Khan versus Darth Vader!

[Darth Lucifer]

Vader for sure...I'd invite him to the BBQ just to Force flip the goodies on the grill. Stick that in your ear and wrap it around your cerebral cortex, Khan!

[General Zod]

Vader for sure...I'd invite him to the BBQ just to Force flip the goodies on the grill. Stick that in your ear and wrap it around your cerebral cortex, Khan!

has vader ever been shown to use force lightning in any of the EU? if so it'd be a helluv a way to start up the grill.

[Rogue 9]

Not to my knowledge. He seems to prefer the Force choke and lightsaber.

[Rogue 9]

EDIT: Perhaps it has something to do with the suit. We saw what Palpatine's Force lightning did to his life support systems, so it's possible that he'd fry his own armor trying it.

[Stofsk]

EDIT: Perhaps it has something to do with the suit. We saw what Palpatine's Force lightning did to his life support systems, so it's possible that he'd fry his own armor trying it.

I just assumed Vader's rejection of the Dark Side was what killed him. In SotE it's strongly implied that the Dark Side is the only thing sustaining him. He feels weaker and in pain when he thinks of Anakin, and the reverse applies when he meditates on rage. By throwin Palpatine over the edge he did a good act out of love for his son; and so rejected the dark side. He then dies a little while later.

Of course, the suit may have ALSO contributed to his death. But given the mystical underpinnings of the force, I felt it worth mentioning.

[Medic]

Wake up people! Quit using "coolness" as the fucking yardstick.
I don't care if Khan can talk politics and Vader has a lightsaber.
The relevant points are things like Khan's sadism and Vader's propensity to choke the life out of people.

Anakin was a whinny bitch and Vader's tendancy to (quickly, mind you) kill people who don't perform to expectation remind me of what a petulant kid might do should he be powerful enough in the force. It's more of an instant satisfaction thing. Khan on the other hand gladly killed himself in an (ultimately vain) attempt at killing his nemesis, said this:

I've done far worse than kill you, Admiral. I've hurt you. And I wish to go on hurting you. I shall leave you as you left me, as you left her - marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet. Buried alive. Buried alive..."

, and served no one but himself and his all consuming hate.

Yeah right. Vader dies by settling the score with his children, after saving Luke's life and killing the Emperor; Khan dies like a pathetic dog, with nothing more than impotent curses to throw at Kirk, who lives anyway. Some 'edge'.

Case in point, I don't give a fuck about any humanitary contributions or good will bullshit, if the question is who is the better bad ass then Khan without a doubt.

WTF would Khan do with force powers? Khan uses fucking bugs to control people, if he had the force he would probably opt for the latter instead. And instead of using his superior intellect to seduce and corrupt he'd probably mind-rape people with the force. If he had the force he could rehash every dark memory, in that person's heart with the force and BREAK their will. The fact that Vader has the force and doesn't do this is WEAK. He's an okay bad-guy.

The Emporer, whom Vader serves, is more bad ass and frankly, the Emporer is what Khan could easily become with the force.

[General Zod]

Wake up people! Quit using "coolness" as the fucking yardstick.
I don't care if Khan can talk politics and Vader has a lightsaber.
The relevant points are things like Khan's sadism and Vader's propensity to choke the life out of people. >snippy<

you -did- actually read the op didn't you?

]Coolness factor, not combat prowess or anything.

[Medic]

And the question:

"Who is more bad ass?"

[Medic]

Well, I stick to my claim that Khan is more badass. *digs in for the winter
As to whether or not that is the issue, we could ask Lord Zentei.
And if I'm wrong well then yeah, Vader is cooler. He wears a cape (along with the lightsaber I so slandered)

[Chardok]

Ricardo Montalban can look at a woman, speak two or three words and make her have 17 orgasms simultaneously.

Vader can look at a woman, speak two or three words and make her piss her pants.


Khan= win.

[Sarevok]

Hmmm I say Vader is more badass, not because he is more powerful but because of the awesome voice, costume and attitude.

[Steven Snyder]

this is no contest really. vader has force powers and a lightsaber. what does khan have? designer genes. force powers + lightsaber are far cooler.

What does Khan have???

Personality.

[Steven Snyder]

The exact same could be said about killing a bunch of poor scientists.

In the end their acts aren't exactly anything to write home about, so we weigh in what parts of their villiany we enjoy seeing as villains.

When I talk about "coolness" I think of charisma, charm and has interesting things to say.

Vader is not charismatic, he is definately not charming, and the only thing he bothers to speak are threats, demands, and orders.

In my book, this isn't coolness, he may have uber-powers but underneath it all he is just a bitter old man. He has intentionally forgotten his past, he has no future. Vader is basically a bad HR guy who is shuffled around the Imperial Fleet to remind people the penalty for failure is death.

Khan on the otherhand has everything Vader doesn't. He has a wife he is out to avenge, a starship captain to kill, and a civilization to start. He is well versed in literature, he is a good speaker, and he has friends that mean things to him.

I could see myself inviting Khan to a BBQ because he would be interesting to talk to. But Vader, all he would do is brood around and creep people out.

[Ghost Rider]

The exact same could be said about killing a bunch of poor scientists.

In the end their acts aren't exactly anything to write home about, so we weigh in what parts of their villiany we enjoy seeing as villains.

When I talk about "coolness" I think of charisma, charm and has interesting things to say.

Vader is not charismatic, he is definately not charming, and the only thing he bothers to speak are threats, demands, and orders.

In my book, this isn't coolness, he may have uber-powers but underneath it all he is just a bitter old man. He has intentionally forgotten his past, he has no future. Vader is basically a bad HR guy who is shuffled around the Imperial Fleet to remind people the penalty for failure is death.

Khan on the otherhand has everything Vader doesn't. He has a wife he is out to avenge, a starship captain to kill, and a civilization to start. He is well versed in literature, he is a good speaker, and he has friends that mean things to him.

I could see myself inviting Khan to a BBQ because he would be interesting to talk to. But Vader, all he would do is brood around and creep people out.

Then like they say that's your opinion of coolness. But to go "He tortured his daughter how is that cool?" means he doesn't share your point of view. That's all.

To one person the level of intimidation and presence Vader has, overrides what Khan has in speech and attitude.

[YT300000]

SOme folks are talking about Kahn crippling the flagship. Let's remember that it this point the Enerprise is a training vessel. She's nowhere near what she was in TMP or TOS. The Reliant at least was an active duty vessel and probably more advanced than the Enterprise as I believe she is a later design.

While the Miranda class was seen sparingly in TOS, it was developed some time after the Constitution, and IIRC, the Reliant refit was almost brand-new in TWOK.

[YT300000]

Vader for sure...I'd invite him to the BBQ just to Force flip the goodies on the grill. Stick that in your ear and wrap it around your cerebral cortex, Khan!

has vader ever been shown to use force lightning in any of the EU? if so it'd be a helluv a way to start up the grill.

He used it in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, but it was a relatively small fan, similar in size to the one Dooku generated in AotC, and nothing like what Palpatine commanded.

[Darth Servo]

While the Miranda class was seen sparingly in TOS, it was developed some time after the Constitution, and IIRC, the Reliant refit was almost brand-new in TWOK.

Mirandas appeared in TOS? When?

[YT300000]

While the Miranda class was seen sparingly in TOS, it was developed some time after the Constitution, and IIRC, the Reliant refit was almost brand-new in TWOK.

Mirandas appeared in TOS? When?

I remember seeing one in the background (I'm really sorry, but I remember about 10 or so episode names from all of Star Trek at all, and this isn't one of them), albeit without the "rollbar" the Reliant had between its nacelles. Its quite likely this was the pre-refit Miranda.

[Lord Revan]

While the Miranda class was seen sparingly in TOS, it was developed some time after the Constitution, and IIRC, the Reliant refit was almost brand-new in TWOK.

Mirandas appeared in TOS? When?

I remember seeing one in the background (I'm really sorry, but I remember about 10 or so episode names from all of Star Trek at all, and this isn't one of them), albeit without the "rollbar" the Reliant had between its nacelles. Its quite likely this was the pre-refit Miranda.

IIRC all Federation starships were constitution-class in TOS (Miranda was designed for ST:II)

[Bob the Gunslinger]

this is no contest really. vader has force powers and a lightsaber. what does khan have? designer genes. force powers + lightsaber are far cooler.

Nah, I think that's like comparing George Bush to Arnold Schwartzenegger: Yes, he has cooler stuff, but he was born with it and didn't have to earn it.

Khan is a self-made villain (at least in the TOS years). He worked hard to cultivate his badassery and vileness. He may have been born with good genes, but he was also disadvantaged in that he grew up in an impoverished third world nation.

Darth Vader was born with more force powers than any other Jedi, so it is only natural for him to kill them. It doesn't reflect on his character because everything he ever needed for his villainy was provided by the Jedi Counsel and then by the Emperor. He didn't earn it.

That's a definite edge for Khan. Although I think Vader is probably among the greatest icons of cool supervillainy of all time, I have to say that I respect Khan more... as a villain.

[Captain Cyran]

Going to have to give this to Vader, though BARELY and I do mean that. The only reason Vader edges out is because, as a kid I was scared of him, Khan, not so much. Khan gets serious points for being a bad ass to the very end. If not for Vader just plain being scarier Khan would have this in my book.

[Lord Zentei]

Well, I stick to my claim that Khan is more badass. *digs in for the winter
As to whether or not that is the issue, we could ask Lord Zentei.
And if I'm wrong well then yeah, Vader is cooler. He wears a cape (along with the lightsaber I so slandered)

Badassery/coolness as a villain... I was deliberately vague on this point specifically so people would weigh in with which aspects of the two characters that they thought were the most important ones. Seems to have worked too.

[YT300000]

Mirandas appeared in TOS? When?

I remember seeing one in the background (I'm really sorry, but I remember about 10 or so episode names from all of Star Trek at all, and this isn't one of them), albeit without the "rollbar" the Reliant had between its nacelles. Its quite likely this was the pre-refit Miranda.

IIRC all Federation starships were constitution-class in TOS (Miranda was designed for ST:II)

That's odd, considering that there were far more classes around at the time. I suppose its possible it was an upside-down Connie from a weird angle, but it looked like a Miranda to me.

[Comosicus]

I'll give this one to Vader, in expectance of Ep. III.

Also I don't know much about Khan (except front ST2), so there was not so much info about him. Although I must admit he makes a cool villain to me too.

[Gunhead]

Vader takes it.

There was a poll between Vader, Dooku and Maul. Vader won because he has the coolest, most awesome, manliest, teh uber, hard on giving and just plain best background music that has or will be written, ever. (I really feel for you girls who can't have a hard on, but that's the only way the experience the awesomeness of the Imperial march )

Vader's the man

-Gunhead