Star Trek acceleration figures

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 03:58pm

Does anyone else enjoy the way Darkling tries to pull unrelated issues into this, mostly regarding my personality and/or feelings toward the SE? Quite the adept little ad-hominem maneuvers you're pulling off there, Darkling. Not sure how it proves your claim that rationalization is completely impossible, but of course, that's not the purpose of the ad-hominem, is it?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-28 04:00pm

If the planetary defenses are on Mars then it still doesnt help you on the second example and it gives the Mars defences a range of 17 minutes of high impulse from end to end.

We also then get missing time for the cube to cover Saturn to Mars.

Again put some numbers on the table and then we can see more clearly what you are putting forward.

As for trek (and Wars - Stackpole anyone?) not being able to be analysed thats not what im saying at all just that you must take into account that what we are watching is a TV show and that sometimes things are going to clash.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-28 04:05pm

Illuminatus Primus: You insulted me first while agreeing with me (without understanding what you were doing) since I couldnt rebut what you sid (it was what I said) I simply returned (rather weak flames) myself.

Wong my point is that you cant treat the evidence we have as factual historical films thus saying thats your position isnt unrelated at all.

I also notice you have shifted position from "SF = stupid" to trying to explain the events by twisting the dialogue which is a step up (ths why im carrying on this back and forth).

Again hard figures please???

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-10-28 04:09pm

I realize. Point is, you'd expect sounds from point of view of historical recording, or the omniscient perspective for reasons stated. I didn't take sides. My point was the sounds are irrelevent and to be expected from either perspective.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 04:10pm

Let me get this straight: you changed the subject from Starfleet stupidity to your contention that certain events defy analysis (even introducing the tired "sounds in space" bit), and when I followed your subject change, you accuse me of changing the subject? Now I'm starting to get pissed off. Go back and read the fucking thread, asshole. Do not accuse others of what you did.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-28 04:18pm

And that's worse than your approach where you simply "discount" that which does not make sense under your bizarre system of assuming people are infallible?

Back there you mention that I simply discount the FTL impulse engine and say its odd therefore the value of the media has been in this thread since we started this trail.

I was also the last one to mention the stupidity (mentioning the sonic weapon) thus you dropped it - I give you a somewhat back handed compliment and you go spare I think I will stick to being mildly distainful (you give me more that enough reason to do so).

Again are you going to bring some calcs or do we just part ways?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 05:15pm

Yes, I criticized you for "discounting" an event rather than accepting that the crew is stupid. How does that excuse your subject change?

As for calcs, what the fuck calcs are required to show that a sonic weapon in space is stupid???? Do you refer to the vast number of decibels? I would have to watch the episode again to see, but I seem to recall some astronomically large figure, expressed in decibels. However, that does not help your point in any way; to describe it as a sonic weapon in the first place is already proof of the kind of rank stupidity you stubbornly deny.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-28 05:38pm

Sensor readings just shot off the scale.
Well, now...
they're taking pot shots at us.
Holding, Mr. DePaul?
Screens firm, sir.
Extremely powerful sonic vibrations.
Decibels-- 18 to the 12th power.
If those screens weren't up,
we'd be totally disrupted by now.
I guess that answers our questions, Mr. Scott.
They're not very friendly, are they?

Is what you are refering to (sorry there arent names attached but its the best I could find at short notice).

But actually I was refering to you figuring out the Borg (and ents) positions in system to account for impulse being sub c and the time figures(roughly).

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-28 05:48pm

Darth Wong wrote:I see you are now resorting to the "I can't win; Wong's an asshole and his followers will lynch me" sob story. Always focus on the man, eh Alyeska?

Eh?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 06:00pm

God damn it!!! I'm sincerely sorry about that, Alyeska. Pure brain fart. Obviously, I meant to say "Darkling". I don't know why that happened.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 06:04pm

As for Darkling's post:

What calcs are required in order to show that there are multiple ambiguities? You don't know the location of the cube except through inference from dialogue which has many possible interpretations. Planetary defenses might have been drones with interplanetary range. They might have been Mars' planetary defenses, not Jupiter's moons' planetary defenses. In short, there are too many unknowns to generate reliable calcs, unless you choose to arbitrarily pin down some of those unknowns for the purpose of making it appear impossible to rationalize. Stop treating dialogue ambiguities as if they aren't.

And as for the original subject, you failed to show that Starfleet crewers are not stupid, hence you failed to show that stupidity cannot be used as an explanation for outliers where aforementioned ambiguity exists.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-28 06:04pm

Dont I have an identity of my own?
I used to get mistaken for another particular poster aswell

I feel like nowhere man.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-28 06:14pm

Darth Wong wrote:God damn it!!! I'm sincerely sorry about that, Alyeska. Pure brain fart. Obviously, I meant to say "Darkling". I don't know why that happened.

I know I can be hard headed, but I hadn't realized I would be the first one to come to mind when your in a debate.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-28 06:16pm

You want me to prove they arent stupid - oh dear Wong you know thats wrong, you do realise what you are asking me to do there dont you? you do realise upon who the burden of proof lies? I will chalk this upto distraction rather than trying to pull a fast one.

We know that the Ent - D made it from Jupiter to earth in under 42 mins and the distance from Saturn (where they drop out of warp) to earth where they arrive is 1.3 Billion KM (approx) which is still over c (Wes chalks up 42 mins to intercept on the Borg but figures out they will reach earth before that (27 mins) now since they catch up with the Borg in earth orbit obviously they travel to the edge of the solar system (well to saturn at least) and then from saturn to earth inside of 27 mins but since the 42 mins still gives a greater than c number it doesnt really matter.

So please either take the numbers we have and show me how they fit or this discussion is pointless.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 06:46pm

Stop bullshitting, Darkling. I never asked you to prove they aren't stupid. You asked me to prove that they are, and I gave a list of examples, none of which you could address satisfactorily (the funniest was your attempt to draw a distinction between stupidity and bad judgement, although your attempt to evade Spock's sonic weapon dialogue by saying someone else BUILT the thing he called a sonic weapon was pretty funny too). Your outright sophistry grows tiresome; are you trying to emulate Darkstar now?

As for your figures, I said many posts ago that there are a number of possible explanations which do not produce the ludicrous conclusion that impulse drive is FTL (contradicted by, well, everything). For example, Wesley could have been an idiot, grossly fucked up the intercept time, and they decided they'd better risk a short in-system warp jump to catch up (I mentioned that very early on, but you dismissed it by restating your assumption that Wesley could not have been that stupid. I don't know how you can possibly conclude that "Wesley, an untrained boy, is stupid and incompetent" is a worse interpretation than "FTL impulse drive" or "the whole scene should be ignored". We know that they CAN use warp drive in-system if they need to, so the only "evidence" you have against it is your assumption that Wesley could not be that wrong. And in order to distract from this problem, you have led us all on this insane wild-goose-chase through various over-plowed fields such as "sounds in space".

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 06:46pm

Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:God damn it!!! I'm sincerely sorry about that, Alyeska. Pure brain fart. Obviously, I meant to say "Darkling". I don't know why that happened.
I know I can be hard headed, but I hadn't realized I would be the first one to come to mind when your in a debate.

Are you flirting with me?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-28 07:10pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:God damn it!!! I'm sincerely sorry about that, Alyeska. Pure brain fart. Obviously, I meant to say "Darkling". I don't know why that happened.
I know I can be hard headed, but I hadn't realized I would be the first one to come to mind when your in a debate.
Are you flirting with me?

No... I was merely joshing you over your mistake.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-28 07:15pm

No Wong everyone on the ship would have to have been stupid (well everyone on the bridge).

And as for the original subject, you failed to show that Starfleet crewers are not stupid

I dont have to show them to not be stupid and are you reading my posts THREE times I have corrected you that it was Scotty not spock - it doesnt matter but it is giving me the impression you arent reading my posts.

You proved possibly one example of stupidity this doesnt prove mass stupidity.

Bad judgement = Not wearing my seat belt.
Stupidity = Thinking my car can go at 300 mph.

Again put some figures forward - this is clocking in at 8 or 9 times now and just to finish up th necessary Darkstar comparision.

Im out unless you bring up something..... ANYTHING new.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 07:48pm

Who gives a fuck whether it's Scotty or Spock, since they're both crewmembers, so the criticism of their general level of scientific competence remains? Does the term "red-herring nitpick" mean anything to you? The fact that I did not dignify this pathetic nitpick with a response up till now was hardly proof that I was not reading your posts; it was my impatience with your bullshit.

As for your analogy, it's false and you know it. I already explained how this situation is more complicated than a simple speedometer or even rangefinder reading (at the very least, he must calculate time to intercept if it does not automatically pop up on his Microsoft GUI. There is plenty of room for incompetence, and you know it. So fine, bow out and pretend that you won if you like. Easier than owning up to all of the tricks and games you've been playing.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 07:56pm

Alyeska wrote:No ... I was merely joshing you over your mistake

OK, just checking

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-10-28 08:11pm

Wong you arent hearing me if a journey usually takes 8 hours and wes says they can make it in 30 mins you dont think anyone is going to twig.

Im out anyway claim victory as we both know you will although its obvious to anyone objective what happened here since yuo wouldnt put any info on the table after being asked in numbers in the double digit range.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-28 08:20pm

TheDarkling wrote:Wong you arent hearing me if a journey usually takes 8 hours and wes says they can make it in 30 mins you dont think anyone is going to twig.

Right. How is that any different from chalking up Geordi's terawatt warp core or Worf's 400 GW weapon to the same kind of stupidity? On my site, I grant the Feds megaton weapons and 30,000 TW warp cores because I'm willing to accept that stupidity; would you rather I didn't? People routinely nod their heads at astounding stupidity on the show; why didn't anyone "twig" when told of "sonic weapons" in space? Why didn't anyone "twig" when told of devices that could alter the laws of probability or a "fissure" in a mathematically defined radius? They're MORONS. Accept it.

Im out anyway claim victory as we both know you will although its obvious to anyone objective what happened here since yuo wouldnt put any info on the table after being asked in numbers in the double digit range.

Fuck off, asshole. I only claimed that there was more ambiguity in the situation than you would admit. Your demand that I provide hard calcs for ambiguity is the most idiotic kind of sophistry and you know it.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-10-28 09:00pm

I think you people take these debates WAY too seriously.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-10-28 09:09pm

Right. How is that any different from chalking up Geordi's terawatt warp core or Worf's 400 GW weapon to the same kind of stupidity? On my site, I grant the Feds megaton weapons and 30,000 TW warp cores because I'm willing to accept that stupidity; would you rather I didn't? People routinely nod their heads at astounding stupidity on the show; why didn't anyone "twig" when told of "sonic weapons" in space? Why didn't anyone "twig" when told of devices that could alter the laws of probability or a "fissure" in a mathematically defined radius? They're MORONS. Accept it.

Hehe....maybe its time to point out this page again:

http://h4h.com/louis/spock.html

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-28 10:36pm

Lord Poe wrote: Hehe....maybe its time to point out this page again:

http://h4h.com/louis/spock.html

You're too kind, Lord Poe. I would have just pointed out that the claim is in itself illogical. It uses its conclusion to support its premise.