields on NCC-1701-E are rated at 5,737,000 TJ. I’ll go with 5,700,000 TJ (1 TJ = 1 TW)

10 (say one second long) 35000TW phaser hits is only 350,000TJ. You'd need 10 8-second long hits to get what you want. By the way, 1TJ does not equal 1TW. 1TW is a TJ over one second. But it can also be a half a TJ over half a second, or 2 TJ over 2 seconds.

Assuming 1TJ = 1TW also puts you into confusing dissipation with capacity. SW sheild statistics tend to be disspation, every second. ST shield calcs are capacities - totals, with the per second disspative ability probably far less.

With that said, here are out design goals
Shield Strength equal to a Star Destroyer. This is roughly 200,000,000,000 TW (this is based on the 70,000,000,000 TW figure for an Accalmator. I agree, this is probably a low number for the ISD, but it’s the best one I have.) For the sake of argument, I’m going to say 500,000,000,000 TW (500 Billion TW)

Yes, the shield dissipation is about 500 billion TW.

Firepower Equal to a Star Destroyer.
Light Turbolasers appear to do about 45,000 TW’s of power. In My estimation, Standard would do about 80,000 TW, and Heavy would probably do 120,000 TW

You mean those huge, canonically seen turrets are only three times as powerful as those dinky little point defense TLs you can't really see? Also, considering that TLs are pulse and not continuous beam weapons, I wonder whether TW really is appropriate.

Between 1200 – 9700 Troops. I’ll use the high end number and just say flat out 10,000

Strange ... never heard of the 1200 troop figure in a full Imperial ISD. Not doubting it, just wondering where it came from...

So, our design goal is a ship that has
Shields: 500,000,000,000 TW
Firepower: Beam and Projectile Weapons equal to (36000000 Turbolaser + 24000000 Ion Cannon) 60,000,000 Terrawatts every 2 seconds, or 30,000,000 Terrawatts per second (roughly 30% of a Warp Core’s output)

No, you need a shield disspitation of 500 billion TW. That's not the total shield capacity. That's just for ONE SECOND. It is highly probable the ISD shield capacity far exceeds its dissipation, and if the entry rate is low enough, the ISD shield capacity may be limited by reliability concerns (shutdowns for maintenance,) not by overwhelming it with power.

60 million terajoules = 6E19J = 14 gigatons, since 1MT = 4.186E15J and 1GT = 4.186E18J. Before we get any further, you'd have to explain why you assumed a Star Destroyer to have less firepower than an Acclamator...

Conclussion: With exsisting technology, it would take Roughly 90000 Shield Emitors, 85000 Anti-matter reactors, and at least 900 Type 12 Phaser Emitors (preferabbly Rapid Fire Guns) to match a Imperial Star Destroyer.

I've explained why even this is very optimistic above (and that's not counting you used DITL info.)

(5,700,000,000,000,000 TW vs 500,000,000,000 TW, which gives the NCC-1701-E an advantage of 11400:1 on shield strength)

If they and duplicate that feat, and assuming the Q was not doing something (she appeared to be totally mortal, so, let’s pretend she was), this would actually make NCC-1701-E vs and ISD a reasonably fair fight.

In fact, I’ll plug it into Excel and run the numbers, please hold (assuming the NCC1701E can hit with 8 of its Phasers per second, all Weapons on the ISD hit every two seconds))

It would take the ISD 190,000,000 Seconds to drop these ‘Q Super Shields’
It would take the NCC-1701-E, 1,736,111 Seconds to drop the ISD’s

Actually, ST is still losing. You badly underestimated the offensive ISD capability. We are currently hitting the Sovereign with 14GT every second. Let's bump it up to Acclamator class firepower, 1200GT per salvo by totalling the six turrets. That killed off most of the time gap by itself.

Worse, you STILL hadn't considered the idea that the SW rating is a dissipation rating. Each second, it can shunt aside 500 billion terawatts. With the attacking power less than 1/1,000,000 of its dissipation ability, the shield won't feel a thing.

ST, on the other hand, is a capacity. It is not guranteed it can replenish. If I'm actually willing to bombard that shield for thousands of hours, I might eventually destroy it. But then, with the bombardment rating so far off the shield capacity, I'd find it plausible that even a slow repairer could keep up.

In short, they'd probably not do anything to each other even if that is true. If the ISD got thousands of hours to waste trying to bust a starship shield (and the enemy ship is not getting seriously close to bagging the ISD's shields,) it'd spend them using its superior hyperdrive speed and attacking your planets...

IN short, the very best that could happen is that the Federation can produce ships that can stop themselves from being destroyed by the ISD. And that involves one-time tech that is given a blatantly optimistic interpretation. I'd say no.

[Col. Crackpot]

But that doesn't really matter in the terms of this discussion. Wow, Thunderfire, you really do go all-out don't you? A single-shot expendable weapon the size of a fleet destroyer? I shudder to think the resources that would be needed to build one of those things. Add on top of that, I don't know if the Federation has the shipyard capability to build any number of them.

Let's boil down to your fundamental point: Warp drive capable. There is no reason why not (indeed, I've always wondered why the Federation doesn't have active warp-capable torpedoes for use against instalations at long ranges). However, you have to remember that an ISD's sensor range is pretty long. To get within detonation range (and it would have to be pretty close, maybe nearly skin-to-shield) before the ISD's tactical systems could detect, identify and target it would mean travelling at very high warp (Maybe factor 9.9+). Then you have to get around the problem of co-ordinating the detonation sequence so it doesn't happen on the other side of the ISD and outside of the radius of effect.

some nitpicks:

1 the defiant is not a fleet destroyer it is an escort/corvette
2 a 150 meter empty hull of tritanium with an engine, shield and a container pod is not a labor intensive project.

Truth and facts win debates. not exaggerations

[Thunderfire]

But that doesn't really matter in the terms of this discussion. Wow, Thunderfire, you really do go all-out don't you? A single-shot expendable weapon the size of a fleet destroyer? I shudder to think the resources that would be needed to build one of those things. Add on top of that, I don't know if the Federation has the shipyard capability to build any number of them.

They can built defiants. This means they should be able to built these
warheads too. Building an ISD size ship able to carry these things will
be a bigger problem but the feds should be able to do this too. About
hitting. I don't think that an ISD is able to hit something that aproaches
at warp. Otherwise the rebelfighters in ANH would have been killed
as soon as they get into the firing range of the DS antifighter/warhead
weapons.

[Ghost Rider]

But that doesn't really matter in the terms of this discussion. Wow, Thunderfire, you really do go all-out don't you? A single-shot expendable weapon the size of a fleet destroyer? I shudder to think the resources that would be needed to build one of those things. Add on top of that, I don't know if the Federation has the shipyard capability to build any number of them.

They can built defiants. This means they should be able to built these
warheads too. Building an ISD size ship able to carry these things will
be a bigger problem but the feds should be able to do this too. About
hitting. I don't think that an ISD is able to hit something that aproaches
at warp. Otherwise the rebelfighters in ANH would have been killed
as soon as they get into the firing range of the DS antifighter/warhead
weapons.

But given they can detect things easily within Light minutes and have observed thing well into Hyperspace.

A so called Warp torpedo is still too slow...they would see it, and just leave while it's plodding along.

[Thunderfire]

But given they can detect things easily within Light minutes and have observed thing well into Hyperspace.

A so called Warp torpedo is still too slow...they would see it, and just leave while it's plodding along.

A torpedo at 1000c will travel about 16 light minutes in 1 second. So a
detection range of several light minutes will only gives the ISD a few seconds to jump to safety.

[Ghost Rider]

But given they can detect things easily within Light minutes and have observed thing well into Hyperspace.

A so called Warp torpedo is still too slow...they would see it, and just leave while it's plodding along.

A torpedo at 1000c will travel about 16 light minutes in 1 second. So a
detection range of several light minutes will only gives the ISD a few seconds to jump to safety.

Ah so because they detect regularly things that move hundreds of times faster...they'll obviously just stand there as this slow moving slug moves toward them.(you do relaize how much faster Hyperspace is, and they can detect said objects moving towards them)

A 100oc torpedo is slug waddling through mud compared to say the Galaxy Gun(DE2) or the Rebel Fleeet(RoTJ)

[TurboPhaser]

*clap clap* I think Solauren has got the point of this thread.

Be creative, use forgotten tech. Honestly, most people in this thread was sticking solely to standard torps and phasers.

[Thunderfire]

Ah so because they detect regularly things that move hundreds of times faster...they'll obviously just stand there as this slow moving slug moves toward them.(you do relaize how much faster Hyperspace is, and they can detect said objects moving towards them)

The Rebel Fleet didn't detect the ISDs during their aproach on Endor.
The ISDs also hat alot of trouble finding the falcon in the asteroid field.
A cloaked ST ship/warhead might be equally hard to detect.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Ah so because they detect regularly things that move hundreds of times faster...they'll obviously just stand there as this slow moving slug moves toward them.(you do relaize how much faster Hyperspace is, and they can detect said objects moving towards them)

The Rebel Fleet didn't detect the ISDs during their aproach on Endor.

LANDO: How can they be jamming us if they don't know...that we're coming?

[Ghost Rider]

The Rebel Fleet didn't detect the ISDs during their aproach on Endor.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You did watch RoTJ right?

Hmmm the REBELS were BEING JAMMMED!

Or did Lando's quote fly by you?

The ISDs also hat alot of trouble finding the falcon in the asteroid field.

Let's see they were running on virtually no power inside an asteroid....yeah and this relates to your argument how aside from being a red herring?

A cloaked ST ship/warhead might be equally hard to detect.

Leap of logic, are you going to back this supposition up?

[Thunderfire]

The Rebel Fleet didn't detect the ISDs during their aproach on Endor.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You did watch RoTJ right?

Hmmm the REBELS were BEING JAMMMED!

Or did Lando's quote fly by you?

The ISDs also hat alot of trouble finding the falcon in the asteroid field.

Let's see they were running on virtually no power inside an asteroid....yeah and this relates to your argument how aside from being a red herring?

A cloaked ST ship/warhead might be equally hard to detect.

Leap of logic, are you going to back this supposition up?

My point is that the detection range of SW ship can be severly reduced.
ST ships have a lot of trouble detecting cloaked ships. Why shouldn't
have SW ships the same problem? Their sensors are better but this
will turn the detection from from a fraction of a light second to several
light minutes. Cloaking has worked against SW powers at a much closer
range before.

[BenRG]

My point is that the detection range of SW ship can be severly reduced. ST ships have a lot of trouble detecting cloaked ships. Why shouldn't have SW ships the same problem?

Don't forget: Star Wars cloaks are conceptually very different from their Star Trek equivalents.

Their sensors are better but this will turn the detection from from a fraction of a light second to several light minutes. Cloaking has worked against SW powers at a much closer range before.

SW cloaks, not ST cloaks.

IIRC, Star Wars cloaks are gravametric in their operation, working a little like a suped-up warp drive. They create a small pinched-off 'pocket' of space-time in which the ship generating the field hides. The ship is undetectable because it occupies what is close to a different universe, mathemtically similar to the inside of a black hole. The obvious drawback (and this has been mentioned in several EU novels) that a cloaked SW ship cannot detect anything outside the cloaking field. It seems that leaving a 'window' for some sensor to see out would also let everyone else see in.

According to most official sources that I've seen, Star Trek cloaks are simply electromagnetic and subspace refraction fields, bending light and most other forms of radiation around the ship. Don't ask me how their sensors see out of the cloaking field, but they evidently do. Because the cloaking field cannot hide the ship's 'footprint' in the space-time continuum (indeed, the presence of a warp drive would make that footprint even larger), a cloaked ST ship is entirely visible to an SW ship's gravitational sensors.

Basically, everything comes down to detection range, speed and reaction times. The surface sensors on Endor detected the Rebel fleet while it was still several minutes away and still in hyperspace. I would assume that an ISD must have at least a small portion of that sensing capability, possibly even comparable range. So, given the much slower velocities of warp drive, I would say that an ISD would at least a minute of lead-time before the hypothetical doomsday missile reached its' lethal radius. Plenty of time to get a HTL lock and blow it up with one shot.

[Thunderfire]

This means you need gravimetric sensors to detect ships at warp.
The same thing that can be used to detect SW cloaks. Fine whats the
range of these things and how common are they.

[Ghost Rider]

Given that the ISD has sensors have shown constantly light minute at bare minimum to light year in the EU.

Most capital class ships are armed with similar sensors.

[BenRG]

This means you need gravimetric sensors to detect ships at warp. The same thing that can be used to detect SW cloaks. Fine whats the range of these things and how common are they.

Er, no, wrong. The SW cloak generates a near-completely 'pinched off' bit of the universe. Gravitational sensors aren't able to detect them.

Commonality: In TESB, Captain Needa of the ISD Avenger remarked that the Millennium Falcon was too small to carry a cloaking field generator. From this, we can assume that there are freighters (probably smuggling vessels) that carry SW cloaks. For civillian ships to carry this sort of military hardware (imagine a Boeing 747F with an ECM pod) means that the technology is fairly common in the SW galaxy.

In the 'Thrawn' trilogy by Timothy Zahn, the Empire salvages a prototype cloak from a secret Imperial research lab that was much smaller or something (it has been a while since I read 'Dark Fleet Rising'). I'm not sure, but this new type of cloak was small enough that a TIE Recon (only a little larger than a TIE Interceptor) could carry it without too many modifications.

If you were referring to the sensors... Well, there is no reason to assume that Endor Base wasn't a completely off-the-shelf modular Imperial surface garrison building. I assume that its' sensor fit was Imperial military standard of the day.

The range is slightly more problematical as there is no cut-free timeline from Leia seeing the approaching fleet on the viewscreen to us seeing the Rebel fleet dropping out of Lightspeed in the Endor system. However, given that the fleet dropped out of lightspeed at least as far away from Endor as the Moon is from Earth, and the speed that they reached what looked like the equivalent distance of geostationary orbit, I would say that they might have been as much as two or three light days away when the ground sensors first detected them.

Er... Thunderfire, have you ever seen 'The Return of the Jedi'? It would be easier for me if you tried to recall what you've seen in the movie than if I tried to do it for you instead.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Thunderfire, where the hell are they going to get all this antimatter for multiple of these large warhead ships? A photon torp uses 1.5 grams of antimatter IIRC. Lets say every ship has 500 photon torps and 10000 ship fleet figures(giving trek some advantages), the entire ammount of antimatter used for photon torps. at one time in Starfleet is 7,500,000 grams. 100,000 tons equals 907,16,000,000 grams. That makes then entire photon torp pay out of Starfleet .0082675% of the Antimatter required for just ONE of your weapons. Even including reactors on ships and planets(which to stop supplying would cause thousands to die) and quantums it looks like it doesn't matter if they can make the missile or if the Empire can detected it, they don't have the resources to make it.

[Thunderfire]

Yes I have seen all SW and ST movies. The main site suggest
that CGT isn't a common installation on imperial vessels. My
question is has CGT the same range as the other sensors?
Sensors able to detect ships in hyperspace?

[BenRG]

Sensors able to detect ships in hyperspace?

All I can say is that the Endor surface base definately detected the Rebel fleet while some distance away and still at lightspeed. While I wouldn't expect a little Lancer-class frigate or a Blockade Runner to have a sensor outfit like that, a 1600-metre-long ISD or a 17,000-metre-long SSD almost certainly does.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Yes I have seen all SW and ST movies. The main site suggest
that CGT isn't a common installation on imperial vessels. My
question is has CGT the same range as the other sensors?
Sensors able to detect ships in hyperspace?

CGTs aren't needed to detect ST cloaked ships, IIRC they aren't needed on normal cloaks, just the highly advanced prototype the Emperor was keeping in his giant goodie bag of a planet.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Cloaks in SW are common enough that Needa conciders the Falcon cloaking but only dismisses it because its too small, and in the TMP novel, Qui-Gon asks if the Queen's ship has a cloaking device, and is told it's not a military ship.

[jegs2]

"Could the ancient Romans have built a rival to a modern aircraft carrier?"

I think that is a good analogy to the question posed by this thread.