So...

[TheDarkling]

I was talking about using torps from warp and that strayed off into warop strafing, also Sulu states the distance on some of the runs and on another one he states they are coming in at Warp seven just before they fire.

They didnt know how importnat Voyager was - I m sorry Wong but they didnt, from Scorpion you get that impression but from the latter episode involving the mock up Federation we get told they know very little (they didnt even know how many ships the Feds had in the DQ so their telepathy was very limited).

[Evil Jerk]

All 8472 knew was that an alien ship had appeared and then attacked them with a new weapon that would turn the tables on them.

How the hell could it turn the tables?
Just because THEY started taking a few casualties? Face it, 8472 were afraid of anything resembling an equal war.

The alien in charge of the ship said she was not going to attack them if they retreated (they pull back and she didnt but this alone isnt enough to prove the Aliens are trustworthy - they maybe preparing for an attack).

Uh, all the more reason to press the attack.

You also state that they should figure it out since Voyager didnt use the weapon before - except there is no way to know how wide spread the tech is and that Voyage had not used it the first time (it was in a borg tractor beam and they didnt really have time to respond) and the second instance the Borg rammed the ship (Voyager had taken damage maybe the weapons were offline).

Why assume the weapons are offline without any evidence?
In any case, it's clear that the Borg could do nothing to them before, suddenly this new ship turns up, mingles with the Borg and fires the weapon out then. The weapon has Borg technology like I said, it would be plain to see that Voyager got a weapon from the Borg and retooled it, hence THEY COULDN'T HAVE HAD IT BEFORE otherwise the Borg would've had it too (according to them thinking the Borg are the Fed's allies).

[TheDarkling]

Oh you meant they couldnt have had it before they met up with the Borg, yes thats true but that still doesnt prove that the Aliens hadnt given this new weapon to others of their kind.

Basically they didnt know what the hell was going on and resolved to find out -those idiots everyone knows wandering around blindly is the way to go .

If 8472 were cowards they wouldnt have started spying on the feds to gather intel they would have stayed at home and hid under their beds.

[Andrew Joshua Talon]

Wow... From transphasic torpedos all the way to warp strafing. Forums rock! Still... I kind of lost track of the argument around 8472's data on the Federation. I don't want to offend anyone, but...

Species 8472 might have not attacked Earth outright, even with all their data on it's defensive capabilities. They may not have been as paranoid as Voyager thought. Or, they could have simply been trying to comprehend the data more efficiently. To a race that has never encountered music, literature, or media of any type (It's in the ST Encylopedia, 2001 Edition) all the cultural information the Federation knew and had catalogued was probably daunting, even terrifying.

However, I agree on the point that the Federation would not have been able to repel an 8472 invasion, unless Voyager followed them through a fluidic gateway to the AQ, which is also very unlikely.

[Evil Jerk]

Oh you meant they couldnt have had it before they met up with the Borg, yes thats true but that still doesnt prove that the Aliens hadnt given this new weapon to others of their kind.

No, but it does hint that the weapon is new and they can still gain an advantage by attacking now, not later. Especially when the potential prototype ship is flying right in front of them.

Basically they didnt know what the hell was going on and resolved to find out -those idiots everyone knows wandering around blindly is the way to go

Unless they were complete idiots they should've known enough, that weapon didn't even come close to annihilating them anyway.

If 8472 were cowards they wouldnt have started spying on the feds to gather intel they would have stayed at home and hid under their beds.

But they didn't spy, they set up a simulation with the intention of maybe spying on the Federation someday.. while the rest of them stayed at home and hid under their beds.

[SirNitram]

Oh you meant they couldnt have had it before they met up with the Borg, yes thats true but that still doesnt prove that the Aliens hadnt given this new weapon to others of their kind.

Basically they didnt know what the hell was going on and resolved to find out -those idiots everyone knows wandering around blindly is the way to go .

If 8472 were cowards they wouldnt have started spying on the feds to gather intel they would have stayed at home and hid under their beds.

Again, you don't get it. Any normal, sane, logical being, upon being met with a weapon that can deal them harm which is only confirmed in short supply, you blow up the weapon. If there are more, you find it, you blow it the fuck away. If I'm in a tank battalion and the enemy is mostly armed with sticks, but one has a TOW rocket launcher, I do not run like a bunch of fucking pussies, I blast that TOW and it's user until they are in fragmented peices. There might be more, but that thread is eliminated.

Darkling, your excuses are nonsense.

[Evil Jerk]

Species 8472 might have not attacked Earth outright, even with all their data on it's defensive capabilities. They may not have been as paranoid as Voyager thought. Or, they could have simply been trying to comprehend the data more efficiently. To a race that has never encountered music, literature, or media of any type (It's in the ST Encylopedia, 2001 Edition) all the cultural information the Federation knew and had catalogued was probably daunting, even terrifying.

Sure, it seems that their blustering in "Scorpion" was propaganda and they're really fearful and curious, but this only proves that they have no stomach for war once they realised they could get hurt too.

[Darth Wong]

They didnt know how importnat Voyager was - I m sorry Wong but they didnt, from Scorpion you get that impression but from the latter episode involving the mock up Federation we get told they know very little (they didnt even know how many ships the Feds had in the DQ so their telepathy was very limited).

Interesting presumption of certainty there, Darkling. They had incomplete knowledge of the Federation so you figure they couldn't possibly have known about the ONE THING THEY WERE CONCENTRATING ON IN THEIR TELEPATHY, ie- the weapon? That's a pretty loooong leap in logic, Darkling. Hope you've got a parachute.

[TheDarkling]

Someday?? The mission was ready to go in 6 weeks (I believe, I will check in a minute).

They also had 100's under going the spy training, this was no small effort.

Think about it, a ship is going to create a whole new weapon against a deadly thraet and not send the plans to its home base - that makes no sense, they assumed that the Feds had a weapon that could cause heavy damage to their fleets and they had no knowledge on the fleet streght of this enemy or any other details.

Starting a war against an enemy you know nothing about except they have a rather nifty one shot kill weapon is rather stupid.

[SirNitram]

Someday?? The mission was ready to go in 6 weeks (I believe, I will check in a minute).

They also had 100's under going the spy training, this was no small effort.

Think about it, a ship is going to create a whole new weapon against a deadly thraet and not send the plans to its home base - that makes no sense, they assumed that the Feds had a weapon that could cause heavy damage to their fleets and they had no knowledge on the fleet streght of this enemy or any other details.

Starting a war against an enemy you know nothing about except they have a rather nifty one shot kill weapon is rather stupid.

Wow, that last line is the most pathetic attempt I've seen in a WHILE.

Let's see what they knew for sure about Voyager:

1) It's sent spinning and weaponless after a lovetap with a single ship's beam.

2) It needs to be towed by a Cube to reach high speed.

3) They have access to one of the crew's mind. This is no small thing, Darkling. If only you would acknowledge this.. Still, that one person has knowledge that the weapon is not yet reported to the Federation.

[Evil Jerk]

Someday?? The mission was ready to go in 6 weeks (I believe, I will check in a minute).

They also had 100's under going the spy training, this was no small effort.

That just calls into question their efficiency. 100s of spies for the same job?

Think about it, a ship is going to create a whole new weapon against a deadly thraet and not send the plans to its home base - that makes no sense, they assumed that the Feds had a weapon that could cause heavy damage to their fleets and they had no knowledge on the fleet streght of this enemy or any other details.

But that takes time! There were no other Fed ships in the vicinity, no Fed outposts, no Fed anything, there was a big chance it had just acquired the weapon and was in the process of testing it, which would've been the perfect time to kill them.

Starting a war against an enemy you know nothing about except they have a rather nifty one shot kill weapon is rather stupid.

They were already at war!

[TheDarkling]

You are saying they know the weapon was the only copy - prove it, if they didnt know anything else about Voyager then why assume they know wether they have know if the Feds have transmitted the info to others.

My conclusion - their telepathy isnt perfect (I have proof).
Your conclusion - They knew the weapon was the only copy (you have no proof) and they didnt destroy it because they are cowards (No proof except your assumption).

I neednt tell you why I stick with my theory.

[Master of Ossus]

It looks like S-8472 did indeed have reasonably detailed knowledge of Voyager's capabilities, and the capabilities of the weapon. Kes had complete knowledge of the mission, and that Voyager was years from ever getting home. It strikes me as likely that 8472 also knew that information. I think it's pretty clear that their retreat was a poor strategic move. They had Voyager badly outnumbered and outgunned, yet they retreated instead of pressing the attack at the one time they had a clear shot. I don't know what their reasoning was, but it seems pretty clear that if they had fought it out they would probably have been able to destroy the ship.

[SirNitram]

You are saying they know the weapon was the only copy - prove it, if they didnt know anything else about Voyager then why assume they know wether they have know if the Feds have transmitted the info to others.

My conclusion - their telepathy isnt perfect (I have proof).
Your conclusion - They knew the weapon was the only copy (you have no proof) and they didnt destroy it because they are cowards (No proof except your assumption).

I neednt tell you why I stick with my theory.

They had Kes' mind. Kes knew the weapon was just developed. Prove this information did not travel on to the Species. If you can't, concede, because you're wrong.

[TheDarkling]

They werent at war with the Feds (Janeway does her "we are peacefull yadda yadda" speech).

They obviously dont know if other Fed assets are in the DQ (they assume the Feds are in the DQ months later) so they have very little info.

They dont know what we know people remmeber that, it was a dumb move but thats because we know they could have won there and then but they didnt know this.

They didnt have full access to Kes' mind Nitram they knew of the weapon, we arent told they know anything more.

[Evil Jerk]

You are saying they know the weapon was the only copy - prove it, if they didnt know anything else about Voyager then why assume they know wether they have know if the Feds have transmitted the info to others.

Because it's blatantley obvious, that's why.
The Borg don't have it, only one damn ship in the entire region has it, any sensible person would've blown Voyager out of the sky just in case.

My conclusion - their telepathy isnt perfect (I have proof).
Your conclusion - They knew the weapon was the only copy (you have no proof) and they didnt destroy it because they are cowards (No proof except your assumption).

I neednt tell you why I stick with my theory.

There was lots of evidence that it was the only weapon, lots of evidence that even if it was not, that they had only just begun to deploy it and after taking a dozen casualties (many because they stupidly flew in the patented Sitting Duck Formation) they ran and didn't even bother to take out Voyager which was right in front of them even though they had more than enough ships to do it.

[SirNitram]

They werent at war with the Feds (Janeway does her "we are peacefull yadda yadda" speech).

They obviously dont know if other Fed assets are in the DQ (they assume the Feds are in the DQ months later) so they have very little info.

They dont know what we know people remmeber that, it was a dumb move but thats because we know they could have won there and then but they didnt know this.

They didnt have full access to Kes' mind Nitram they knew of the weapon, we arent told they know anything more.

Prove this assumption.

[Master of Ossus]

Nitram, you are asking Darkling to prove a negative. However, I think that in this particular case he is wrong. It seems likely that Species 8472 had knowledge of the weapon, and that it was the only copy currently in existence.

[Stravo]

I hate to dip my foot into a raging debate but I just thought that I should add that just how effective was this wonder weapon that S8472 faced? IIRC when detonated it blew up like 8 or 10 of their ships....yet hundreds of Borg cubes were getting detsroyed in a single battle. So HOW can S8472 be called anything BUT cowardly or at least stragtically and tacically inept if they run from a weapon that can kill a dozen of their one man fighters...can't they just swarm their enemy and defeat them, after all trekkies constantly point out that s8472 had MILLIONS of bioships, so whats a few hundred in exchange for eradicating the enemy???

[Evil Jerk]

They werent at war with the Feds (Janeway does her "we are peacefull yadda yadda" speech).

And didn't you say they thought she was lying?
She was allied with the Borg, she attacked them, hell just being in proximity to the Borg made 8472 attack Voyager, of course they were at war!

They obviously dont know if other Fed assets are in the DQ (they assume the Feds are in the DQ months later) so they have very little info.

I didn't say they knew there were no Fed assets in the DQ, I said in that specific region, or do they not have any sort of sensors?

They dont know what we know people remmeber that, it was a dumb move but thats because we know they could have won there and then but they didnt know this.

They should know what we know, because it's blatantley obvious.

They didnt have full access to Kes' mind Nitram they knew of the weapon, we arent told they know anything more.

She could hear their thoughts, they could hear her thoughts, I'd say that's a start..

[SirNitram]

Nitram, you are asking Darkling to prove a negative. However, I think that in this particular case he is wrong. It seems likely that Species 8472 had knowledge of the weapon, and that it was the only copy currently in existence.

The presense of a negative is not free will to claim it to be infallible truth.

[Master of Ossus]

Nitram, you are asking Darkling to prove a negative. However, I think that in this particular case he is wrong. It seems likely that Species 8472 had knowledge of the weapon, and that it was the only copy currently in existence.

The presense of a negative is not free will to claim it to be infallible truth.

You are asking him to prove that they did not know something. Burden of proof for this sub-point is actually on you to prove that they did.

Now, I think that the evidence you have presented is reasonable evidence for that, but you cannot shift BoP like that.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: They didnt know Voyager was alone this proves they ddint have full access to Kes' mind, this is whats going wrong here you assume they know what we know and they dont.

SirNitram: Prove it did, I have proved they telepathy isnt very good, even if they know the weapon is new they obviously dont know that Voyager is the only one with it, unless you have some proof to present?
You also forget that they only had some measure of access to Kes' how did they know Janeway hadnt reported back to her superiors?

They didnt know Voyager was alone.
Theres no proof they thought she was the only ship witbh the tek (and some measure of proof against it).
They know that Voyager has built the weapon fast thus an enemy could have already begun arming its ships (an enemy that they dont know how to attack at this point I remind you)

They decide to pull back to a defensive posture and when no attack happens they decide to gather Intel on their new enemies to see how they can fight them.

[SirNitram]

Actually, no, Darkling, you haven't proven their telepathy was imperfect. All you said regarding is so far is 'Their telepathy is imperfect(I have proof)'. Post the proof, kid.

Again, I cite that a non-cowardly force would have destroyed Voyager, not immediately concocted your inane and stupid premise that they instantly thought all Borg ships were equipped. If nothing else, they knew they retained massive firepower advantage. They were simply scared shitless someone had actually managed to harm them.

You can rationalize cowardice, but it remains cowardice.

[Master of Ossus]

Master of Ossus: They didnt know Voyager was alone this proves they ddint have full access to Kes' mind, this is whats going wrong here you assume they know what we know and they dont.

[sarcasm]Last time I help you out.[end sarcasm]

Anyway, I don't know about this. I think I'm just going to sit here and watch on this thread, for a while.