The Federation will be able to defeat any Empire invasion.

[Lord Pounder]

holy huge posts Batman!

Time travel is a cop out a way to say We lose but make ourselves win anyway my going back in time. Time travel would only allow the Federation to play the Empire invades thing over and over again. How can they make it into a win? Even stealing weapons doesn't work. It makes no sense as a argument either.

Frankly Time Travel is not any kind of magic bullet. It is not even an easy way out. Go back in time and stealing a Star Destroyer will do them no good either. Unles you are suggesting them going back in time and destroying the Humans of the Empire when they are cavemen...but that is the ulimate cope out!

Turns the whole debate into Bill & Teds Excellent Adventure

[General Zod]

holy huge posts Batman!

Time travel is a cop out a way to say We lose but make ourselves win anyway my going back in time. Time travel would only allow the Federation to play the Empire invades thing over and over again. How can they make it into a win? Even stealing weapons doesn't work. It makes no sense as a argument either.

Frankly Time Travel is not any kind of magic bullet. It is not even an easy way out. Go back in time and stealing a Star Destroyer will do them no good either. Unles you are suggesting them going back in time and destroying the Humans of the Empire when they are cavemen...but that is the ulimate cope out!

it's basically like saying that jet li could kick jackie chan's ass in a martial arts fight, but jackie chan gets to bring a hidden gun with him and use that instead. does nothing to actually show who would win without using a deus ex machinae.

[SirNitram]

Hrm. This is more or less identical to shit that was defeated way back when I first came to ASVS. How pathetic.

Let's see...

Parallels and Future's End both prove that time travel creates timelines(Unless Alyeska would like to argue that the 29th Century Federation is so fucking stupid it doesn't know what it's talking about, of course.) in ST.

Of course, if one is really going to whine and throw a fit on the floor about this, one can simply note that time travel is perfectly possible with SW technology. Droid Comics show a hyperdrive malfunction shunting the ship backwards, and this is such an anticipated event that the computer is designed to know it's moved back.(One could invoke the red herring that the computer was off by how much it went back, but a baby was drooling on the controls, so errors will happen.) Hypernet News shows a hyperdrive driven ship moving forward. So....

Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you..

[Darth Servo]

And all the time and as many do-overs as they need.

You don't get any do-overs if your ship has been vaporized.

No, what you do is find an isolated planet in the federation and start up a colony-someplace that would not have any interferance in the current timeline.

All the while praying the Imperials don't find you because once they do, your planet goes 'boom'

That colony becomes self sustaining and has its own time travelers ready to go, just in case. They work on getting technology and rescources, ANYTHING they need, to beat the empire.

So you figure the people from one ship landing on some remote planet somewhere will be able to build and R&D enough to do a job the entire Feds could not? ROTFLMAO

1) Once the first time traveler leaves, the remaining 'colonists' have no ship. Your new colony has no ship yards, remember?
2) The only method available to starships for time travel is the slingshot effect which uses a LOT of fuel and puts a LOT of strain on the ship and is only good for a few centuries at most.
3) Starting a new colony, the first priority is food, water and shelter for the colonists. Not R&D or starship construction. You don't just wave a magic wand and generate a colony.

Given infinite time and the inifnite rescources that time provides, and as many do-overs as they require, how can they possibly fail?

Because you're ASSUMING they have infinite resources to work with. Even with time travel, the SHIPS making the trip are NOT indestructable nor do they have infinite fuel.

We are not talking about the 29'th century generation. We are talking about a group of 24'th century federation who loop back on themselves to pass on their progress.

And why will the 24th century time travelers be any better at it than the 29th century ones?

The FIRST thing any intelligent Federation captain who comes up with this plan would do is set up redundancies so that if he fails, he can try again. If I came up with it, surley they would.....

You'd be surprised at the number of things viewers come up with that never even occur to the people on the show.

It is ONE generation of people who pass their own work back to their pasts selves. It needs not be well organized, one ship could get the job done.

But they DON'T give it to themselves. They give it to their parallel universe doubles.

If *I* think this far ahead, SURLEY some federation captain who has his ship hiding after the Federation got raped has thought of it.

Again, you're overestimating the intelligence of Federation personnel. You're just insisting on making your assumptions facts because you need them to be considered 'fact' for your plan to even get off the ground.

redundancies is the most OBVIOUS thing you could do as your first course of action!

Redundancy is a totally alien concept to the Federation. We see that every time they show us how their ships are designed. They repeatedly demonstrate single point failures. If they won't use this common sense in designing theri ships, why will they suddenly come up with the idea elsewhere?

Re-read what you just wrote. You can not claim everything is out of character simply because you do not like it.

Nice strawman. We're not saying its out of character because we don't like it. We're saying it because they NEVER DO IT ON THE SHOW!!! And if people with 500 extra years of experience with time travel don't do it or have trouble with it, how will the incompetant fools of the 24th century accomplish it?

Picard and Janeway ignore the normal and temporal prime directive five times before they drink their morning coffee.

You exaggerate

They work on the problem for eighty years.... the empire coms. They go back in time and give it to their PAST SELVES.

In essence you generate research from no where. Can a starship crew with ZERO resources build up a colony to the point where they can even launch a new ship in 80 years? You think you can keep a ship in mothballs for 80 years and still have it working properly without repairs? How do you store the antimatter for that period of time.

Because they did not. The "worst case scenario" did not yet happen. The Federation was not destroyed, Earth did not fall. They would only go back after all conventional options were tried. They had things left to try... and they worked.

OK so under your idea, the Empire has already destroyed the Federation. How many ships do you think they'll have functional enough to pull of this Hail Mary plan of yours?

The Empire fleet or part of itis in orbit around a certain star at X date.... the time travelers know this. They develop a solar detonator, make the sun go nova. They send back a probe to detonate the sun.

What makes you think the Empire goes around parking next to stars for no reason?

there are ALOT of solutions heh.

Too bad for you none of them are canon.

As stated even if it is a different time line, it is possible to travel BETWEEN realities as shown dozens of times, usually not on purpose. They have the time to figure out how to do it.

There is no evidence that the time traveler gets to pick his destination reality.

[Knife]

The Empire fleet or part of itis in orbit around a certain star at X date.... the time travelers know this. They develop a solar detonator, make the sun go nova. They send back a probe to detonate the sun. This is just one example of how tech and knowledge of the past will help you win with time travel. Use your imagination there are ALOT of solutions heh.

1. learn how to use the quote button. Your posts are hard to read and determin where you start talking and where others are quoted.

2. Your a retard.

If one ship goes back in time to 'set up a R&D colony' it'll need huge amounts of equipment and resources you don't usually find on a starship. They'd have to start from scratch and even then, if you go back 100 years and even if you do have the equipment and material, you're not going to come close to matching the tech of the Empire.

You'd need 1000's of years, in which you'd need even more *an insane level* of resources and material and hellashish focus, since if you go back even 1000 years, you'd need some mechinism for your people to stay focused on defeating the coming Empire instead of just conquoring the ST galaxy with slightly better tech than everyone else.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Redundancy is a totally alien concept to the Federation. We see that every time they show us how their ships are designed. They repeatedly demonstrate single point failures. If they won't use this common sense in designing theri ships, why will they suddenly come up with the idea elsewhere?

Is it?

In order to bring the system up to
Starfleet code, I had to pull out
the couplings to make room for a
secondary backup.

GILORA
Starfleet code requires a second
backup?

O'Brien reacts to her tone.

O'BRIEN
(patiently)
In case the first backup fails.

GILORA
What are the chances that a primary
system and its backup would both
fail at the same time?

O'BRIEN
It's not likely, but in a crunch, I
wouldn't want to be caught without a
second backup.

[Mr Bean]

Redundancy is a totally alien concept to the Federation. We see that every time they show us how their ships are designed. They repeatedly demonstrate single point failures. If they won't use this common sense in designing theri ships, why will they suddenly come up with the idea elsewhere?

Is it?

In order to bring the system up to
Starfleet code, I had to pull out
the couplings to make room for a
secondary backup.

GILORA
Starfleet code requires a second
backup?

O'Brien reacts to her tone.

O'BRIEN
(patiently)
In case the first backup fails.

GILORA
What are the chances that a primary
system and its backup would both
fail at the same time?

O'BRIEN
It's not likely, but in a crunch, I
wouldn't want to be caught without a
second backup.

Wooo one backup, now find me a backup system for the Holo suit or the main computer

[Gustav32Vasa]

Wooo one backup, now find me a backup system for the Holo suit or the main computer

Captain -- we'd like permission
to take the Engineering computer
off-line for a couple of hours.
(beat)
We've been working on a new
interface that'll allow Data to
act as an emergency back-up in
case of a ship-wide systems
failure.

[Rogue 9]

Wooo one backup, now find me a backup system for the Holo suit or the main computer

Captain -- we'd like permission
to take the Engineering computer
off-line for a couple of hours.
(beat)
We've been working on a new
interface that'll allow Data to
act as an emergency back-up in
case of a ship-wide systems
failure.

Data is hardly standard equipment on Starfleet ships, and the fact that they needed to use them at all indicates that there is no standard backup.

[Robert Walper]

The whole concept is just silly. By the OP logic, the Federation utlizing time travel could deliver a crippling or fatal blow to a enemy vastly superior in technology, power, numbers, speed, etc. That'd be like the Federation taking out the Borg Collective with a time line change...

Wait a minute...didn't that happen?

[Gustav32Vasa]

Wooo one backup, now find me a backup system for the Holo suit or the main computer

INT. ENGINEERING - AT COMPUTER (OPTICAL)

This computer is separate from the main computer and
is used for this type of emergency only.

[DarkSilver]

I'm with the Borg Freak on this one

Though Time Travel is the biggest cop-out and by Standard (Normal TNG/DS9/Voyager) Terms tricky at best (Unless you use the Orb of Time on Bajor.......which requires a near omnipotent non-linear race of beings to decide to let you use it) , it seems by the time Voyager would have originally made it home (another 60-70 years from the last voyager episode if I remember correctly), the Federation had gotten thier hands in use of Time Travel, just the Temporal Prime Directive kept getting in the way (Janeway uses Klingons to get aorund it).

But, the Janeway/Borg incident was a *FUTURE* Federation with more advanced Weaponry sending back Technology to the past to use. Not sending tech into the past, for futher development/building, sending that back into the past, etc etc.

Overall, Lach, all your arguements are not proven by ST Canon (I'm a huge ST Nut, Fed/Borg Fan; and saying that Time Travel won't play a true factor in this at all). Besides, your betting that the Temporal Prime Directive woulnd't fall into place with this sudden "future tech" showing up prior to any Imperial Invasion.

In the End, Star Trek and Star Wars are just to disimilar for simply say there is one magick bullet for ST to win. Star Wars has had 25,000 years to test, build up and work with thier Tech (It is a Technologically Stagnant Galaxy after all), while Star Trek has had only a couple hundred years for the Federation.

Besides, the only time Time Manipulation has been used outright in war, was the ST:Armada Games, with the Temporal Research Institutes, which created a area of "frozen" space for all ships other than Fed Ships (alteration to thier Quantum Signiture or something of the like, can't remember off hand).

[Gustav32Vasa]

Wooo one backup, now find me a backup system for the Holo suit or the main computer

Captain -- we'd like permission
to take the Engineering computer
off-line for a couple of hours.
(beat)
We've been working on a new
interface that'll allow Data to
act as an emergency back-up in
case of a ship-wide systems
failure.

Data is hardly standard equipment on Starfleet ships, and the fact that they needed to use them at all indicates that there is no standard backup.

The subject was that the Federation was too stupid to think about backups. I tried to prove that they did in fact think about it and in some cases use it. Hopefully I have convinced some that its true.

[Lach]

"You don't get any do-overs if your ship has been vaporized."

You do if the FIRST thing you do is enlist another ships help and convince them to go back in time and warn you before you try something if you fail.



"All the while praying the Imperials don't find you because once they do, your planet goes 'boom'"

As soon as the empire arrives, you go back to your past selves right after you began your work to pass it along, so your past selves continue it. It would be insane to try to continue the research while the empire is in your galaxy if it is possible not to.



"So you figure the people from one ship landing on some remote planet somewhere will be able to build and R&D enough to do a job the entire Feds could not? ROTFLMAO"

Yes I do. Have you seen the resource capabilities on a larger class ship? They are not super star destroyers but they are far from tiny. A large part of the research can be done soley on computers, remember the Federation has computers which can simulate reality FAR better then we do. You do not need to physically test every chemical reaction or device if a computer simulation can do it. A large chunk of all research in the startrek series takes place soley in simulation. This cuts down ENORMEOUSLY on the material requirments.



"1) Once the first time traveler leaves, the remaining 'colonists' have no ship. Your new colony has no ship yards, remember?"

Correct.... unless they got more, and while that is likley it is not a guarantee. But who says the ship leaves? If the plan is say.... develop a borg style transportation system and solar detonators... they would not need to-they just need a ton of time to work it out.



"2) The only method available to starships for time travel is the slingshot effect which uses a LOT of fuel and puts a LOT of strain on the ship and is only good for a few centuries at most."

Where are you getting that number from? Even if it is only one century, they can repeat that century as many times as they want, passing the work back to their past selves.



"3) Starting a new colony, the first priority is food, water and shelter for the colonists. Not R&D or starship construction. You don't just wave a magic wand and generate a colony."

Voyager seemed to get by converting alot of its cargo bays to hydroponic farms.... they needed to get food pickups occasionally. Not EVERYONE is suited to do research. The rest can grow food or whatever they need to, to survive. I think it is safe to say that the Federation has farming techniques FAR advanced beyond our own.



"Because you're ASSUMING they have infinite resources to work with. Even with time travel, the SHIPS making the trip are NOT indestructable nor do they have infinite fuel."

Recruit other ships to your cause in the time before the empire comes. I fail to see how that is viable. They have all the fuel they need. After the generation of work ends, they go back in time to pass off the work. The PAST version of their ship exists on the colony. They have all the fuel they need. This also brings an interesting thing I had no thought of... what the hell is the ship that goes back to their past selves going to do, just die afterwards? They'd land on the colony and likley join it.... this will be a continuing source of supplies. This sounds like a paradox but is not, remember each time travel makes another universe.



"And why will the 24th century time travelers be any better at it than the 29th century ones?"

Who said they were? I did not. Someone kept thinking I was reffering to the 29'th centuring helping, they are not. I was clarafying.



"You'd be surprised at the number of things viewers come up with that never even occur to the people on the show."

It is something pretty basic. You'll proboably think a bit when your entire galaxy is on the line. It is rediculous to assume they could not come up with this. They would realize it would be impossible to defeat the empire conventionally because... as everyone points out, the federation would be destroyed in weeks. They would get to a thinkin.



"But they DON'T give it to themselves. They give it to their parallel universe doubles."

I'm tired of repeating myself, read my other posts in this thread. They have travelled to parallel realities by accident before. They can devlop the technology with all the time they need.



"Again, you're overestimating the intelligence of Federation personnel. You're just insisting on making your assumptions facts because you need them to be considered 'fact' for your plan to even get off the ground"

I am overestimating the intelligence of a space faring civilation 300 years in the future? You have to make assumptions, for variables or else ALL arguments about any match up is moot. How do we KNOW a super star destroyer will not miss the enterprise EVERY time and the enterprise will get off a perfect shot every time destroying them? We have to assume the most likley case. This is a two way street. If we can not assume the Federation personell can come up with some pretty simple and VERY obvious ideas then we can not assume the Empire is not magically defeated by the Federation in a series of cataclysmically bad luck.



"Redundancy is a totally alien concept to the Federation. We see that every time they show us how their ships are designed. They repeatedly demonstrate single point failures. If they won't use this common sense in designing theri ships, why will they suddenly come up with the idea elsewhere?"

What do you mean their ships do not have redundancy? The freakin enterprise splits up into two smaller ships, completley different life support and transportation systems! I think a ship that splits into TWO OTHER ships in a disaster scenario is pretty freakin redundant!
The Federation has managed to defeat every enemy they have encountered no matter how superior that enemy is. You are severley misunderestimating their inventivness.




"Nice strawman. We're not saying its out of character because we don't like it. We're saying it because they NEVER DO IT ON THE SHOW!!! And if people with 500 extra years of experience with time travel don't do it or have trouble with it, how will the incompetant fools of the 24th century accomplish it?"

You mean how Janeway did it, on purpose? Or how Picard did? Or how they did on purposein DS9? Or half the star wars movies? Kirk? EVERY series of star trek has succeded in intentionally time traveling. Spock figured it out a century earlier and they all immitated him easily enough...

Where is your evidence the 29'th centuring people are having trouble with it?



"You exaggerate"

Picard and Janeway have both used timetravel a dozen times.




"In essence you generate research from no where. Can a starship crew with ZERO resources build up a colony to the point where they can even launch a new ship in 80 years?"

Who says they need to launch a ship? Who says they only have 80 years? The focus would be research. They have all the resources they need.... they would have continual resupply every so often from their future selves sending back the ship. The metal from the ship would be invaluable. If the ship itself left little, the reactor would be almost fully fueled and able to provide the energy for the colony... MOST of the research does not required hard materials. Those not suited for research can farm.



"You think you can keep a ship in mothballs for 80 years and still have it working properly without repairs?"

If you properly mothball it? Why not?



"How do you store the antimatter for that period of time."

We can store anti matter ourselves.... you suspend it in an electromagnetic field between two magnets. The energy requirments to maintain it are not particularly large. I have personally seen the syste, they do it at Stony Brook National Laboratories on Long Island. If *WE* know how to store anti matter and it does not have serious energy drain I hardly think the Federation will have any sort of trouble.



"OK so under your idea, the Empire has already destroyed the Federation. How many ships do you think they'll have functional enough to pull of this Hail Mary plan of yours?"

ANY of them capable of reaching warp 7, actually. Lots. When it quickly becomes apparently they simply CANNOT defeat the empire(and we can all agree that becomes apparent VERY quickly) running the hell away and trying to establish new colonies would be the first priority. The Wormhole is still open and this is RIGHT before the actual war, they may get sancutary or material help from the dominion if they can convince them of the threat-though this is only a possibility and can not be depended on.



"What makes you think the Empire goes around parking next to stars for no reason?"

It was only an example. If you know when and where the enemy will be and have all the time you need to develop a weapon specialized to that situation....



"Too bad for you none of them are canon."

If something has not been done in star trek before, it is not possible for it to happen? You are confusing "canon" with "logic". If Warf never ate a ham sandwich on screen and a situation existed where strangley enough, if Warf does not eat a ham sandwhich Q will destroy the enterprise, I suppose it would be impossible to assume Warf eats the sandwhich... sucks for the enterprise. You are trying to hide under the flag of "canon" when it simply does NOT apply. How do we know how the trade federation would react to the borg? We can never know! Afterall they never fought in the canon so we can not ASSUME they kick the borgs ass any more then we can assume they have a series of cataclysmic accident and loose to the borg!



I said:
"As stated even if it is a different time line, it is possible to travel BETWEEN realities as shown dozens of times, usually not on purpose. They have the time to figure out how to do it."
You said:
"There is no evidence that the time traveler gets to pick his destination reality."

They managed to get back to their own in every case. Given time they can figure it out.











"Wooo one backup, now find me a backup system for the Holo suit or the main computer"

Who says you need to use everything? EVERYTHING not vital to keeping the research up or allowing the ship travel back in time can be cannibalized. Thats alot of stuff that will not be used. Repairs DO exist and engineers seem to have an amazing almost McGyver ability to take a coffee machine and repair the warp drive with it.








"Data is hardly standard equipment on Starfleet ships, and the fact that they needed to use them at all indicates that there is no standard backup."

That does not mean there are not computer backups. The episode of Voyager where the central computer is stolen proves this... they manage to track down the thieves over the course of WEEKS without their main computers. If they could function without the main computer.... obviously they had a servicable backup.








"The whole concept is just silly. By the OP logic, the Federation utlizing time travel could deliver a crippling or fatal blow to a enemy vastly superior in technology, power, numbers, speed, etc. That'd be like the Federation taking out the Borg Collective with a time line change...

Wait a minute...didn't that happen? "

Yeah, it did








"But, the Janeway/Borg incident was a *FUTURE* Federation with more advanced Weaponry sending back Technology to the past to use. Not sending tech into the past, for futher development/building, sending that back into the past, etc etc."

Janeway worked in isolation with Voyager-that was their future SELVES that came up with the solution, not the 29'th century. Spock already discovered time travel and how to do it, and as Janeway revealed in I BELIEVE the third series, it is in the central computers for the Federation, but access is restricted... SHE figured it out. Voyager and her crew went back in time to save itself repetadly and in one of those scenarios Janeway was dead. The crew either hacked the computers or figured it out.



"Overall, Lach, all your arguements are not proven by ST Canon (I'm a huge ST Nut, Fed/Borg Fan; and saying that Time Travel won't play a true factor in this at all). Besides, your betting that the Temporal Prime Directive woulnd't fall into place with this sudden "future tech" showing up prior to any Imperial Invasion."

If the empire wins the 29'th century Federation will not exist in THAT timeline(their temporal shields only work in THEIR universe) and thus there will be no one to stop them. The people who are working before the invasion will be working in isolation. The risk of the federation interfering and stopping them. I would bet a significant portion of the federation would NOT support this "grand plan", too risky to contact em unless absolutley neccesary.



"In the End, Star Trek and Star Wars are just to disimilar for simply say there is one magick bullet for ST to win. Star Wars has had 25,000 years to test, build up and work with thier Tech (It is a Technologically Stagnant Galaxy after all), while Star Trek has had only a couple hundred years for the Federation. "

Which is why everyone agrees the Empire will utterly tromp the Federation in a conventional war.



"Besides, the only time Time Manipulation has been used outright in war, was the ST:Armada Games, with the Temporal Research Institutes, which created a area of "frozen" space for all ships other than Fed Ships (alteration to thier Quantum Signiture or something of the like, can't remember off hand)."

This is another time we have to make a basic assumption. Will federation captains take initiative to use very complicated time travel schemes to save the federation?

[Ghost Rider]

Ultimately...it's up to you to show the Burden of Proof that Starfleet uses this supposed ultimate weapon to win wars.

So far all you've been saying is that this is your magic bullet but haven't provide the needed proof to back your assertion.

[Knife]

What happens, in your senario, if in 20 years or so, no advances are made. Your theory demands that advances are made in the life time of the people, so you can go back in time to the begining of their research with the answers.

If nothing gets advanced in their life time *an acceptable probability with advanced research* then going back in time with nothing will result with nothing, but if they continue, then eventualy they'd die and nobody would be there to go back in time and restart it.

Your assuming that serious advancments would happen in regular incriments, when there really isn't any way of knowing when and how, if ever, such advancments would occur.

If you have different generations developing the tech, then you run the problem of delluting the focus of the project, and vastly increasing your need for more resources.

Ontop of everything else, if you discover something over the course of years, then go back and give yourself the info, there is a chance that you would not understand the underlying principles of the discovery since you did not undergo the work and trial and error that you did before to arrive at those advances.

The further along you get into your research, the worse the problem will be. One time you'll cross over from the physics and laws of the universe that you understood at the begining of the research and you're original or time base 0 guy will simply not understand the research.

[Darth Wong]

So Lach, by adopting this particular argument, you are already conceding that without your time-travel cop-out, the Federation would get its ass kicked into next Thursday by an Imperial sector fleet, right? I just want you to confirm that, so we are clear that your entire argument hangs by the thread of this time-travel argument before going any further.

[Howedar]

So we have a !significantly! smaller group with smaller weapons smaller ships and less production

capacity fighting an ancient space faring civilization who has FAR faster ships.

I think it's pretty clear.

[Lach]

Ultimately...it's up to you to show the Burden of Proof that Starfleet uses this supposed ultimate weapon to win wars.

So far all you've been saying is that this is your magic bullet but haven't provide the needed proof to back your assertion.

Actually it is more you deciding to ignore it. I've carefully outlined both the willingness and the ability of the federation to use time travel, you've decided to ignore it because if Warf never ate a ham sandwich on screen, it is impossible for him to EVER eat one.

What happens, in your senario, if in 20 years or so, no advances are made. Your theory demands that advances are made in the life time of the people, so you can go back in time to the begining of their research with the answers.

Tell them what did not work. They can keep working till they figure it out.

If nothing gets advanced in their life time *an acceptable probability with advanced research* then going back in time with nothing will result with nothing, but if they continue, then eventualy they'd die and nobody would be there to go back in time and restart it.

The previous version of the ship can keep going back. Obviously they spent their time on something that did not work. They can tell them what did NOT work and they can try something else.

Your assuming that serious advancments would happen in regular incriments, when there really isn't any way of knowing when and how, if ever, such advancments would occur.

Are you trying to claim that scientific knowledge will not progress given time and a conscious effort?

If you have different generations developing the tech, then you run the problem of delluting the focus of the project, and vastly increasing your need for more resources.

Each "hop" will require more time to explain how the latest version of work functions and that will EVENTUALLY become a problem but not for a long time-the solutions could possibly be found first. Have you ever done computing programing on a large program? You assign different parts of the whole to different people-if you hand them W X and Y parts and tell them to develop Z, they can possibly develop Z without seeing the whole picture. All they need to do is have the people who are working on W pass it to the X people, then the X people pass W and X to Y, the Y people devlop Y and pass on W X and Y to Z etc..... You do not need to understand how the whole plain works to say, develop the fuel system.

[quote="Knife]
Ontop of everything else, if you discover something over the course of years, then go back and give yourself the info, there is a chance that you would not understand the underlying principles of the discovery since you did not undergo the work and trial and error that you did before to arrive at those advances.
[/quote]

See above, you need not understand all principles involved. Even if they do not understand the principles involved, they can just keep trying over and over till they get it right. Time travel was discovered by accident then nailed down by Spock-how can we predict what they will not find entirley by accident in their research?

The further along you get into your research, the worse the problem will be. One time you'll cross over from the physics and laws of the universe that you understood at the begining of the research and you're original or time base 0 guy will simply not understand the research.

This entire problem COULD be solved by going even further back and having your initial research deal with time travel itself-so you can go further back set up a truly permanent colony and have more time to explain it all.

So Lach, by adopting this particular argument, you are already conceding that without your time-travel cop-out, the Federation would get its ass kicked into next Thursday by an Imperial sector fleet, right? I just want you to confirm that, so we are clear that your entire argument hangs by the thread of this time-travel argument before going any further.

Yes, I think that is fairly clear. The Federation CANNOCALY stands no chance, if every star trek book was cannon that would be different but it is not, so we must work with what we can. Fortunatley the Federation has shown both a willingness and an ability to use time travel.

[Eframepilot]

Hrm. This is more or less identical to shit that was defeated way back when I first came to ASVS. How pathetic.

Let's see...

Parallels and Future's End both prove that time travel creates timelines(Unless Alyeska would like to argue that the 29th Century Federation is so fucking stupid it doesn't know what it's talking about, of course.) in ST.

Nitpick: The 29th century Feds are all about controlling changes in the timeline, which would be utterly pointless if time travel just creates new timelines as believed here instead of writing over the old timeline. So the 29th century Feds do believe that time travel can be used as a weapon. Hence the entire concept of a Temporal Cold War, which by the dogma of this forum is totally pointless. So, in fact, it is the Star Wars side that must argue the 29th century Feds are so fucking stupid they don't know what they're talking about.

But, since I have debated this in the past with Darth Wong, who did take the position that YES, they ARE that fucking stupid, the point is entirely moot.

[Slartibartfast]

The subject was that the Federation was too stupid to think about backups. I tried to prove that they did in fact think about it and in some cases use it. Hopefully I have convinced some that its true.

It would be nice, you know, if these backups actually did anything when the main thing fails. But all the evidence points that Federation backups don't back up.

[DarkSilver]

"But, the Janeway/Borg incident was a *FUTURE* Federation with more advanced Weaponry sending back Technology to the past to use. Not sending tech into the past, for futher development/building, sending that back into the past, etc etc."

Janeway worked in isolation with Voyager-that was their future SELVES that came up with the solution, not the 29'th century. Spock already discovered time travel and how to do it, and as Janeway revealed in I BELIEVE the third series, it is in the central computers for the Federation, but access is restricted... SHE figured it out. Voyager and her crew went back in time to save itself repetadly and in one of those scenarios Janeway was dead. The crew either hacked the computers or figured it out.

I never stated that it was from the 29th century. Your assuming I'm speaking of the 29th Century Federation. My arguement still holds, even if it was just Janeway going back intime with the tech, It was from a FUTURE Federation, that the tech came from. the 25th Century, not the 29th, not the 24th.

As for the Temporal Prime Directive, that is in place with CURRENT Starfleet, why do you think they have a Department of Temporal Investigations? Why don't you think that the obviously silly (and let'sadmit it, they were silly) Ablative Armor Generators and those retarded (and yes, they are retarded!) Transphasic Torpedo's aren't being distributed out by the time of Nemesis?

Not only because they were stupid shot of the weekl devices, but because they are from the FUTURE! And Starfleet's Temporal Prime Directive (inplace ever since Federation began time travel) states they CANNOT take anything which would interfere with the "Preferred Timeline". Coming out with Transphasic Torpedo's right now, would ruin the Preferred Timeline.

Besides, Transphasic Torpedo's won't work on anything other than the Borg, they were a Anti-Borg developed weapon. Sorry to those who think Transphasics is the key to winning a Trek/Wars conflict.

[DarkSilver]

you know....

I just realiezed something....

I'm a frigging Trekkie backing up the Wars side of the arguement....

-grabs his romulan disruptor and goes off to a quiet corner for alone time-

[Rogue 9]

you know....

I just realiezed something....

I'm a frigging Trekkie backing up the Wars side of the arguement....

Welcome to Alyeska's world. You can still be a Trek fan while acknowledging that the Federation would lose to the Empire. The two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive.

[Knife]

Tell them what did not work. They can keep working till they figure it out.

Thats retarded. You work for years and can't find any new shit, then some one goes back and tells you you didn't find shit, but 'Keep working on it'.

The previous version of the ship can keep going back. Obviously they spent their time on something that did not work. They can tell them what did NOT work and they can try something else.

"Your attempts at higher energy yields failed. Try something else."

Again, research and development is based off of trial and error. Each step of the process yield valuable insight to what it is your going for and perhaps stuff you weren't even looking for.

Are you trying to claim that scientific knowledge will not progress given time and a conscious effort?

I'm claiming that you can't set a schedual for massive research like your proposing. The Feds ain't the Japanesse trying to catch up of a few years of research and development on radar that the US had over them, your trying to catch up on 1000's of years of tech.

If you look at the ST universe, after a hundred years of advancement the Feds really haven't done anything super special. They've refined their exsisting tech. Warp still operates on the same prinicples, they never got transwarp (which would be an example of a new tech rather than just refining exisisting tech) to work, transporters still work the same, replicators just utilze exsisting tech.

In a hundred years, they've really haven't advanced much, and thats the whole empire. You think that if you stick a minute fraction of the people and resources of the Federation on a planet, that they'll come up with more and quicker?

Each "hop" will require more time to explain how the latest version of work functions and that will EVENTUALLY become a problem but not for a long time-the solutions could possibly be found first. Have you ever done computing programing on a large program? You assign different parts of the whole to different people-if you hand them W X and Y parts and tell them to develop Z, they can possibly develop Z without seeing the whole picture. All they need to do is have the people who are working on W pass it to the X people, then the X people pass W and X to Y, the Y people devlop Y and pass on W X and Y to Z etc..... You do not need to understand how the whole plain works to say, develop the fuel system.

You want to equate developing hyperdrive and hypermatter equipment or power producing equipment that eclipses what the Feds already know to a team of programers working on a project?

How the hell do you expect an engineer to design an engine for hypermatter if the physist didn't explain or is unable to explain how it functions. Hell, hows the physist supposed to understand the underlying physics of hypermatter when someone just appeared and dropped a data pad in his lap. Your analogy is seriously flawed.

See above, you need not understand all principles involved. Even if they do not understand the principles involved, they can just keep trying over and over till they get it right. Time travel was discovered by accident then nailed down by Spock-how can we predict what they will not find entirley by accident in their research?

This entire problem COULD be solved by going even further back and having your initial research deal with time travel itself-so you can go further back set up a truly permanent colony and have more time to explain it all.

And when you get to the point that it takes 20 damn years to explain it all so that they understand? Then you have to go back in time again, because the dudes will start dying and then you'll loose the info.

Again, we're not talking that they need to develope a better Warp drive or increase their weapons by 200%. We're talking of increasing their tech by serious orders of magnitude, creating the materials to use the tech, and then having the resourse to manufacture and construct the tech.

Even if your crackpot theory works (and it won't) what do you think will happen? Some redshirt will waltz into Star Fleet Command with plans and diagrams to build shit that they have no way of building? Or are you going to send a whole manufacturing plant back in time to retool and start making the pieces to make the parts to create the stuff that can actually start making your advanced tech.

After that, are you going to send your ship yards back in time, so they have the time to design, build, and test, not to mention train personell, to use the tech?

Then how many of these manufacturing plants and ship yards are you going to send back in time so they have time to build thousands of starships to defeat the Empire?

Its not a magic bullet.