Don't know how to take this (Enterprise related)

[Darth Wong]

I think that its technology and events must be admitted to the debate. Although they horribly screw up continuity and frequently contradict what happened in previous series, I think that we should try to include it in our debates whenever possible. I don't like it, but it obviously is part of the Trek universe. Damn.

Why? Voerhoven's Starship Troopers is "based on" the original novel, but that doesn't mean that anything from the movie is admissible when talking about the original Starship Troopers universe.

[Parallax]

How about using an Extended Universe type rule of thumb for it?
Eg, Enterprise is canon except for what is contradicted by TOS.

[EmperorMing]

Close enough; it will do.

They just need to stop using ***babble for plot devices! (if that is possible...)

[Master of Ossus]

I think that its technology and events must be admitted to the debate. Although they horribly screw up continuity and frequently contradict what happened in previous series, I think that we should try to include it in our debates whenever possible. I don't like it, but it obviously is part of the Trek universe. Damn.

Why? Voerhoven's Starship Troopers is "based on" the original novel, but that doesn't mean that anything from the movie is admissible when talking about the original Starship Troopers universe.

I tend to offer this as a defacto solution. We accept DS9 and even VOY as being ST, even though they were after Gene's unfortunate passing. Similarly, I don't see much of a difference between VOY and Enterprise, except by order of degree. Both of them screwed with continuity. Enterprise does it to a greater extent, but I don't see that there is any categorical difference between Enterprise and Voyager, and I think that we should try to be consistent with our judgement. Thus, unless anyone can show reason why Enterprise is not ST, but VOY is, I will tend to include Enterprise whenever possible.

Clearly, neither one of those shows is a shining homage to Gene and TOS, or even to TNG, but I don't think it is up to us to be arbitrarily dispatching of even a worthless show such as Enterprise without reason.

[Darth Wong]

I tend to offer this as a defacto solution. We accept DS9 and even VOY as being ST, even though they were after Gene's unfortunate passing.

Frankly, I accept VOY and DS9 as genuine ST only to humour Trekkies. I don't think they are legitimate ST. They are B&B-Trek, not Star Trek.

Similarly, I don't see much of a difference between VOY and Enterprise, except by order of degree. Both of them screwed with continuity. Enterprise does it to a greater extent, but I don't see that there is any categorical difference between Enterprise and Voyager, and I think that we should try to be consistent with our judgement. Thus, unless anyone can show reason why Enterprise is not ST, but VOY is, I will tend to include Enterprise whenever possible.

I would argue that all B&B-Trek should be thought of as subordinate to Star Trek, including both DS9 and Voyager.

Clearly, neither one of those shows is a shining homage to Gene and TOS, or even to TNG, but I don't think it is up to us to be arbitrarily dispatching of even a worthless show such as Enterprise without reason.

We have a reason; the fact that materials added onto a fictional universe after its creator's death occupy a different level. See my earlier hypothetical LOTR example.

{EDIT: I would also add that DS9 and VOY are different in one way; they occupy a point in the timeline after Gene's Star Trek stops, so it is much easier to argue that they do not fuck with existing continuity. ENT, on the other hand, is pissing all over continuity because it takes place at a point in the timeline prior to Gene's Star Trek}.

[Lord Poe]

[quote="Alyeska
Hmm, gives significant standing to the TMP novel that Roddenberry wrote. Course I have always argued for its inclussion, but some people stated copyrights are more important then the vision of the creator. [/quote]

Alyeska, Roddenberry didn't write the TMP novelization; Alan Dean Foster ghostwrote it. (Just as he did the SW novelization) He also wrote the script for TMP, ("In Thy Image") and from what I've read, fought for creative control as well.

Roddenberry got Trek on the air, but many of the elementss that the fans revere most (Like the "logical" and emotionless Mr. Spock, Klingons, Romulans, etc.) were contributions of others, most notably Gene L. Coon.

[Darth Wong]

Alyeska, Roddenberry didn't write the TMP novelization; Alan Dean Foster ghostwrote it. (Just as he did the SW novelization) He also wrote the script for TMP, ("In Thy Image") and from what I've read, fought for creative control as well.

Hmm, interesting. I didn't know that (but then again, I was speaking more of a general sense, and not of this particular novelization).

Roddenberry got Trek on the air, but many of the elementss that the fans revere most (Like the "logical" and emotionless Mr. Spock, Klingons, Romulans, etc.) were contributions of others, most notably Gene L. Coon.

True; that's an interesting point. Is Gene Roddenberry the legitimate creator of Star Trek? If not, then a lot of these points might not apply. He certainly didn't retain the kind of control over the franchise that George Lucas has over Star Wars. Perhaps it could be argued that it was a collaborative effort, and that no one has legitimate moral rights over the thing (this would imply that "canon" is pretty much left up to the fan base to define).

But in the case of Enterprise, it is still a special case because its own tagline says that it is only "based on" Star Trek.

[The Yosemite Bear]

So if Majeal started her own ST series, what would happen?

[Chris OFarrell]

There is however one little thing complicating the two seperate universe rule.

"Based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry"

That kinda says they want a direct link to Gene, and since Gene has the moral rights to ST, ENT can't over right anything from TOS or TNG.

Righto. We should also remember that the phrase "based on" inherently indicates subordinate status. The film "Black Hawk Down" is based on the actual Mogadishu raid, but it does not define that raid. In the event of any contradiction between the actual facts of that raid and the film, the film obviously loses.

Similarly, the phrase "Based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry" says to me that the new series is an adaptation of the original Star Trek, and clearly has no power to supersede its events. In the event of intractable contradictions, it loses.

You also have a problem in the crossover episodes to previous times. Like Trails and Tribbles (IMO one of the best DS9 episodes) which explicitly place them in the same universe....

[Tsyroc]

I suppose they could explain that one away with the multiple timeline thing.

[Alyeska]

FYI DS9 was not a B&B adventure. Berman might have had his name on it, but he wasn't really in charge of it and didn't really like it. DS9 was considered the bastard child of Star Trek because the idea was pitched by someone Gene didn't endorse (Gene endorsed Berman, thus VGR and ENT in Paramount were considered partially sanctioned by Gene). DS9 showed a darker part of Trek, and when the 7 years came up B&B were quite happy to see the show end. Ronald Moore and Ira Steven Behr where the two in charge of DS9 and they did their best to keep the B&B influence out of the series. Sadly the last episode was full of B&B stench because they wanted the series dead. Ronald Moore was in with the writers for Equinox PT-2 and he couldn't help bu comment how the writers were just cranking out technobabble as actual script and how no one payed attention to his ideas.

DS9 was made good by Rondal Moore and Ira Steven Behr, but even they couldn't fully keep B&Bs claws out of it totally.

[Vympel]

If B&B were never too enthused about DS9 it just goes to show their damn mindset. I get the impression that DS9 is many fan's favorite series because it IS so much 'darker' (by ST standards) than TNG and the others.

[Alyeska]

If B&B were never too enthused about DS9 it just goes to show their damn mindset. I get the impression that DS9 is many fan's favorite series because it IS so much 'darker' (by ST standards) than TNG and the others.

My thoughts exactly. DS9 was damned good because it was showing a different aspect to ST.

What I would have preferred is this.

Season 6 & 7, dominion war. Then go Season 8, dominion war, season 9 post war cardassia troubles.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

If B&B were never too enthused about DS9 it just goes to show their damn mindset. I get the impression that DS9 is many fan's favorite series because it IS so much 'darker' (by ST standards) than TNG and the others.

My thoughts exactly. DS9 was damned good because it was showing a different aspect to ST.

What I would have preferred is this.

Season 6 & 7, dominion war. Then go Season 8, dominion war, season 9 post war cardassia troubles.

All I would have prefered was a better ending.

"Please stop fighting"

"Um, okay!"

Typical Voyager type ending.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The problem I had with DS9 was that it was too boring at first to keep me interested. By the time they got around to the Dominion War story arch, I had already lost interest.

DS9 should have been about two seasons shorter, IMHO. God, the first season went nowhere.

[Cpt_Frank]

DS 9 was 'dark'? Hmm.... never realised it, but when compared with TNG it seems so indeed... when looking at other Sci-Fi or course...

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Oh shit, here it comes.

I think at this point they would all be considered equally canon. Since Gene Rodenberry left the control to B&B then they now have the moral rights.

Yes and no. They would have moral rights over DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. They would not have moral rights over TOS and TNG. So what we have is (drum roll please) ... two separate canon universes. The TOS/TNG Star Trek (Gene's Star Trek) and the DS9/Voyager/Enterprise Star Trek (B&B's Star Trek). Fans could either try to merge them into one (pretty much impossible after B&B's hack job), regard them as separate, or regard one as subordinate to the other.

There is however one little thing complicating the two seperate universe rule.

"Based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry"

That kinda says they want a direct link to Gene, and since Gene has the moral rights to ST, ENT can't over right anything from TOS or TNG.

Actually, ther is an implication that they are "seperate but parallel" in that the novelization for the Enterprise ep, "Shockwave" has this on the cover:

"Based on Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry
And Enterprise, created by Rick Berman & Brannon Braga" (emphasis mine.)

[Alyeska]

The problem I had with DS9 was that it was too boring at first to keep me interested. By the time they got around to the Dominion War story arch, I had already lost interest.

DS9 should have been about two seasons shorter, IMHO. God, the first season went nowhere.

I never really bothered watching the series untill the 3rd season, and didn't get into it untill the 4th season. Sure, the first 2 seasons weren't to good, but just completely ignore them and look at how good the last 5 seasons were.

[HemlockGrey]

TOS was, of course, the best, because it was a mishmash of a lot of creative ideas from a lot of creative people.

TNG was 'ok', because even though it was closer to Gene's sterile, boring image, he was forced to intergrate most of those creative ideas from TOS. Incidentally, I have never seen a TNG episode where a ship has fired it's weapons.

DS9 was good, in the middle, because it was an interesting story with an interesting cast of characters and it had some decent spacebattles. True, the story was hamfisted, but still decent, and yeah, Sisko was annoying, and yes, the first season was REALLY boring, but it was ok. The ending SUCKED, though, and I place the blame entirely on B&B.

VOY sucked, period. I begin to worry about the effect of B&B on Trek.

ENT comes alone. Interesting note: The first time I saw an ep, it was the one with the Ferengi, and it was halfway through the show, so I thought it was TNG and kept waiting for Picard to show up. I was extraordinarily baffled when he didn't. When I saw the show again, I didn't catch the 'Enterprise' title, and thought it was a documentary.

Gene endorsed Berman

And thus was Star Trek damned.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

And, as has been mentioned in another thread, there is evidence to support the idea that Enterprise isn't even technically Star Trek, but a mewling, retarded bastard child of it.

[Coyote]

From what I'd understood, from various fan sources, Gene originally wanted to make a Utopia without weapons or conflict, as someone noted earlier in the thread. And later, when there was talk of actual fighting in the Wrath of Khan movie, he was mortified at how his dream had been wrenched into a cowboy shoot-em-up. And when preparing for TNG, fans howled when they found that there would be absolutely NO connection to the past: there were no Vulcans, Klingons, or others planned, just whole new species that didn't exist before. The Ferengi were supposed to be the new Big Threat-- super-capitalists with no scruples at all. A sort of neo-Marxist sociological conflict was on the books, perhaps.

Remember the first two seasons were really "super-alien-of-the-week club" and we didn't see the Romulans until well into the series. Phasers were fired only so they could be used for some sort of scientific or non-military effect (ie, giving a giant alien a Caesarian section). I was shocked (in a good way) to see DS9, introducing such un-Trek like concepts as greed and money. But like Spanks said, it was too boring at first...

But now I wonder-- is using the phrase "BASED ON 'Star Trek' " keeping things in a seperate legal framework in some copyright lawyer's file cabinet? Or just a lazy man's way of avoiding canon?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Well, with regards to Enterprise, it's clearly established to be its own thing, though loosely tied in.

[Uraniun235]

in fact I think it was Paramount who forcefully inserted the Klingons there as a plot device for conflict.

No, the Klingons were Gene L. Coon's invention.

TNG was 'ok', because even though it was closer to Gene's sterile, boring image, he was forced to intergrate most of those creative ideas from TOS. Incidentally, I have never seen a TNG episode where a ship has fired it's weapons.

There are actually quite a few. Not a whole lot, but rather enough for a series not revolving around the battles of the valiant warship etc...

Ronald Moore was in with the writers for Equinox PT-2 and he couldn't help bu comment how the writers were just cranking out technobabble as actual script and how no one payed attention to his ideas.

When I was studying the show, getting ready to work on it, I was watching the episodes, and the technobabble was just enervating; it was just soul sapping. Vast chunks of scenes would go by, and I had no idea what was going on. I write this stuff; I live this stuff. I do know the difference between the shields and the deflectors, and the ODN conduits and plasma tubes. If I can’t tell what’s going on, I know the audience has no idea what’s going on.

...

Moore ran straight into these problems when he started working on VOYAGER. While writing notes on drafts of the scripts, as is customary, he was immediately being assaulted by techno-babble. He says, "When we were working on ‘Equinox Part II,’ I remember the pages coming in, and I would take notes, and send the notes back. There were just pages of it that I have no idea what’s going on. It was just page after page of, ‘Reroute the so-and-so, and engage the blankety-such, and the subspace dewop is doing its other thing.’ Just pages would go by, and in reading the script I’m flipping through it to find something of substance. It just fell on deaf ears. To be honest I haven’t even sat down and watched ‘Survival Instinct’ or ‘Barge of the Dead.’ I have them; I just haven’t watched them. They sent me the final drafts of the scripts, and I glanced through the script of ‘Survival Instinct,’ and I knew that they had done some extra shooting after the show was over. The show was a little short, so they had to add some pages, which was nothing unusual. But they added the pages with all this techno-crap in sickbay! I hate it so much. It is so off-putting. It doesn’t add anything to the drama."

If you want Moore's whole ranting about Voyager and Star Trek in general, feel free to email me at brain1701@yahoo.com; I'll send a text file with the whole interview in it.[/quote]