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Junghalli
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Post by Junghalli »

Ghost Rider wrote:Given their accuracy with Ships of hundreds of meters, I would contend they would be rather hard for Federation personnel to hit with such a large weapon.
Depends on what kind of range you're planning on taking them down at. But those walkers are slow moving and bigger than a house. Even with just a manual targeting system a trained sharpshooter should be able to take them out from kilometers away IMO.
Ghost Rider wrote:Given they can take KT level hits...they do need a rather small nuke to destroy.
OK, but at this point I have to point out that those rebels in ESB were pretty close to the blaster cannons they were using on the walkers and didn't seem to be getting roasted by the flare effect (as one would expect if it were really a plasma weapon with KT yields). Then again, their cannons seemed pretty impotent against the walkers.
Ghost Rider wrote:Red Herring, given they like their counterparts have shown the ability not to be countered.
Yes, it is possible that every ground force in the entire Trek universe sucks as much as the cannon Fed army. But IMHO it doesn't strike me as terribly likely. You'd think SOMEBODY would remember combined arms, and they should by all rights rule that galaxy :? :roll: .
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Junghalli wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Given their accuracy with Ships of hundreds of meters, I would contend they would be rather hard for Federation personnel to hit with such a large weapon.
Depends on what kind of range you're planning on taking them down at. But those walkers are slow moving and bigger than a house. Even with just a manual targeting system a trained sharpshooter should be able to take them out from kilometers away IMO.
Same Sharpshotters who miss charging men and 600+ m ships?

Not holding my breath on them hitting houses.
Junghalli wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Given they can take KT level hits...they do need a rather small nuke to destroy.
OK, but at this point I have to point out that those rebels in ESB were pretty close to the blaster cannons they were using on the walkers and didn't seem to be getting roasted by the flare effect (as one would expect if it were really a plasma weapon with KT yields). Then again, their cannons seemed pretty impotent against the walkers.
And you already answered your own question. They didn't kill a walker...must not have been beyond the armor to asorb.
Junghalli wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Red Herring, given they like their counterparts have shown the ability not to be countered.
Yes, it is possible that every ground force in the entire Trek universe sucks as much as the cannon Fed army. But IMHO it doesn't strike me as terribly likely. You'd think SOMEBODY would remember combined arms, and they should by all rights rule that galaxy :? :roll: .
Glad you don't grasp a Strawman either.

They still survive within their galaxy and maintain a level of dominance to put them in the higher eschleons of power. Thus their tactics work for THAT universe.

It's your onus to show combined arms are needed against opponents who adopt the same tactics.
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Wong wrote:Overpowered weapons are not necessarily better; for any fixed amount of battery storage, you must trade off between power and ammunition. The more energy you expend per shot, the fewer shots you can fire.
That's a good point, since most armed forces in Trek don't have body armor. But if you're a redneck mercenary who wants to be prepared for anything, you're not going to want a weapon which is totally ineffective against packing crates. The BDR shows that at least somebody in Trek has some sense. And, with variable settings, you can always tune down the energy you use per shot if you're not fighting armored opponents. The customer was buying several thousand BDR's.

Han probably doesn't fight Stormies on a regular basis before ANH, yet he carries a weapon that can penetrate their armor and create a shitload of shrapnel. A redneck's gun or a smart man's gun, I go for smart.

Plus we actually see the BDR destroy an armored droid and flying drone, so its not just hyperbole. One wonders why SF doesn't incorporate BDR firepower with variable settings -- there has to be opponents out there that field armor. Hirogen is one example, Borg tactical drones (not the drones we saw in ST:FC) are another. I believe we've heard of a Cardassian armored vehicle somewhere. And, the Fed fields argos, so opponents probably have a similar vehicle. Standard phasers would probably be useless against Argos themselves, although they could nail the exposed driver and gunner.

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Post by Junghalli »

Ghost Rider wrote: Same Sharpshotters who miss charging men and 600+ m ships?
All right, it's possible the Fed has no sharpshooters. It's hard to believe personally, but then they were the victims of B&B's fiendish plan to bring down every government in the Milky Way by wussifying them out of existence :wink: .
Ghost Rider wrote:And you already answered your own question. They didn't kill a walker...must not have been beyond the armor to absorb.
Conceeded. Fed heavy ground cannons (if they exist) would have to be cranked up to such a high energy output they'd have to take out walkers at distances of many kilometers. Quite likely they wouldn't even have those settings, because they'd be frankly insane for an artillery cannon.
Ghost Rider wrote:Glad you don't grasp a Strawman either.
They still survive within their galaxy and maintain a level of dominance to put them in the higher eschleons of power. Thus their tactics work for THAT universe.
My point was precisely that. If their army really sucks that much there's no way they'd be anywhere near as powerful as they are.
However, it's also possible that every other AQ military blows just as hard, and that would be supported by Occams Razor (non-cannon speculated armies being an additional term). So I'm going to have to conceed this.
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Post by Striderteen »

brianeyci wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Han probably doesn't fight Stormies on a regular basis before ANH, yet he carries a weapon that can penetrate their armor and create a shitload of shrapnel. A redneck's gun or a smart man's gun, I go for smart.
Han's BlasTech DL-44 is the Star Wars equivalent of a .50AE Desert Eagle -- an extremely powerful and intimidating handgun with limited ammunition capacity but nearly as much firepower as light rifles.
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

At least the Argos are rear firing, which makes sense for the Feddies because they would mroe than likely be in a constant state of retreat.
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Fanboy wrote:At least the Argos are rear firing, which makes sense for the Feddies because they would mroe than likely be in a constant state of retreat.
Against what, those pussified Klingon mortars? In the Trekverse, Argos kick ass in the open battlefield because they can drive circles around whatever their opponents field. And given hand phasers historic weakness against dense elements, the Argo probably can't be taken out by hand phasers, although the operators are exposed. A little more armor on the Argo, and the Klingons have something to worry about.

Of course, they would be dominated by more heavily armored vehicles, but that's besides the point. We don't have evidence of any other armored vehicles fielded by the Fed's enemies, and one would assume that the Type-IV support phaser would be powerful enough to deal with whatever constitutes enemy armor in the Trekverse.

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Post by Stark »

Christ Brian, couldn't the enemy use 'teh widebeamzor' to kill the crew through the laughably unarmoured frame of the Argo? High power (dirt exploding) shots would kill or injure the crew with NEAR MISSES. Even assuming the Argo is difficult to hit, its also totally unable to hit jack OR shit, because its weapon isn't stabilised. Damn eh?
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Post by brianeyci »

Stark wrote:Christ Brian, couldn't the enemy use 'teh widebeamzor' to kill the crew through the laughably unarmoured frame of the Argo? High power (dirt exploding) shots would kill or injure the crew with NEAR MISSES. Even assuming the Argo is difficult to hit, its also totally unable to hit jack OR shit, because its weapon isn't stabilised. Damn eh?
Against enemies which use the same kind of weapons and have the same kind of accuracy, Argos would rule. Which is what you missed.

Also, I don't believe we've ever seen Klingon or Romulan widebeam shot, so their weapons may not have this setting. This is supported by Kira saying that a Cardassian disruptor only has a few settings. The lack of settings may be part of the functionality of a disruptor.

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Post by Lord Revan »

brianeyci wrote:
Stark wrote:Christ Brian, couldn't the enemy use 'teh widebeamzor' to kill the crew through the laughably unarmoured frame of the Argo? High power (dirt exploding) shots would kill or injure the crew with NEAR MISSES. Even assuming the Argo is difficult to hit, its also totally unable to hit jack OR shit, because its weapon isn't stabilised. Damn eh?
Against enemies which use the same kind of weapons and have the same kind of accuracy, Argos would rule. Which is what you missed.

Also, I don't believe we've ever seen Klingon or Romulan widebeam shot, so their weapons may not have this setting. This is supported by Kira saying that a Cardassian disruptor only has a few settings. The lack of settings may be part of the functionality of a disruptor.

Brian
BTW do Other cultures then the federation has stun setting (the setting we that wide beams are used).
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Post by brianeyci »

Lord Revan wrote:BTW do Other cultures then the federation has stun setting (the setting we that wide beams are used).
I don't know. The majority of the Fed's enemies are armed with disruptors, which don't have a stun setting. The only remotely close thing I can think of is Baran's transporter gun, only related because it doesn't kill someone when you shoot them (depending on whether you believe the cloning hypothesis).

Another point is that the Fed's opponents, the Klingons, field artillery which "blows holes in dirt" and requires near misses to injure someone as well.

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Post by NecronLord »

The Argo's a utility buggy with a gun added, not a ground combat vehicle.
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Post by Darth Wong »

brianeyci wrote:<snip widebeam wanking>
Do the calculations on intensity dissipation with range over a widebeam, moron. I've raised this point many, many times in the past, and I don't like it when people force me to repeat myself yet again. You think it's just a coincidence that it's only been used at short range in the films?
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Post by NecronLord »

And, for the record, yes, disruptors have stun. Checkov threatens to stun the USN guys in ST:IV with what is presumably a disruptor (It's not a phaser, and looks klingon)
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Post by Lord Revan »

NecronLord wrote:And, for the record, yes, disruptors have stun. Checkov threatens to stun the USN guys in ST:IV with what is presumably a disruptor (It's not a phaser, and looks klingon)
Yeah thanks reminding me (it looks like Klingon version of the Type-I phaser ("Type-I" Disruptor :wink: )
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Post by NecronLord »

Lord Revan wrote:Yeah thanks reminding me
Any time.
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Wong wrote:Do the calculations on intensity dissipation with range over a widebeam, moron. I've raised this point many, many times in the past, and I don't like it when people force me to repeat myself yet again. You think it's just a coincidence that it's only been used at short range in the films?
"Widebeam wanking"? Excuse me?
Stark wrote:Christ Brian, couldn't the enemy use 'teh widebeamzor' to kill the crew through the laughably unarmoured frame of the Argo?
I said that we don't see a stun setting. I have not claimed that widebeam would be useful against Argos, quite the contrary, I have claimed Argos would kick ass against Federation's conventional opponents.

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Post by Deathstalker »

brianeyci wrote:I have not claimed that widebeam would be useful against Argos, quite the contrary, I have claimed Argos would kick ass against Federation's conventional opponents.
I agree, it would be quite effective, because the enemy would be laughing to hard to actually mount an effective defense. Of course, if one of the enemy has no sense of humor, all he is going to do is shoulder his race's equivlant of a rocket launcher or heavy phaser, and blow the buggy to hell and gone. He could even go so far as actually aiming his phaser rifle and shooting the driver of the buggy.
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Post by brianeyci »

Deathstalker wrote:I agree, it would be quite effective, because the enemy would be laughing to hard to actually mount an effective defense. Of course, if one of the enemy has no sense of humor, all he is going to do is shoulder his race's equivlant of a rocket launcher or heavy phaser, and blow the buggy to hell and gone. He could even go so far as actually aiming his phaser rifle and shooting the driver of the buggy.
Ah, but you forget the power of Riker. Put Riker in the buggy... wham, everybody misses at point blank range and suddenly phaser shots go ultra-slow :twisted:.

Plus more to the point, other races have not been seen to use anything like a rocket launcher or heavy phaser. One heavy phaser machinegun present at AR-559 for example would have decimated the Jem'Hadar who were rushing through a narrow hallway. Federation troops are generally better equipped than their enemies. The BEST is a shitty artillery the Klingons have, or the Isomagnetic Desintigrator (A Fed weapon).

Aiming is not a sure thing either, especially if the dune buggy is going at full speed and firing its own phaser forcing their opponents to keep their heads down (the traditional role of an HMG/LMG?)

Too bad, Argos kick ass in Trek in the open battlefield, especially if they can take advantage of their speed and strafe. The Type-IV likely has a longer range than conventional phasers as well, so the Argo could just use hit-and-run tactics.

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Post by Darth Wong »

brianeyci wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Do the calculations on intensity dissipation with range over a widebeam, moron. I've raised this point many, many times in the past, and I don't like it when people force me to repeat myself yet again. You think it's just a coincidence that it's only been used at short range in the films?
"Widebeam wanking"? Excuse me?
Is this a rebuttal I see? No, it isn't. What is it supposed to be, then?
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Post by brianeyci »

Darth Wong wrote:Is this a rebuttal I see? No, it isn't. What is it supposed to be, then?
Doubt that stun settings exist on disruptors (until someone brought up the Klingon phaser point).

If you doubt that I am smart enough to figure out the energy dissipation over volume thing (and I don't blame you), SirNitram has actually made me aware of this before, so if someone brought up an example of widebeam non-Fed I would have brought that up. But you beat me to the point.

As an aside, I still doubt that the weapon Chekov was holding was a Klingon disruptor. We have never seen that this weapon held by Klingons or used by Klingons. Since the BOP was in Vulcan for a long time, perhaps the weapon is Vulcan. They overhauled the food supply and the main computer, who's to say that they didn't replace the weapons? Since we haven't seen Klingons hold the weapon, I'm doubtful that it is an actual Klingon Type-I.

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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

The existence of stun settings on Klingon disruptors is at least strongly implied by the following snippet of dialogue:

DEEP SPACE NINE: "The Sons of Mogh"

ODO
Your brother has had an...interesting career with the Klingon Defense Forces, Mister Worf. I just have one question: does he know how to use the stun setting on a disruptor?
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Post by Gunhead »

Patrick that little snippet is at best vague. It could just be Odo yanking Worf around. Like implying that his brother ain't too bright (joke being there is no stun setting on a disruptor).
Or that all the people Worf's brother has "apprehended" are dead/maimed. Making him a bit violent.

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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Gunhead wrote:Patrick that little snippet is at best vague. It could just be Odo yanking Worf around. Like implying that his brother ain't too bright (joke being there is no stun setting on a disruptor).
Or that all the people Worf's brother has "apprehended" are dead/maimed. Making him a bit violent.

-Gunhead
Gunhead wrote:Patrick that little snippet is at best vague. It could just be Odo yanking Worf around. Like implying that his brother ain't too bright (joke being there is no stun setting on a disruptor).
Or that all the people Worf's brother has "apprehended" are dead/maimed. Making him a bit violent.

-Gunhead
I'm not about to argue that it's anything beyond a "definite maybe" on Klingon disruptors having stun settings. No positive way to discern how the reference to stun settings on disruptors should be taken. The dialogue does, after all, continue as follows:

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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Sorry about that double quote, folks.
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