Does Earth have a Planetary Shield?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-24 02:07pm

Doesn't fucking matter, even if the Whale Probe never asked for a surrender. If the Feds are as pussy as some say they should have surrendered. The Whale Probe is as close as you are going to get to an omnipotent enemy in orbit around Earth. Any half-baked brain would conclude that perhaps the Whale Probe was going to destroy Earth and was attacking it, and that maybe surrender would be the only choice. And any half-baked brain would have realized that maybe the Whale Probe understood English but was choosing not to respond. Except the Federation didn't surrender, they didn't even try to. So they have balls.

The whale probe DIDN'T understand english, Mr. Half-baked Brain

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-24 02:08pm

brianeyci wrote:
When an SSD appears in orbit above earth it DOESNT MATTER IF THERES NO MASS MEDIA! I mean can you honestly say noone would notice a 10km long starship in orbit? then if and when the SSD slagged a Federation base you think noone would notice?
So. Now you can see 10km long starships in orbit with the naked eye?

1. It's 17km (though that's the fault of the original poster),
and
2. depending on the orbit yes you can.

One admiral you said was willing to commit genocide against the borg, you realize you mean Xenocide for one? For two if they declared genocide against the emprie how would know who would be federation human and Imperial Human other than what ships they are on?

Another thing, how would the federation surrender? we have no idea if the Communications systems of the Federation are compatible with Imperial Holonet or hypercomm transmissions.

Leaving alone the rules of vs scenarios, it's canon fact that Wars uses subspace for short-range FTL transmissions, and is at least theoraticylly aware of EM. The universal translator can easily sort out the rest.

Duh. The Federation would not surrender. Or, at the least, they wouldn't surrender the way some are trying to say they would "OHHHHHHHHH SO BIG SHIP WE SUCK WE DIE".

Come again? Surrendering to an enemy whom you can't beat no matter what, in a situation where surrendering to him assures your survival (unlike, you know, the Borg or the Whale Probe), is the smart thing to do.

Federation Captains individually cannot stand innocent casualties -- and even that doesn't hold up. Sisko was willing to let innocents die to settle his vendetta against Eddington (although in the end it was a ruse). Not everybody is a Picard, there are Siskos out there, and Neychevs (sp). And what about the Prime Directive? They let innocents die all the fucking time.

That's not innocents, that's furriners. Quite some difference.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 02:11pm

Praxis wrote:The whale probe DIDN'T understand english, Mr. Half-baked Brain

Yes, but in the beginning the Federation Admiral and President didn't know that, they only knew that the Whale Probe was not responding. If they thought surrender was an option, they would have. Just because they don't respond it doesn't mean that they don't understand English (even though later the Whale Probe was really proven not to understand English).

Put it another way, if you are being attacked by someone who appears not to respond and is kicking the shit out of you, wouldn't you scream "I give up" if they were kicking the shit out of you so badly that you had no chance to survive except to give up? Of course you would. Or, you might "fight to the death".

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 02:15pm

Praxis wrote:Bashir was saying, "If we fight the Dominion, we'll take billions of casualties! We should surrender now, without fighting them!" And this was before the Dominion had even done any serious damage in the fight!

Now if the Dominion had 10,000 ships surrounding Earth and threatening to destroy it, do you think they would have surrendered? OBVIOUSLY.

Earth would have surrendered. The Federation Admiralty would not have surrendered, or issued a Federation-wide surrender order unless the Dominion gave them a chance. And that is part of the argument, the Empire would not give the Federation a chance. Why should they when it is more of a hassle to allow them to surrender than to take everything over all at once? If a shuttle can destroy Borg cubes, no point even worrying about SF.

And you're forgetting the 900 billion number.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 02:18pm

Batman wrote: 1. It's 17km (though that's the fault of the original poster),
and
2. depending on the orbit yes you can.

Still that wouldn't necessarily inspire fear in the civilians and cause them to rebel against SF. That is the point.

Leaving alone the rules of vs scenarios, it's canon fact that Wars uses subspace for short-range FTL transmissions, and is at least theoraticylly aware of EM. The universal translator can easily sort out the rest.

No. There was another thread discussing the universal translator just a week ago and concluded that the only way that the Feds would be able to understand Basic would be if the Empire helped them (DW supports this).

That's not innocents, that's furriners. Quite some difference.

Innocent foreigners are innocents, and the Feds show that they help foreigners all the time, even Romulans. Letting billions of civilians die would just be a matter of a Federation Admiral justifying it in his sick head with "its for the greater good, Federation freedom, etc."

Brian

Cabwi Desco · Post by **Cabwi Desco** » 2004-12-24 02:29pm

So. Now you can see 10km long starships in orbit with the naked eye? What if you are on the other side of the continent? And what if Starfleet was controlling the airwaves as they did in "Paradise Lost" so you wouldn't know that the ship was hostile?

Are you an Absolute Fuckin Moron? You can See the International Space Station on a clear night! thats not even a 1km long! You can see skylab if you strain your eyes! It would be no trouble at all for one to see a 10km Long Metal Dagger in orbit! even if you are 'on the other side of the CONTINENT' hell Im on the east coast im pretty sure the sky people see on the west coast is pretty much the same MORON! Even if the Federation controlled the Airwaves people would talk if the SSD slagged lets say San Fran, that seems popular for slagging, IT DOESNT FRAGGIN MATTER!

That was not to say that the Fed would declare genocide against the Empire (duh). That was to show to what extreme Neychev (sp), a Federation Admiral, would be willing to go to preserve the Federation, even sacrifice billions of innocent lives.

No they wouldnt the federation is all about preserving innocent life at all cost. Prove me wrong, WITH CANON and none of that BLUFFING B.S. They would never follow through giving up innocent lives

Duh. The Federation would not surrender. Or, at the least, they wouldn't surrender the way some are trying to say they would "OHHHHHHHHH SO BIG SHIP WE SUCK WE DIE".

whos to say they wouldnt? you? HA

Federation Captains individually cannot stand innocent casualties -- and even that doesn't hold up. Sisko was willing to let innocents die to settle his vendetta against Eddington (although in the end it was a ruse). Not everybody is a Picard, there are Siskos out there, and Neychevs (sp). And what about the Prime Directive? They let innocents die all the fucking time.

Yeah but they wouldnt let the Civilians of EARTH the Human homeworld, be destroyed! They are pussy dicks about that kind of thing! And like you said sisko B.S.ed! he wasnt gonna really do it! the federation command structure is a bunch of whiny bitches when it comes to innocent civilian lives being lost. The minute there is a war the federation want the bitchy Diplomatic way out rather than letting time take its course and possibly finaly reach an end to war.

The Empire could start laying off earths largest cities and the federation would surrender as a whole, its doubtful the fleet could even take on an SSD. I doubt any sort of technobable can stop the destruction of a city.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-24 02:29pm

brianeyci wrote:
Batman wrote: And this is relevant how exactly?
If Picard is representative of the qualities that Federation uses in putting people in the Captain's chair, then when faced with an omnipotent being Federation Captains might not roll over as easily as some think.

You misunderstand- I'm asking why this is relevant to the Wars invasion situation. An unknown entity threatening to kill half your crew does not equal a totally invulnerable enemy with the demonstrated ability to obliterate you.

as the Whale Probe never ASKED for a surrender, what would have been the point of sending one? Surrendering to an enemy who is going to anihilate you no matter what is sort of pointless, and that was the situation the Feds faced (what with no request of surrender being received.
Not comparable with the vs scenario, where there WILL be a request for surrender.
Doesn't fucking matter, even if the Whale Probe never asked for a surrender.If the Feds are as pussy as some say they should have surrendered.

You surrender because you assume it will buy you something. If you expect to be anihilated anyway why bother?

The Whale Probe is as close as you are going to get to an omnipotent enemy in orbit around Earth. Any half-baked brain would conclude that perhaps the Whale Probe was going to destroy Earth and was attacking it, and that maybe surrender would be the only choice.

Based on what, exactly? Surrendering is based on the assumption that it will gain you something, historically based on the agressor going 'surrender, or else'. If the agressor doesn't talk to you and starts ruining your ecosphere chances are surrendering is pointless.

And any half-baked brain would have realized that maybe the Whale Probe understood English but was choosing not to respond.

Completely useless deduction. The realization that maybe an enemy does something is good for what exactly?

Except the Federation didn't surrender, they didn't even try to. So they have balls.

No, they understood surrendering to an enemy who doesn't ask for surrender,leave alone offer tems for it, is pointless.

What is the proof that there will be a request for surrender? Why would the Empire even need to factor enemy surrender into the equation given that one of their vessels can take on all of Starfleet? They take over everything all at once. Surrender would be a hassle more than anything.

Are you really that dense? Because unless they ask for surrender they'll end up slagging all the terittory they are assumedly trying to conquer[/].
Unless we assume that the Empire is on some kind of Jihad it is counterproductive for them to slag planets. Why bother taking it if it's no use to you afterwards?

Because the Empire WANTS that information to get out? The Feds realizing the<'re outgunned thirteen trillion ways from sunday makes the Empire's job easier, thus they have no reason to delay the distribution of that data.
Not when you so seriously outclass your opponent that you can lift a pinky finger and destroy them. Surrender would be a hassle, they can drop stormtroopers on every Federation planet and plow through Federation fleets, why would the Empire ask for surrender when they can just destroy the military just as easily and take everything over?

Because it serves no purpose. What, pray tell, would be the advantages?

You don't even need to worry about casualties on your side at all, and why would the Empire want to keep Federation ship assets alive since they are useless?

Why exactly are they useless? They are AQ vessels serviceable by AQ crews which serve AQ needs. Nice to have around until you have upgraded the AQ to Wars standards.

Destroy themand you are saving the hassle of taking care of prisoners, so on.

With a manpower advantage of roughly infinity to one. Some hassle.

BDZing a planet is one matter, since they want to keep the resources and use the population, but keeping alive useless ships and enemy military forces who might start a rebellion?

I like it how you assume the 'letting the information out' part must mean them leaving significant numbers of ships alone as opposed to letting the conquered planets tell the tale of their anihilation. Who cares about a rebellion by military forces that are incapable to hurt you?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-24 02:35pm

brianeyci wrote:
Leaving alone the rules of vs scenarios, it's canon fact that Wars uses subspace for short-range FTL transmissions, and is at least theoraticylly aware of EM. The universal translator can easily sort out the rest.
No. There was another thread discussing the universal translator just a week ago and concluded that the only way that the Feds would be able to understand Basic would be if the Empire helped them (DW supports this).

And as the Imperials enjoy conquering useless lumps of molten rock, they will of course sit by and let the entirety of the AQ be glassed over due to communication failures. :rollseyes:

That's not innocents, that's furriners. Quite some difference.
Innocent foreigners are innocents, and the Feds show that they help foreigners all the time, even Romulans.

You're contradicting yourself. Either the Feds cant't see foreigners suffer or they let them die by the billions due to the Prime Directive. Pick one.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-24 02:36pm

brianeyci wrote:
Praxis wrote:Bashir was saying, "If we fight the Dominion, we'll take billions of casualties! We should surrender now, without fighting them!" And this was before the Dominion had even done any serious damage in the fight!

Now if the Dominion had 10,000 ships surrounding Earth and threatening to destroy it, do you think they would have surrendered? OBVIOUSLY.
Earth would have surrendered. The Federation Admiralty would not have surrendered, or issued a Federation-wide surrender order unless the Dominion gave them a chance. And that is part of the argument, the Empire would not give the Federation a chance. Why should they when it is more of a hassle to allow them to surrender than to take everything over all at once? If a shuttle can destroy Borg cubes, no point even worrying about SF.

And you're forgetting the 900 billion number.

Brian

900 billion? You must have skipped my last post on page 2. Go back and scroll down.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 02:47pm

Cabwi Desco wrote:Are you an Absolute Fuckin Moron? You can See the International Space Station on a clear night! thats not even a 1km long! You can see skylab if you strain your eyes! It would be no trouble at all for one to see a 10km Long Metal Dagger in orbit! even if you are 'on the other side of the CONTINENT' hell Im on the east coast im pretty sure the sky people see on the west coast is pretty much the same MORON! Even if the Federation controlled the Airwaves people would talk if the SSD slagged lets say San Fran, that seems popular for slagging, IT DOESNT FRAGGIN MATTER!

That is why I mentioned the "other side of the planet" thing. It is not the same, not if the Federation doesn't have the same freedom of speech and public media that western nations have. Federation citizens would not rebel against their Starfleet masters and demand a surrender is the point I'm trying to make, not that some people can or cannot see the SSD.

No they wouldnt the federation is all about preserving innocent life at all cost. Prove me wrong, WITH CANON and none of that BLUFFING B.S. They would never follow through giving up innocent lives

Necheyv ordering Picard to commit genocide against billions of innocent lives isn't enough? Sure they aren't Federation citizens, but they are innocents and as you pointed out the Federation is "all about preserving innocent life". Prime Directive is a good example too. The only way you can get away with it is if you say that the Federation sees a difference between innocent Federation citizens and innocent foreign citizens, which contradicts what you said that the Federation is "all about preserving innocent life".

Duh. The Federation would not surrender. Or, at the least, they wouldn't surrender the way some are trying to say they would "OHHHHHHHHH SO BIG SHIP WE SUCK WE DIE".
whos to say they wouldnt? you? HA

Holy shit what a wanker. The Federation won't roll over and die because they see something bigass, they will need to see its capabilities first.

Yeah but they wouldnt let the Civilians of EARTH the Human homeworld, be destroyed! They are pussy dicks about that kind of thing! And like you said sisko B.S.ed! he wasnt gonna really do it! the federation command structure is a bunch of whiny bitches when it comes to innocent civilian lives being lost. The minute there is a war the federation want the bitchy Diplomatic way out rather than letting time take its course and possibly finaly reach an end to war.

You haven't addressed the Whale Probe thing and why they didn't transmit "We Surrender" on all frequencies.

Sure, but not if the Empire doesn't let them or if the Empire's attack is so brutal that they take out SF Command right away.

The Empire could start laying off earths largest cities and the federation would surrender as a whole, its doubtful the fleet could even take on an SSD. I doubt any sort of technobable can stop the destruction of a city.

Sure, if the Empire acts out of character, flaunts its might and then lets the Federation have time to surrender. Why not land millions of stormtroopers, destroy all Federation military assets, and be done with it?

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 02:50pm

Batman wrote:And as the Imperials enjoy conquering useless lumps of molten rock, they will of course sit by and let the entirety of the AQ be glassed over due to communication failures. :rollseyes:

Who says they need to BDZ everything? Just destroy all Federation military assets, land millions of stormtroopers, and be done with it.

Innocent foreigners are innocents, and the Feds show that they help foreigners all the time, even Romulans.
You're contradicting yourself. Either the Feds cant't see foreigners suffer or they let them die by the billions due to the Prime Directive. Pick one.

No I'm not. The Federation helps foreigners when there is little or no risk to themselves -- for example, you join the Federation, you get its tech, if not you stay behind cause of the Prime Directive.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 02:56pm

Batman wrote:You misunderstand- I'm asking why this is relevant to the Wars invasion situation. An unknown entity threatening to kill half your crew does not equal a totally invulnerable enemy with the demonstrated ability to obliterate you.

Fine, point conceded.

Based on what, exactly? Surrendering is based on the assumption that it will gain you something, historically based on the agressor going 'surrender, or else'. If the agressor doesn't talk to you and starts ruining your ecosphere chances are surrendering is pointless.

Still, if the Federation was as pussy as some would like to think, they should have surrendered to the Whale Probe even if they would have gained nothing.

No, they understood surrendering to an enemy who doesn't ask for surrender,leave alone offer tems for it, is pointless.

See above.

Are you really that dense? Because unless they ask for surrender they'll end up slagging all the terittory they are assumedly trying to conquer[/]. Unless we assume that the Empire is on some kind of Jihad it is counterproductive for them to slag planets. Why bother taking it if it's no use to you afterwards?

They don't need to slag. They land millions of stormtroopers on planets, take out Federation military assets, and be done with it. All in a matter of hours. No time for a Federation-wide all-points bulletin.

Because it serves no purpose. What, pray tell, would be the advantages?

Because destroying the military would get rid of possible terrorists and the most likely part of society to rebel against you. You don't have to BDZ everything, just get rid of the military and land millions of stormtroopers.

Why exactly are they useless? They are AQ vessels serviceable by AQ crews which serve AQ needs. Nice to have around until you have upgraded the AQ to Wars standards.

Good point. However given the speed of Imperial Hyperspace, a few Imperial transports could meet all the needs of AQ trade. Its not there are Coruscants in ST, planets are self-sufficient. They are useless because they move slow, they are the equivalent of pointed sticks, and they contain potentially dangerous members of society who might start terrorist activities later al la Rebellion.

I like it how you assume the 'letting the information out' part must mean them leaving significant numbers of ships alone as opposed to letting the conquered planets tell the tale of their anihilation. Who cares about a rebellion by military forces that are incapable to hurt you?

Terrorists can still do things on the ground to hurt Imperial occupation forces. Destroy all military targets, take over the planets, and be done with it. Who cares about surrender. This is the kind of brutality the Empire would use against the Federation anyway.

Brian

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-24 03:06pm

brianeyci wrote:
Batman wrote:And as the Imperials enjoy conquering useless lumps of molten rock, they will of course sit by and let the entirety of the AQ be glassed over due to communication failures. :rollseyes:
Who says they need to BDZ everything? Just destroy all Federation military assets, land millions of stormtroopers, and be done with it.

Leaving ample time for the Fed communication services to broadcast that that's what happened. Which is going to benefit the Imps. Which was sort of my point.

Cabwi Desco · Post by **Cabwi Desco** » 2004-12-24 03:09pm

brianeyci wrote:

That is why I mentioned the "other side of the planet" thing. It is not the same, not if the Federation doesn't have the same freedom of speech and public media that western nations have. Federation citizens would not rebel against their Starfleet masters and demand a surrender is the point I'm trying to make, not that some people can or cannot see the SSD.
Um you didnt say other side of planet you said CONTINENT! DUMBASS!

Necheyv ordering Picard to commit genocide against billions of innocent lives isn't enough? Sure they aren't Federation citizens, but they are innocents and as you pointed out the Federation is "all about preserving innocent life". Prime Directive is a good example too. The only way you can get away with it is if you say that the Federation sees a difference between innocent Federation citizens and innocent foreign citizens, which contradicts what you said that the Federation is "all about preserving innocent life".
Oh ONE FRAGGIN TIME! you want to take ONE FRAGGIN TIME as Basis for all of starfleets Commanding Officers!!

Holy shit what a wanker. The Federation won't roll over and die because they see something bigass, they will need to see its capabilities first.
Umm if something was 17km (sorry My Mistake) long i think they would think twice before shooting a Photon Torpedo at it...And like i said they would slag San Fran jsut for good measure, and most of the federation admirals arent in San Fran most of the time, just for summits and large meetings.

You haven't addressed the Whale Probe thing and why they didn't transmit "We Surrender" on all frequencies.

Sure, but not if the Empire doesn't let them or if the Empire's attack is so brutal that they take out SF Command right away.
Umm the whale probe didnt ASK FOR SURRENDER, and again even if they did whos to say the whale probe would undertand( and again i say who YOU!?) the empire would understand and did ask.
and again SF command doesnt hold all of starfleets High Command. they are usually out on other S.B.s

Sure, if the Empire acts out of character, flaunts its might and then lets the Federation have time to surrender. Why not land millions of stormtroopers, destroy all Federation military assets, and be done with it?

Brian
Why waste ordinance when you can just have the entire planet surrender. and since when is FLAUNTING military might out of character for the empire? The sheer existence of the SSD is proof of their FLAUNTING military power. And to Quote the Canon source TEGTV&V

In the Military Sense,the super star destroyer was somewhat Impractical, since a smaller ship could fulfil its mission duties. Rather, the Super Star Destroyers represented the emperors unlimited power and resources. the Imperial star destroyer frightened worlds into submission; the Super Star Destroyer terrorized them beyond the capability for resistance. At over 5 (10 by my measure) times the length of a standard star destroyer, it could conquer without firing a shot, and so win the battle before engaging the enemy.

There you have it...

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-24 03:14pm

brianeyci wrote:
Based on what, exactly? Surrendering is based on the assumption that it will gain you something, historically based on the agressor going 'surrender, or else'. If the agressor doesn't talk to you and starts ruining your ecosphere chances are surrendering is pointless.
Still, if the Federation was as pussy as some would like to think, they should have surrendered to the Whale Probe even if they would have gained nothing.
No, they understood surrendering to an enemy who doesn't ask for surrender,leave alone offer tems for it, is pointless.
See above.

So basically you're assuming that as the Feds haven't been proven to be completely spineless they will stand up to an enemy in a situation where this is guaranteed to be their utter and complete anihilation, did I get that right?

They don't need to slag. They land millions of stormtroopers on planets, take out Federation military assets, and be done with it. All in a matter of hours. No time for a Federation-wide all-points bulletin.

And the reason for them PREVENTING that bulletin to go out are?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 03:22pm

Batman wrote:So basically you're assuming that as the Feds haven't been proven to be completely spineless they will stand up to an enemy in a situation where this is guaranteed to be their utter and complete anihilation, did I get that right?

I am using Occam's Razor. The Federation has never faced an enemy like the Empire. People saying the Federation would capitulate, or would have time to capitulate, are basing their argument on generalities like "you know when ur beaten" and not getting the point that only Starfleet Admirals could order their military to stand down and that only bridge crew would be privy to the destruction of the Empire. By Occam's Razor, all the instances of the Federation facing seemingly insurmountable odds and not rolling over and dying means they won't roll over and die as a first instinct after seeing a 17 km long ship. This moment of indecision is enough for the Empire to trample the Federation and make any surrender a moot point anyway since the military would be destroyed.

They don't need to slag. They land millions of stormtroopers on planets, take out Federation military assets, and be done with it. All in a matter of hours. No time for a Federation-wide all-points bulletin.
And the reason for them PREVENTING that bulletin to go out are?

They don't need to prevent it. Naturally standard Imperial tactics would include jamming all transmissions. It might be easy that the Imps don't notice they are jamming a surrender order since they don't understand English. And the Empire would take over the Federation so quickly they wouldn't have time to send out the surrender like that. Individually Captains and colonies might try and surrender, but only if they aren't overrun in the initial onslaught and only if the Imps help them figure out Basic. The Empire subtle is not.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 03:32pm

Cabwi Desco wrote:Um you didnt say other side of planet you said CONTINENT! DUMBASS!

Fine.

Oh ONE FRAGGIN TIME! you want to take ONE FRAGGIN TIME as Basis for all of starfleets Commanding Officers!!

No. I am using one time of a Federation Admiral ordering genocide as the basis for the thinking behind the Federation Admiralty. The Federatin Admiralty ordered Neychev to order Picard to use his xenocide tool. The Federation Admiralty would be the only authority able to order a Federation-wide surrender. Individual ships could surrender, if the Empire helped them learn basic, and if they even bothered to listen to them before blasting them.

Umm if something was 17km (sorry My Mistake) long i think they would think twice before shooting a Photon Torpedo at it...And like i said they would slag San Fran jsut for good measure, and most of the federation admirals arent in San Fran most of the time, just for summits and large meetings.

They have shot torpedoes at really large ships before. They would have to test the SSD with torpedoes, many many torpedoes. They might think that the SSD is like the Borg, and if you shoot it enough maybe you will do something to it.

Fine, but the Federation Admirals would be on the frontier, in Starbases, isolated from casualty reports and anything else that would allow them to decide as a whole to issue a Federation-wide surrender. That's if the starbases don't get annihilated first.

Umm the whale probe didnt ASK FOR SURRENDER, and again even if they did whos to say the whale probe would undertand( and again i say who YOU!?) the empire would understand and did ask.
and again SF command doesnt hold all of starfleets High Command. they are usually out on other S.B.s

Doesn't matter, if the Federation was as pussy as some put it they should have surrendered when they encountered a being incapable of hurting it. Their distress hails were "standard language" or some technobabble, not "surrenders in all languages". They continued to try and communicate with it despite it not responding.

Why waste ordinance when you can just have the entire planet surrender. and since when is FLAUNTING military might out of character for the empire? The sheer existence of the SSD is proof of their FLAUNTING military power. And to Quote the Canon source TEGTV&V

Sure but that's against enemies that actually have a chance against the Empire. In SW, planetary shielding exists that can withstand even a few seconds of DS level firepower, and the better shielding renders a planet impervious to bombardment even by SSD's. Might as well say that because the Rebellion defeated the Empire, the Federation can as well. SF cannot defeat the Empire, the disparity is like a human squashing an ant, the ants should be killed before they crawl up your pants and bite your dick. Annoying but that's about it.

Brian

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-24 03:36pm

brianeyci wrote:
Batman wrote:So basically you're assuming that as the Feds haven't been proven to be completely spineless they will stand up to an enemy in a situation where this is guaranteed to be their utter and complete anihilation, did I get that right?
I am using Occam's Razor.

No you're not.

The Federation has never faced an enemy like the Empire. People saying the Federation would capitulate, or would have time to capitulate, are basing their argument on generalities like "you know when ur beaten"

No, they're basing it on the assumption that the Imps want to actually capture the AQ and therefore would allow the AQ forces time to do so (big deal considering they can repel AQ forces indefinetely[/.]

and not getting the point that only Starfleet Admirals could order their military to stand down and that only bridge crew would be privy to the destruction of the Empire.

You are making no sense whatsoever. EVERYBODY on a conquered panet is in privy to the destruction of the FEds, and the Imps have no inclination to stop that information going around, quite the contrary.[/quote]

By Occam's Razor, all the instances of the Federation facing seemingly insurmountable odds and not rolling over and dying means they won't roll over and die as a first instinct after seeing a 17 km long ship.

There hasn't been a single instant of the Feds facing insurmountable odds in all of Trek. There have been a few in the face of completely unknownodds. That's quite a difference.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 03:43pm

Batman wrote:No, they're basing it on the assumption that the Imps want to actually capture the AQ and therefore would allow the AQ forces time to do so (big deal considering they can repel AQ forces indefinetely[/.]

Faster, more efficient to drop SSD's, ISD's, etc, out of hyperspace, drop millions of troops down on planets and blow apart any Galaxies that happens to be in the way. If you want to conquer the AQ fast, that's how you do it, and if you don't want a Rebellion springing up later, that's how you get rid of those most likely to lead an uprising against you.

You are making no sense whatsoever. EVERYBODY on a conquered panet is in privy to the destruction of the FEds, and the Imps have no inclination to stop that information going around, quite the contrary.

Nope. Federation stops information from going around and can do so according to "Paridise Lost". And not everybody on a conquered planet is privy to the destruction of the Feds. In TNG, there was an alternate universe episode where Picard said that teh Feds were about to lose horribly to the Klingons and that nboody knew except very high levels to keep morale up.

By Occam's Razor, all the instances of the Federation facing seemingly insurmountable odds and not rolling over and dying means they won't roll over and die as a first instinct after seeing a 17 km long ship.
There hasn't been a single instant of the Feds facing insurmountable odds in all of Trek. There have been a few in the face of completely unknownodds. That's quite a difference.

Depends what you call insurrmountable. I call the Dominion insurmountable, the Borg insurmountable, the Whale Probe insurmountable. In all those instances they were saved by technobabble and dues ex. So they have faced seemingly insurmountable odds and didn't surrender. The Empire would seem to be insurmountable, and the Feds would do what would be in-character -- attempt to engineer some technology to fight the Empire. Meanwhile, the Empire has already taken over the Federation.

Brian

Cabwi Desco · Post by **Cabwi Desco** » 2004-12-24 04:00pm

brianeyci wrote:Sure but that's against enemies that actually have a chance against the Empire. In SW, planetary shielding exists that can withstand even a few seconds of DS level firepower, and the better shielding renders a planet impervious to bombardment even by SSD's. Might as well say that because the Rebellion defeated the Empire, the Federation can as well. SF cannot defeat the Empire, the disparity is like a human squashing an ant, the ants should be killed before they crawl up your pants and bite your dick. Annoying but that's about it.
Brian

so your glancing over my whole EGTV&V quote 'eh? typical trekdefense, faced with canon and refuses to acknowledge...

No one would be STUPID ENOUGH to try to tackle the defensive capabilities of a SSD. The only way is if you had equivalent firepower, which the federation i must say, has not.
And as many have said the Earth has no panetary shielding. their wars have never gotten that close to home minus the breen and the borg.

Cabwi Desco · Post by **Cabwi Desco** » 2004-12-24 04:03pm

and by god if you mention the crap of paradise lost one more time i wil possitively smack you! the federation cant stop word of mouth they ARENT THE GESTAPO!

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 04:11pm

Cabwi Desco wrote:so your glancing over my whole EGTV&V quote 'eh? typical trekdefense, faced with canon and refuses to acknowledge...

Well wtf. Trekdefense? I see the quote, I see the canon, and frankly even though the SSD can take out entire worlds without firing a single shot that is against enemies who know the capabilities of the SSD. And what enemies, and who? A lot of questions unanswered. And I bust out DW,

Main Site wrote:The Rebels' primitive Hoth energy shield was therefore capable of withstanding the full bombardment of 5 ISD's and 1 SSD, carrying an order of magnitude more firepower than a Base-Delta-Zero operation would require, indefinitely (in other words, >5 billion TW).

So SSD's do not just simply cause planets to capitulate by their mere presence, they cause worlds that know an SSD's capabilities to capitulate and failing that they use planetary bombardment or drop troops. Which, unfortunately for the Feds, the Feds do not know the capbilities of an SSD, its just another Borg cube to them until they get their asses handed to them. And don't strawman me, obviously the Feds don't have planetary shielding the level of Wars, but that disproves your point that SSD's accomplish what they do by sheer size alone.

No one would be STUPID ENOUGH to try to tackle the defensive capabilities of a SSD. The only way is if you had equivalent firepower, which the federation i must say, has not.
And as many have said the Earth has no panetary shielding. their wars have never gotten that close to home minus the breen and the borg.

Nope. The Federation has no idea what they are facing, are unable to scan into it, and can't figure out how powerful the SSD's shields are. First instinct would be to fight, especially if you outnumber the SSD and are fighting for your homeplanet. No planetary shielding in Trek could stop a Wars bombardment anyway.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-24 04:15pm

Cabwi Desco wrote:and by god if you mention the crap of paradise lost one more time i wil possitively smack you! the federation cant stop word of mouth they ARENT THE GESTAPO!

The Empire could take over the entire Federation in a matter of hours/days. Word of mouth won't be enough to get Federation civilians to rebel against their Starfleet masters, there won't be enough time for the word to spread. And its not just Paradise Lost, in the alternate universe where the Ent-C didn't help the Klingons against the Romulans, Picard mentions that nobody knows that the Federation is on the verge of defeat and about to surrender.

Brian

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-24 06:03pm

You still have failed to answer my refutation of your '900 billion casualties to force a federation surrender' number at the end of page 2

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-24 07:46pm

Fine, I'll handle it. Praxis, note that Dr. Bashir's suggestion was not merely NOT taken, it was considered highly offensive. The brain trust was basically shut down as a result. What is proven? There are at least five smart people in the Federation who would surrender under such circumstances, and the brass disagreed with them. Emphasis on the latter point.