Possible Federation defense strategy

[Vohu Manah]

But You still have no EVIDENCE that turbolaser will work. Have You? No.

I wrote to show, that saying that nomething wont work because it's from 'other side' (Trek phase cloak against Wars shields) can work in both directions - (Wars weapon agains Trek shields).
And that using such statements as a 'prove' or 'fact' dont say to well about writer.

And I think I've write the part about 'fun' in such statement?

I know it has been covered, but I'd like to add my 2 cents to the conversation.

No one needs to prove anything. In a [insert sci-fi/fantasy galaxy here] VS [insert sci-fi/fantasy galaxy here] discussion, you take a "leap of faith" and assume that the weapons of the two (or more) sides will work as designed. This is only fair. The exception to this is if canon sources from the targeted series explicitly states that said weapon type won't work.

Therefore, in a Star Wars VS Star Trek debate, it is assumed that Star Wars turbolasers will effect Star Trek ships, and vice-versa, at established power levels.

[Batman]

Oh what the hell-everybody knows I'm a vindictive bastard.

But You still have no EVIDENCE that turbolaser will work. Have You? No.
I wrote to show, that saying that something wont work because it's from 'other side' (Trek phase cloak against Wars shields) can work in both directions - (Wars weapon agains Trek shields).

Too bad I never claimed that. Wars shields are immeasurably more powerful then Trek ones (even if there were evidence for phased persons to penetrate it, which there apparently isn't), so unless there's evidence that phase cloaks can penetrate any shield regardless of power assuming they can penetrate Wars shields are bullshit.
Furthermore, since there is no evidence of phased objects penetrating matter denser than rock/ship's internal partitions there is no reason to assume it can pass Wars armor.

And that using such statements as a 'prove' or 'fact' dont say to well about writer.

Too bad I never claimed that was because they were from another universe.

[Kruk]

You have. Read what You wrote. You have not written, that they are not able to pass through shields (they are), but Wars shields.

But asaid of it - if anyone want to use "The Next Phase" as an example of phasecloak (why, I still dont understood), then sure, here You are.

Shields - they have passed shields. The best example is that romulan - to look at the E-D from outside, he has to pass through structural integrity fields.
Sticking his head into equipment also means to interact with energy. Not to mention passing through the walls and all EPS there.
So the person when 'phased out' is able to 'ignore' energy in many forms. From subspace shielding to electricity and high-energy plasma.
So that is a fact, that phase-cloaked persons are not interacting with energy.

Next, and most important thing is, that the only (!!) episode with active phasecloak was the Pegasus. Phasecloaked ship is not the same as person out of phase by transporter accident. So please stop to explain phasecloak possibilities by saying Geordi have not done this or that so it is not possible.

And for the phase-cloak - it was able to phase energy and shields, so the assumptoin that phased matter/energy wont interact with energy/particle shields is not as stupid as anyone think. Also Riker said (as I posted above) about matter/energy phasing rate - there is no onscreen evidence contradicting this statement - so the ship can bypass the energy.

[Shroom Man 777]

He never said they wouldn't work because they came from another universe. He meant that the Trek phase cloak couldn't pass through Wars shields, not because they are from another universe but because Wars shields are WAY STRONGER than Trek shields.

Simple enough for you?

Prove that they can work on Wars shields/armoring.

Basically means that:

Prove that they can work on way more powerful and uber and big-dicked shields/armoring.

Capiche? Understand? Comprende?

[Batman]

*Sigh*
Thanks for trying, Shroom. I'm afraid you can't argue against willful ignorance.

You have. Read what You wrote. You have not written, that they are not able to pass through shields (they are), but Wars shields.

Because those are immeasurably stronger than Trek ones.

But asaid of it - if anyone want to use "The Next Phase" as an example of phasecloak (why, I still dont understood), then sure, here You are.

That would be ANTIcarrot mixing and matching the two incidents. I agree that 'The Next Phase' ought not to be used as an example.

Shields - they have passed shields. The best example is that romulan - to look at the E-D from outside, he has to pass through structural integrity fields.

SIF does not equal shields, assuming that it was even on at the time (which DOES seem to be the default state). Shields are INTENDED to stop matter/energy. The SIF is NOT. Neither is it comparable to Wars shields thanks to the absurd power differential.

Sticking his head into equipment also means to interact with energy. Not to mention passing through the walls and all EPS there.

Which means he doesn't interact with energy regardless of the intensity how exactly?

So the person when 'phased out' is able to 'ignore' energy in many forms. From subspace shielding to electricity and high-energy plasma.

Within the power range as persent on Enterpise, nothing more.
Extrapolation to infinity.

So that is a fact, that phase-cloaked persons are not interacting with energy.

Nope. Does apparently not interact with energy as present on Enterprise. Numbers, please. Presence of EPS relays in the breached walls. Power of said. Presence and power of electrical conduits breached.
See above.

Next, and most important thing is, that the only (!!) episode with active phasecloak was the Pegasus. Phasecloaked ship is not the same as person out of phase by transporter accident. So please stop to explain phasecloak possibilities by saying Geordi have not done this or that so it is not possible.

Which throws all your wall-breaching incidents right out the airlock...

And for the phase-cloak - it was able to phase energy and shields, so the assumptoin that phased matter/energy wont interact with energy/particle shields is not as stupid as anyone think.

Extrapolation to infinity again.

Also Riker said (as I posted above) about matter/energy phasing rate - there is no onscreen evidence contradicting this statement - so the ship can bypass the energy.

Proof that they can very the phasing rate by any arbitrary amount, and that by doing so they can phase through absolutely everything.
All the evidence you have is YOUR INTERPRETATION of a STATEMENT by a Starfleet character. All we ever SEE the ship phase trough is rock.

[brianeyci]

Shields are INTENDED to stop matter/energy. The SIF is NOT.

Nitpick. The SIF is supposed to hold matter together. Feds seem to use it as a kind of mortar for bricks.

ODO
This is the fourth theft of
equipment from Upper Pylon Three
this month.

KIRA
I don't know how they keep doing
it. We've changed the security
protocols up there three times.

ODO
It's not the security arrangements
that are at fault, it's our friend
the chief of operations.

KIRA
Miles? What'd he do?

ODO
It's what he's not doing. He
still hasn't finished upgrading
the structural integrity field on
Upper Pylon Three, so half the
bulkheads are torn open. A child
could find a way into those cargo
bays.

From that, either SIF is forcefields, or SIF holds the bulkheads together to keep them from breaking apart aka mortar for bricks. Lol!!!!!!!

Oh, and ships should have some sort of shields on all the time. If they don't, microscopic particles can hit the hull, and since there's nothing in space to slow them down, an explosion a billion years ago could be launching small microscopic partciles in all directions with the same KE as the original explosion! In ST, at least for GCS, this is navigational deflector array, and it can stop particles.

Brian

[Lord Revan]

*snip*

but are those shields anywere near to the power of a typical ST combat shield (or heaven forbid to the power of typical SW combat shield), plus microscopoic particles have very little KE (the sum of particles KE can't exeed the energy of the orginal explotion, so a single microscopic particle has a very small fraction of the total energy of the explotion.)

[brianeyci]

but are those shields anywere near to the power of a typical ST combat shield

Well no. But the thing is, we have seen ships fly around battles with no shields up and not have their hulls torn apart by nearby explosions. Doesn't necessarily have to be microscopic particles -- large chunks could fly at the hull in the middle of battle given the chaos. Unless there is some sort of shields up to deflect particles separate from the normal defense shields (since we have seen ships with shields down fly in close proximity to large explosions aka Defiant), ships shouldn't be able to fly in close proximity to explosions and survive. This may be the SIF, or the navigational deflector shields, etc. Even microscopic holes are deadly in space.

Brian

[Lord Revan]

but are those shields anywere near to the power of a typical ST combat shield

Well no. But the thing is, we have seen ships fly around battles with no shields up and not have their hulls torn apart by nearby explosions. Doesn't necessarily have to be microscopic particles -- large chunks could fly at the hull in the middle of battle given the chaos. Unless there is some sort of shields up to deflect particles separate from the normal defense shields (since we have seen ships with shields down fly in close proximity to large explosions aka Defiant), ships shouldn't be able to fly in close proximity to explosions and survive. This may be the SIF, or the navigational deflector shields, etc. Even microscopic holes are deadly in space.

Brian

How do you know that the ships didn't use hullhuging shields (like TOS ships ans E-E in Nemesis.), since (at least in movies) TOS shields have the same visual affect as SW shields (explotion,but little to none damage to the ship)

[Questor]

How do you know that the ships didn't use hullhuging shields (like TOS ships ans E-E in Nemesis.), since (at least in movies) TOS shields have the same visual affect as SW shields (explotion,but little to none damage to the ship)

Hull-Huggers are also present in late DS9, especially the large battle scenes.

[brianeyci]

How do you know that the ships didn't use hullhuging shields (like TOS ships ans E-E in Nemesis.), since (at least in movies) TOS shields have the same visual affect as SW shields (explotion,but little to none damage to the ship)

I'm was thinking of the episode where the Defiant is in the alternate universe and is doing a Death Star Trench run against a super-Nergh'Var. Explosions go off all around the Defiant, and a few may have even engulfed the Defiant. Nothing happens though, no microscopic tears and no hull breaches. I thought the Defiant's shields were down, but Smiley says their shields are at 25%.

Guess I was wrong. I could probably dig though and find an instance with the shields definitely down and a close range explosion doing nothing.

Brian

[brianeyci]

35 INT. DEFIANT - BRIDGE

As before.

DAX
That's one down.

SISKO
Can you shake the other three?

DAX
I'm trying.

BASHIR
We've lost aft shields. Forward
shields are down to twenty percent.

<snip>

We see the Jem'Hadar ships bearing down on the Defiant,
when suddenly, all three EXPLODE.

Don't know how this plays out on screen, but it sounds like the Defiant is being tailed pretty close. When the three Jem'Hadar ships get destroyed, debris would have hit the Defiant with the same KE as the initial explosion. KE = 1/2m(v^2), so even if the particles were microscopic or weighted only 1 kg lets say, the velocity of the particles exploding would mean a lot of KE. For example, m = 1 kg v = 1000 m/s would be around 500000 joules of KE. At the least there would be a shitload of microscopic holes in the Defiant. That doesn't happen though, so there must be a way for ships to deflect particles independent of the defense shields.

Brian

[brianeyci]

I found where I first read about this here,

We would also like to point out that observing an exploding spacecraft in outerspace would be quite dangerous compared to observing one on Earth. The shrapnel and debris from exploding spacecraft would attain very high initial velocities just like they do on Earth. However, with no gravity to pull them to the ground and no air drag to slow them down, the debris would travel outward in straight lines virtually forever until they hit something.

Also, we know Trek hulls aren't immune to so much KE because of ramming. Jem'Hadar fighters ramming, Enterprise-E ramming Shinzon, all going at extremely slow speeds compared to particles from an explosion.

Brian

[Lord Revan]

Don't know how this plays out on screen, but it sounds like the Defiant is being tailed pretty close. When the three Jem'Hadar ships get destroyed, debris would have hit the Defiant with the same KE as the initial explosion. KE = 1/2m(v^2), so even if the particles were microscopic or weighted only 1 kg lets say, the velocity of the particles exploding would mean a lot of KE. For example, m = 1 kg v = 1000 m/s would be around 500000 joules of KE. At the least there would be a shitload of microscopic holes in the Defiant. That doesn't happen though, so there must be a way for ships to deflect particles independent of the defense shields.

Brian

first were did you get the speed/velocity of the particles and since when has microscopic particles had a mass of 1 kg , something like few grams at most would be more correct. And that's still only 500 kJ, it almost irrelevent since typical ST shield are in kT-MT range and a SW diplomatic cruiser has a shield rating of 6 TW and military transport 70 ZW (both AOTC:ICS). So uneless you can prove that a phased object is totally immune to shields and deflectors (and not just very weakly affect by them)

[Kruk]

I have not much time, and a frien of mine asked me to ask some questions here, so quick, if I missed something, sorry.

1) I've used The Next Phase only for those, who are using it for descripton of phase cloak, for me it's irrelevant.

2) It cannot be proved that the phased ship can fly through anything else than an ustable asteroid - we have seen phasecloaked ship only once. On the other side, it cannot be proved, that it can not phase through something more solid. And if someone will say now: Riker said that the matter/energy phasing rate should be enough to pass through this asteroid si they are not able to pass through anything more solid/dense - remember that it was old prototype, builded for 100 or more years old ship with percents of E-D volume. The phase rate for the Pegasus should be far greater than for E-D.

3) In the Next Phase wqhen Geordi spoke about romulan/klingon phasecloak she told somethng about hiding inside a planet:

GEORDI
It's supposed to change the
structure of matter so it can...
pass through "normal" matter and
energy... hey, wait a minute...

Geordi moves to take a new look at the console. Ro
follows him, curious about where this is leading.

GEORDI
A few years back, we got
intelligence reports that the
Klingons were working on combining
a phase inverter and a cloaking
device. In theory, they believed
that a... phased ship could hide
anywhere... even inside a planet.
And conventional weapons would
be useless against it.

Now there is a question are the shields normal energy (Trek are some sort of subspace bubble, but Wars?).

[Batman]

2) It cannot be proved that the phased ship can fly through anything else than an ustable asteroid - we have seen phasecloaked ship only once. On the other side, it cannot be proved, that it can not phase through something more solid.

The burden of proof is on the side claiming they CAN phase through something other than rock.

And if someone will say now: Riker said that the matter/energy phasing rate should be enough to pass through this asteroid si they are not able to pass through anything more solid/dense - remember that it was old prototype, builded for 100 or more years old ship with percents of E-D volume. The phase rate for the Pegasus should be far greater than for E-D.

Baseless assumption. Evidence that the phasing rate depends on the volume/mass of the ship, evidence that the could improve on it at all,
evidence that they can increase the 'phasing rate' arbitrarily far, evidence that that enables them through whatever they want?

3) In the Next Phase wqhen Geordi spoke about romulan/klingon phasecloak she told somethng about hiding inside a planet:
GEORDI
It's supposed to change the
structure of matter so it can...
pass through "normal" matter and
energy... hey, wait a minute...
Geordi moves to take a new look at the console. Ro
follows him, curious about where this is leading.
GEORDI
A few years back, we got
intelligence reports that the
Klingons were working on combining
a phase inverter and a cloaking

device. In theory, they believed
that a... phased ship could hide
anywhere... even inside a planet.
And conventional weapons would
be useless against it.

Inside a planet automatically means inside its metallic core since when?
They may be hiding only a kilometer or two below the surface, where the prevalent material would be guess what?
Oh, notice the phrase 'in theory' and 'they believed'-Geordiis speculating. That's not evidence.

Now there is a question are the shields normal energy (Trek are some sort of subspace bubble, but Wars?).

And that is relevant because of what again? Not that anybody ever phased through shields anyway.
And since when are Trek shields subspace bubbles (the total lack of content of that phrase notwithstanding)?

[brianeyci]

first were did you get the speed/velocity of the particles and since when has microscopic particles had a mass of 1 kg , something like few grams at most would be more correct.

I just made them up to illustrate how velocity is more important than mass in determining kinetic energy.

And that's still only 500 kJ, it almost irrelevent since typical ST shield are in kT-MT range and a SW diplomatic cruiser has a shield rating of 6 TW and military transport 70 ZW (both AOTC:ICS).

Okay. Before I start, I'll give the meatball versus truck analogy which helped me understand the difference between momentum and kinetic energy. What is more dangerous? A meatball that weighs 1 kg and goes at 1000 m/s, or a truck that weighs 1000 kg and goes at 1 m/s? Which one would you rather have hit you? Its intuitively the truck, but plug the numbers into the formula for KE. The velocity is the dominant term for the meatball, and the meatball has far more kinetic energy than the truck, although both have same momentum.

The Defiant was near the three Jem'Hadar bug fighters. Not that it matters. Over distance, the microscopic particles would not lose their kinetic energy because of gravity. Also, its not like there wouldn't be small 1 kg masses hitting the Defiant. Now from this website, I get 8000 m/s as the "velocity of detonation" for a high explosive. So 8000 squared is 6.4e7 (m/s)^2. Now even if the mass of the particle was really really tiny, like 0.1 kg, that would be 3.2e6 joules of kinetic energy. Without a passive shield system separate from defensive shielding to deflect particles, microscopic holes would have depressurized the Defiant at such close proximity to the Jem'Hadar bugs. The Defiant's shields were down. Not to mention I can probably find more examples of shields being definitely down and ships being in close proximity to the explosion.

So uneless you can prove that a phased object is totally immune to shields and deflectors (and not just very weakly affect by them)

If passive systems exist to deflect particles, then maybe we can argue that the passive system can only stop particles of a certain mass, for example 0.1 kg. However, when the Enterprise went through the rock face, they didn't suddenly stop when they went through 0.1 kg worth of rock face. The phasing cloak allowed them to work independently of deflectors.

Of course all this is a moot point. Phase cloak will never be used by the Federation. Pressman's officers revolted on him and it took an Ensign who didn't know any better to defend him. Starfleet officers would die to protect the Treaty of Algeron, and a mass deployment of phase cloaks would be against the Federation's character, as much as the Empire making peace with the Rebels would be ridiculous.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Oh sweet merciful fuck. Brian, did you stop and think when you made that silly KE thing with the meatball and truck? Did you think about momentum, how rigid the two bodies are, or the size of the point of impact? Or did you just blindly go for kinetic energy overall and not think about the fact there's far more to it than that?

In brief, your analogy sucks balls.

[brianeyci]

In brief, your analogy sucks balls.

Well no, its not my analogy, it was something I remember from reading off a page that explained the difference between momentum and kinetic energy. Granted, its simplistic, but I don't see why it doesn't get the point across -- that a Jem'Hadar ship, going at a few hundred meters per second ramming into a GCS has less kinetic energy than microscopic particles which have far more kinetic energy because they are going at really high velocities.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Okay alter the analogy then. Make an ultra-dense mass have the same point of impact and go really slow, but a really "light" (don't know the opposite of dense lol) mass go at a really fast speed.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Please see my earlier comment about ignorant morons trying to discuss physics. Stop it, shithead. You don't know what you're talking about, and if you want to learn physics, you should do it with a physics textbook instead of expecting us to help you.

By your own admission you had trouble with high school science classes; your knowledge of the subject is shit, your posting history whenever it relates to science is contemptible, your arguments are disgustingly stupid, and you are so goddamned stubborn that you don't want to admit that you're in over your head and discussing things that you obviously don't undertand.

Collisions are not solely about kinetic energy, you idiot. If we were to use your argument, it would be safer to get hit in the face with a sledgehammer than to be struck with a 30mph wind for 1 second.

[brianeyci]

if you want to learn physics, you should do it with a physics textbook instead of expecting us to help you.

Understood. Good thing about the newer textbooks is that some of them come with a CD that have the book in total pdf format. I was thinking more and more about your post the other day, and you made a lot of sense. It is a horrible idea to learn science just for the purpose of debating sci-fi. Good thing it was nipped in the bud before I became something "utterly contemptable".

By your own admission you had trouble with high school science classes;

I mentioned that because you mentioned in the other thread that there were a lot of morons who "learn science to debate sci-fi only". I reacted defensively by saying I do have an interest in science beyond just debating sci-fi like a moron, or I wouldn't have continued to take science courses. It was not an attempt to say that I had any kind of "science credentials" -- even a moron like me knows that doing badly in HS science and barely getting by means nothing.

Time for talk is over. Later DW. When I do a "science related post" next, I will be less of a moron. Fuck, if I didn't find SD.net, I would have been an idiot for a lot longer, maybe forever.

Brian

[SirNitram]

In brief, your analogy sucks balls.

Well no, its not my analogy, it was something I remember from reading off a page that explained the difference between momentum and kinetic energy. Granted, its simplistic, but I don't see why it doesn't get the point across -- that a Jem'Hadar ship, going at a few hundred meters per second ramming into a GCS has less kinetic energy than microscopic particles which have far more kinetic energy because they are going at really high velocities.

Brian

......

Did the point just sail past you completely? There is more to collision physics than just kinetic energy! Hell, the nature of the shielding is also vastly important(Is there, for example, a great deal of flex possible in a Federation shield? Or in it's Nav Deflectors? How much, in comparison to naked hull?), because you work out whether KE is being shed in deformation or retained.

I cannot even begin to express the necessary contempt for the idea that a penetrator the size of a Bug, and a penetrator the size of a dust mote, are the same when it comes to the amount of damage caused. Do you comprehend why armour-peircing rounds are like they are? Or why they use materials like Tungstun or Depleted Uranium? The impact's effects are focused on a smaller area, not distributed around more evenly. This is so intuitive it's sad.

[LORDDOOMMASTER]

Lorddoommaster - You are really so.. well, with not completely evolved mind? REad what someone else say, than write your answer.

This is rather rich, coming from you. I read what you wrote. It was garbage and moronic to say the LEAST. Your argument is fallacious. You insult is pathetic. Maybe you'd like to discuss some actual physics here and we'll find out which one of us is the "less-evolved" mind. I can tell you now, it's you. Face it, you don't have an argument, you just have simple Trekkie fan wanking with no evidence. You can dress it up all you want, but you have no evidence that the Trek phase-cloak will work against Imperial shields and armor.

[wautd]

Even if all that stuff works, it wouldnt changed much on the overall outcome