Trekkie told me ST will win SW because of time travel?!?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 02:57pm

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:A tiny nitpick, Nitram: In Enterprise, they went to the 31th century. Still, even then the Fed ships would be used as toilet paper and house insulation.

From the 22nd century. That's 900 years, not over a thousand.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 03:01pm

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:The idea of them setting up a colony and advancing their tech is ludicrous and demonstrates a fundamentally retarded view of technological advancement. Small groups with minimal resources, cut off from everyone else, do not close a 25,000 year gap.
My view on this concept is to do this repeatedly. Imagine sending them back in time 1,000 years. Now repeat this 20,000 times.

Twenty thousand jumps in succession? Alyeska, have you realized what you're suggesting? We've never seen a ship demonstrate more than two jumps in succession through time. You're seriously suggesting they perform ten thousand times this, somehow with their engines not detonating, running out of fuel, or fouling up in any way. Even if the chance of error was only .1%(Absurdly generous) per time jump guarantees any ships trying this are lost with all hands.

EDIT: Ah, I completely screwed up here, thought you were talking about small jumps back in time.

As for shunting the colony back repeatedly, you apparently didn't get my original comment. Tech advancement doesn't work like that. The Galactic Empire had a whole Galaxy over 25,000 years. Resources are absurdly important! And population is a resource.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-20 03:09pm

You misunderstand.

Jump back 1,000 years. Advance at this location for 1,000 years. Go back in time with more advanced technology and knowledge by 1,000 years. Advance at this location for 1,000 years. Go back in time with more advanced technology and knowledge by 1,000 years. Advance at this location for 1,000 years.

etc.

I mean make a 1,000 year jump, advance the technology back to present, then go back in time again. Repeat as necessary until your technology level is sufficent to defeat the Empire.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 03:13pm

Alyeska wrote:You misunderstand.

Jump back 1,000 years. Advance at this location for 1,000 years. Go back in time with more advanced technology and knowledge by 1,000 years. Advance at this location for 1,000 years. Go back in time with more advanced technology and knowledge by 1,000 years. Advance at this location for 1,000 years.

etc.

I mean make a 1,000 year jump, advance the technology back to present, then go back in time again. Repeat as necessary until your technology level is sufficent to defeat the Empire.

I misunderstood your post, and you apparently completely ignored mine.

Resources are massively important to research. And your 'research outpost' has bupkiss. It has whatever it's one attendent starship can carry, and that's it. Compare this to an entire fucking galaxy which is what produced the Star Wars tech level. Or just the entire world, that produced our modern tech.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-20 03:21pm

Actualy I am well aware of the resource issue. Thats why I gave the time travelers 200,000 years to try and catch what SW did in 25,000. The way my concept works is the time is ultimately irrelevent. The same group of tavelers can continualy go back in time. They can also potentialy take back resources with them such as more ships, factories, and the likes. This of course hinges on time travel being threaded in a single time line and that the time line is not self correcting and that pre-determination does not exist.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 03:28pm

Alyeska wrote:Actualy I am well aware of the resource issue. Thats why I gave the time travelers 200,000 years to try and catch what SW did in 25,000. The way my concept works is the time is ultimately irrelevent. The same group of tavelers can continualy go back in time. They can also potentialy take back resources with them such as more ships, factories, and the likes. This of course hinges on time travel being threaded in a single time line and that the time line is not self correcting and that pre-determination does not exist.

Alyeska, let's cover a few basic things.

1) Does it matter how much time if you don't have the raw materials? Antimatter production is iffy enough but still likely, but how do you increase power output with only a single planet? You certainly can't produce massive dense variants on a planet. This is just an example; you'll never replicate SW style antigrav because you can't produce the Dyson-esque facilities to harvest the raw materials. That's the sort of resources needed.

2) If you're altering one timeline, you've just paradoxed yourself. You are holding a device that was never invented. Grandfather Paradox...

3) And this colony of how many people exists for hundreds of thousands of years without undergoing any political or social revolutions but near constant technological revolutions? This isn't a game of Civilization.

4) Assuming the largest ship we know to time jump(Galaxy-Class) we have a thousand people. But they can't all be research specialists, as this colony must exist without suppot for a thousand years... Diminishing returns crushes this rapidly. Because the more advanced the gear, the more difficult it will be to maintain after the jump back.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-20 03:33pm

SirNitram wrote:1) Does it matter how much time if you don't have the raw materials? Antimatter production is iffy enough but still likely, but how do you increase power output with only a single planet? You certainly can't produce massive dense variants on a planet. This is just an example; you'll never replicate SW style antigrav because you can't produce the Dyson-esque facilities to harvest the raw materials. That's the sort of resources needed.

If it is determined extra resources are needed, they can always record the local history of the various systems and determine what they could pilfer without being caught.

2) If you're altering one timeline, you've just paradoxed yourself. You are holding a device that was never invented. Grandfather Paradox...

Hence the very big and obvious IF that overshadows my entire theory.

3) And this colony of how many people exists for hundreds of thousands of years without undergoing any political or social revolutions but near constant technological revolutions? This isn't a game of Civilization.

Indeed. Surgicaly implanted mind control devices would work wonders.:p

4) Assuming the largest ship we know to time jump(Galaxy-Class) we have a thousand people. But they can't all be research specialists, as this colony must exist without suppot for a thousand years... Diminishing returns crushes this rapidly. Because the more advanced the gear, the more difficult it will be to maintain after the jump back.

Why just send back one Galaxy class? And when they go back in time again, who is to say that they can't send back their entire civilization as built up?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 03:36pm

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:1) Does it matter how much time if you don't have the raw materials? Antimatter production is iffy enough but still likely, but how do you increase power output with only a single planet? You certainly can't produce massive dense variants on a planet. This is just an example; you'll never replicate SW style antigrav because you can't produce the Dyson-esque facilities to harvest the raw materials. That's the sort of resources needed.
If it is determined extra resources are needed, they can always record the local history of the various systems and determine what they could pilfer without being caught.

Listen to your goddamn self! Did you read what I wrote? I'm talking about megascale engineering and neutron-star density power supplies, and you're talking about pilfering with whatever bupkiss they have!

2) If you're altering one timeline, you've just paradoxed yourself. You are holding a device that was never invented. Grandfather Paradox...
Hence the very big and obvious IF that overshadows my entire theory.

You mean completely invalidates.

3) And this colony of how many people exists for hundreds of thousands of years without undergoing any political or social revolutions but near constant technological revolutions? This isn't a game of Civilization.
Indeed. Surgicaly implanted mind control devices would work wonders.:p

So you're going to mind control these folks yet they somehow produces wonders beyond your imagination. Restricted thought can't produce shit that doesn't even work on the principles Trek knows.

4) Assuming the largest ship we know to time jump(Galaxy-Class) we have a thousand people. But they can't all be research specialists, as this colony must exist without suppot for a thousand years... Diminishing returns crushes this rapidly. Because the more advanced the gear, the more difficult it will be to maintain after the jump back.
Why just send back one Galaxy class? And when they go back in time again, who is to say that they can't send back their entire civilization as built up?

And this magically isn't noticed.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-20 03:47pm

SirNitram wrote:Listen to your goddamn self! Did you read what I wrote? I'm talking about megascale engineering and neutron-star density power supplies, and you're talking about pilfering with whatever bupkiss they have!

Leap of logic. Trek technology =/ Star Wars technology. Megascale engineering isn't necessary for technology advancement.

You mean completely invalidates.

Give me a break. Its fucking obvious this isn't a real theory. I've already pointed out multiple times that this isn't possible. The whole purpose about what I am talking about is IF the known restrictions didn't apply.

So you're going to mind control these folks yet they somehow produces wonders beyond your imagination. Restricted thought can't produce shit that doesn't even work on the principles Trek knows.

Have a fucking imagination. I know the theory has holes and relies on assumptions and massive good fortune. I post a fun little theory for the hell of it and all you do is try and point out the flaws. Thats not the fucking point.

And this magically isn't noticed.

(sigh)

Nitram, you lack creativity and imagination. My idea is intentionaly outlandish, unrealistic, and quite fun. Pick someone else to nitpick to death.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-02-20 04:24pm

It would probably be a better idea to just time-hop 200 years. That way, you only get a 5th of the time, but there's a guarantee that your ship will survive to go that far back, and you could recruit the existing scientists in the Federation to help you. Just give them a year or so to catch up, and much more work can be done. And you don't have to worry about maintaining any colonies or anything.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 04:26pm

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Listen to your goddamn self! Did you read what I wrote? I'm talking about megascale engineering and neutron-star density power supplies, and you're talking about pilfering with whatever bupkiss they have!
Leap of logic. Trek technology =/ Star Wars technology. Megascale engineering isn't necessary for technology advancement.

It is necessary to beat someone with those resources to draw on. If you weren't being idiotic here, you'd realize even if you can magically asspull tech equivalence, you're outnumbered a few thousand to one.

You mean completely invalidates.
Give me a break. Its fucking obvious this isn't a real theory. I've already pointed out multiple times that this isn't possible. The whole purpose about what I am talking about is IF the known restrictions didn't apply.

Oh noes, someone pointed out it's all based on raving stupidity. Could it be I came into this thread to combat the raving stupidity on the subject of time travel? Could that be what my posts have been about from the start?

So you're going to mind control these folks yet they somehow produces wonders beyond your imagination. Restricted thought can't produce shit that doesn't even work on the principles Trek knows.
Have a fucking imagination. I know the theory has holes and relies on assumptions and massive good fortune. I post a fun little theory for the hell of it and all you do is try and point out the flaws. Thats not the fucking point.

Me have an imagination? At least I can conceive of outcomes beyond 'FEDERATION ROXOR!'. You can throw your ridiculous, idiotic theories around to someone whose entrance into the thread was not to dispel idiocy surrounding time travel.

And this magically isn't noticed.
(sigh)

Nitram, you lack creativity and imagination. My idea is intentionaly outlandish, unrealistic, and quite fun. Pick someone else to nitpick to death.

Fuck off you ignorant dipshit. God, you're such a fanboy. Someone points out your stupid theory is stupid and you start whining and accusing me of being uncreative because I don't rip my pants off and start masturbating furiously to the most overused, sodomized, and miscarried plot device in science fiction.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-02-20 04:34pm

YT300000 wrote:It would probably be a better idea to just time-hop 200 years. That way, you only get a 5th of the time, but there's a guarantee that your ship will survive to go that far back, and you could recruit the existing scientists in the Federation to help you. Just give them a year or so to catch up, and much more work can be done. And you don't have to worry about maintaining any colonies or anything.

And five genreations will just blindly follow the instructions?

But even then, for shits and giggles, a group goes back 200 years and 200 years later, comes up with some niffty new shit. Then you want to send them back again, which means to build upon what they've done, they have to recreate the infrastructure that took 200 years to make, to then start to improve upon the now new tech.

Which means that they spend time on infrastructure rather than R&D, which means the more they do this, the less actual time they have to create shit because they'll be spending more and more time on the build up until, eventually, you get to the point that you won't have enough resources or time to 'up' to the next level.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 04:42pm

Since I take attacks on my creativity rather seriously, let's actually step back and look at the two.

1) 'Time Island'

Everything goes hunky dorey, it sits in a loop for 200,000 years, and TEH WIN.

2) 'Time Island'

Will the scientists be able to produce anything useful, and what will they do if they can't? Will their children be loyal to the effort? What about their great-great-great grandchildren? What if there's a spy or.. Worse.. Sympathizers? Will they go for a power grab to make the Empire's newest breed of superweapons from 'Lost Tech' and a time loop? Will the innumerable researchers skipping back and looking to pre-industrial Earth ever get delusions of granduer? What will the Q think of this tampering with their games? Will the Vulcans, Klingons, and Romulans notice the outpost? Will, god forbid, the Empire be able to sneak a warship or transport into the 'jump back' and screw things up? What about the Empire's own time-travel capabilities.. Will they detect the anomalies and begin a 'temporal war'?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-02-20 04:58pm

YT300000 wrote:It would probably be a better idea to just time-hop 200 years. That way, you only get a 5th of the time, but there's a guarantee that your ship will survive to go that far back, and you could recruit the existing scientists in the Federation to help you. Just give them a year or so to catch up, and much more work can be done. And you don't have to worry about maintaining any colonies or anything.

That's retarded. If you took a modern aircraft carrier and plunked it down in the year 1805, they wouldn't even be able to maintain and supply their aircraft past whatever stores they have onboard. They certainly wouldn't be able to bring the world's technology base up to modern standards. Would they change history? Sure they would, but you wouldn't have an 1805 America with 2005 technology. People just don't fucking realize how interconnected and interdependent our technology base is, with multiple layers of specialization buried even in items as simple as the landing gear on a single plane.

The idea of the USS Nimitz bringing 1805 America up to 2005 technology level in "a year or so" is so fucking stupid it defies description, yet that is precisely analogous to what you are suggesting.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 05:17pm

Well, to be fair, they could probably acheive some advances before bottlenecks set in.

Cybernetics beyond mere 'Work for the good of the Federation' chips wouldn't be impossible. A networked workforce with enhancing implants would help alot.

They bloody well better be able to get the kinks out of Transwarp by then.

And, of course, to fend off the A-Q powers, it shouldn't be impossible to develop Frequency-Agile Weapons And Shields, which scan the operating frequency of weapons fire and enemy shields, and match/invert their own weapons and shields for optimal combat effectiveness with minimal additional power.

But the bottlenecks will still set in. What they need is room and time to expand. I figure a nice place on the far side of the Galaxy, say, a hundred thousand years back from the 'present day'(Transwarp should increase the length of time jumps, no?). And why limit themselves to tech they develop themselves? There's other races. A little impetus to develop faster, a few captured ships, and it should speed things up nicely.

Of course, without a true resource base, the first Transwarp ship for this jump back will need to be made of whatever spare metal can be found. And it will have to be large. So, I'm thinking something like this:

What do you guys think?

(Had to post it; had a burst of creativity after the arguments presented.)

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-20 05:24pm

Now your getting it Nitram. The idea doesn't have to be realistic, but it has to fit within the confines of a couple rules and it has to seem remotely plausible given those rules. And above all else, you gotta have fun. Good one, very good joke too.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-02-20 05:29pm

Darth Wong wrote:
YT300000 wrote:It would probably be a better idea to just time-hop 200 years. That way, you only get a 5th of the time, but there's a guarantee that your ship will survive to go that far back, and you could recruit the existing scientists in the Federation to help you. Just give them a year or so to catch up, and much more work can be done. And you don't have to worry about maintaining any colonies or anything.
That's retarded. If you took a modern aircraft carrier and plunked it down in the year 1805, they wouldn't even be able to maintain and supply their aircraft past whatever stores they have onboard. They certainly wouldn't be able to bring the world's technology base up to modern standards. Would they change history? Sure they would, but you wouldn't have an 1805 America with 2005 technology. People just don't fucking realize how interconnected and interdependent our technology base is, with multiple layers of specialization buried even in items as simple as the landing gear on a single plane.

The idea of the USS Nimitz bringing 1805 America up to 2005 technology level in "a year or so" is so fucking stupid it defies description, yet that is precisely analogous to what you are suggesting.

So you're saying that 24th century Star Trek is light years ahead of 22nd century Star Trek? From what I've seen, at most they have more powerful and efficient tricks and designs based on the same technology. Much like in the TNG episode Relics where Scotty was bemused by everything on the Enterprise D. He recognized it all, but it was weird and configured differently. That the crystals in their warp core should have fragmented or something.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-02-20 05:30pm

That would actually be such a cool explanation for the origin of the Borg. Somebody should put that in a fanfic.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-02-20 05:57pm

YT300000 wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
YT300000 wrote:It would probably be a better idea to just time-hop 200 years. That way, you only get a 5th of the time, but there's a guarantee that your ship will survive to go that far back, and you could recruit the existing scientists in the Federation to help you. Just give them a year or so to catch up, and much more work can be done. And you don't have to worry about maintaining any colonies or anything.
That's retarded. If you took a modern aircraft carrier and plunked it down in the year 1805, they wouldn't even be able to maintain and supply their aircraft past whatever stores they have onboard. They certainly wouldn't be able to bring the world's technology base up to modern standards. Would they change history? Sure they would, but you wouldn't have an 1805 America with 2005 technology. People just don't fucking realize how interconnected and interdependent our technology base is, with multiple layers of specialization buried even in items as simple as the landing gear on a single plane.

The idea of the USS Nimitz bringing 1805 America up to 2005 technology level in "a year or so" is so fucking stupid it defies description, yet that is precisely analogous to what you are suggesting.
So you're saying that 24th century Star Trek is light years ahead of 22nd century Star Trek? From what I've seen, at most they have more powerful and efficient tricks and designs based on the same technology. Much like in the TNG episode Relics where Scotty was bemused by everything on the Enterprise D. He recognized it all, but it was weird and configured differently. That the crystals in their warp core should have fragmented or something.

OK, let's try an example with a far tighter time-frame. Let's plop a B2 stealth bomber into 1939. The principles of aerodynamics are known, Jack Northrop and Ernst Heinkel are both toying with flying wing designs in that time period, and Fred Whittle and Ernst Heinkel are both designing the first jet engines. They might be able to recognise parts of it, even though they're "weird and configured differently". So, who could duplicate it?

Answer: NOBODY. Composite materials and advanced metallurgy don't exist in that time period. Microcircuitry which makes the fly-by-wire system which keeps the fucking plane from crashing from its own instabilities doesn't exist. The entire infrastructure which makes the stealth bomber possible does not exist in 1939. They could disassemble the B2, but there is nothing in 1939 which makes reverse-engineering the plane possible in that period. The technologies underlying the B2 will be discovered eventually but by the time all the pieces are in place, it's still as if there never had been a B2 in 1939.

It doesn't do any good to have an advanced framizat handed to you if one or more key componnents necessary to make it possible don't even exist in first-principles, nevermind in the form of working examples.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-02-20 06:47pm

YT300000 wrote:So you're saying that 24th century Star Trek is light years ahead of 22nd century Star Trek?

I'm saying it's 200 years ahead. You just don't realize how much can happen in 200 years.

From what I've seen, at most they have more powerful and efficient tricks and designs based on the same technology.

And what makes them more powerful and efficient? Magic? Nope, it's the march of technology. The engine in a modern Corvette is vastly more advanced than an ancient steam locomotive's engine, yet it's still based on the same basic physics principle. It still employs gas expansion from combustion as its driving force. It still uses pistons to rotate wheels. Does this mean it would be easy to bring a steam-locomotive society to the point where they can built a 2005 Corvette? In a fucking year? Your argument only holds water if they are already approaching technological stagnation by the time of the 22nd century, which seems rather doubtful considering the first Romulan War was fought without even the ability to communicate with real-time visuals over long ranges.

Much like in the TNG episode Relics where Scotty was bemused by everything on the Enterprise D. He recognized it all, but it was weird and configured differently. That the crystals in their warp core should have fragmented or something.

This would suggest that they are already approaching tech stagnation by the time of TNG. But they have by no means reached it. This is more like comparing a 1950s car to a modern Corvette. It's much closer in general design than the steam locomotive. A lot of paradigms from the older car would still apply, even some maintenance requirements.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-02-20 07:29pm

Actually, Nitram's explanation for the origin of the Borg would really make sense if you thought about it.
Why is SW more powerful than ST? Because the SW galaxy is unified and the ST galaxy is a jumble of small warring states. The first step to making ST as powerful as SW would be to unite the galaxy. The Borg are the ideal people to do this. Their goal is to eventually set up a galactic empire infinitely more unified and opressive than SW's: a galaxy-wide hive mind. And they have the military power to do it, albeit over a period of many centuries.
It has vague echoes of the end of Foundation and Earth, doesn't it?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-02-20 07:32pm

Junghalli wrote:Actually, Nitram's explanation for the origin of the Borg would really make sense if you thought about it.
Why is SW more powerful than ST? Because the SW galaxy is unified and the ST galaxy is a jumble of small warring states. The first step to making ST as powerful as SW would be to unite the galaxy. The Borg are the ideal people to do this. Their goal is to eventually set up a galactic empire infinitely more unified and opressive than SW's: a galaxy-wide hive mind. And they have the military power to do it, albeit over a period of many centuries.
It has vague echoes of the end of Foundation and Earth, doesn't it?

It's also got the central component of so many stories: The corruption of an ideal carried too far. The Borg really are the Federation taken to an extreme, a destructive one. They have lost the reason for what they do, and thus are now a mindless, incoherent destructive force.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-02-20 07:32pm

Borg also have a distinct lack of any sort of non linear thinking as well.

They overpower being because of pre established might, without it...we saw what happens if something comes along that doesn't fall into their small arena of suseptability.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-02-20 08:55pm

Isn't the whole 'colony back in timezor' suggestion fucking stupid, since it changes the combatants? It's EXACTLY the same as saying 'with 25,000 years, the Fedders would have a chance'. Who cares? We're talking about 24th century Fedders, not 24th century Fedders on a magical journey. 24th century Fedders lose, k thx n00b. Using time travel is PRECISELY THE SAME as just asking for 25,000 years lead time. Its just a dishonest way of doing it.

If they COULD use time travel to destroy the Empire, that'd be something. A totally irrelevant something, but something. Unfortunately they can't, and using time travel to increase their own history is the same as just giving the Fedders an extra few millenia.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2005-02-20 09:13pm

This plan in no way reflects the views of the Fox Corporation, and they should be held in no way responsible for any outbursts at the stupidity inherent in this half-assed rambling:

Learn to reliably build Soong Type androids(which may very well be impossible.) Establish controls to keep them within the restrictions of the programming you wish them to obey.

Identify the point where the Dyson sphere was last inhabited. Send you expedition back as far as possible, while arriving long enough after the Sphere was abandoned to avoid detection. Use power that the Sphere will automatically accumulate, and whatever can be stripped form the Sphere.

Select your living personnel for maximum loyalty to the cause, brainwash them and establish psychological controls, and have the androids programmed to eliminate them in the event they stop furthering the mission. Kill as many redshirts as is needed to be able to reliably do the Transporter duplicate trick, and use that trick to reproduce the still loyal version of personnel after they have been eliminated for being corrupt.

Use Alyeska's plan, taking everything learned, and jumping back until the desired tech level is reached.

Or you could just have the Borg do it, as they would be far more likely to stick to the plan, even if they would take far longer to come up with anything useful.

It might be even easier just to find an alternate universe where the Culture exists, convince them that the Empire is a bunch of big meanies, and get an eccentric formerly of Special Circumstances to play patty-cake with their heads.