Hyper-Optic Targeting System

[Batman]

Actually, www.ditl.org indeed has some good pictures.
For some arcane reason I can't link to relevant subsection (truth be told I had to switch to IE to even view the pictures, but that may be up to the way I configured Opera), so you'll have to go there yourself.
The relevant item is Fed ships/Constitutoin/images, which indeed seems to show the pre-refit E-nil to be light gray. I may have been confused by the toy model I had as a child (which was indeed bright white, but also had a photorp launcher so that was cool).
HOWEVER, those pictures ALSO show the refit E-nil to ALSO be light gray.
Furthermore, the Miranda section pictures show that one to ALSO be light gray.
While I still think the pre-refit E-nil was actually white so far I have no evidence to support that. Everything refit and forward, however, is apperently light grey.
I apologize for the overabundance of the word also in this post. I suck at writing.

[Aaron]

Actually, www.ditl.org indeed has some good pictures.
For some arcane reason I can't link to relevant subsection (truth be told I had to switch to IE to even view the pictures, but that may be up to the way I configured Opera), so you'll have to go there yourself.

I wasn't able to link to them at ditl.org either. But they do have good pics.

The relevant item is Fed ships/Constitutoin/images, which indeed seems to show the pre-refit E-nil to be light gray. I may have been confused by the toy model I had as a child (which was indeed bright white, but also had a photorp launcher so that was cool).
HOWEVER, those pictures ALSO show the refit E-nil to ALSO be light gray.
Furthermore, the Miranda section pictures show that one to ALSO be light gray.
While I still think the pre-refit E-nil was actually white so far I have no evidence to support that. Everything refit and forward, however, is apperently light grey.

Did that model come with a D-7 and a Romulan BOP too? If so I had the same kit and they were all white.

It would seem that my memory has failed me. The Refit Enterprise and the Reliant are clearly not white.

I apologize for the overabundance of the word also in this post. I suck at writing.

No problem, I'm no author either.

[Batman]

Did that model come with a D-7 and a Romulan BOP too? If so I had the same kit and they were all white.

It was a standalone model. There was a D-7, but it was blue-on-white (but ALSO had a photorp launcher ), and I can't remember wether or not they had a Warbird.

It would seem that my memory has failed me. The Refit Enterprise and the Reliant are clearly not white.

Well, it seems I was wrong about the pre-refit E-nil being white, so...

[Winston Blake]

Why does the flash have to be omnidirectional? Put a sufficiently powerful laser on the eye of the camera-Poof. One blind camera. An optical flare that you ignite behind, say, a fighter, isn't going to faze the pilot much (and could still be directional).

Aiming a laser at a small camera would not be an easy task at all. Also there would most likely be an array of cameras, so having one or two go blind wouldn't help much.

So I use a really bright searchlight or a non-omnidirectional flare. Camera(s) still 'jammed'.

So why wouldn't they use these to blind pilots looking out of their windows? At least as a machine a camera can be designed to instantly lower its sensitivity when exposed to light that's too bright. I'm thinking of night-vision goggles in RL. All the pilot can do is close his eyes screaming after he's already gone blind.

Remember: I already posted above that SW ships (fighters and capships) do use glorified cameras as their primary short-range combat sensors.

They're still jammable by SW tech.

Except in the movies their primary short-range combat sensors are Eyeball Mk 1.
How can you 'jam' a visual camera without being more effective against pilots' eyes? Sure have windows as a backup, but unless those windows or the rebel helmets have auto-darkening tech, the pilot gets screwed over. And if you go down that path you could use the same auto-darkening tech on the camera with better results. You could cover over the windows with armour until you need them, but that's not what we see.

It doesn't make sense. Chewbacca is a wookiee. Why am i talking about chewbacca now? It just doesn't make sense. And if it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

[Batman]

So I use a really bright searchlight or a non-omnidirectional flare. Camera(s) still 'jammed'.

So why wouldn't they use these to blind pilots looking out of their windows? At least as a machine a camera can be designed to instantly lower its sensitivity when exposed to light that's too bright. I'm thinking of night-vision goggles in RL.[/quote]
Which are capable of filtering out light spikes to the extent that they won't fry the sensors/ user's vision. they are nevertheless BLIND during this event.

All the pilot can do is close his eyes screaming after he's already gone blind.

By all means tell me where the fighter pilot is looking. You can't? Then I'm very much afraid that your only option is an omnidirectional event, which is going to blind EVERYBODY.

[Winston Blake]

So I use a really bright searchlight or a non-omnidirectional flare. Camera(s) still 'jammed'.

So why wouldn't they use these to blind pilots looking out of their windows? At least as a machine a camera can be designed to instantly lower its sensitivity when exposed to light that's too bright. I'm thinking of night-vision goggles in RL.

Which are capable of filtering out light spikes to the extent that they won't fry the sensors/ user's vision. they are nevertheless BLIND during this event.

A camera being blind for a split second is better than a pilot being blind for the rest of the battle, if not for life.

All the pilot can do is close his eyes screaming after he's already gone blind.

By all means tell me where the fighter pilot is looking. You can't? Then I'm very much afraid that your only option is an omnidirectional event, which is going to blind EVERYBODY.

It doesn't have to be 'pencil-thin beam' vs 'omnidirectional event'. How about a thin cone that bathes his entire cockpit in blinding light. He could be looking in the opposite direction and the reflected light could still blind him.

Also, if the pilot isn't looking at you, you can just shoot him. No need to jam his optical sensors. If he tries to attack you, blind him.

[Mad]

Except in the movies their primary short-range combat sensors are Eyeball Mk 1.
How can you 'jam' a visual camera without being more effective against pilots' eyes?

We don't know exactly. However, this is the effect that is observed, so we must accept that SW can jam/distort the reception of a technological camera while biological sensors appear to remain relatively unaffected. (The ANH novelization also suggested that the jamming affected engine performance... "flying through soup" and reducing maneuverability. Now, reducing the maximum safe speed because of sensor readings and actually reducing manuverability are two diferent things. How could jamming accomplish this? We don't know, but it's canon.) This is the concept of "Suspension of Disbelief," and you should know that the debators here are pretty big on it.

[Winston Blake]

Except in the movies their primary short-range combat sensors are Eyeball Mk 1.
How can you 'jam' a visual camera without being more effective against pilots' eyes?

We don't know exactly. However, this is the effect that is observed, so we must accept that SW can jam/distort the reception of a technological camera while biological sensors appear to remain relatively unaffected. (The ANH novelization also suggested that the jamming affected engine performance... "flying through soup" and reducing maneuverability. Now, reducing the maximum safe speed because of sensor readings and actually reducing manuverability are two diferent things. How could jamming accomplish this? We don't know, but it's canon.) This is the concept of "Suspension of Disbelief," and you should know that the debators here are pretty big on it.

Argh. OK, so it's just one of those things where you've gotta say 'That's just what it does, can't explain it'.

[brianeyci]

We don't know exactly. However, this is the effect that is observed, so we must accept that SW can jam/distort the reception of a technological camera while biological sensors appear to remain relatively unaffected. (The ANH novelization also suggested that the jamming affected engine performance... "flying through soup" and reducing maneuverability. Now, reducing the maximum safe speed because of sensor readings and actually reducing manuverability are two diferent things. How could jamming accomplish this? We don't know, but it's canon.) This is the concept of "Suspension of Disbelief," and you should know that the debators here are pretty big on it.

I wonder if this is why the Vong were effective against NR ships. Maybe the NR should develop biological sensors then -- with their technology it shouldn't be too hard to bioengineer a super-eye. Integrating the eye with an electronic system shouldn't be too hard either -- unless Wars can jam that. If so, then they could make a biological brain designed to aim and target their turbolasers. All within their technological capabilities.

Brian

[Mad]

I wonder if this is why the Vong were effective against NR ships.

I believe so. You'll notice that as the war against the Vong progressed, engagements began moving towards longer and longer ranges with velocities that were described as "near-light."

My theory about this is that the Vong sensors weren't as affected, so the standard jamming techniques used by the NR were much less effective. (From what I've heard, one novel had a mention of the NR using "new countermeasures" to combat the Vong.) The NR soon adapted to this, and decided to forgo the jamming that would be used for standard engagements. Since jamming affects both sides (Darth Vader's TIE was affected by the Death Star's jamming, as well), the extra clarity allowed the near-lightspeed attack runs to be performed since the sensors were more reliable.

Maybe the NR should develop biological sensors then -- with their technology it shouldn't be too hard to bioengineer a super-eye. Integrating the eye with an electronic system shouldn't be too hard either -- unless Wars can jam that. If so, then they could make a biological brain designed to aim and target their turbolasers. All within their technological capabilities.

Brian

I don't think so. A biological eye with vision good enough for combat sensors would be incredibly sensitive and easily damaged by enemy fire. It'd go blind very early into battles, while standard scopes can last longer.

Against the Vong, using standard sensors is fine because the Vong can't really jam them. Using biological eyes would mean the NR is using a buggy new technology for no gain when the current technology works just fine.

[brianeyci]

I don't think so. A biological eye with vision good enough for combat sensors would be incredibly sensitive and easily damaged by enemy fire. It'd go blind very early into battles, while standard scopes can last longer.

Well it would be incredibly sensitive, but you could immerse the biological eye in Bacta and it could heal really fast. The eye doesn't have to be exposed to space obviously -- it could be behind some sort of one-way dome so that enemy sensors couldn't detect where the eye was "looking". Enemy ships would just see a ship with many tiny domes, and they wouldn't be able to scan because the eye-ship would be jamming as well. So they would be in for a big surprise. The eyes could be connected to a central computer, which could take in all the information and turn/target the hundreds of tiny small turbolaser batteries that could hit fighters.

Besides, how long to Wars ships without shields last against 200GT turbolaser shots? Shields would protect the eyes from direct fire, and hiding the eyes would for awhile might make them think that you were using some sort of new scanning equipment rather than biological eyes. Once they figured it out though, they could fire a lot of bright flares to blind the eyes. But that's what the Bacta is for. They also should be able to engineer an eye to be tough enough not to be blinded by flares -- after all, we don't see them firing a lot of flares off to blind human eyes. If its the visors that protect human pilots from blinding flares, the biological combat sensors could have a visor in front of them too.

Against the Vong, using standard sensors is fine because the Vong can't really jam them. Using biological eyes would mean the NR is using a buggy new technology for no gain when the current technology works just fine.

True there would be bugs to work out. But eventually you would have a system that could shoot down enemy fighters with impunity, effective against conventional forces.

Brian

[Batman]

I don't think so. A biological eye with vision good enough for combat sensors would be incredibly sensitive and easily damaged by enemy fire. It'd go blind very early into battles, while standard scopes can last longer.

Well it would be incredibly sensitive, but you could immerse the biological eye in Bacta and it could heal really fast.

But until you do that it remains blind. What are the advantages over an electro-optical /optical system which can be protected against that?

The eye doesn't have to be exposed to space obviously -- it could be behind some sort of one-way dome so that enemy sensors couldn't detect where the eye was "looking". Enemy ships would just see a ship with many tiny domes, and they wouldn't be able to scan because the eye-ship would be jamming as well.

Why not replace them with cameras?

[brianeyci]

But until you do that it remains blind. What are the advantages over an electro-optical /optical system which can be protected against that?

Because like Mad said, Wars can jam electronic combat sensors, even protected ones.

Why not replace them with cameras?

Same as above.

Brian

[Batman]

But until you do that it remains blind. What are the advantages over an electro-optical /optical system which can be protected against that?

Because like Mad said, Wars can jam electronic combat sensors, even protected ones.

He never said a word about jamming all and every electronic senso including optical ones.
How do you 'jam' a camera into uselesness? If they can 'jam' its very functioning they can do so to every electronic system you attach to it (which they can't as we never see them do it, and it would render ion cannon useless).

[brianeyci]

How do you 'jam' a camera into uselesness? If they can 'jam' its very functioning they can do so to every electronic system you attach to it (which they can't as we never see them do it, and it would render ion cannon useless).

Mad gave the following quote,

A number of standardized sensors are used by ships across the galaxy. Electro-photo receptors, also known as EPRs, are short-range visual scanners that gather data provided by normal light, infrared, and ultraviolet telescopes; they are also the primary sensors used in targeting computers.

That's right, short-range combat sensors in Star Wars are glorified cameras. And yet they are jammed (quotes from the ANH novelization refering to all short- and long-range scopes being affected). Not really sure how, but we know that Wars has the technology to do so.

So Wars can jam cameras somehow, and not biological eyes. Doesn't matter if we don't know how, they can... like Mad said "suspension of disbelief".

Brian

[Batman]

I somehow missed that one. Okay, they apparently CAN jam them. I still wonder why them but not the rest of the ship's system but oh well...

[Mad]

I somehow missed that one. Okay, they apparently CAN jam them. I still wonder why them but not the rest of the ship's system but oh well...

Maneuverability was affected, as well:

"Also, their field generators will probably create a lot of distortion, especially in and around the trench. I figure that maneuverability in that sector will be less than point three."