ST vs. SW and Godzilla

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2004-12-13 09:13am

But the Bluegills were no doubt organic, and the queen was able to resist phasers for a brief time before NDFing. With Godzilla's high density, it might make him more resistant to phasers than typical organic matter, since there's nothing really typical about him biologically.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-12-13 09:34am

Didn't work that way in the movie. I seem to recall Godzilla getting killed by a few missle-armed fighter jets. Wink

FUck you. Japanese GOdzilla with Regenerator G-1 you cockmonkey!

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-12-13 09:41am

Kurgan wrote:After watching the original Godzilla (having seen numerous sequels) I've concluded that there are in fact "many Godzillas"... frozen in icebergs, trapped under the ocean/underground/in space, lost on islands whatever.

Unless he's magical (he's just a radioactively mutated dinosaur right?), he can't be disitintegrated and just form himself back together to fight another day...

Modern American Godzilla would get his ass kicked. Godzilla 2000 (for example) would be quite the challenge. I agree with those who suggest his radioactive nature and armor plates might be resistant to transporters and at least low level phasers.

Actually in Godzilla 2000 they exlain how he keeps regenerating. He actually regenerates at a cellular/molecular level. SO you could destroy him, and if so much as a single cell or even a part of a cell(as in,a tiny piece of one of his scales etc) he would regenerate.

*sits back and watches Walper die*

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-12-13 09:42am

The Shadow wrote:Just a speculation. Godzilla is organic. Since phasers are very effective against organic matter the Galaxy's main phaser arrays might be able to NDF him out of existence.

if there is so much as a mitochondria left, Godzilla will return... I dont know how complete an NDF reaction is.... but...

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-13 11:03am

On the note of the effectiveness of phasers on Godzilla's biological makeup, how comparable would his durablility be to say, Federation hulls? Federation hulls are pretty damn tough, yet phasers are capable of punching through those.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-13 11:15am

The Shadow wrote:Just a speculation. Godzilla is organic. Since phasers are very effective against organic matter the Galaxy's main phaser arrays might be able to NDF him out of existence.

That would have been a more compelling argument before Species 8472.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-13 11:29am

Darth Wong wrote:
The Shadow wrote:Just a speculation. Godzilla is organic. Since phasers are very effective against organic matter the Galaxy's main phaser arrays might be able to NDF him out of existence.
That would have been a more compelling argument before Species 8472.

Do we have reason to believe Godzilla's biological makeup is on par with Species 8472's? According to your site phasers can be rated at about 7 megatons per second?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-13 11:36am

Robert Walper wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
The Shadow wrote:Just a speculation. Godzilla is organic. Since phasers are very effective against organic matter the Galaxy's main phaser arrays might be able to NDF him out of existence.
That would have been a more compelling argument before Species 8472.
Do we have reason to believe Godzilla's biological makeup is on par with Species 8472's?

Given how easily an S8472 can be killed?

According to your site phasers can be rated at about 7 megatons per second?

That's more of an equivalent effect on shields, and as I said, this argument would have been more compelling before S8472.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-13 12:28pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Robert Walper wrote: Do we have reason to believe Godzilla's biological makeup is on par with Species 8472's?
Given how easily an S8472 can be killed?
According to your site phasers can be rated at about 7 megatons per second?
That's more of an equivalent effect on shields, and as I said, this argument would have been more compelling before S8472.

So can we conclude then that phasers will completely ineffective against Godzilla? What about Photon Torpedoes?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-13 12:31pm

Robert Walper wrote:So can we conclude then that phasers will completely ineffective against Godzilla? What about Photon Torpedoes?

Photon torpedoes should be effective, although it's hard to say with any degree of accuracy how much firepower you would actually need in order to kill Godzilla. One would think that the high-megaton torps wanked upon by Trekkies should do the job with a direct hit, but there is considerable evidence against those high firepower claims.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-13 12:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:So can we conclude then that phasers will completely ineffective against Godzilla? What about Photon Torpedoes?
Photon torpedoes should be effective, although it's hard to say with any degree of accuracy how much firepower you would actually need in order to kill Godzilla. One would think that the high-megaton torps wanked upon by Trekkies should do the job with a direct hit, but there is considerable evidence against those high firepower claims.

What about even lower limit calcs for photon torpedoes? Kiloton range? A GCS has quite a large payload of those (250 from STTNG "Conundrum"), and it can fire a spread of five in a single go. I recall the Enterprise firing torpedo after torpedo against the Borg cube in BoBW. I think we've seen one or two incidents where photon torpedoes (or their equivalents) have been fired upon planetary surfaces. IIRC, they don't seem to act like typical WMDs with wide areas of effect, but instead quite focused on what they're hitting. This would suggests the GCS could safely use them on Godzilla with little fear of collateral damage to the city or civilians?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-13 01:46pm

According to this, Sovereign launchers can fire twelve torpedoes every second. Not canon, but DITL must be getting the figures from somewhere, probably from Nemesis.

250 torpedoes is the Galaxy loadout, I don't see any reason why Sovereign should have more ammo since it has more launchers.

Brian

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-13 01:52pm

brianeyci wrote:According to this, Sovereign launchers can fire twelve torpedoes every second. Not canon, but DITL must be getting the figures from somewhere, probably from Nemesis.

Appealing to the authority of DITL is fucking stupid. This is the same idiot who claimed that the Genesis Device unleashes more energy than a supernova.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-13 02:48pm

Darth Wong wrote:Appealing to the authority of DITL is fucking stupid. This is the same idiot who claimed that the Genesis Device unleashes more energy than a supernova.

Well unless he pulled the number out of his ass, it had to come from somewhere. I haven't seen Nemesis yet, but in First Contact I believe Data launches three quantum torps in one or two seconds, so a reasonable lower limit would be three photon torps every second.

And even though I haven't seen Nemesis, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the battle between Scimitar and Ent-E can't have taken an hour (if it did holy shit the move is fucked up). However long the battle takes, just take the time from when the torpedoes run out and from when they start firing, divide by 250, and that could be an extreme lower limit.

Brian

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-13 05:08pm

If it had to come from somewhere, show where. The point is, very simply, the man who made that site is a dishonest scumbag.

Alot of people have debated him to find this. If you are so sure it's from something reputable, why don't you go find the reputable source and hold it up?

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-12-13 06:32pm

To deal with his regenerative abilities, how about we use a tractor beam and dump him into the sun? I think the sun should be able to burn him up. If he can escape the sun, then I don't think anything could destroy him from either universe. Would the ship be able to survive the inevitible counterattack and thrashing about by Godzilla?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-13 08:25pm

UCBooties wrote:To deal with his regenerative abilities, how about we use a tractor beam and dump him into the sun? I think the sun should be able to burn him up. If he can escape the sun, then I don't think anything could destroy him from either universe. Would the ship be able to survive the inevitible counterattack and thrashing about by Godzilla?

Would Godzilla survive the vacuum of space for that matter? Does he need to breathe?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-13 08:57pm

SirNitram wrote:Alot of people have debated him to find this. If you are so sure it's from something reputable, why don't you go find the reputable source and hold it up?

I'm not sure that the site is reputable. I just have a hard time believing that he pulled the twelve torpedoes thing out of his ass. But I'll take your word for it. The "reputable source" would have to be Nemesis. I haven't watched Nemesis, and don't intend to after reading DW's review of it. Maybe he did pull it out of his ass. Oh well, foolish on my part then.

The three torpedoes per second from First Contact might be an overestimate. There might be "cool-down" time in between torpedo bursts. Like I said, it seems incredibly easy to figure out an extreme lower limit for the Sovereign emptying its torpedo loadout, given that it happens in Nemesis. I guess thirty minutes (if they made last any longer than that oh boy). 250 divided by thirty is around 8, so 8 torps a minute, so a torp every lets say eight to ten seconds. Lets say it fires in bursts of three, since we saw that, so three torps, cooldown time of a few seconds, three torps, etc. Of course the torpedoes fired in First Contact in the scene I am thinking about (Data firing torpedoes at Zefram) were quantums, maybe quantum launchers shoot faster, but there really is no evidence of this.

All that ignores the improvements that would have been made between the era of Next Gen and Nemesis. Also ignores that Sovereign has more torpedo launchers and logically would have a greater payload. Also ignores Voyager, where Janeway has ordered a "full spread" of photon torpedoes which I believe is 10 torps (although they had to prepare for a minute to fire that many torps at once). So that is an extreme lower limit.

See, I'm a moron and I figured out all the above pretty quickly, took longer to type than to think. That's why I'm thinking that someone that took a closer look at the scene would come up with a far more accurate picture. So I gave a massive ST web portal the benefit of the doubt, kill me.

Brian

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-12-14 10:46am

Robert Walper wrote:
UCBooties wrote:To deal with his regenerative abilities, how about we use a tractor beam and dump him into the sun? I think the sun should be able to burn him up. If he can escape the sun, then I don't think anything could destroy him from either universe. Would the ship be able to survive the inevitible counterattack and thrashing about by Godzilla?
Would Godzilla survive the vacuum of space for that matter? Does he need to breathe?

In 'Godzilla vs. Monster Zero' both Godzilla and Rodan took on King Ghidorah on an airless moon.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 10:48am

Kuja wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
UCBooties wrote:To deal with his regenerative abilities, how about we use a tractor beam and dump him into the sun? I think the sun should be able to burn him up. If he can escape the sun, then I don't think anything could destroy him from either universe. Would the ship be able to survive the inevitible counterattack and thrashing about by Godzilla?
Would Godzilla survive the vacuum of space for that matter? Does he need to breathe?
In 'Godzilla vs. Monster Zero' both Godzilla and Rodan took on King Ghidorah on an airless moon.

Answers that then. Hopefully the tractor could keep him at a safe enough distance while they tow him to the sun.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-14 11:47am

Robert Walper wrote:Answers that then. Hopefully the tractor could keep him at a safe enough distance while they tow him to the sun.

That might be a big problem actually. It would be pretty easy to find an episode of Picard saying "Bring us into tractor range" and seeing an objective viewpoint showing the target ridiculously close.

However with a little work might find a pro-Trek estimate by looking for one of those episodes where a member of the crew says "We're x kilometers away", and seeing an objective viewpoint showing the crewmember is wrong by ten orders of magnitude or something. I believe the general practise is to follow the dialogue (or else we would be treating the crew members as retards). If a tractor beam is used in an episode where there is a stated range, you could maybe get away with it. Don't look at me though, I'm not going through all those scripts so that ST can beat Godzilla, not worth it

.

Anyway, is Godzilla's breath really that impressive that it could get through Ent's shields?

Brian

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 12:03pm

brianeyci wrote: Anyway, is Godzilla's breath really that impressive that it could get through Ent's shields?

Brian

Perhaps someone could provide us with some inkling on how destructive his fire breathing capabilities are, and how they compare to ST weaponry typically used in battle. After all, the GCS should only need to tow him towards the sun for a few minutes, maybe even not that long.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-14 12:08pm

Robert Walper wrote:After all, the GCS should only need to tow him towards the sun for a few minutes, maybe even not that long.

Actually not that long at all. Just get Godzilla moving towards the sun, and unless Godzilla has thrusters built in he'll slowly go towards it and Enterprise can sit back and sip shots and play poker. Maybe his fire breath could be just as thrusters, awkwardly though. I could imagine Godzilla thrashing about and randomly spewing his fire breath.

Brian

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-12-14 12:09pm

brianeyci wrote: I believe the general practise is to follow the dialogue (or else we would be treating the crew members as retards).

Visuals > dialogue.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... lysis.html

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-14 12:19pm

Robert Walper wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Anyway, is Godzilla's breath really that impressive that it could get through Ent's shields?

Brian
Perhaps someone could provide us with some inkling on how destructive his fire breathing capabilities are, and how they compare to ST weaponry typically used in battle. After all, the GCS should only need to tow him towards the sun for a few minutes, maybe even not that long.

We know that it shreds tanks like paper. As for towing him toward the Sun "for a few minutes", it takes several minutes for LIGHT to reach us from the Sun. It's farther away than you seem to realize.

BTW, Godzilla once survived being hit in the face by a micro-singularity (see "Godzilla Vs MegaGuirus").