phasers and lightsabers

[brianeyci]

Also the argument that a genetically engineered soldier/parasite host can resist NDF effects and therefore a Jedi can resist NDF effects because "Jedi are uber and better than any genetically engineered soldier/parasite host" is a non sequitur. Like what was mentioned before about quantification, this hypothesis lacks any quantification whatsoever, and I can show that a conical phaser widebeam works from between 6" - 6' 1" which a Jedi cannot deflect.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Brian, what particular part of 'the vast majority of a widebeam never hits the target in the first place' is beyond you?

I understand that. But think about it -- Sisko needed to NDF rock, and since rock is far more dense than human flesh, there had to be more NDF particles delivered on target to NDF the rock than stun a man.

Brian

[Trekdestroyer]

Brian, what particular part of 'the vast majority of a widebeam never hits the target in the first place' is beyond you?

That's the idea. It allows you to shoot with your eyes closed and still have a hope of hitting the target. BUT remember, phasers can heat up rocks for your backyard sauna!( )

[Lord Revan]

Also the argument that a genetically engineered soldier/parasite host can resist NDF effects and therefore a Jedi can resist NDF effects because "Jedi are uber and better than any genetically engineered soldier/parasite host" is a non sequitur. Like what was mentioned before about quantification, this hypothesis lacks any quantification whatsoever, and I can show that a conical phaser widebeam works from between 6" - 6' 1" which a Jedi cannot deflect.

Brian

there's limits how gene engineering or hormon boost in both cases were probaly talking about just more pain resistant humans (in the parasite case we know were talking about that (and too much adrenaline in your body can kill)). And Jedi are boosted human (or aliens).

[Batman]

Brian, what particular part of 'the vast majority of a widebeam never hits the target in the first place' is beyond you?

I understand that. But think about it -- Sisko needed to NDF rock, and since rock is far more dense than human flesh, there had to be more NDF particles delivered on target to NDF the rock than stun a man.

As NDF is a chain reaction, no. Since when does effectiveness of stun depend on density? Also note that stun completely fails to exhibit NDF effects so assuming they even work on the same principle is dubious. Furthermore, the entirety of that 'wide'beam hit the rock. The vast majority of a stun widebeam does NOT hit the target.

[Robert Walper]

Darkstar thought and probably still thinks that a widebeam phaser could bring down a jedi. That is obviously incorrecet considering that by the time the guy pulls the trigger/presses the button, the guy will be sliced into sushi.

Like all the opponents Jedi went against who never had a chance to fire off a shot? Oh wait...

The primary arguement I'm not touching, but wanking about how a phaser user won't have time to get off a shot or two is utter bullshit.

[Isolder74]

Darkstar thought and probably still thinks that a widebeam phaser could bring down a jedi. That is obviously incorrecet considering that by the time the guy pulls the trigger/presses the button, the guy will be sliced into sushi.

Like all the opponents Jedi went against who never had a chance to fire off a shot? Oh wait...

The primary arguement I'm not touching, but wanking about how a phaser user won't have time to get off a shot or two is utter bullshit.

The proble with Wide beam phaser use is that it still allows the jedi or oppenent the option of ducking to avoid the attack. Then there is the Jedi's aqbility to statch a weapon with the force out of the user's hands, as demonstrated by vader, so if the jedi can duck long enought to do so the wide beam paser has limited utility.

Besides if it was so useful a tactic then why is it not used more often? I guess it might rapidly empty the Phasers power cell to do so hence why it is not used on a general basis.

[Vympel]

Also, if you want to argue that absence of proof does not mean proof of absence, and perhaps Jedi can deflect blaster bolts from large vehicles like AT-ST/AT-AT's and that we've just not seen it

Luke deflected the blasts from an AT-ATs main cannons in a ground battle in Dark Empire. That "RPG ruling" means precisely dick.

[Jaepheth]

Well, I could go on, but I have no intentions of hijacking the thread.

A tad late for that. I was asking what you guys thought would happen when a phaser beam strikes a saber blade.

But if y'all want to debate widebeams vs. jedi, go ahead.

One thing I was wondering, has there ever been an example of a phaser firing a widebeam kill shot? or is it stun only? I guess if Sisko used it to cut a hole in rock, that'd kill someone.

[Howedar]

Q: Can a Jedi Deflect (attack) the bolt from a speeder bike? How about an AT-ST? An AT-AT? A starfighter? The turbolaser from a Star Destroyer? The blast from the Death Star? Just what is the upper limit for a Jedi's Deflect ability?

A: I think we might have been more clear about the limitations of deflection in the original core rulebook, but it's accepted that a Jedi cannot use Deflect against anything larger than personal weapons -- so starships and battle stations are out of the question. Still, we saw Qui-Gon Jinn use Deflect (defense) and Deflect (attack) against the STAPs in The Phantom Menace, so clearly vehicle weapons can be Deflected, as well.

So, unless something else contradicts this (IIRC we never see Luke deflecting a vehicle blaster bolt for example), this is canon. So the fattest blaster bolt that a Jedi can deflect is the fattest blaster bolt seen on screen as a "personal weapon". Needless to say, a phaser widebeam with a 4' radius is wider than this.

So, it all comes down to whether Jedi would be able to resist the stun setting on a phaser. Since you can't fucking quantify a Jedi's resistance to stun, widebeam taking down a Jedi/Sith hypothesis stands.

Brian

Please provide evidence that the width of a large beam is what prevents lightsaber deflection, as opposed to (say) the raw power of the beam.

Oh wait, what's that? You just made that up without thinking about it? Oh damn, I'm shocked.

[Meest]

Luke deflected the blasts from an AT-ATs main cannons in a ground battle in Dark Empire. That "RPG ruling" means precisely dick.

Gave me a good reason to dust off my Dark Empire TPB

A 6' 1" diameter shot, or if you want to be nitpicky a 6" diameter shot, is something Jedi/Sith have never deflected, and from canon they can't.

As mentioned before Anakin dodged a sonic pulse that looked to be a few feet in diameter. Jedi in the arena we're hit with artillery size/level sonic blasts that were much bigger, but that was during a hugely outnumbered battle, compared to Anakin who casually rolled from his attacker 1on1(+).
Regardless if it can be deflected, it can easily be dealt with making it a non-issue in the effectiveness of widebeam against Jedi.

[Vympel]

I don't see why anyone uses the Arena at all- it's a situation so atypical and so unlikely to be re-produced in any remotely plausible "vs" battle situation as to be utterly irrelevant.

[Robert Walper]

The proble with Wide beam phaser use is that it still allows the jedi or oppenent the option of ducking to avoid the attack.

ie: shot fired.

Then there is the Jedi's aqbility to statch a weapon with the force out of the user's hands, as demonstrated by vader,

ie: multiple shots fired.

so if the jedi can duck long enought to do so the wide beam paser has limited utility.

Besides if it was so useful a tactic then why is it not used more often? I guess it might rapidly empty the Phasers power cell to do so hence why it is not used on a general basis.

I was addressing the bullshit claim that the phaser user "won't have time to press the fire button before becoming sushi". Whether it does them any good is beside the point.

[brianeyci]

Okay. The ammunition argument was stupid. Like Batman and Lord Revan pointed out, the number of particles in NDF has nothing to do with how much resistance that a person has to stun. Why? Because, with the geometry (which I so conveniently didn't understand), the NDF particles per centimeter cubed would be incredibly less than a single shot. Yet, we've seen NDFing of many people at once.

Crown, the following is for you. I thought about it hard, and you CAN quantify that a continuous beam would be more effective than a blaster bolt. I will do so now.

We ignore accuracy for this proof. Therefore, the unit is the minimum number of phaser shots necessary to take down a Jedi. As well, we suppose that a Jedi will not move. In reality, a trained force-sensitive would obviously move around, but they move around with blasters too. Let's take untrained force sensitive Luke in ANH for example for an absolute minimum number of shots required to take down a Jedi. This is a ridiculous minimum, as Yoda and other trained Jedis would move around and do backflips, etc, but the proof is to show that a continuous beam in general is more effective than short beams against Jedis.

I was thinking of diagrams, but I'm sick so I don't feel like doodling in paint and uploading it to my webspace. SD.net are intelligent people anyway, you should be able to figure out without diagrams (although diagrams certainly would make my point clearer).

Use arbitrary constants l for length of a phaser beam, t for time of a phaser beam to reach its target. Suppose the following simplified situation. Three redshirts fire at Luke, and he does not move at all and attempts to deflect the phaser beams. Suppose the three redshirts fire at the same time, and therefore the phaser beams arrive at Luke's maximum deflection range at the same time. Take three fixed points, a b and c, for the leading edge of the phaser beams. Suppose that the redshirts fired so that if you construct vectors ab and ac, that they form a basis for a plane. In other words, you cannot draw a straight line between three points oriented in a certain way (trivial, put three points on a piece of paper randomly if you need proof). Now, create another arbitrary constant x. This represents the remaining distance that all three phaser beams have to travel to hit Luke. Now here comes the fun part. The assumption is that "Jedi would be able to deflect phaser beams back and kill instantly" is absurd. Why? Because fucking phaser beams don't travel at c! Since phaser beams don't travel at c, 2t > t, 2t being the time it takes for the beam to travel to the Jedi and back. Create the constant w = l/v, w being the "weakness" time a Jedi has to deflect the continuous beam. This is justified like this -- say you have a continuous beam weapon. If Luke deflects part of a continuous beam weapon, the rest of the beam will head towards him, so for full deflection Luke must keep the lightsaber on the beam for w seconds. Now, since a lightsaber is a straight line and can only intersect two of the three points the way we constructed it, the third phaser beam slips through if w < t, or if the two deflected phaser shots do not kill their targets so that the continuous beam stops and the Jedi can deflect the third beam. Which is true, since t > (x/v) since (l-x)/t < l/t, or in other words the time it takes for the phaser shot to head back towards a target is more than the time it takes for a phaser shot to head towards it target from distance x. For blaster bolts, this "weakness" period is at a minimum, since the length of a blaster bolt is trivial. Only with many, many blaster bolts can the weakness period be exploited. For a continuous beam weapon, w becomes as large as d, or the arbitrary distance between a Jedi and the firing redshirts, meaning w = t. Given that phasers travel very slowly in some cases, t can be an eternity.

Therefore, a continuous beam weapon is more effective against Jedi theoretically. The lower limit then would be three phaser shots to kill an untrained force sensitive who doesn't know how to use a lightsaber and doesn't move. What is the upper limit? Well, we see Yoda in the ROTS trailer backing off into ship defensively. When ROTS comes out, I highly suspect that there will be several hundred clone troopers pointing their guns at Yoda. We could also see Yoda walking back into the ship because he realizes that Palpatine is more powerful and he's on the defensive, but if Yoda was given a chance at full power I don't see why he would not fight Palpatine. Since a continuous beam shot is more effective than a blaster bolt, then this will be the upper limit of number of phaser shots necessary to take out a Jedi/Sith if I am correct about the scene.

Again I am not saying that continuous beams would be able to own Jedi. With precog and fast reflexes, Jedi could dodge and kill many redshirts especially in tight confined spaces where not all the redshirts can fire at once. But in general, I've shown that continuous beams are more effective against Jedi than blaster bolts. As well, an argument can be made that the Feds use Type-IIIb pulse rifles now and rarely use their Type-II's except when Type-III's are disarmed, but this proof is just to show that in general continuous beam is more effective against Jedi than short beam.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

And Crown asked for proof in regards in terms of energy and speed. As in Joule and Meters/second.

Not a diagrams to go if the Jedi stood cold still and didn't move.

And once again...your upper and lower limits are proof of woeful use. You do understand why if someone goes a ten clonetroopers is a low end for a Jedi?

Because they are referring to that the Clonetrooper's gun can have speeds in excess of 400m/s bolts of energy and a Jedi's reaction has shown to barely take that.

Brain learn, because you are butchering more logical and scientific notions as you try to make your point.

[Howedar]

Because they are referring to that the Clonetrooper's gun can have speeds in excess of 400m/s bolts of energy and a Jedi's reaction has shown to barely take that.

And, since they are bolts, a Jedi can spend much less time per shot deflecting than a beam.

[Ghost Rider]

Because they are referring to that the Clonetrooper's gun can have speeds in excess of 400m/s bolts of energy and a Jedi's reaction has shown to barely take that.

And, since they are bolts, a Jedi can spend much less time per shot deflecting than a beam.

That I can understand, my point was that without presenting anything of speed...what are we really to gauge here?

I mean...can a Jedi deflect a beam of energy and if so back to the weilder?

Pure speculation, it likely given they have shown some energy manipulation of the sort with the lightsaber.

How many people would it need to overtake the Jedi with said weapon. If we have no idea of what speeds this projectile goes at(amongst other things), we could say one to a million and everyone's guess would be as silly as the next.

[brianeyci]

And Crown asked for proof in regards in terms of energy and speed. As in Joule and Meters/second.

That's why I used arbitrary constants for the proof, length velocity and so on are in meters per second and meters. I didn't deal with energy, because frankly if we suppose that a Jedi's energy deflection ability is the only thing in question, phaser shots use 0.05 MJ of energy and even a phaser on kill would not scratch a Jedi. This assumes that Jedi cannot just harmlessly walk through phasers. Big assumption, but without it the discussion might as well be dead. We know that NDF doesn't rely on DET, so even if small amounts of NDF particles "leak" through it might start the chain reaction. I don't buy the assumption that just because Jedi can absorb thermal, blaster and Force energy, that it he can absorb NDF particles just as easily, because there's no way to quantify the NDF particles.

A way around the 0.05 MJ problem is to consider that maybe phasers can emit more energy than this. The 0.05 MJ figure was from Geordi and Data testing a phaser rifle, in operation a normal phaser may emit far more energy. If we take the 0.05 MJ figure, and apply it to Siege of AR-559 for example, soldier giving Ezrai a few energy clips doesn't make sense at all. If a hand phaser has 4.7 MJ capacity, then a hand phaser has near a hundred shots, and a phaser rifle with lets say twice the ammunition has two hundred shots! Obviously then, giving Ezrai a few clips and Sisko and Co. worrying about ammunition running out doesn't make sense. Take a reasonable clip size, lets say 20 shots, and a 9.7 MJ capacity for phaser rifles, and we get around .5 MJ. Of course, like Batman reminded me of, phasers are not DET weapons, so energy consumption is irrelevant. How many NDF particles are generated by 1 J, and how many NDF particles hitting a target is necessary to stun/kill someone? Without this information, it is impossible to use the energy argument because phasers aren't DET. Therefore, the argument defaults to the norm, that phasers set on kill can kill a Jedi if it hits, since I have examples of phaser shots killing, and there is no way to quantify the kill setting on a phaser in relation with a Jedi's energy absorbition ability.

Not a diagrams to go if the Jedi stood cold still and didn't move.

That's why I said it was a really simplified case, with a "Jedi" (not really a Jedi) standing still. A Jedi can move to dodge a continuous beam weapon, but a Jedi can move to dodge blaster shots too, and I don't know how to quantify skill. Continuous beam weapons also have the advantage of being able to correct for your aim by moving your hand and using the shot as a guide, an advantage blasters don't have.

And once again...your upper and lower limits are proof of woeful use. You do understand why if someone goes a ten clonetroopers is a low end for a Jedi?

Well, I used an arbitrary unit, "number of phaser shots", not percentile. I don't see why it is not valid to discuss upper and lower ends. Also, I just proved that w, the time a Jedi is vulnerable, is larger in general with a continuous beam weapon than with smaller length blaster shots. Sure, ten clonetroopers is a low-end for a Jedi, but with my proof I've shown that continuous beam weapons are at least as effective against Jedi.

Because they are referring to that the Clonetrooper's gun can have speeds in excess of 400m/s bolts of energy and a Jedi's reaction has shown to barely take that.

That's why a continuous, slow moving beam is actually an advantage in this case. With phasers moving slowly, far more slowly than blasters in some cases (REF Picard managing to dodge a phaser beam the wrong way, and then dodging the right way, the phaser shot was moving slower than I could run!), that means a Jedi won't be able to kill the continuous beam firer without exposing himself for several seconds. A Jedi's dodging ability was not taken into account in this proof, but with a continuous beam weapon you can "move" your beam to correct for your inaccuracy. Dodging ability is also skill, so there's no way in hell I can quantify that anyway, at least not with the math I know. I can however show that moving a continuous beam to correct for aim is not hard. Simplify the situation with a right angle triangle. TanT = o/a.

Brain learn, because you are butchering more logical and scientific notions as you try to make your point.

I don't see why its so hard to believe that continuous beam weapons are at least as effective if not more effective than blaster shots. So for example if ten clonetroopers can take out a barely trained force-sensitive, ten clonetroopers armed with phasers can take out the guy too. The weakness period w is as large as t, or the time it takes for the continuous shot to reach the target. Plus the clonetroopers aren't as stupid as SF and will correct for their aim by moving the beam.

The best argument against this is of course, the one nobody likes to use. SF training is so horrid that they don't use the obvious advantage of a continuous beam weapon, correcting for your aim (they have used it a few times, but not very often and only the mains). Many, many redshirts will die if a Jedi/Sith boards a Fed ship, perhaps all of them. But I set out to prove in general that continuous beam is at least and more effective than single shot, which I have done.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Brian I will say it slowly.

One your use of Joules is if the Jedi was ABSORBING IT. It's obvious their lightsaber can deflect thing into the HUNDREDS of Mega Joules as Luke demonstrated.

So once again...you in that oversized, long winded post, showed nothing about SPEED.

Demonstrate that and we have a debate, because you're still parroting what you've said before, and that's not debating that's having a Wall of Ignorance.

[brianeyci]

Brian I will say it slowly.

One your use of Joules is if the Jedi was ABSORBING IT. It's obvious their lightsaber can deflect thing into the HUNDREDS of Mega Joules as Luke demonstrated.

I've already conceded that lightsabers can deflect phaser shots. I'm talking about the energy absorbition ability that people are using to say that phasers would be ineffective, since there's no way to quantify the Jedi's energy absorbition ability in relation to the number of NDF particles hitting a target I don't see how you can argue that.

So once again...you in that oversized, long winded post, showed nothing about SPEED.

Fine. Give me a bit and I'll post some screenies of phasers moving ultra slow, far slower than 400 m/s. Even SF's most modern phasers move slowly IIRC, you want screenshots fine.

Demonstrate that and we have a debate, because you're still parroting what you've said before, and that's not debating that's having a Wall of Ignorance.

Fine.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

1. NDF is bullshit technobabble and if you cannot counter that a phaser shot can deliver more then 6 MJ shot...concede. Prolonging the thought make you look more an idiot. Because relying on something that is defined under the nebulous NDF effect is saying "Lightning is different then regular electricity because it has a ARH effect which I cannot readily define or give proper thoughts to what can be quanitfy but it makes a difference...I think."

2. You do understand why it's a combination of speed and power, or are you just being dense?

[Lord Poe]

She raised the lightsaber to deflect the stun blast, but the paralyzing energy rippled around her from all sides and hammered Callista to the floor. Her lightsaber short-circuited, flashed out--and Callista crumpled into blackness...

(I am assuming the quote is accurate, since nobody blasted Winston Blake about it). Note that I am not using this quotation to prove that SW stun would be the same as ST stun -- I'm saying that the argument that Jedi can resist stun because they've resisted stun in the past is flawed in many ways, first and chief is that it violates the Golden Rule of debating sci-fi, and secondly that SW stun HAS been seen to disable Jedi so you can't use this argument in the first place even if we suspended the Golden Rule for some reason.

Callista was no longer a Jedi in Darksaber. She's a "ghost" inhabiting a body.

And if anybody doubts phaser rifles firing on widebeam,


(phasers.net)

You could make the argument that the Fed is currently using Type-IIIb pulse phasers, but still Type-II's have been seen to fire just as long as the phaser rifle in the picture on widebeam and single shot.

In the end though, it doesn't really matter. Jedi and Sith would not board Fed ships, they would never interact, and Vader would never attempt to take out a whole shitload of redshirts by himself. Villians always have henchmen to do their dirty work, even if they think they can do it themselves with relative ease -- an ego thing (REF all of SW). Vader/Palpatine would only show themselves in combat if there was a trained force-sensitive challenging the Empire in ST (which there obviously isn't).

Brian[/quote]

[Lord Poe]

Continuous beam weapons also have the advantage of being able to correct for your aim by moving your hand and using the shot as a guide, an advantage blasters don't have.

Continuous beam weapons also have the disadvantage of showing the one being shot at where the shooter is aiming. If a ferengi can easily, dodge a phaser beam (Rascals) a Jedi would have no problem whatsoever.

I've shown that continuous beam weapons are at least as effective against Jedi.

How have you shown this, exactly?

that means a Jedi won't be able to kill the continuous beam firer without exposing himself for several seconds.

And why is this, exactly? A Jedi can take the person's weapon from his even after its been fired, if he didn't want to dodge, that is.

A Jedi's dodging ability was not taken into account in this proof, but with a continuous beam weapon you can "move" your beam to correct for your inaccuracy.

Which will mean jack shit to a Jedi, if even a Ferengi can easily dodge and fire at a shooter.

[brianeyci]

Continuous beam weapons also have the disadvantage of showing the one being shot at where the shooter is aiming. If a ferengi can easily, dodge a phaser beam (Rascals) a Jedi would have no problem whatsoever.

Of course. But Worf was stupid and didn't move his hand downwards to correct for the aim. Worf only needed to twitch his hand, and the phaser beam would have hit the Ferengi. Lets say Worf was three meters away from the Ferengi. All the phaser had to move was lets say a meter downward to hit the Ferengi (generous). So all Worf had to do was move his hand a mere twenty degrees to hit the Ferengi to correct for the beam. Try it with your own hand, a human can easily move his hand far more than twenty degrees in a second.

I've shown that continuous beam weapons are at least as effective against Jedi.

How have you shown this, exactly?

See my proof using arbitrary constants that proves that w (time that a Jedi is weak) is longer for a continuous beam than short beams. I've yet to show that this applies to phasers specifically because I haven't plugged in the appropriate numbers, but that will come in time.

And why is this, exactly? A Jedi can take the person's weapon from his even after its been fired, if he didn't want to dodge, that is.

Depends on how far away the person is from the Jedi and whether a Jedi decides to use Force to take the weapon away. Dodging will be quantified in the next few posts, give me a bit though I'll need at least a couple weekends to do it properly, and maybe not these two weekends either since I've got a big midterm coming up.

Which will mean jack shit to a Jedi, if even a Ferengi can easily dodge and fire at a shooter.

The Ferengi dodged Worf, who was too stupid to make a twenty degree correction with his beam. Although granted Poe, this argument is a good one -- for example, SF never uses widebeam despite its obvious utility as a supression weapon, and I only know of one instance when phasers were fired and then aim was corrected by moving the beam. And, like your trekmiss (heh fun to watch) showed, SF marksmanship needs a little work. But for now, I'm not arguing that phasers would be effective in a redshirt's hands, I'm arguing that in the right hands a phaser can be as effective if not more effective than a blaster.

Next post, I will show that a phaser set on kill can overcome a Jedi's energy absorbition ability.

Brian

[Lord Poe]

Of course. But Worf was stupid and didn't move his hand downwards to correct for the aim. Worf only needed to twitch his hand, and the phaser beam would have hit the Ferengi.

Worf did in fact, move the stream to his phaser beam while firing. Watch the clip. Besides, you're talking like this gun battle is going to last a protracted period of time. It will only be seconds, and the phaser waver won't have all day to play catch-up with a Jedi who will either

A. Merely take his weapon

B. Cut it and the weilder's hand in two

C. Dodge the blast by jumping over the shooter

See my proof using arbitrary constants that proves that w (time that a Jedi is weak) is longer for a continuous beam than short beams. I've yet to show that this applies to phasers specifically because I haven't plugged in the appropriate numbers, but that will come in time.

You can't provide that proof because it doesn't exist. A jedi doesn't have to stand there and hold the lightsaber in the way of an incoming energy beam. As Obi-Wan and Mace Windu has shown onscreen, they can merely wait until the beam is upon them and deflect it as they are moving on to other business.

Depends on how far away the person is from the Jedi and whether a Jedi decides to use Force to take the weapon away.

See above. Range isn't going to matter to somebody who can "see things before they happen" and react accordingly.