How to defeat an ISD with Starfleet Resources

[Invader ZIm]

Two of them required you to be a superior position, the first required me(the Empire) to give a shit about my CONQUERED foe, and the last requires my men to sit there and take no heed of protocol.

As an aside:
Either the Empire is fighting a war of annilitation or one of conquest.
If the Empire didnt give a rat's-ass about the Federation then why bother to conquer then in the 1st place?

In the OP the Empire has destroyed more worlds then they have conquered.

So why should it bother them if the rogue elements of their opposition go "We're going to take down another!!!" ?

I noticed you answered one question but avoided the other. Let me phrase it defferently:

You are part of the command structure of the Federation fleet mentioned in the OP. Your boss, the fleet Admiral has been tasked by Star Fleet with capturing an ISD. He inturn orders you to draw up an operation that will accomplish this overall mission goal. Assuming he does not want to a) surrender because the mission is futile or b) waste his whole fleet on the mission: What would you suggest he do?

[Ghost Rider]

Oh you mean *is this thread pointless one?*

No the reason I didn't put my personal opinion of it is because it's a discussion to see if people can come up with any ideas that fall with reason. Your four points either require a Federation with the upper hand, a completely inept crew or finally the Empire caring about their conquered worlds so much that they wouldn't call the bluff of an inferior foe.

So as to your current question I would try to capture the bridge, but the situation is more along the lines of asking a Roman navy to capture a modern US naval warship surround by it's appropriate forces.

[Invader ZIm]

Thanks for illustrating my point.

[Robert Walper]

However, since these Federation ships are sneaking up on the ISD presumeably undetected, why does it have it's shields raised? And noteably, in STVOY "Think Tank", Voyager didn't have any trouble beaming Seven of Nine off the Think Tank vessel despite it's hull have a neutronium composite.

Particle shields are always on, energy shields are raised in combat. Given knowledge of the enemy having cloaking devices, I order my ships to have energy shields up 100% of the time and screw fuel consumption.

The OP did not specify you being in command of the ISD or being allowed to issue orders for "shields up" 100% of the time. You're in charge of the Federation taskforce, remember?

The entire point of the thread in question is to suggest ideas and methods you would try to come up with to accomplish the objective(capture an intact ISD). If you're unable to come up with said suggestions or ideas, then by all means just point out any weaknesses or flaws in other's suggestions/ideas. Comments like "I order my ships to have energy shields up 100% of the time and screw fuel consumption." is not contributing in any meaningful manner, and is nothing but fan wanking IMO.

[SirNitram]

Keeping energy shields up all the time? Quite possible. It'll cut the fuel load of an ISD from 5 years to probably around 2, but if cloaked ships are known, it's quite possible.

More likely, if cloaked ships are common, there will be more CGT Arrays distributed, so the cloaked ship will never have a chance.

[YT300000]

In the case of working transporters:
Beam the crew of the ISD out(I would beam them into vacuum of space, although I think the Federation would prefer holding cells) . I always thought it was funny when they beamed their own men in and not the crew of the hostile ships out.

Your scenario is dependant upon the following conditions being true:

1. Your ship being able to sneak up on the ISD without being shredded at the molecular level.

If even a tenth of the fleet can utilize cloaking devices, they may very well easily sneak up on this single ISD. Last time I checked, a lone ISD lacks the ability to detect cloaked vessels.

Crystal Gravfield Trap sensors. And if the ISD detects the ships, it will raise its shields.

[Robert Walper]

Keeping energy shields up all the time? Quite possible. It'll cut the fuel load of an ISD from 5 years to probably around 2, but if cloaked ships are known, it's quite possible.

Of course it's possible. But we're interested in whether it's likely to expect an ISD commander to run his ship with shields activated full time, particularily if all the major powers are considered defeated.

More likely, if cloaked ships are common, there will be more CGT Arrays distributed, so the cloaked ship will never have a chance.

I see no reason to assume ISDs are going to be equipped with CGT arrays. The ISD in TESB certainly didn't have one.

[Robert Walper]

Your scenario is dependant upon the following conditions being true:

1. Your ship being able to sneak up on the ISD without being shredded at the molecular level.

If even a tenth of the fleet can utilize cloaking devices, they may very well easily sneak up on this single ISD. Last time I checked, a lone ISD lacks the ability to detect cloaked vessels.

Crystal Gravfield Trap sensors. And if the ISD detects the ships, it will raise its shields.

TESB showed that a ISD lacks the capability to detect a cloaked vessel, or even try. If you're submitting that we are to modify existing ISDs so they can detect cloaked ships, then of course the scenario changes.

[SirNitram]

Keeping energy shields up all the time? Quite possible. It'll cut the fuel load of an ISD from 5 years to probably around 2, but if cloaked ships are known, it's quite possible.

Of course it's possible. But we're interested in whether it's likely to expect an ISD commander to run his ship with shields activated full time, particularily if all the major powers are considered defeated.

If cloaked ships are running around, major powers are not considered defeated. This isn't rocket science.

More likely, if cloaked ships are common, there will be more CGT Arrays distributed, so the cloaked ship will never have a chance.

I see no reason to assume ISDs are going to be equipped with CGT arrays. The ISD in TESB certainly didn't have one.

Funny, I don't recall Piett saying 'This ship doesn't have the capability to spot cloaked ships'. You must have watched it with your magic glasses on.

[Rogue 9]

Actually, he's getting that from Captain Needa, I think, when the Millennium Falcon disappeared. He said that no ship that small has a cloaking device. He then did not proceed to order any kind of scans to attempt to detect a cloaked ship, instead immediately consigning himself to death at Vader's hands. I don't know about him, but if the alternative was getting choked to death and I had any means at all that could even possibly reveal a cloaked ship, I'd use those means at once. He made no move to do so. Ergo, he had no means of detecting a vessel that from his perspective had to be cloaked somewhere around.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually, he's getting that from Captain Needa, I think, when the Millennium Falcon disappeared. He said that no ship that small has a cloaking device. He then did not proceed to order any kind of scans to attempt to detect a cloaked ship, instead immediately consigning himself to death at Vader's hands. I don't know about him, but if the alternative was getting choked to death and I had any means at all that could even possibly reveal a cloaked ship, I'd use those means at once. He made no move to do so. Ergo, he had no means of detecting a vessel that from his perspective had to be cloaked somewhere around.

No, Needa's EXACT words were

Needa: I shall assume full responsiblity for losing them, and apologize to Lord Vader. Meanwhile continue to scan the area.

Hmm seems they had some way of tracking them doesn't i.

[Rogue 9]

All right, lets try it this way. The Thrawn trilogy. The cloaked asteroids around Coruscant. The New Republic had Star Destroyers and couldn't detect the asteroids. Therefore Star Destroyers can't see through cloaks.

[Crazedwraith]

Actually, he's getting that from Captain Needa, I think, when the Millennium Falcon disappeared. He said that no ship that small has a cloaking device. He then did not proceed to order any kind of scans to attempt to detect a cloaked ship, instead immediately consigning himself to death at Vader's hands. I don't know about him, but if the alternative was getting choked to death and I had any means at all that could even possibly reveal a cloaked ship, I'd use those means at once. He made no move to do so. Ergo, he had no means of detecting a vessel that from his perspective had to be cloaked somewhere around.

No, Needa's EXACT words were

Needa: I shall assume full responsiblity for losing them, and apologize to Lord Vader. Meanwhile continue to scan the area.

Hmm seems they had some way of tracking them doesn't i.

Not really. He properly told to keep scannnig sdo they would notice if Solo declokaed or to snse hyperspace immissions from the falcon. If they could scan for clokaed vessels don't you think he would wait for the results before going of to get himself force choked?

[Ghost Rider]

Actually, he's getting that from Captain Needa, I think, when the Millennium Falcon disappeared. He said that no ship that small has a cloaking device. He then did not proceed to order any kind of scans to attempt to detect a cloaked ship, instead immediately consigning himself to death at Vader's hands. I don't know about him, but if the alternative was getting choked to death and I had any means at all that could even possibly reveal a cloaked ship, I'd use those means at once. He made no move to do so. Ergo, he had no means of detecting a vessel that from his perspective had to be cloaked somewhere around.

No, Needa's EXACT words were

Needa: I shall assume full responsiblity for losing them, and apologize to Lord Vader. Meanwhile continue to scan the area.

Hmm seems they had some way of tracking them doesn't i.

Not really. He properly told to keep scannnig sdo they would notice if Solo declokaed or to snse hyperspace immissions from the falcon. If they could scan for clokaed vessels don't you think he would wait for the results before going of to get himself force choked?

Vader just demanded a report.

What was he supposed to do...go tell Vader : "Hold a sec I'm going to find them."

He had no choice, he knew he was going to pay for not capturing the Falcon right then and there.

[Patrick Degan]

[Why should the Imperials care if Federationists devestate a Federation world under Imperial occupation? Furthermore, an ISD can devestate a Federation world without even having to employ the requisite firepower for a full BDZ op. A five minute bombardment with the heavy turbolasers would unleash sufficent energy to totally depopulate the target world, and the Imperials would do that upon receipt of a Federationist terror threat simply to make a point.

Is this a presupposition that there isnt anything of higher value to the Empire than a single ISD?

Such as...? Raw materials can be gotten from any planet and large asteroids. Federation technology is a meagre joke compared to the Empire's, so there's nothing of value in that direction. None of the Empire's own worlds are threatened, and the only real bargaining chip at play here is labour power. The mere fact that the ex-Federation's rogue military remnant would be willing to slaughter its own people hands a huge reason for the former citizens of the Federation to swear fealty to the Empire, and the mere threat of a far more certain and swifter retaliation is more likely to cause disaffection in the ranks of the rogue Starfleet —whose personnel may not desire the destruction of their own homeworlds as the possible price for a political abstraction.

The value equation doesn't even enter into the picture in the first place. No Imperial commander in his right mind would hand over a ship of the line to what essentially at this point are terrorists; not only for the obvious military reasons but also because one such ascession would simply invite more terror blackmail. The terror threat is a non-starter.

And exactly what do the fugitive remnants of a vanquished nation have to offer to an officer of the victorious conquering power to induce a defection?

I dont nessesarillay think that they will. But its a more productive approach that expending 1000 of the last Federation starships in a useless raid to capture a single ISD.

The rogue Starfleet remnant have nothing of value to offer any Imperial officer to encourage disaffection, so this too is a non-starter.

Why should a highly disciplined, professional military force in a high state of morale and training entertain the idea of a mutiny? How do agitators get on board, infiltrate the crew, and avoid ship's security in the process to carry out this project?

Again they might well not. But wouldn't this be more efficent than wasting the few resources you have under your command in a hopeless operation?

And again, the rogue Starfleet remnant have nothing of material or political value to offer to Imperial personnel to encourage disaffection, so this also is a non-starter.

And how is this contaminant smuggled on board? And how does it violate the laws of physics or biology to achieve swift shipwide contamination? How does it defeat the ship's own compartmentalisation procedures which can act far faster than any biological, chemical, or radiological agent can possibly spread through such a large internal volume as contained in a stardestroyer? How does this affect Imperial squaddies wearing NBC-sealed body armour, nevermind wardroids?

If you are looking for a "bulletproof" method by which the Federation could capture a single ISD then look elsewhere. I outlined 4 options which in my opinion had a much higher success rate than throwing fleet assets into the fire.

The problem is that none of these options are viable. A threat to destroy a Federation planet carries no weight as a blackmail tactic against the Empire, and has a huge blowback potential both politically and militarily. Neither does any attempted inducement at disaffection; there is no realistic motivation to join with a defeated nation's rogue military remnant. And option four requires clever trickery and sheer, dumb luck on such a huge scale that any such plan is far more likely to fall from its own weight before the target ISD could even be approached.

The plain fact is that if the Federationists had the firepower to be able to board and capture an ISD in the first place, the Federation would not have lost the war. And clever trickery or attempted terrorist blackmail is a very poor substitute for lack of firepower.

Beyond this, it really is to wonder that anybody imagines that either scheme is remotely feasible, and that Federationists would be willing to "fight to the last man" after their nation has been crushed by a vastly superior power instead of simply accepting reality. While the Zakdorns (and some Trek-cultists) may be stupid enough to believe that the word "mismatch" is synonomous with "challenge" instead of "victimisation", logic and history both demonstrate in brutal, concrete terms that the Superior Force will always conquer the inferior. Without fail. And the greater the power-disparity between the two, the more effortless the conquest.

[Shogoki]

If even a tenth of the fleet can utilize cloaking devices, they may very well easily sneak up on this single ISD. Last time I checked, a lone ISD lacks the ability to detect cloaked vessels.

Crystal Gravfield Trap sensors. And if the ISD detects the ships, it will raise its shields.

TESB showed that a ISD lacks the capability to detect a cloaked vessel, or even try. If you're submitting that we are to modify existing ISDs so they can detect cloaked ships, then of course the scenario changes.

No, TESB show the ISD lacks the capability to detect SW's clocked vessels, a clock so effective it's double blind and requires special equipment to be detected, for all we know lesser clocking methods can be easily detected with standard equipment, wich is powerful enough to establish real time communications across the galaxy, and hence are not used in the SW galaxy because they are deemed useless.

[FOG3]

Lets say by soem miracle they actually defeated the crew of the Star Destroyer. Can anyone here actually read the bridge consoles we've seen on the Executor or show a similar language? How are they going to use the ship if they can't read what the console says? They might have the civilian script halfway down from captured worlds but military lingo would probably still stump them. Also the longer they're trying to figure out what the console says so they can use it the longer the Imperial Fleet has to show up and reseize the vessel.

If they don't turn off the Transponder they'd probably unknowingly be broadcasting their location to any nearby Imperial forces if they manage to move it. If it's damaged they're likelyhood of being able to repair it is rather low.

[Rogue 9]

Universal Translator.

Now then, as for ST cloaks, SW sensors, and realtime communications: 1, Starfleet can establish realtime communication across the AQ at least. Its not exclusive to SW. (Did Voyager ever communicate with the AQ? I never watched the series much.) Secondly, I'd say that SW cloaks are inferior to ST ones unless I'm missing something major. I'm sure the Romulans could build a two way cloak as well, but why would they? If the Empire could build a one way cloak they certainly would have done so, since operations where you can't see out just suck. Too many variables. 3rd, what does communication have to do with sensors and cloaks anyway?

[Ghost Rider]

Universal Translator.

Now then, as for ST cloaks, SW sensors, and realtime communications: 1, Starfleet can establish realtime communication across the AQ at least. Its not exclusive to SW. (Did Voyager ever communicate with the AQ? I never watched the series much.) Secondly, I'd say that SW cloaks are inferior to ST ones unless I'm missing something major. I'm sure the Romulans could build a two way cloak as well, but why would they? If the Empire could build a one way cloak they certainly would have done so, since operations where you can't see out just suck. Too many variables. 3rd, what does communication have to do with sensors and cloaks anyway?

Prove the Universal translator will do it's task on an alien race from another galaxy. It's a slippery slope to presume it will do it's job in the situation of military protocol against a species from another galaxy.

Burden of proof is for you to show that the Romulans have the capabilites of building a superior cloak and the inferiority of the SW cloak.

[DaveJB]

Why would the Romulans even get involved with the Federation to begin with? If what they did against the Dominion was anything to go by, they'd just sign a non-agression pact with the Empire. Can you imagine what the response of a Romulan diplomat would be if the Feds asked him if he could spare any cloaks? Put it this way, if the Imps found out what the Romulans had been up to, they'd tear up their treaty in pretty short order!

Even if they didn't sign a treaty, a war against the Empire would leave them in no state to help the Feds out.

[Robert Walper]

Keeping energy shields up all the time? Quite possible. It'll cut the fuel load of an ISD from 5 years to probably around 2, but if cloaked ships are known, it's quite possible.

Of course it's possible. But we're interested in whether it's likely to expect an ISD commander to run his ship with shields activated full time, particularily if all the major powers are considered defeated.

If cloaked ships are running around, major powers are not considered defeated. This isn't rocket science.

The point is lure an ISD to a specific location, as in using a fake distress signal or whatever. Your assertion that ISDs are going to run with their shields up full time doesn't strike me as credible.

I see no reason to assume ISDs are going to be equipped with CGT arrays. The ISD in TESB certainly didn't have one.

Funny, I don't recall Piett saying 'This ship doesn't have the capability to spot cloaked ships'. You must have watched it with your magic glasses on.

Quote:

"Track them! They may come around for another pass!"
"Captain Needa, the ship no longer appears on our scope."
"Impossible! No ship that small has a cloaking device!"
"Sir, Lord Vader demands a update on our pursuit."

Clearly indicates to me that a vessel employing a cloaking device will disappear off an ISD's scope(ie: sensors).

[Spanky The Dolphin]

CGTs have to be deployed, Rob, they're not part of the standard collection of sensors that are always used.

[Robert Walper]

CGTs have to be deployed, Rob, they're not part of the standard collection of sensors that are always used.

Exactly. So why is everyone assuming the targetted ISD is going to have one?

Quote: "They decide to send in an expiditionary force of a single sector fleet."

I saw no mention in the OP anywhere about the fleet being specially equipped for this mission of taking on the Trek galaxy.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

They have to suspect a cloaked ship first before deploying a CGT.

[FOG3]

...

Okay, I must have missed something because the EU reference I remember to CGTs indicated they were rather exotic pieces of hardware. Certainly nothing one would normally be carrying on their ships. Otherwise why did the New Republic have to go through so much trouble to just get one when they controlled Coruscant, Several captured Star Destroyers, and had Imperial defectors. Not to mention they'd render the use of the improved cloaking device even more pointless if CGTs were common enough to be normal equipment.