Sith Lord rises to power over... the Federation?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-30 09:42pm

why would they rebel? by all accounts and purposes, the sw galaxy seemed to love the guy, in that the ships gathered against him were about the size of a pirate fleet.

as well, the federation citizens seem to be living in a commune, and not all that ready to rebel, as opposed to free speech crazies of the old republic.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 09:54pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Great, so you have nothing and are making assumption that come straight from your ass.

I mean while we're at it...suddenly they will make this leap of discovery, because obviously you must presume the Force will balance itself. And while we're at it...in ten thousand years later a race will develop the teachings of the Jedi along with the powers that accompany it.

Fine, I pulled it out of my diarrehea (sp) filled ass. The rebellion would likely fail because they could not directly confront Palpatine. However that does not change the point that there would be a rebellion, nor that the rebellion would be a pain for Palpatine.

No, you've kept using circular logic by saying there will be a rebellion because he'll go pwower mad.

You've yet to show how they will do so this beyond the possiblity of a couple captains, but you know what.

30 years later, and he could very well replace the ENTIRE STARFLEET with his men, personally picked because he pretty made them from the ground up.

He only has to worry about what...at most 10,000 starfleet captains?

Yeah, small number compared to what he had to deal with the Republic.

The size of the rebellion would just have to include a couple of the member worlds covertly supporting and building a fleet for them. I have already given points that a single planet posesses the resources to seriously threaten Starfleet. It would just take 1 of those 10,000 Starfleet Captains going to the other side, or perhaps a few of those two billion Starfleet personnel and a few planets to create a headache for Super-Starfleet.

A couple of Captains would create a headache for a Palpatine, maybe not at once but over time. And even if Palpatine replaced every Captain in Starfleet, there is still the point that worlds will leave the Federation or covertly help the rebellion started by people who do not support Palpatine's agenda. If worlds attempt to leave, Palpatine would stomp them, creating more sympathy for the Federation.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-30 10:04pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Nice to see you and reading are still missing the train.

Thrity years later dumbfuck.

He took thrity years before proclaiming the New Order. It's amazing you are saying Rebellion yet your examples are within weeks and we have seen that Federation doctrine can change in a matter of a few years of their wants.

So far you're going "when he goes power mad there will be brave men to stand against him........because there always is."

Do you even see how bad a piece of circular logic this is?

Thirty years later, if a planet doesn't have a represenative with real power in the Federation Council, the planet would be incensed and perhaps covertly support operations against the Federation. I don't see how the fucking thirty years makes any difference at all. Thirty years from now Bajor is going to be pissed if Palpatine disbands the Council as thirty years later no matter how popular Palpatine is. They might be less pissed, but still pissed. Are you saying that planets would willingly contribute resources to the Federation while having no real say in the policy and decision making process? Palpatine would rule by fear, that is in-character of him.

He will go power mad, because that is in-character for him. And there will be people to stand against him, because not everybody will be under Palpatine's mind control spell and planets who no longer have any say in how the Federation is run would be pissed off.

Gee, he waited before...and he only has to worry about 150 planets this time. He has shown the patience to form an army from nothing.

And no...but no Jedi allows him a lot more ease to fuck with the higher level ups mind to go along with some of his more readical changes without the worry of Yoda showing up and telling him he's there to kick his ass back to Korriban.

He is dealing with ST resources and needs to amass an army able to deal with 150 planets. No Jedi does allow him to fuck with higher level up minds, but I have never argued that the rebellion would start in Starfleet, only that a few Captains may rebel or that worlds who had no representation in the Federation would covertly support a rebellion.

Brian

Icmoigigan · Post by **Icmoigigan** » 2004-12-30 11:40pm

About making a huge army, could Palpatine not use transporters to make an army of clones? A transporter cloned Riker and the fading of genetic quality could be avoided by creating an information storage device large enough to permanently hold a DNA signal or whatever they call it.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-30 11:54pm

there *is* historical evidence for popular elected men to become dictators - hitler and ceaser come to mind.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-12-31 03:21am

brianeyci wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Nice to see you and reading are still missing the train.

Thrity years later dumbfuck.

He took thrity years before proclaiming the New Order. It's amazing you are saying Rebellion yet your examples are within weeks and we have seen that Federation doctrine can change in a matter of a few years of their wants.

So far you're going "when he goes power mad there will be brave men to stand against him........because there always is."

Do you even see how bad a piece of circular logic this is?
Thirty years later, if a planet doesn't have a represenative with real.. <snip>

I couldn't see why people would argue it won't be MUCH easier for Palpatine to raise to power in the Federation, which is much smaller and less populated than SW galaxy, not to mention Feddie Citizens are mostly *conformists* compared to the nasty SW population!

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-12-31 06:50am

Sisko's comments in Paradise Lost seemed to indicate many Federation citizens wouldn't stand for a military dictatorship.

IMHO, Palpy would have more luck in the Terran Empire of the Mirrorverse.

You have to kill him. You have to kill all of his clones. You have to kill anyone in the immediate area that he might be able to possess. You have to do this dsespite the fact that he can create events that are probably in the vicinity of 1E28 joules(rough guess on the energy needed to kill an Eclipse), and can corrupt worlds like Risa so they amp his personal energies.

and God how I hate EU sith-wanking.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-31 07:07am

brianeyci wrote:Thirty years later, if a planet doesn't have a represenative with real power in the Federation Council, the planet would be incensed and perhaps covertly support operations against the Federation. I don't see how the fucking thirty years makes any difference at all. Thirty years from now Bajor is going to be pissed if Palpatine disbands the Council as thirty years later no matter how popular Palpatine is. They might be less pissed, but still pissed. Are you saying that planets would willingly contribute resources to the Federation while having no real say in the policy and decision making process? Palpatine would rule by fear, that is in-character of him.

He will go power mad, because that is in-character for him. And there will be people to stand against him, because not everybody will be under Palpatine's mind control spell and planets who no longer have any say in how the Federation is run would be pissed off.

Ah, so when it comes down to it we need to use writer's intent.

He's power mad, because it's in character...but waiting till the time is right, is a fluke.

And yep...they are going to rebel...for what?

You'd be amazed what can happen in thirty years. You are jumping instantly to this thought that the Mighty Federation Warriors will of course be riled to fight, when he could very well have them groveling at him because he's institued better policies of peace and if he's collaberated for a war. They would hail him as a savior.

So far you've painted a one dimensional picture because in this scenario is a scenario of what would a smart man with powers of mind control do with the Federation. An organization that is such a dicotomy that it barely knows what the fuck the right and left hands do.

He is dealing with ST resources and needs to amass an army able to deal with 150 planets. No Jedi does allow him to fuck with higher level up minds, but I have never argued that the rebellion would start in Starfleet, only that a few Captains may rebel or that worlds who had no representation in the Federation would covertly support a rebellion.

Brian

Once again...the man waited more then thirty years. More then enough time to replace those he wants in power, and make it look legal and binding to their eyes.

He has no opposition, no one that would suspect he's anything other then a non assuming politician, if he should go that route.

And I'm still waiting for him becoming mustache twirling villain since he now has no mortal enemy out there. Just 150 major planets of sheep needing a sheppard in his eyes.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2004-12-31 07:59am

and God how I hate EU sith-wanking.[/quote]

You are right on the mark here. Palpy came to power by popular support, ok a small number of people got opressed in the process. Who cares?
In the ST universe there are places where the weak are stomped on and the Feds couldn't care less.

Palpatine has to place himself in a position of power and gain control of the military, then he's set. This he can do just by making the right connections. Corporations have a hard on for dictators because they have a tendency to ban unions and spend lots of money. Or are those feddie ships bolted together by some strange group of happy workers that just like building starships?

Controlling the military is easy, they follow orders. It's nice to think everytime someone gives a bad order some Picard or Sisco is there to go rogue... well not in real life. They start pulling shit like that at every turn they'll be retired faster than they can say Emperor Palpatine. The prime directive is a nice set of ideals that rarely stand in the face of reality. A lot of people would happily go along if it guarantees them their position.

This EU wankfest aside, Palpatines force powers allow him to sense peoples feelings, and give those feelings he likes a little nudge in the right direction. It's easier to get people follow you when they think you're right.
Kenobi said it best," the force has a strong influence on those weak of mind". Palpy finds the weakest links who have most power then manipulates them against the few who actually have some balls.
He's a master manipulator, that's what makes him dangerous.

-Gunhead

Prozac the Robert · Post by **Prozac the Robert** » 2004-12-31 11:40am

There is another point that hasn't been discussed: the federation is not a galaxy wide super power. That means that the rebels could recruit outside help.

It also allows for somewhere for rebel planets to defect to, alllowing them protection from reprisals, unlike in star wars where nothing could protect you from the empires wrath.

Also, there may be no jedi, but if palpatine starts being a complete mental case when it comes to throwing his force power arround then there are entities that might stop him if they were worried, or appealed to in the right way.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-31 12:56pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Ah, so when it comes down to it we need to use writer's intent.

He's power mad, because it's in character...but waiting till the time is right, is a fluke.

Again strawmanning me. I never said that Palpatine would not wait for the right time, two weeks or thirty years later. I said that Palpatine would eventually show his true colours. Of course Palpatine would act in-character and eventually show his power hunger. What do we see of Palpatine's character? I am also not using writer's intent, I am using what we see of Palpatine's character and arguing he would do the same in the ST verse.

He orders the Nemodians to "kill them all" in TPM referencing to the Naboo.

He, like all dictators has to stand on a balcony at the end of SW:ATOC and see his huge army march in front of him in formation. This has historical precedent in human history -- dictators like seeing their power flaunted in front of them in large military parades.

Palpatine hides his power even when the Jedi Council is gone -- he does not go around in a TIE fighter or sit aboard the Death Star annihilating fleets of Republic ships. Although he could easily just have sat aboard the Death Star in ANH and made it invulnerable, he relies on his goons to do the dirty work revelling in the fact that he has millions of underlings to do his work when he could have done a lot of jobs himself.

And lets not forget TESB, where he cackles with glee while shocking Luke when he could have finished him off. And if you look closely enough in the leaked pictures of Anakin vs Dooku II, you'll see there is a slight smirk and grin on his face even though any compassonate man would never find such a duel amusing.

Yes, this is a man who likes power and needs power, who would rule by fear as soon as he had control of Starfleet and had the right pieces in place.

And yep...they are going to rebel...for what?

You'd be amazed what can happen in thirty years. You are jumping instantly to this thought that the Mighty Federation Warriors will of course be riled to fight, when he could very well have them groveling at him because he's institued better policies of peace and if he's collaberated for a war. They would hail him as a savior.

Sure. Palpatine was hailed as a savior at first, until his policies started becoming unbearable. Who said anything about Mighty Federation Warriors, if anything Starfleet is incompetent and Palpatine would have to spend years reforming it to his own personal terror force. A planet is going to leave the Federation, or at least help those who are actively fighting the Federation, if they no longer see a reason to stay in the Federation and are incensed by Palpatine's policies.

So far you've painted a one dimensional picture because in this scenario is a scenario of what would a smart man with powers of mind control do with the Federation. An organization that is such a dicotomy that it barely knows what the fuck the right and left hands do.

Mind control is a load of shit. So far I've seen examples that the Emperor can "mind control" a whole planet to forget the construction of a massive warship, and that the Emperor can go into the mind of his subordinates to check up on them. That doesn't mean that the Emperor can turn a person into a zombie that obeys his every command, or change a strong belief in a person. The difference is anagalous to the difference between the "controlled" and "charmed" status in D&D (and why not, Star Wars D20 is canon and the two statuses of mind control are qualitative not quantative measures of power). In the charmed status, a person thinks that you are his trusted friend and will go to great lengths to protect you, but would not stand by if you physically started harming him. If the charmer started attacking one of the charmed person's friends, the charmed would try to separate both of them as if they were both his good friends.

So, for example, Palpatine would be able to make people forget about a large warship being built because, "It is being built for my own protection, there is no reason for me to remember it."

Or, he would be able to check into the minds of his subordinates because, "I want to keep my superior officers informed."

But if Palpatine tried to change an ingrained belief like "Even though it is illogical to stay in the Federation when our representative is impotent, we should violate logic and stay" or the Andorians, "Even though I am extremely nationalistic I should stay in the Federation and give it resources for nothing now that our representative can't do jackshit", it would be more difficult since the target has a strong opposition to these thoughts.

This is supported by higher level canon when Anakin says that "Jedi Mind trick only works on the weak-willed." Sure Sith Mind Trick might be able to do more, but why should we assume Sith Mind Trick works fundamentally on a different way than Jedi Mind Trick? A strong-willed character or a character with deep beliefs would not be affected if he was not willing.

Once again...the man waited more then thirty years. More then enough time to replace those he wants in power, and make it look legal and binding to their eyes.

He has no opposition, no one that would suspect he's anything other then a non assuming politician, if he should go that route.

And I'm still waiting for him becoming mustache twirling villain since he now has no mortal enemy out there. Just 150 major planets of sheep needing a sheppard in his eyes.

He waited more than thirty years, he waited more than thirty years, he waited more than thirty years, who fucking cares. I never said he would not wait, nor that he would not maneuver the right people into the right places. Just that certain people would not agree, and that a rebellion would form.

If he has knowledge of The Force, he would be aware of The Balance prophecy and take steps to try and find this person to convert him, just like he did in SW.

The "Palpatine would stay benign and suck the lifeforce out of everybody" is retarded. Palpatine's character is such that he would reveal his true colours after having control of the military, he would rule by fear. He would disband the Federation Council, planets would no longer have representatives in the Federation and nationalistic or wise governments would begin funnelling resources into a rebellion. I've already shown that a single planet has the resources to threaten the Federation.

Brian

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-31 03:18pm

brian, it takes a long time for people to grow tired of a populat dictator. hitler monopolized the press, and the volk were just like, eh, whatever. they preferred not having freedom, including the freedom to starve.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-12-31 04:33pm

Bellator wrote:
You have to kill him. You have to kill all of his clones. You have to kill anyone in the immediate area that he might be able to possess. You have to do this dsespite the fact that he can create events that are probably in the vicinity of 1E28 joules(rough guess on the energy needed to kill an Eclipse), and can corrupt worlds like Risa so they amp his personal energies.
and God how I hate EU sith-wanking.

Sad. I expect someone to point out the fact that the energy of 17 billion people was required to give him this level of power, that it took an unknown number of years for him to set up the arrangement, and that killing him outside of his prepared life transfer area can fuck him over for years, and the best I get is 'I hate EU wanking'.

For corroboration of capability from the movies, Jedi Masters have been shown to retain personality for years after their deaths, and to travel interstellar distances in a short time. A less scrupulous master would theoretically be able to possess a body, especially if they are a clone specifically designed for the purpose, with no personality at home to resist.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-12-31 04:50pm

brianeyci wrote:
consequences wrote:Actually, without Jedi or equivalent, any reasonable rebellion doesn't have a white flag on a patch of green. or translated into english: hope

You have to kill him. You have to kill all of his clones. You have to kill anyone in the immediate area that he might be able to possess. You have to do this dsespite the fact that he can create events that are probably in the vicinity of 1E28 joules(rough guess on the energy needed to kill an Eclipse), and can corrupt worlds like Risa so they amp his personal energies.
See my points about balance in the Force. You can't have it both ways, if Palpatine has his force powers then there is The Force in the ST verse and The Force will attempt to balance itself out and create one or many people with enough skill to eventually defeat Palpatine.

Then there's the fact that no one in ST has ever even approached his capabilities at political scheming. Just reprogram all of the replicators to introduce happy drugs into the food supplies before you start the policy changes, and the rebellion never even gets off the ground.
On every single world? Two trillion people? And a lot of people eat non-replicator food, probably the majority of the Federation. Political "Scheming" is a soft skill that is hard to quantify, it is not necessarily true that since Palpatine can manipulate the Galactic Senate that he would be way better in the Federation.

You could also change the prefix codes on ships to give yourself master override, while allowing the captain to think that his prefix code is the final authority.
I've already responded to this point, look up or use F5 and search for Troi you'll find my rebuttal.

Brian

Palpatine set off a war where he was in command of both sides, and had both of them create an army without the other learning a thing until it was finished. He spent a decade or more setting up for this, without making any moves that gave away his intentions. All of the scheming seen in Star Trek has been pathetically shortsighted in comparison, and usually incompetent as well.

Your response is pathetic, and doesn't do service to a twelve year old wargamer's ability to plot, much less a Sith Lord.
Lets go through it step by step:
Step 1, Palpatine assumes power.
Step 2, Palpatine has handpicked people with authorisation change the nature of the prefix codes. As a result, the captain has override status that can be changed as the situation warrants, but Palpatine retains master override ability, which can only be altered by him.
Step 3, Palpatine institutes horrific despotic rule.
Step 4, Starfleet captain rebels, changes his prefix codes.
Step 5, Palpatine uses his override, vents ship to vacuum, has it autopilot back to nearest space dock.

Without a higher level of access than they possess, the Starfleet captains won't even be aware of the existence of security protocols above them. Preferably, as one of the first acts of his new order, he has all of the old ships scrapped, and has his override hardwired into all new construction. Since he arranged to have this done to all of the major combatants of the Imperial Navy, Starfleet's piddling construction rates should be trivial to make arrangements for.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-31 06:23pm

consequences wrote:Palpatine set off a war where he was in command of both sides, and had both of them create an army without the other learning a thing until it was finished. He spent a decade or more setting up for this, without making any moves that gave away his intentions. All of the scheming seen in Star Trek has been pathetically shortsighted in comparison, and usually incompetent as well.

We're not talking about the ability of Star Trek characters to scheme, we're talking about Palpatine.

Your response is pathetic, and doesn't do service to a twelve year old wargamer's ability to plot, much less a Sith Lord.
Lets go through it step by step:
Step 1, Palpatine assumes power.

Before he assumes power, he would want to build a popular base of support. This would take awhile, going between planets, sending out his message. He might ignore this step if he thinks that he can just go into Starfleet Command and take control, but with the backing of the people his plan will have more legitimacy and much less likelihood to fail. As well, since there are no "commercials" and transportation is awkwardly slow, it would probably take decades for him to build widespread support across the Federation. No problem for him.

Step 2, Palpatine has handpicked people with authorisation change the nature of the prefix codes. As a result, the captain has override status that can be changed as the situation warrants, but Palpatine retains master override ability, which can only be altered by him.

You assume that the Captian of a ship has no way to override a Prefix code. In ST:II, Khan manages to find the override. A case can be said that TNG is different, but why? Continuity friend. As well, where do you pull shit out of your ass that Starfleet Admirals have master overrides over ships? Or that even if Palpatine does change prefix codes, that a Captain does not have the physical hardware on his ship to change prefix codes hrm? Right you pull it out of your ass, a Starfleet Admiral has never demonstrated this ability. Install new hardware? Does Palpatine strike you as the kind of person to rely on a magic silver bullet like a "prefix code" that may or may not work? Look below for an example when the prefix code didn't work.

Step 3, Palpatine institutes horrific despotic rule.

No objection there.

Step 4, Starfleet captain rebels, changes his prefix codes.

Assuming a Captain does not realize it and disable any prefix codes.

Step 5, Palpatine uses his override, vents ship to vacuum, has it autopilot back to nearest space dock.

Why does Palpatine need to do this. Take the people home and execute them/torture them as traitors.

Without a higher level of access than they possess, the Starfleet captains won't even be aware of the existence of security protocols above them. Preferably, as one of the first acts of his new order, he has all of the old ships scrapped, and has his override hardwired into all new construction. Since he arranged to have this done to all of the major combatants of the Imperial Navy, Starfleet's piddling construction rates should be trivial to make arrangements for.

Oh yeah? How the hell did Khan override the prefix code then? The prefix code has been demonstrated as a way for Captains to lower the shields of an enemy ship, not as a way for Starfleet Admirals to take control of ships.

TNG The Wounded wrote: PICARD
Mister Worf... relay the prefix
codes of the Phoenix to the
Cardassian warship.

WORF
(stunned)
Sir, they'll be able to dismantle
its shields! The Phoenix won't
have a chance.

PICARD
I cannot allow Maxwell to
ambush that supply ship. Mister
Worf -- now.

Worf stares down at him, almost trembling in his
distress. Finally --

WORF
Yes, Captain.

He begins working the controls. Gul Macet's expression
is enigmatic, Riker's distressed. On Picard --
nothing, except perhaps, deep in his eyes, the anguish
of hard choices.

<snip>

DATA
The Phoenix is beginning evasive
maneuvers.
(beat)
It has positioned itself outside
the weapons range of the opposing
ship.
(beat)
The Phoenix has powered up with
both phasers and photon
torpedoes.
(beat)
The Phoenix is firing photon
torpedoes.

On the screen, the Phoenix has turned and is engaged
with the warship. The blips flutter a moment on the
screen... and then the Cardassian ship simply
disappears.

So in TNG, the Prefix code allows a Captain to lower the shields of an enemy ship, not to take control of it. You make many assumptions about the Prefix codes.

And your scheme is incredibly half-baked anyway, relying on a fucking silver bullet like a prefix code. What if it doesn't work, like the Phoenix versus Cardy ship example? If I were Palpatine, I would

1. Come into power as Fed Pres after getting popularity (even though the Fed Pres is elected by the Council not the people, having the people on your side is handy). This phase might take awhile, if he wants broad support throughout the Federation like he had in SW.

2. Go into a rapid militarization program extoling threats like The Borg, the Klingons, the Romulans. Fortify Earth, using the excuse the recent Dominion, Breen, Borg and so on invasions and the historical importance of Earth (V'Ger, Whale Proble, etc.). In the background increase tensions between humans and non-humans, blaming the aliens for the reasons why the Federation has stagnated for so long. In the foreground, pretend to be trying to keep the Federation together at all costs.

3. Appropriate resources from outlying worlds, preferably ones with little influence and say in the Federation for this militarization aka tax the worlds heavily. Create resentment and send out a guy like Dooku to lead the "rebels". Attempt to do peace with them and so on in the foreground, while escalating tensions in the background. Turn the Federation military into a competent fighting force by building many Defiant class ships and initiating a massive recruitment program.

4. When the civil war breaks out, declare emergency powers and disband the Federation Council. Use your mind influencing abilities to get a Jar Jar to give you emergency powers. By now Palpatine has long appointed Admirals and Captains in key positions to take over the reigns of power.

5. This is when Palpatine gets badass. Palpatine has long known that there will be a person born with great abilities to "bring Balance to the Force". With his emergency powers he has his redstormies search out every planet with special scanners looking for people with high midichlorin count. These people are never seen from again. Also Palpatine throws out any pretense of being a legitimate Federation President and does everything arbitrarily now that there is no pussy Federation Council in the way. He orders General Order 24 on the Vulcans and perhaps Betazed, as a signal to the rest of the Federation that he means business and to get rid of people who can figure out his true intent. He rules by fear.

Now the above scenario doesn't rely on a silver bullet "prefix code" that may or may not work and has never been demonstrated to work the way you want it in Star Trek. Also Palpatine did the above in SW more or less, so if we are talking about the same person this is probably what he will do. He will win, but there will be a rebellion.

Brian

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-12-31 08:32pm

brianeyci wrote:Does Palpatine strike you as the kind of person to rely on a magic silver bullet like a "prefix code" that may or may not work? Look below for an example when the prefix code didn't work.

Actually yes, however not that simple of a prefix code. Palpatine routinely used master control signals/codes to override commands. ie. All ISDs (ref. Thrawn Trilogy) and the World Devadtators (ref. Dark Empire I).

And lets not forget TESB, where he cackles with glee while shocking Luke when he could have finished him off. And if you look closely enough in the leaked pictures of Anakin vs Dooku II, you'll see there is a slight smirk and grin on his face even though any compassonate man would never find such a duel amusing.

Um yeah, that was RotJ, not ESB.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-31 09:02pm

Techno_Union wrote:Actually yes, however not that simple of a prefix code. Palpatine routinely used master control signals/codes to override commands. ie. All ISDs (ref. Thrawn Trilogy) and the World Devadtators (ref. Dark Empire I).

Very well. But Palpatine does not exclusively rely on prefix codes. As well Federation ships have not demonstrated that they can be taken over remotely by a prefix code or master override, only that their shields can be dropped, and when the prefix code is used the crew regains control somehow. After Palpatine takes over Starfleet he might use the master override idea, but I don't see him relying on it. He's a people person (lol), why not just maneuver people into key positions.

Um yeah, that was RotJ, not ESB.

Whops hard to tell the difference

*ducks*

Brian

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2005-01-01 01:58am

brianeyci wrote:
Step 2, Palpatine has handpicked people with authorisation change the nature of the prefix codes. As a result, the captain has override status that can be changed as the situation warrants, but Palpatine retains master override ability, which can only be altered by him.
You assume that the Captian of a ship has no way to override a Prefix code.

Irrelevant. When Palpatine already in power, what's stopping him from changing the override settings in order to make his the highest priority? Or altering them in such way so "from now own only the Emperor can override a ship"???

brianeyci wrote: In ST:II, Khan manages to find the override. A case can be said that TNG is different, but why? Continuity friend.

Hacking is a different story altogether, and it's exception instead of rule.

brianeyci wrote:
Techno_Union wrote:Actually yes, however not that simple of a prefix code. Palpatine routinely used master control signals/codes to override commands. ie. All ISDs (ref. Thrawn Trilogy) and the World Devadtators (ref. Dark Empire I).
Very well. But Palpatine does not exclusively rely on prefix codes. As well Federation ships have not demonstrated that they can be taken over remotely by a prefix code or master override, only that their shields can be dropped, and when the prefix code is used the crew regains control somehow. After Palpatine takes over Starfleet he might use the master override idea, but I don't see him relying on it.

No shit, Sherlock, unless we really believe someone as devious as Palpatine would gamble his entire throne on a single method like master code. But *please* explain why Palpatine would NOT using master code AS WELL AS OTHER METHODS to secure his power???

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-01-01 02:34pm

brianeyci wrote:
Praxis wrote:Uh...he did. Didn't you watch ANH? When Darth Vader announces that the Emperor has just disbanded the Imperial Senate?
Uh I don't know what you're trying to say. So we're in agreement, that the Emperor would disband the Federation Council the same as the Imperial Senate? If you are arguing that Palpatine would disband the Federation Council after he had "his pieces ready", then we are already in agreement. Once Palpatine has Starfleet under his control, and perhaps developed a competent equivalent of stormtroopers, he will "rule by fear" like Tarkin said, but rather than threaten them with a Death Star he will threaten them with General Order 24 or occupation of their planet with the redstormies.

I'm getting tired of you twisting my words. My point is, Palpatine would KEEP the Federation council until he had already been in power for a long time (he kept the council from the OR for TWO DECADES after he had been in power, after all, before disbanding it). Worlds would still believe they have a say until he had rewritten the Federation constitution. He would also make sure that most of the Federation believed he was a BENEVOLENT dictator, and the worlds would WANT to stay in the Federation.

Come on, the thought that anything other than colony worlds would rebel against Palpatine if he keeps the Federation council for awhile and treats everyone nice is silly. It'd be like one of the US states trying to leave. It could happen, but they are so integrated into the US that it'd be very difficult and very unlikely. Plus the US wouldn't be so happy. The core worlds would be integrated into the Federation's economy, and would bring all kinds of problems if they tried to leave.

FURTHERMORE, you don't just give up the Federations protection when you have Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians ready to snatch you up the moment you don't have protection.

He'd be able to directly read the minds of all the Admirals at SF, preventing anything large scale.
Okay. But the rebellion doesn't have to start at Starfleet Command, and wouldn't start at Starfleet Command. When Leyton takes over Earth, Sisko comments that it would be the outlying Federation assets that would rebel, not that Starfleet would be in an uproar about Leyton.

But Leyton would be taking over by force, rather than by subversion. And we're talking about minor assets rebelling, assets that would be threatened by other governments.

Even IF some colony worlds Rebel, Palpatine doesn't need a BDZ. All he needs to do is say, "All right, you're no longer under the Federations protection. I'll make sure I mention it to the Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians, I'm sure they'd love an extra planet."

So? He can have forces on each world that report to him the status. It's a LOT easier to maintain control over 150 worlds.
Palpatine would have to create these forces to hold ground from scratch, which was my initial point.

He already has an existing army, all he needs to do is improve them a bit.

Not at all. The reason the presidents authority was diminished is because he was a WUSS and the Admiral wanted to get rid of him, but if he declares martial law he can basicly do whatever he wants.
Because the President was a WUSS he didn't order Starfleet to stand down? Come on that is a stretch. If the President had any real authority over Starfleet he would have used it. Palpatine would have to build up the authority of the President somehow, probably through appealing to the masses and starting a "democratization" program, something he didn't need to do in SW.

HE ORDERED MARTIAL LAW, not Starfleet. Leyton CONVINCED HIM TO BACK STARFLEET. Why would he have ordered Starfleet to stand down?

Ahh, you're referring to Cardassian Prime. But Cardassia Prime is not an ordinary world, there are billions of people there. We're not talking about a colony world here.
And I'm not talking about a colony world either.

Yes, you are. You're talking about colony worlds rebelling. You just said above it would be the 'outlying assets' that rebel, and in your previous post that the 'colony worlds' would start leaving.

Main Site wrote:A strict interpretation of this quote would be that the Federation has a sum total of roughly 150 planets under its direct control, including each and every insignificant outpost or low-population colony in its entire territory. However, this is doubtful. It is more likely that Picard is referring only to major planets. We know that the Federation is replete with systems that contain only a few hundred or few thousand colonists, and it is highly doubtful that Picard was including all of those insignificant systems when he stated his figure of 150 planets. We can conclude that the Federation probably has hundreds or perhaps even thousands of small colonies and outposts scattered throughout its territory, with roughly 150 planets that have populations numbering in the billions.
So 150 planets with populations in the billions. Plus Starfleet has been said to have two billion personnel total, and the entire Federation has a lower limit of 1 trillion total population with a reasonable estimate being two trillion population. If one or two or three or five or twenty or fifty of these worlds left the Federation (and why the hell wouldn't they after Palpatine disbanded the Federation Council), they would pose a problem for Palpatine if they covertly started building a fleet. There is also nothing special about Cardassia Prime, if anything Cardassia Prime is a shithole with little resources which fueled the Cardassian war with the Federation decades earlier. And saying that "Oh, Palpatine would be smart enough to realize not to do this until he had all the pieces in place"... come on, how many pieces can he have in place, once he has Starfleet under his control and perhaps a competent ground force he will show his true colours just like he did in SW and deal ruthlessly with those who dissent. And there is a lot of dissent in the Federation -- it took a direct threat to their worlds for the Federation council to approve increasing military resources during the Dominion war, and Earth was never fortified despite humans having a supposed special status in the Federation and Earth being attacked by every badass in the galaxy.

Are you kidding? Cardassia Prime has all the Dominion shipyards (proven to have faster building capacity than Federation ones) and the entire Dominion fleet and the Cardassian shipyards, and enough defenses to possibly defeat the combined Federation/Klingon/Romulan/Cardassian forces attacking! Thats not a few rebelling colony worlds, there.

And BTW, the entire Federation has a lower population than Coruscant.

There was no open rebellion by any worlds in the Empire until around the time of ROTJ, because they KNEW the Emperor would punish them. Some showed support, donated supplies and ships, but they never outright supported a rebellion.

Furthermore, he doesn't always BDZ worlds, you know. Look at Tanaab. He punished the people, but didn't kill them.
That is fucking semantics. If worlds support a movement to overthrow Palpatine, then they are part of the Rebellion. Open Rebellion is stupid, even ST ships in a fleet can destroy all life on a planet and you wouldn't want to incur the wrath of a General Order 24 or occupation by redstormies. Rebellion would happen, obviously covertly at first.

I'm not saying that Palpatine would General Order 24 every single world. I'm saying that Palpatine would act in character and order the burning of one world, to bring others in line with fear. Other worlds that rebelled openly (if they dared) would probably be occupied by redstormies.

Brian

WHY would Rebellion happen? You're just saying that people will rebel because Palpatine is an evil bugger. Palpatine will keep the Federation council for a few decades and suck up, treat everyone nicely, make promises of removing threats, etc. He'll probably go on a reign of conquest and wipe out the Cardies and Romulans as well. He'll APPEASE the people.

Palpatine never BDZ's worlds because of a few supporters, btw. Alderaan was a sort of exception, and it was literally RULED by Rebels- in fact, the ruler of Alderaan was actually outspoken against Palpatine, and most of the populace was against him.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-01-01 02:34pm

brianeyci wrote:To bring the debate back into focus, here is what I see the claim is so far.

1. Palpatine would have no problem taking over the Federation, because the Federation is controlled and centralized anyway.

2. Palpatine wouldn't have to BDZ or occupy any planets, because he could just covertly suck the life force out of everybody and they would die happy.

3. Palpatine would have it easier than in SW, because in SW there was the Jedi Council and there are no Jedi in ST.

Responses,

1. Palpatine would have no problem taking over Starfleet, but taking over the Federation is a different matter. Once he went on his power trip and disbanded the Federation Council, worlds would no longer have a voice in the Federation and why stay in the Federation or remain sympathetic to it if you had no say in how it was run? And Palpatine would disband the Federation Council -- he did it in SW and it is in-character for him to do so in the ST verse.

2. Palpatine would do General Order 24's and occupy planets with redstormies. Why would he do that if he could just mind control everybody and manipulate people behind the scenes? Because it is in-character for him to do so. As Tarkin mentioned, the Empire planned to "rule by fear", and Palpatine would rule by fear as well. Any attempt to say he would not and just covertly suck the life force out of everybody is retarded given that in-character Palpatine is a power hungry egomaniac and wouldn't tolerate dissent. We talk about Palpatine we talk about ruling by fear.

3. News flash, the Jedi were ineffective in preventing Palpatine's plans from coming to fruition. Just because there are no Jedi in the ST verse it does not mean that Palpatine would have it any easier. Have you ever considered that Palpatine just effortlessly caught all the Jedi Masters with their pants down? Or that Palpatine spent miniscule effort, or no effort at all in tricking Yoda and the entire Jedi Council? I know people don't like to think of good old Yoda being a retard and like to say that Palpatine was spending tremendous effort concealing himself, but why should that be the case? Palpatine tricked the Jedi Council totally, and unless you are able to quantify how powerful the Jedi Council was relative to Palpatine in a way that says Palpatine expended a lot of effort concealing himself, the Jedi Council or the lack of one in the ST verse is a non sequitur.

Brian

You're simplying the arguements and just picking and choosing the worst ones

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-01-01 03:58pm

Its important to realise that the Republic was composed of various groups, with various needs and values, and relative independence. Sid manipulated them all, got what he wanted, and largely no one ever noticed what was going on until decades later.

The Federation is, by comparison, politically monotonous, already reasonably oppressive, and extremely centralised. Anyone with political clout in the Fed is VERY powerful, given these factors; Sids MO will be effective.

The FedGov also controls the ONLY LONG RANGE COMMUNICATION NETWORK IN EXISTENCE, and the Government can HIDE KNOWLEDGE OF PLANETWIDE PLAGUES. So go fuck yourself, Brian; noone would EVER hear anything good about the rebellion, everyone would hate them because they'd be (by necessity) conducting terrorist actions, attacking Fed citizens, etc, and would never drum up legitimacy.

There needs to be an organised political opposition to conduct a wide-ranging insurgency; a few captains and rogue planets attacking Starfleet and destroying installations is hardly a grass-roots movement. Indeed, since UP is such a powerful shipyard, and 'one planetzor can threaten the Fedzor', the rogues can't win anyway because Cardassia was a threat. Doesn't that logic suck, BRIAN?

If Sid became President (or influenced the President), he could slowly (ref all of SW) move attitudes, politics and industry to a situation where a crisis (started/invited/paid for by him in some other persona) causes him to get additional powers and expand the tools of his control, likely the military and plantary govenors. Noones going to rebel against THAT, you rube, and afterwards its too late, because there's now a NEW military that ISN'T lame 'explorer' SF, would doubtless have better, more warlike and modern ships, more tactically trained officers, be distributed around areas of likely rebellion, and answerable in some way only to him. He might even MOTHBALL existing SF as new builds come online, thus removing any and all military strength for a rebellion.

You're just being anal. He's shown to move slowly, he's shown to work both sides, the rebellion is arguably PART OF HIS FUCKING PLAN in SW, the continued motivation for his control/superweapons/whatever. No untrained Force sensitive would escape the Emperors purges... or did you forget the 'kill all threats to my magic rule of evil' action item on his plan?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-01-01 04:42pm

Stark wrote: If Sid became President (or influenced the President), he could slowly (ref all of SW) move attitudes, politics and industry to a situation where a crisis (started/invited/paid for by him in some other persona) causes him to get additional powers and expand the tools of his control, likely the military and plantary govenors. Noones going to rebel against THAT, you rube, and afterwards its too late, because there's now a NEW military that ISN'T lame 'explorer' SF, would doubtless have better, more warlike and modern ships, more tactically trained officers, be distributed around areas of likely rebellion, and answerable in some way only to him. He might even MOTHBALL existing SF as new builds come online, thus removing any and all military strength for a rebellion.

Okay, slightly off the thing we're arguing about (I fully 100% agree with you, and you made excellent points, btw). How do you think he'd do this?

My guesses:
1) Supply the remnants of the Cardassians with weapons, then expose that they have weapons, try to take away the weapons (forcing the Cardies to defend them), starting another war.
2) Perform some sort of sneak attack on the Dominion and remove everyone involved, causing the Dominion to retailiate. Make it appear that the Dominion is breaking the treaty, and militarize the Federation to stop them.
3) Wait till the Klingons declare war on someone, and join in trying to help your 'allies'.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-01-01 06:43pm

I think he'd have to manufacture an extremely serious threat - one to individual citizens, the status quo, and the galaxy(quadrant)-at-large. The Clone War threatened to turn the entire galaxy into a squabbling mess, destroy milennia of stability and kill quadrillions of people, after all. Sid is prepared to risk total destruction of everything to achieve his goals.

With this in mind, nothing small-scale would suit. If his goal is limited to the Fed for first-stage for some reason, I imagine he'd manipulate major regional powers (the KFR triangle, for instance) into a confrontation and control the situation to ensure all three are crippled so much that he can gain power and support by merely assisting the starving/defenceless/homeless refugees. He doesn't even have to be FedPrez for this.

Ironically I think it would be very easy, after study, to start a war. Create a bit of tension, kill Picard, quadrant collapses. The Klingons and Romulans are trivial to bring into war, as DS9 shows. A Sith Lord should have it easier than a Cardassian Tailor, after all. I assume he'll use his intemidiaries as he does in SW, so his Romulan, Federation and Klingon clients will do most of the work for him, leaving him unstained by their methods. Given the ease with which the Founders totally misled the AQ intelligence agencies, they won't provide any resistance to Sid's moves.

However, I think he'd take at least a decade to change AQ attitudes and relationships before putting anything into play. I think the level of destruction is important - he needs a drawn-out war that grinds everybody down with a massive bodycount. Without preparation it'll be over too soon; as we see in ST, short wars don't stir up enough unrest for him to take advantage of, nor create a large enough clientbase for him. Any of your suggestions would work with enough pre-game buildup to ensure the war goes on long enough.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-01-01 10:55pm

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Irrelevant. When Palpatine already in power, what's stopping him from changing the override settings in order to make his the highest priority? Or altering them in such way so "from now own only the Emperor can override a ship"???

Because Federation ships have a manual override that can override any attempt to control the ship remotely. That is what Khan looked for. If there was no manual override, Khan would never have been able to regain control of his shields UNLESS he was able to hack and change it, which is what you ASSUME with your next point without any evidence. Which is also retarded, since ADMIRAL KIRK'S OVERRIDE would override anything by your logic, and Khan was able to disable it, wasn't he?

brianeyci wrote:Hacking is a different story altogether, and it's exception instead of rule.

Do you think Khan fucking hacked the prefix code? He was looking for a manual override. Saying that Khan hacked the prefix code is like saying he called on The Force to change the prefix code, there's no evidence of any fucking hacking, but there is evidence of Khan frantically looking for a manual override.

No shit, Sherlock, unless we really believe someone as devious as Palpatine would gamble his entire throne on a single method like master code. But *please* explain why Palpatine would NOT using master code AS WELL AS OTHER METHODS to secure his power???

I don't disagree with that, but consequences post accused me of having less scheming ability than a twelve year old wargamer, when ironically it was he who relied on a single silver bullet for Palpatine to assume power. Read the fucking response twit, it is consequences who says Palpatine would gamble his entire throne on a Prefix Code, not me. Of course Palpatine would use every resource at his disposal including override codes, but the prefix code idea is not as clear cut as you would like to think. I've already shown that Prefix Codes have only been shown to operate a ship's shields. He would use them, but not rely on them.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-01-01 11:54pm

Praxis wrote:I'm getting tired of you twisting my words. My point is, Palpatine would KEEP the Federation council until he had already been in power for a long time (he kept the council from the OR for TWO DECADES after he had been in power, after all, before disbanding it). Worlds would still believe they have a say until he had rewritten the Federation constitution. He would also make sure that most of the Federation believed he was a BENEVOLENT dictator, and the worlds would WANT to stay in the Federation.

Worlds who no longer have representatives in a Federation Council would have no reason to be part of the Federation. Palpatine would disband the Federation Council. Of course Palpatine would scheme and make it look as legitimate as possible, probably with an emergency during which he would assume emergency powers like in SW and temporarily close the Council. But some would not like it, and that would be the grassroots beginning of the Rebellion.

And why would he disband the Council? Because it is in-character for him to do so. Palpatine would not stand for any "Federation Council", even a largely impotent one, because even the existence of such a Council implies that Palpatine is not the supreme ruler. There must be no doubt in Palpatine and everybody's mind that the head honcho is Palpatine, and as long as the Federation Council exists people will think that it has power. Image is everything, especially to a megalomaniac. In-character evidence? He proclaims himself as fucking Emperor in SW and disbands the fucking Republic Senate. The Federation Council gives the same image of the Senate, that of being a large body of representatives from many planets.

Come on, the thought that anything other than colony worlds would rebel against Palpatine if he keeps the Federation council for awhile and treats everyone nice is silly. It'd be like one of the US states trying to leave. It could happen, but they are so integrated into the US that it'd be very difficult and very unlikely. Plus the US wouldn't be so happy. The core worlds would be integrated into the Federation's economy, and would bring all kinds of problems if they tried to leave.

Worlds are integrated into the Federation? Planets are able to be self-sufficient, example the planet you're on right now. Palpatine would disband the Federation Council eventually, and more importantly worlds would have less and less say in their own affairs. And your analogy for the United States and States breaking away doesn't work. Planets could break away and still be self-sufficient unlike states, and not all planets have the same historical connection to Earth that the Vulcans have. In fact, planets will have a diverse history and traditions. Integration my ass, by Occam's Razor planets support the Federation (Earth) by giving it resources, a loose military alliance, unless there is evidence otherwise.

FURTHERMORE, you don't just give up the Federations protection when you have Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians ready to snatch you up the moment you don't have protection.

Despite writer's intentions of the Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians being bloodthirsty human killers, joining the Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians willlingly might not be such a bad thing. And, NOT EVERYBODY IS HUMAN. We're not talking about Earth breaking away, we're talking about aliens breaking away, and all of the above may not harbour such a hatred as for humans. If a planet can negotiate a better arrangement with the Romulans for protection for example, rather than stay in the Federation especially when Palpatine starts violating a planet's sovereign rights, the Romulans or the Klingons or even the Cardassians might be a good alternative.

But Leyton would be taking over by force, rather than by subversion. And we're talking about minor assets rebelling, assets that would be threatened by other governments.

Even IF some colony worlds Rebel, Palpatine doesn't need a BDZ. All he needs to do is say, "All right, you're no longer under the Federations protection. I'll make sure I mention it to the Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians, I'm sure they'd love an extra planet."

What makes you think that planets would not want to negotiate a protection arrangement with the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassians, especially if the Federation protection arrangement becomes less desirable?

He already has an existing army, all he needs to do is improve them a bit.

No. Federation ground troops have never numbered in more than the tens of thousands, Palpatine will need to have a force numbering in the millions to occupy planets he doesn't like. Plus, Palpatine will want fanatically loyal soldiers to the point they obey orders and lose to Ewoks -- because that is in-character for him. Palpatine could ass-fuck a stormtrooper and he wouldn't flinch, and Palpatine will want that kind of control over his new elite force.

HE ORDERED MARTIAL LAW, not Starfleet. Leyton CONVINCED HIM TO BACK STARFLEET. Why would he have ordered Starfleet to stand down?

Look, I don't know how much boneheaded you can get. After martial law is imposed, Leyton is confident that he can replace the President and impose a military dictatorship. Why is he so confident if the President is a Commander in Chief and Starfleet listens to him? Exactly because the President doesn't directly command Starfleet, the President commands the Admirals who command Starfleet. Obviously Palpatine would replace Federation Admirals with his own hand-picked elite, but that's not what I am arguing. I am arguing that he would want to remove this extra layer, and make Starfleet accountable to himself alone. Which means drastic changes in the way Starfleet is run. Their oaths will probably be rewritten to swear loyalty to the President himself.

Yes, you are. You're talking about colony worlds rebelling. You just said above it would be the 'outlying assets' that rebel, and in your previous post that the 'colony worlds' would start leaving.

Fine, I revise my point then. When I said "colony" I really meant any world not being Earth. Outlying assets don't have to be colony worlds, just worlds distant from the core of the Federation.

Are you kidding? Cardassia Prime has all the Dominion shipyards (proven to have faster building capacity than Federation ones) and the entire Dominion fleet and the Cardassian shipyards, and enough defenses to possibly defeat the combined Federation/Klingon/Romulan/Cardassian forces attacking! Thats not a few rebelling colony worlds, there.

That is not the point. The point is that a single planet has the resources to build ships that threaten the Federation. If you accept that, then you accept the point that Palpatine would want to control these resources. Fast building shipyards are an intangible, what if a planet starts covertly building Defiants which have been demonstrated to be able to be constructed by rebels without proper spacedock facilities in six months? Are you one of those who say that all ship building facilities are under Federation control? Give me a break, a common interface system (LCARS) proves nothing, and by Occam's Razor individual planets would maintain control of their own spaceyards.

And BTW, the entire Federation has a lower population than Coruscant.

Again irrelevant. You keep bringing up points like "the Federation is much smaller than the Empire therefore Palpatine would easily take over the Federation", but the connection is just not there. A bigger Federation may make for a more complex plan, but does not necessarily make it any harder for Palpatine to take control. A smaller Federation may make for a simpler plan, but again does not make it any easier for Palpatine to take control. Palpatine would likely do the exact same thing he did in SW, pit enemies against each other, and by Occam's Razor Palpatine wouldn't have any more or less problems in the Federation than in the Empire. How do you know he doesn't easily influence the minds of 150 Council members as easily as all the representatives in the Galactic Senate? If you say the Federation will be taken over by Palpatine, you have no argument from me there. If you say the Federation will be more easily taken over than the Empire, then there is a problem because size doesn't necessarily matter in political scheming.

WHY would Rebellion happen? You're just saying that people will rebel because Palpatine is an evil bugger. Palpatine will keep the Federation council for a few decades and suck up, treat everyone nicely, make promises of removing threats, etc. He'll probably go on a reign of conquest and wipe out the Cardies and Romulans as well. He'll APPEASE the people.

Palpatine never BDZ's worlds because of a few supporters, btw. Alderaan was a sort of exception, and it was literally RULED by Rebels- in fact, the ruler of Alderaan was actually outspoken against Palpatine, and most of the populace was against him.

Palpatine will appease the people, but only to a point. When he has control of the military and has the right people in place, he will show his true visage. It is in-character for him to start ruling by fear, and it is in-character for him to start stomping his foot by planting redstormies on planets to search for people with high midichlorin count, and it is in character for him to start treating people badly. Palpatine enjoys fear and pain, or have you forgotten what being a follower of the Dark Side really means? He won't appease if there is a way to crush, he would prefer crushing especially when he has all the pieces in place and there is little opposition. The idea that Palpatine would stay a kindly old man is absurd. And do not strawman me by saying that I'm saying that Palpatine would do it early before he does not have the plan ready. I'm saying that once Palpatine is ready, he will act like a Sith.

And I use "rebellion" in the loosest possible sense of the word -- that a large number of people will oppose Palpatine who have the assets to threaten his grip on power. It doesn't necessarily have to be a large rebellion, or an organized rebellion. I would for example consider what is happening against US troops in Iraq a kind of "rebellion" in my loose use of the word, even though they're probably disorganized attacks by individual cells who just have a beef with the US. What I'm really pissed off about is people who think that there will be no opposition to Palpatine at all, even though we know that Palpatine will eventually start acting like the good Sith he is.

Brian