How can you guys...

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2002-09-23 03:14pm

Perhaps it's simply one of those inane human concepts to stick up for someone. And I DID read Mike's site, thank you.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-23 03:18pm

I never said you didn't.

God, what the Hell's wrong with you?

And why bother sticking up for such obvious morons (I thought that was TheDarkling's job*

).

*Joking, Darkling, joking!!

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-23 03:47pm

I've had an opportunity to peruse all of these posts and have come to the following conclusion: The individuals spouting unsupported nonsense in the defense of ST are in fact closet Warsies attempting to ruffle feathers, and it appears to have worked quite nicely.

No one with access to the internet and all publications on both ST and SW could seriously claim that ST even approaches SW technology and capabilities. Nor could they possibly mistake turbolaser technology for 21st (or 22,23, etc) Century L.A.S.E.R. technology. The two are simply not the same. No L.A.S.E.R behaves the same as a turbolaser, where we see a plasma bolt of fixed length traveling at sublight speed and the target disintegrating before the visible bolt contacts it.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2002-09-23 04:39pm

jegs2 wrote:I've had an opportunity to peruse all of these posts and have come to the following conclusion: The individuals spouting unsupported nonsense in the defense of ST are in fact closet Warsies attempting to ruffle feathers, and it appears to have worked quite nicely.

No one with access to the internet and all publications on both ST and SW could seriously claim that ST even approaches SW technology and capabilities. Nor could they possibly mistake turbolaser technology for 21st (or 22,23, etc) Century L.A.S.E.R. technology. The two are simply not the same. No L.A.S.E.R behaves the same as a turbolaser, where we see a plasma bolt of fixed length traveling at sublight speed and the target disintegrating before the visible bolt contacts it.

Yes it looks like it worked for some ppl but not me b/c after all they're just noobs. In time they will learn.

Cyaround,
Jason

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-23 04:53pm

You know I actually though this guy was joking for a while because this is just a rehash of every old Trekkie argument ever destroyed and since I haven't gotten in my daily does of fun I guess its time to burn him to the ground, let me begin:

Captain Zod wrote:Think the Empire has a chance against the Federation?

I can think this because its the truth based on rational analysis of the data available. How do you determine the winner by picking a name out of a hat?

They use primitive lasers, which can't penetrate even navigational shields!

.

Outrangeous Okana argument, lets break this down:
1) For the record Riker says "THAT won't penetrate..." which means he is referencing JUST THAT PARTICULAR VESSEL.

2) From "Q Who"
WORF: A type of laser beam is slicing into the Saucer Section.

3) SW weapons are NOT lasers. Oservation of their observed behavior (traveling at less than 'c', visible from angles other than head-on, etc)

4) AOTC:ICS specifically states that there is both an invisible (EM Band but not neccesarily laser) component and visible component. In other words it ain't a laser, its a hybrid weapon.

4) The SW:VD states that blasters (and turbolasers) use highly charged plasmas activated by lasers thus the impact energy is carried, to a great degree, by the KE/Thermal energy of the plasma.

In other words ST vessels are susceptible to laser weaponry and even if they weren't SW beam weaponry is not laser-only.

And while Voyager has a cruise speed of 1000+ c, the "fastest ship in the galaxy" Falcon can barely due 1.5c!

Ahh the old 1.5c argument, lets shoot that to shreds shall we.

Star Wars by George Lucas (softcover pg 91, trilogy edition)
" She'll make point five FACTORS [emphasis mine] beyond light-speed."

Now what is a factor? That's right we have no clue what the scaling is for hyperdrives other than, according to Zahn, a .4 hyperdrive makes about 127 LY/hr. Anyway we know that Darth Maul in TPM crossed from Coruscant to Tatooine in less than a day which would require a minimum velocity well into the millions of multiples of c.

And if that wasn't enough, they don't even have 1000 ships.

Ahh yes the off the cuff Solo Quote. To redirect you I note that:

1) Solo stated that the possible was impossible in the very same sentence so obviously he is WRONG.

2) WEG material pegs teh Imeprial fleet at well into the millions of ships

3) Direct quote from Paelleon places the number of ISDs in service at 25,000

Since Solo though that was a big impressive number, they probably has around 300-500 ships.

Pulling numbers out of your ass eh? Fine lets assume that Solo meant they only have 500 ships. The Death Star, according to Dodonna has greater firepower than half a starfleet. Now that means that 250 vessels = DS firepower. Minimum power for the DS is 1.1e33 W which, divided amongst 250 ships means each ship in the Empire has an average firepower of 4.6e30 W, thanks for giing me such generous numbers.

Compare that to the fleet in "Sacrafice of Angels" which was 600 and concidered small!

When each of those ships would succumb to the medium guns on an ISD I don't care how many vessels you have. I also don't care because ST doesn't have enough ships to throw at even a Single ISD and make it blink.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » 2002-09-23 05:22pm

Outrangeous Okana argument, lets break this down:
1) For the record Riker says "THAT won't penetrate..." which means he is referencing JUST THAT PARTICULAR VESSEL.

How do you know?

2) From "Q Who"
WORF: A type of laser beam is slicing into the Saucer Section.

The Borg adapt. Do you have proff that they don't?

3) SW weapons are NOT lasers. Oservation of their observed behavior (traveling at less than 'c', visible from angles other than head-on, etc)

Look at the word. Turbo-Laser. TURBO comes from turbine. LASER is... surprise, a LASER! So they're lasers that have something to do with turbines.

4) AOTC:ICS specifically states that there is both an invisible (EM Band but not neccesarily laser) component and visible component. In other words it ain't a laser, its a hybrid weapon.

Oh, finally you make some sense. BUt you're still wrong; the part that does the damage is the laser, and Federation shields stop lasers. What the hell does a tracer matter?

4) The SW:VD states that blasters (and turbolasers) use highly charged plasmas activated by lasers thus the impact energy is carried, to a great degree, by the KE/Thermal energy of the plasma.

It does not SPECIFICALLY say that turbolasers work on the same methods as blasters.

In other words ST vessels are susceptible to laser weaponry and even if they weren't SW beam weaponry is not laser-only.

A plasma tracer is supposed to go through Trek shields? Come on, stop pulling my leg.

1) Solo stated that the possible was impossible in the very same sentence so obviously he is WRONG.

He's a smuggler. He should know about this sort of thing.

2) WEG material pegs teh Imeprial fleet at well into the millions of ships

Who's Weg?

3) Direct quote from Paelleon places the number of ISDs in service at 25,000

I didn't hear that in the movie.

Pulling numbers out of your ass eh? Fine lets assume that Solo meant they only have 500 ships. The Death Star, according to Dodonna has greater firepower than half a starfleet. Now that means that 250 vessels = DS firepower. Minimum power for the DS is 1.1e33 W which, divided amongst 250 ships means each ship in the Empire has an average firepower of 4.6e30 W, thanks for giing me such generous numbers.

How did you get the minimum power for the Death Star?

Compare that to the fleet in "Sacrafice of Angels" which was 600 and concidered small!
When each of those ships would succumb to the medium guns on an ISD I don't care how many vessels you have. I also don't care because ST doesn't have enough ships to throw at even a Single ISD and make it blink.

Look at how many registry numbers there are! USS Voyager is NCC-74656. USS Reliant, in 2280, was NCC-1864. But we still see a lot of Mirandas around, so that's over 70,000 ships that could still be in service! Sure, some were probably destroyed, but it's stupid to assume that the Federation has anything less than 40,000 ships.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-23 05:27pm

Jesus, just whose ass did you crawl out of! TOWNMNBM's?

90% of your shit was discredited years ago.

Just go the fuck away if that's the only kind of argument you can construct.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-09-23 05:31pm

Ok, NOW it's obviously a joke

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-09-23 05:33pm

Um... should I close this thread down?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-09-23 05:38pm

Nah leave it up. That way I can post useless crap to up my post count.

post post posty post post.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2002-09-23 05:38pm

Yes please. This is getting redicolous. He doesn't even know what he's talking about.

Cyaround,
Jason

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » 2002-09-23 05:39pm

Captain Zod wrote:

And while Voyager has a cruise speed of 1000+ c, the "fastest ship in the galaxy" Falcon can barely due 1.5c!
So you take Solo's ".5 past lightspeed" quote literally eh?
Well then, since you'll ignore all the evidence that it's a .5 Hyperdrive capable of crossing the galaxy, I'll take the quote in the TNG episode with the wargames literally, when the Ferengi refers to the fact that the Enterprise lost it's "lightspeed drive", therefore they can only go near lightspeed.

Provide a quote. And New evidence overrides old.

And SW never crossed a galaxy as the Empire is so small.

I will, and using your same "Solo is Unfalible speaking the Word Of God" idea...

Not 10 minutes later Solo says "I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other".

Now since he OVIOUSLY couldn't have been exaggerating, or in any way be incorrect, he must HAVE crossed the Galaxy...

Simple isn't it??

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-23 05:39pm

I was gonna post rebuttals to that stuff there, but then I realized every single point was garbage.

Enough with the idiots already!

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2002-09-23 05:44pm

Man... Okay Captain, how about this: Since you support the idea that the Federation can defeat the Empire (which I share) why don't you stop arguing old ideas (old here, at any rate) and help us Trekkies by coming up with ways the Federation could adapt and advance to give it the ability to stand up to the Empire?

Also, as to Prommie's argument about fleet numbers: Apparently, the Feds used over 500 ships against the Borg in 2373 (ST:FC) and lost about 300 of them. In addition, they apparently lost about a thousand vessels in the Dominion War during the first THREE MONTHS alone befire the tide turned. Also add in all the ships that are retired, scrapped, or destroyed by other means, and the Feds couldn't possibly have a fleet of 70,000 ships.

Unless they used time travel to, say, bring ships from how they were a few minutes ago to the present. Actually, that's a nifty idea! But I doubt the UFP has the tech needed to pull something like that off.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-09-23 05:45pm

My editions are in this colour

PROMETHEUS wrote:
2) From "Q Who"
WORF: A type of laser beam is slicing into the Saucer Section.
The Borg adapt. Do you have proff that they don't?

Any of Worf's carved cutting tools, the tommy gun, species 2847's claws, not to mention that I have only heard of them adapting as a defencive tactic and not as an offensive tactic.

3) SW weapons are NOT lasers. Oservation of their observed behavior (traveling at less than 'c', visible from angles other than head-on, etc)
Look at the word. Turbo-Laser. TURBO comes from turbine. LASER is... surprise, a LASER! So they're lasers that have something to do with turbines.

A Rifle is named after the rifling mechanism in the barrel that gives the bullet spin and therefor accuracy. Your phaser RIFLES are projectile weapons that have grooves cut down their barrels to give the projectile fired more accuracy. My brother is called Neil from the ancient word meaning champion, therefor he must be a champion of something .See how stupid this argument is? If something has a name suggesting one thing, but the propeties of that thing contradict the name the name is , in essence, wrong. Also you haven't done anything to counter the points made apart from state the name, which in this case does sweet FA

1) Solo stated that the possible was impossible in the very same sentence so obviously he is WRONG.
He's a smuggler. He should know about this sort of thing.

Why should he know "this sort of thing"? And what's the fact that he is a smuggler got to do with the point made?

2) WEG material pegs teh Imeprial fleet at well into the millions of ships
Who's Weg?

West Ends Games who make the SW RPG. A dodgy source at best

3) Direct quote from Paelleon places the number of ISDs in service at 25,000
I didn't hear that in the movie.

It's not in the movie. It is in the Expanded Universe in one of the Thrawn trilogy IIRC. Before you do Darkstar's "EU cannot be used" it is Lucasfilm policy that the EU is official continunuity (sp) and is therefor true except when overruled by the films which are absolute cannon.

Pulling numbers out of your ass eh? Fine lets assume that Solo meant they only have 500 ships. The Death Star, according to Dodonna has greater firepower than half a starfleet. Now that means that 250 vessels = DS firepower. Minimum power for the DS is 1.1e33 W which, divided amongst 250 ships means each ship in the Empire has an average firepower of 4.6e30 W, thanks for giing me such generous numbers.
How did you get the minimum power for the Death Star?

It's the minimum amount of energy required to destroy a planet and scatter it's remains into an asteroid field as the Death Star did to Aldeeran

Compare that to the fleet in "Sacrafice of Angels" which was 600 and concidered small!
When each of those ships would succumb to the medium guns on an ISD I don't care how many vessels you have. I also don't care because ST doesn't have enough ships to throw at even a Single ISD and make it blink.
Look at how many registry numbers there are! USS Voyager is NCC-74656. USS Reliant, in 2280, was NCC-1864. But we still see a lot of Mirandas around, so that's over 70,000 ships that could still be in service! Sure, some were probably destroyed, but it's stupid to assume that the Federation has anything less than 40,000 ships.

The fleet in Sacrifice of Angels was made of components from two seperate fleets that were reduced from battle damage. IIRC in the first engagement against the Dominion an entire fleet was lost according to Bashir. The Battle of Wolf 309 was a massive loss for the Feds. They have gone through wars with the Klingons (TOS and movies up till ST:6), the Cardassians (ref in TNG where the peace treaty is signed and the DMZ created, as well as the Maquis being created), the DOminion (and cardies again) and also have had to stop incursions from the borg.

Captain Zod · Post by **Captain Zod** » 2002-09-23 05:45pm

The Death Star, as proved by DarkStar who is a super moderate trekkie, just uses a trick to destroy planets.

A mere 20 ships OTOH in ST can obliterate planets in an hour.

Good grief...
-Crayz9000

Captain Zod · Post by **Captain Zod** » 2002-09-23 05:47pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote:Man... Okay Captain, how about this: Since you support the idea that the Federation can defeat the Empire (which I share) why don't you stop arguing old ideas (old here, at any rate) and help us Trekkies by coming up with ways the Federation could adapt and advance to give it the ability to stand up to the Empire?

Also, as to Prommie's argument about fleet numbers: Apparently, the Feds used over 500 ships against the Borg in 2373 (ST:FC) and lost about 300 of them. In addition, they apparently lost about a thousand vessels in the Dominion War during the first THREE MONTHS alone befire the tide turned. Also add in all the ships that are retired, scrapped, or destroyed by other means, and the Feds couldn't possibly have a fleet of 70,000 ships.

Unless they used time travel to, say, bring ships from how they were a few minutes ago to the present. Actually, that's a nifty idea! But I doubt the UFP has the tech needed to pull something like that off.

Why? SW weapons are pittifully weaker, never mind useless, so there shields will be as well, they rely on primitive fusion and they barely go 1.5 c. That means they'll be killed by a Miranda.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-23 05:49pm

Shut the hell up.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » 2002-09-23 05:53pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Shut the hell up.

You're always laughing off anything that we Trekkies say, and then even denying us the right to say anything we want. You want an example? One of your "moderators" already threatened to close this thread!

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-09-23 05:53pm

You call Darkstar a moderate debater? He got his ass handed to him by other Trekkies!
As one Trekkie (lord Edam) said: (not exact wording)
"You only appear to be the Last Bastion Of Trek (as DS called himself) because as soon as you turn up everyone els f*cks off. they know that you'll spout a load BS, then go away thinking you've won, leaving us to clean up the mess you made of our properly constructed arguments which were getting somewhere untill you strolled in and f*cked them up."

He has a Black Knight Syndrome / Iron Man syndrome , he thinks that if he can outlast you, no matter how many times you crush his arguments, he has one.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-23 05:54pm

That's because it's worthless BS that's been gone over and over and over for at LEAST FOUR GOD DAMN YEARS< YOU STUPID FUCK!!

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-09-23 05:57pm

Calm down, Spanky. If this guy's trying to troll, that's the kind of response he wants.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-09-23 05:57pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:You're always laughing off anything that we Trekkies say, and then even denying us the right to say anything we want. You want an example? One of your "moderators" already threatened to close this thread!

What are we doing now. WE'RE GIVING YOU THE OPPATUNITY TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT YOU PILLOCK!!!

The mod threatened to close the thread because all your arguments are a pile of bollocks and we've heard it , and crushed it, loads of times! Consider yourself lucky that you don't ahve a Village Idiot tag right now!

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-23 06:01pm

Crayz9000 wrote:Calm down, Spanky. If this guy's trying to troll, that's the kind of response he wants.

Indeed. You're right. I'll be ignoring these worthless fucks from now on.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2002-09-23 06:01pm

Captain Zod wrote:Why? SW weapons are pittifully weaker, never mind useless, so there shields will be as well, they rely on primitive fusion and they barely go 1.5 c. That means they'll be killed by a Miranda.

Have you read anything we wrote that refutes your statements? Troll-Noob Trekkie here folks. Doesn't even respond to what we say.

Cyaround,
Jason

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

How can you guys...

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