Trek-Verse Alliance vs Rebel Alliance

[Nick Lancaster]

Allow me to make an analogy here. There's a country in, let's say central America, where there's a guy with a few thousand men fighting a guerilla war against the government. Then he actually manages to overthrow the government of that country. He becomes the boss and presumably he elevates his buddies to important positions in the new government. But he's also taken over the country. That means he controls tons of industrial capacity and military strength that he didn't before. His small guerilla army might become the core of whatever new forces he assembles, but aforementioned small guerilla army is NOT equal to the forces he now commands. Get it?

Show me that the Rebel Alliance magically gained this whup-ass industrial capability through eminent domain (i.e., we're in charge, your ass is ours). If not, and the corporations remained independent, then there is no such increase in ship production, and the ships of the Rebel Alliance form the core of the New Republic.

Why are you folks assuming that with Palpatine's death, Imperial troops just handed the keys over to the Rebels? We know (through the EU novels) that this is not the case. The Empire was lousy with graft and payoffs and private fiefdoms for every ambitious Admiral and Moff.

"This is the New Republic Frigate Freedom to Star Destroyer Adamant. We've killed the Emperor and all your base are belong to us."

Ridiculous.

[Batman]

Nick, I have officially no clue what you're getting at.

[NRS Guardian]

I've got a new scenario here.
Pit this unholy alliance against an invading Rebel Alliance (during the height of their power whatever it may be).
For example, exactly how many planets do the Rebel Alliance control, and what is the size of their fleet?

Bolded mine.
See that is what is getting people hung up you said the Rebel Alliance at the height of their power, well.... the New Republic is the height of Rebel power. If you wanted to talk about the Rebels before they became the New Republic then say something like just before the Battle of Endor or something because the Rebel Alliance declared a New Republic almost immediately after the Battle of Endor.

[Nick Lancaster]

Nick, I have officially no clue what you're getting at.

Simple. Rommie proposed a match up against the uber-Federation vs. the Rebel Alliance. This was further defined as, 'not the New Republic, but the Rebel Alliance,' with the Rebel Alliance being possessed of only a few hundred ships and limited resources.

I pointed out that the New Republic *is* the Rebel Alliance, having gained legitimacy as a political entity; Rommie insists that there are significant military differences between the two, and that they are not equal. The assumption is that victory suddenly granted the Rebels a windfall of equipment, ships, and manufacturing capability, which is not supported in the EU novels at all.

The only apparent purpose in insisting that there is a significant military difference between the two seems to be to gain a 'numerical advantage' on behalf of the uber-Federation. Despite Aleyska's well-reasoned analysis of Utopia Planitia's construction capability per year (112 large capital ships, possibly 2000 smaller spaceframes), figures like 10K ships for Starfleet alone would still seem to be overly optimistic. It is furthermore silly to be arguing for a small 'Rebel Alliance' and then be insisting on sunshine-and-rainbows production maximums solely to 'outnumber' the Rebels. (Not to mention, at the time of First Contact, the Federation has 150 member worlds - for an astounding 66.6 ships/member. Now we know how the economy works in the Federation! Everyone's indentured at a shipyard!)

That's it. No strategies for resource denial or even a steady pressure to prevent the Rebels from regrouping/rebuilding, just amass a kick-ass fleet and maybe, just maybe, we'll win a standing fight with the Rebel Alliance. We'll outnumber them, swarm all over them, they won't stand a chance. We'll use our supercalifragilisticexpiala-phasic torpedos!

It's the same tired Trek-boy silliness (even though Rommie insists he's not a Trekkie). Magic torpedos. Techno-ramalamadingdong solutions. Borg-o-rama. Kevin Uxbridge. Q.

No tactics, just fancy-talk plot devices.

I can just imagine Trek vs. Wars when it comes to solving a jigsaw puzzle.

Wars: We will adopt a methodical process, starting from the edge and working steadily to obtain our goal of completing the puzzle.

Trek: What if we focus the sensors and link them to the stellar cartography imaging system, so we analyze each piece in three dimensions and determine the probable relationship of each piece, and then we'll use pinpoint site-to-site beaming to complete the process!

[Rommie2006]

One word. *Sarcasm*. The argument was *intentionally* flawed and was not trying to prove anything, except that you cant equate factions just because they are somehow related.

Nice dodge. You can't answer me, so you invent a for-crap argument, then say it wasn't meant to be serious, and pick nits in my response to your for-crap argument?

Like I said, you sure the hell argue like a Trekkie.

And you apparently do not have a flair for sarcasm. Pointing fingers instead of admitting your own stupidity won't help. Referring to prev post:

I guess to them the Old Republic IS the Galactic Empire also, since the Empire was based on the Republic, conveniently forgetting the military build-up when it turned into the Empire.
Oh won't that mean the New Republic is the Galactic Empire since they absorbed many Imperial systems?
Gee then we would conclude that Old Republic = Galactic Empire = New Republic = Rebel Alliance

Note the tone of the phrases used like "Oh won't that mean" and "Gee then". It's obvious that I was not seriously advocating the final statement.

Speaking of maths, the Rebel Alliance is a sub-set of te New Republic, no contention here. But then why are insisting that Rebel Alliance = New Republic? There is a difference between SUBSET from EQUAL. If the Rebel Alliance is a sub-set of the New Republic, which you have so graciously pointed out, then it cannot be equal to the New Republic. In fact it is implied that New Republic = Rebel Alliance + Something else! -> Rebel Alliance < New Republic.

You were the one who asserted that the Rebel Alliance is significantly different (i.e. weaker) than the New Republic, by way of some magical ship construction or exchange of property that took place once Palpatine was tossed down the power shaft.

I continue to point out that the core of the New Republic is the Rebel Alliance. You are the one that must prove that their ascendancy resulted in such a significant change in military structure that they are substantially different, because that is YOUR claim.

Instead, you keep saying it's not so and I need to prove otherwise.

Sorry, that's not the way burden of proof works.

So unless you can prove that the New Republic did NOT build any ships at all after their formation, then you can prove New Republic = Rebel Alliance, from a military point of view.

Again, you're the one who wanted to face 'Rebel Alliance' (implying less ships and overall miliary strength) in order to bolster your chances of success with a Federation mega-fleet. I pointed out an error in your assumption, and you are still trying to insist there are significantly fewer ships and resources.

Somehow, you think they magically transformed into a far-more expansive and better equipped entity, as if it were a corporate merger instead of a political shift. Or perhaps you think they sat around for a couple of years building things before they said, "Okay, now we're the New Republic!"

Bear in mind that in the X-Wing series, at no point does the 'New Republic' sprout warships. They'd love to have a Star Destroyer or two, but the only person with one is Booster Terrik. The Lusankya doesn't even show up for four books, and it's under Isard's command! The Imperial Remnant retains a significant force, as do various warlords. It's not like everyone started singing the Republic Anthem and began laboring for the glory of the New Republic.

When we reach the Thrawn era, we find the Empire more than sufficiently equipped ... but where are the vast numbers of warships you claim the New Republic must have?

Might it be that they don't exist?

Might it be that manufacturing facilities and shipyards didn't automatically change hands? That there was no 'eminent domain' exercised, and Sienar Fleet Systems and other corporations retained their independence, able to do business with whomever has the credit?

Might it be that the core of the New Republic is the 'weaker' Rebel Alliance you want to fight so badly?

Really? I admit I have limited knowledge of SW EU, but then I shoot back at you - How about ship and fighters like the E-Wing, K-Wing, the new X-Wing models we see in the invasion of Yuuzhan Yong. Then there is the new mon cal cruisers, the B-version called Mon Remonda I think. Then I've read about some uber mon cal "star defender".
Plus add all the Imperial Star Destroyers they captured in the process. Then there was also Mon Mothma "ban" on building cap ships greater than a certain size in the early years of the New Republic. Why set a size limit of a ships if there weren't any in production???

So unless they New Republic is made up of idiots, they must have built newer ships and fighters both to replace those destroyed in various battles and to boolster their naval strength. They were no longer the rebels, they were the government. As their republic grew and increased in influence, they needed more ships to patrol their systems against Imperial Renmants. It may not have been explicitly stated in the EU novels, but it was implied.

[Rommie2006]

You were the one who asserted that the Rebel Alliance is significantly different (i.e. weaker) than the New Republic, by way of some magical ship construction or exchange of property that took place once Palpatine was tossed down the power shaft.

Allow me to make an analogy here. There's a country in, let's say central America, where there's a guy with a few thousand men fighting a guerilla war against the government. Then he actually manages to overthrow the government of that country. He becomes the boss and presumably he elevates his buddies to important positions in the new government. But he's also taken over the country. That means he controls tons of industrial capacity and military strength that he didn't before. His small guerilla army might become the core of whatever new forces he assembles, but aforementioned small guerilla army is NOT equal to the forces he now commands. Get it?

Exactly my point. That's why I proposed the Rebel Alliance for this discussion. They are the weakest power in SW-verse. The entire Trek-verse would not have been able to stand up to the New Republic that is pretty clear. But I was just wondering if Trek-verse could push their luck with the Rebel Alliance.

[Rommie2006]

Allow me to make an analogy here. There's a country in, let's say central America, where there's a guy with a few thousand men fighting a guerilla war against the government. Then he actually manages to overthrow the government of that country. He becomes the boss and presumably he elevates his buddies to important positions in the new government. But he's also taken over the country. That means he controls tons of industrial capacity and military strength that he didn't before. His small guerilla army might become the core of whatever new forces he assembles, but aforementioned small guerilla army is NOT equal to the forces he now commands. Get it?

Show me that the Rebel Alliance magically gained this whup-ass industrial capability through eminent domain (i.e., we're in charge, your ass is ours). If not, and the corporations remained independent, then there is no such increase in ship production, and the ships of the Rebel Alliance form the core of the New Republic.

Why are you folks assuming that with Palpatine's death, Imperial troops just handed the keys over to the Rebels? We know (through the EU novels) that this is not the case. The Empire was lousy with graft and payoffs and private fiefdoms for every ambitious Admiral and Moff.

"This is the New Republic Frigate Freedom to Star Destroyer Adamant. We've killed the Emperor and all your base are belong to us."

Ridiculous.

So you seriously think the New Republic had ZERO ship production all the time? Man, use some common sense man. Never have I advocated that the New Republic magically overtook all production facilities from the Empire. Perhaps *You thought* I did.
If I ever had to made a pt on New Republic industrial capacity, it would be it is likely and possibly true that the New Republic negotiated deals with *some* of the corporations out there (who are not that sympathetic to the Empire). Obviously some corporations like Sienar stuck to the Empire, but surely some defected, either officially or unoffically.

[Rommie2006]

I've got a new scenario here.
Pit this unholy alliance against an invading Rebel Alliance (during the height of their power whatever it may be).
For example, exactly how many planets do the Rebel Alliance control, and what is the size of their fleet?

Bolded mine.
See that is what is getting people hung up you said the Rebel Alliance at the height of their power, well.... the New Republic is the height of Rebel power. If you wanted to talk about the Rebels before they became the New Republic then say something like just before the Battle of Endor or something because the Rebel Alliance declared a New Republic almost immediately after the Battle of Endor.

F***ing hell. Stop twisting my words.
Maybe I should be clear. Height of the Rebel Alliance's power was most probably just before the Battle of Endor and any other ships that for some reason did not participate in the battle.

[Rommie2006]

Nick, I have officially no clue what you're getting at.

Simple. Rommie proposed a match up against the uber-Federation vs. the Rebel Alliance. This was further defined as, 'not the New Republic, but the Rebel Alliance,' with the Rebel Alliance being possessed of only a few hundred ships and limited resources.

I pointed out that the New Republic *is* the Rebel Alliance, having gained legitimacy as a political entity; Rommie insists that there are significant military differences between the two, and that they are not equal. The assumption is that victory suddenly granted the Rebels a windfall of equipment, ships, and manufacturing capability, which is not supported in the EU novels at all.

The only apparent purpose in insisting that there is a significant military difference between the two seems to be to gain a 'numerical advantage' on behalf of the uber-Federation. Despite Aleyska's well-reasoned analysis of Utopia Planitia's construction capability per year (112 large capital ships, possibly 2000 smaller spaceframes), figures like 10K ships for Starfleet alone would still seem to be overly optimistic. It is furthermore silly to be arguing for a small 'Rebel Alliance' and then be insisting on sunshine-and-rainbows production maximums solely to 'outnumber' the Rebels. (Not to mention, at the time of First Contact, the Federation has 150 member worlds - for an astounding 66.6 ships/member. Now we know how the economy works in the Federation! Everyone's indentured at a shipyard!)

Fine. I've already admitted my error at the 10k ship figure. It was meant to be 1k? This mistake I admit. An error on my part. Happy?

That's it. No strategies for resource denial or even a steady pressure to prevent the Rebels from regrouping/rebuilding, just amass a kick-ass fleet and maybe, just maybe, we'll win a standing fight with the Rebel Alliance. We'll outnumber them, swarm all over them, they won't stand a chance. We'll use our supercalifragilisticexpiala-phasic torpedos!

It's the same tired Trek-boy silliness (even though Rommie insists he's not a Trekkie). Magic torpedos. Techno-ramalamadingdong solutions. Borg-o-rama. Kevin Uxbridge. Q.

No tactics, just fancy-talk plot devices.

I can just imagine Trek vs. Wars when it comes to solving a jigsaw puzzle.

Wars: We will adopt a methodical process, starting from the edge and working steadily to obtain our goal of completing the puzzle.

Trek: What if we focus the sensors and link them to the stellar cartography imaging system, so we analyze each piece in three dimensions and determine the probable relationship of each piece, and then we'll use pinpoint site-to-site beaming to complete the process!

Perhaps I wasnt clear earlier on.
Rebel's hyperspace advantage. I proposed to neutralise it by using Transwarp tech and those Borg "Transwarp conduits" that extend to critical systems in the Trek-Alliance. Thus, an attempt to assault a key system can be countered more easily since reinforcements can arrive in time.
Rebel's weaponry advantage. I proposed to even it somehow by using ablative armor generators and transphasic torps. The ablative armor would not have been developed if it was not significantly stronger than std shields. (I am not implying it is a uber-invincible armor, but perhaps instead of surviving one shot from mon-cal TL, trek ships can now survive five shots). Transphasic torps apparently have a greater damage yield than PT/QT. So I am suggesting perhaps it could reduce the no. of torps to take down a mon cal (I am not implying a one-shot kill, but perhaps when it took 1000+ PT it may now take only 100+ transphasic torps). Using numerically superiority on their side, I am asking if is it possible for Trek-Alliance to win for once?

[Rommie2006]

Nick, I have officially no clue what you're getting at.

Simple. Rommie proposed a match up against the uber-Federation vs. the Rebel Alliance. This was further defined as, 'not the New Republic, but the Rebel Alliance,' with the Rebel Alliance being possessed of only a few hundred ships and limited resources.

I pointed out that the New Republic *is* the Rebel Alliance, having gained legitimacy as a political entity; Rommie insists that there are significant military differences between the two, and that they are not equal. The assumption is that victory suddenly granted the Rebels a windfall of equipment, ships, and manufacturing capability, which is not supported in the EU novels at all.

The only apparent purpose in insisting that there is a significant military difference between the two seems to be to gain a 'numerical advantage' on behalf of the uber-Federation. Despite Aleyska's well-reasoned analysis of Utopia Planitia's construction capability per year (112 large capital ships, possibly 2000 smaller spaceframes), figures like 10K ships for Starfleet alone would still seem to be overly optimistic. It is furthermore silly to be arguing for a small 'Rebel Alliance' and then be insisting on sunshine-and-rainbows production maximums solely to 'outnumber' the Rebels. (Not to mention, at the time of First Contact, the Federation has 150 member worlds - for an astounding 66.6 ships/member. Now we know how the economy works in the Federation! Everyone's indentured at a shipyard!)

Fine. I've already admitted my error at the 10k ship figure. It was meant to be 1k? This mistake I admit. An error on my part. Happy?

That's it. No strategies for resource denial or even a steady pressure to prevent the Rebels from regrouping/rebuilding, just amass a kick-ass fleet and maybe, just maybe, we'll win a standing fight with the Rebel Alliance. We'll outnumber them, swarm all over them, they won't stand a chance. We'll use our supercalifragilisticexpiala-phasic torpedos!

It's the same tired Trek-boy silliness (even though Rommie insists he's not a Trekkie). Magic torpedos. Techno-ramalamadingdong solutions. Borg-o-rama. Kevin Uxbridge. Q.

No tactics, just fancy-talk plot devices.

I can just imagine Trek vs. Wars when it comes to solving a jigsaw puzzle.

Wars: We will adopt a methodical process, starting from the edge and working steadily to obtain our goal of completing the puzzle.

Trek: What if we focus the sensors and link them to the stellar cartography imaging system, so we analyze each piece in three dimensions and determine the probable relationship of each piece, and then we'll use pinpoint site-to-site beaming to complete the process!

Perhaps I wasnt clear earlier on.
Rebel's hyperspace advantage. I proposed to neutralise it by using Transwarp tech and those Borg "Transwarp conduits" that extend to critical systems in the Trek-Alliance. Thus, an attempt to assault a key system can be countered more easily since reinforcements can arrive in time.
Rebel's weaponry advantage. I proposed to even it somehow by using ablative armor generators and transphasic torps. The ablative armor would not have been developed if it was not significantly stronger than std shields. (I am not implying it is a uber-invincible armor, but perhaps instead of surviving one shot from mon-cal TL, trek ships can now survive five shots). Transphasic torps apparently have a greater damage yield than PT/QT. So I am suggesting perhaps it could reduce the no. of torps to take down a mon cal (I am not implying a one-shot kill, but perhaps when it took 1000+ PT it may now take only 100+ transphasic torps). Using numerically superiority on their side, I am asking if is it possible for Trek-Alliance to win for once?

[Rommie2006]

And it would be nice if you stop making assumptions on the points that I am advocating.

Let me make this clear. Even at post VOY timeline, with combined tech from all major powers in Trek, SW tech is still technically superior to it by a few levels.
My main assertion is with the combined tech, can Trek overwhelm the numerically inferior Rebel Alliance just by sheer numbers, and neutralise or at least even the odds of any tactical adv the Rebels have (hyperspace, shielding, weapons) using tech that was not prev available to the Alpha Quadrant powers (i.e. Borg n Dominion tech)?

[Ghost Rider]

Did you even read how long it would take a 40 ships firing uber wanked calced Photon Torpedos for 10 rounds PER SECOND?

Yes, NO?

Because it answer your fucking question of just how long this farce lasts.

Put it this way...I let the whole phasic crap hit the HULL of said ship, let them fire at rates NO ONE demonstrated, and with yields of 100% that have NEVER been shown in the ENTIRE series FROM ANY POWER.

It take them nearly minimal 3-8 MINUTES....for 40 ships RELENTLESSLY pounding on a ship THAT' S SITTING there.

So let's see...who do you think fucking wins

[Rommie2006]

Did you even read how long it would take a 40 ships firing uber wanked calced Photon Torpedos for 10 rounds PER SECOND?

Yes, NO?

Because it answer your fucking question of just how long this farce lasts.

Put it this way...I let the whole phasic crap hit the HULL of said ship, let them fire at rates NO ONE demonstrated, and with yields of 100% that have NEVER been shown in the ENTIRE series FROM ANY POWER.

It take them nearly minimal 3-8 MINUTES....for 40 ships RELENTLESSLY pounding on a ship THAT' S SITTING there.

So let's see...who do you think fucking wins

Ok. I get your point. Guess you're right after all.

[Nick Lancaster]

And you apparently do not have a flair for sarcasm. Pointing fingers instead of admitting your own stupidity won't help. Referring to prev post:

<snip>

Note the tone of the phrases used like "Oh won't that mean" and "Gee then". It's obvious that I was not seriously advocating the final statement.

Thanks for the ad hominem, dude.

Instead of countering my argument, you offered a completely invalid premise and called it sarcasm, which is somehow supposed to prove that I'm stupid?

You're still arguing like one of those Trek-boys.

Really? I admit I have limited knowledge of SW EU, but then I shoot back at you - How about ship and fighters like the E-Wing, K-Wing, the new X-Wing models we see in the invasion of Yuuzhan Yong. Then there is the new mon cal cruisers, the B-version called Mon Remonda I think. Then I've read about some uber mon cal "star defender".

The New Jedi Order books (wherein we find the Yuuzhan Vong) are 10 years or more down the line from the New Republic/Rogue Squadron novels.

As far as I can tell, you and I have both been speaking about the immediate changes resulting from the Rebel victory at the Battle of Endor.

Plus add all the Imperial Star Destroyers they captured in the process. Then there was also Mon Mothma "ban" on building cap ships greater than a certain size in the early years of the New Republic. Why set a size limit of a ships if there weren't any in production???

What captured Star Destroyers? As I've pointed out, one of the running 'gags' in the series was Booster Terrik's possession of the Errant Venture. That's right - the Rebels win, but did they have any Star Destroyers? NO. They finally captured the Lusankya, but it was later destroyed.

So unless they New Republic is made up of idiots, they must have built newer ships and fighters both to replace those destroyed in various battles and to boolster their naval strength. They were no longer the rebels, they were the government. As their republic grew and increased in influence, they needed more ships to patrol their systems against Imperial Renmants. It may not have been explicitly stated in the EU novels, but it was implied.

Wrong. You're still the one arguing for some magic resumption of production at mass levels, and this is simply not sustained by the EU novels. There was no exercise of eminent domain, and the major corporations would continue business as usual. (Furthermore, unless 'the Rebels are idiots,' as you say, would they have provided an Imperial-allied corporation with design documents for new Rebel ships?)

Nor did I say there was NO production.

You are continuing to insist that there's some kind of magic transformation or accrual of ships (as opposed to a gradual restoration over the course of a decade) that makes the Rebel Alliance 'end' at a given date and the New Republic 'begin'.

It is nice, however, to hear you acknowledge you were shuffling numbers in a desperate attempt to bolster the uber-Federation's chances of success.

[Prozac the Robert]

How about kamikazee attacks? A fleet of dominion ships might be able to take something down by crashing into it.

Lets see, say each could carry enough antimatter for a thousand torpedos, thats on the order of tens of gigatons damage per ship. Plus kinetic impact effects, which could cause damage separately.

How about a giant Tholian web? With thousands of ships creating it, it could enclose quite a large area.

Alternatively, how about attacks by cloaked ships on the rebel's production or resourse gathering facilities? They can't all be guarded all the time. And with attacks happening often and unpredictably, they would have to reserve a lot of their ships to defend them.

Seriously, how long could the rebels opperate in the ST galaxy without any intervention by their enemies anyway? I guess it depends on how much industry they transport with them, but when they were the rebel aliance I'm not sure they really had any. Didn't openly rebelling worlds tend to just get smashed by the imperial fleet?

[Ghost Rider]

Ah, what if they strike the Rebels with Kamikaze.

Sad to see this is the resort of a loser.

The Rebels can destroy all your production facilities before you can get to theirs if they set are across the GALAXY, let alone within the same supposed Trek Sectors.

Seriously why do people ignore that thinking the Rebels being "Not Empire" but forgetting they still use the same TECHNOLOGY.

The only reason people go "Even if the Empire was the same power level they still..." note that phrase even if.

They are nowhere NEAR the same power level. What takes Treks minutes to hours to accomplish Wars does that in less of tenth of the same alloted time.

After AoTC and more of the EU it's become a farce but some still try and think "Let's say we...". This reminds me of Marvel fucktard fanboys not wanting to admit that Superman at Bryne level could destroy the entire team, let alone current. One tries but fails to grasp the orders of magnitude of power disparity and thinks on the whole subjective that there is always something.

Barring getting GT plus level weaponry and shielding...it doesn't.

[Rommie2006]

And you apparently do not have a flair for sarcasm. Pointing fingers instead of admitting your own stupidity won't help. Referring to prev post:

<snip>

Note the tone of the phrases used like "Oh won't that mean" and "Gee then". It's obvious that I was not seriously advocating the final statement.

Thanks for the ad hominem, dude.

Instead of countering my argument, you offered a completely invalid premise and called it sarcasm, which is somehow supposed to prove that I'm stupid?

You're still arguing like one of those Trek-boys.

Fine. Whatever. This aint getting us anywhere.

Really? I admit I have limited knowledge of SW EU, but then I shoot back at you - How about ship and fighters like the E-Wing, K-Wing, the new X-Wing models we see in the invasion of Yuuzhan Yong. Then there is the new mon cal cruisers, the B-version called Mon Remonda I think. Then I've read about some uber mon cal "star defender".

The New Jedi Order books (wherein we find the Yuuzhan Vong) are 10 years or more down the line from the New Republic/Rogue Squadron novels.

As far as I can tell, you and I have both been speaking about the immediate changes resulting from the Rebel victory at the Battle of Endor.

Ok, I'm confused. So now you are admitting that the New Republic is not the Rebel Alliance for a military point of view?

Plus add all the Imperial Star Destroyers they captured in the process. Then there was also Mon Mothma "ban" on building cap ships greater than a certain size in the early years of the New Republic. Why set a size limit of a ships if there weren't any in production???

What captured Star Destroyers? As I've pointed out, one of the running 'gags' in the series was Booster Terrik's possession of the Errant Venture. That's right - the Rebels win, but did they have any Star Destroyers? NO. They finally captured the Lusankya, but it was later destroyed..

I'm no EU fan, but I remember reading about some Star Destroyers captured then later renamed to "Emancipator" or something like that. It is on the SW Tech Commentary site where they list the names of all known Star Destroyers and their "affliation" and"history".

So unless they New Republic is made up of idiots, they must have built newer ships and fighters both to replace those destroyed in various battles and to boolster their naval strength. They were no longer the rebels, they were the government. As their republic grew and increased in influence, they needed more ships to patrol their systems against Imperial Renmants. It may not have been explicitly stated in the EU novels, but it was implied.

Wrong. You're still the one arguing for some magic resumption of production at mass levels, and this is simply not sustained by the EU novels. There was no exercise of eminent domain, and the major corporations would continue business as usual. (Furthermore, unless 'the Rebels are idiots,' as you say, would they have provided an Imperial-allied corporation with design documents for new Rebel ships?)

Nor did I say there was NO production.

You are continuing to insist that there's some kind of magic transformation or accrual of ships (as opposed to a gradual restoration over the course of a decade) that makes the Rebel Alliance 'end' at a given date and the New Republic 'begin'.

It is nice, however, to hear you acknowledge you were shuffling numbers in a desperate attempt to bolster the uber-Federation's chances of success.

Nice of you to say that, thanks. I do admit when I have made a mistake in numbers. Anyway since when did I "insist that there's some kind of magic transformation or accrual of ships"? I only said that the New Republic cannot be equal to the Rebel Alliance because their fleet size is significantly larger than the Rebel Alliance. Perhaps you thought I implied it?
Look I wont (and I never did) contest the fact that the New Republic(immediately following Endor) and the Rebel Alliance are almost equal in military strength. I am contesting your claim (quote 1st post: When folks say, oh, I was talking about the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic ... what, pray tell, did you think the New Republic was? It's the Rebel Alliance, pinheads. ), which I take it as the entire span of the reign of the New Republic since you *did not* mention which timeframe.
So if you are going to continue to assert that the New Republic (in NJO and beyond) is equal to Rebel Alliance, I say bullshit. If all the while you have been yakking about New Republic(after Endor) = Rebel Alliance, then you get no argument from me.

But for all intents and purposes, the New Republic have lasted for over 10yrs and prob will continue to last for decades. Your using of the New Republic's fleet strength after Endor to represent the strength of the New Republic for its entire existence is hardly accurate and I contest it. I take the New Republic strength to be during the time just before Yuuzhan Yong invasion period where things have stabilised into a more orderly Republic. And this is a more accurate estimation of the New Republic strength because it is REPRESENTATIVE of the New Republic during its entire course in history.

[Junghalli]

OK, I think this would be a lot easier if we clarified whether we're talking about the Rebel Alliance pre-Endor or post-Endor.

Pre-Endor Alliance: a guerilla army backed by a couple of hundred ships, with most of their industrial capacity being covert supply from sympathetic worlds (very little or no industrial capacity of their own).

Post-Endor Alliance: actually controls planets and ship-building facilities. Not all of them mind you, but enough that they can expand their military by several orders of magnitude from what it was pre-Endor.

In other words we're talking about the difference between a guerilla force and a nation here.

[Ghost Rider]

I am starting to wonder why even going into sematics of this level.

It's a difference between minor spooging in the face and a full blown bukkake.

The ST universe loses because they need to corner a ship with 1000 to 1 odds and pray that reinforcements back them up in sec at 1000+ ships for a single engagment with ONE Mon Cal cruiser.

There's still cum on your face...the only difference is in tablespoon or gallon format.

[Junghalli]

Not to mention, at the time of First Contact, the Federation has 150 member worlds - for an astounding 66.6 ships/member. Now we know how the economy works in the Federation! Everyone's indentured at a shipyard!

66 ships to defend an entire planet is a pretty high degree of militarization, but it doesn't strike me as a ludicrous number. Especially since Picard probably meant 150 major planets, not 150 planets total (in TOS Kirk said that Earth was approaching 1,000 colonies). Although you're correct in that it doesn't jibe well with the loss of 50 ships at Wolf 359 to be such a crippling blow.

That's it. No strategies for resource denial or even a steady pressure to prevent the Rebels from regrouping/rebuilding, just amass a kick-ass fleet and maybe, just maybe, we'll win a standing fight with the Rebel Alliance. We'll outnumber them, swarm all over them, they won't stand a chance. We'll use our supercalifragilisticexpiala-phasic torpedos!
It's the same tired Trek-boy silliness (even though Rommie insists he's not a Trekkie). Magic torpedos. Techno-ramalamadingdong solutions. Borg-o-rama. Kevin Uxbridge. Q.
No tactics, just fancy-talk plot devices.

When one of your enemies ships is equal to thousands of yours is it any surprise people start grasping at straws?
Resource denial would actually be a very good strategy against the Rebel Alliance, presuming they have no industrial bases of their own. Destroy all your own facilities before they capture the planet, and eventually their ships will break down. Also I would advocate conserving your space fleet and mostly fighting the Rebels on the ground. The Rebels only seem to have at most a couple of million men, so their going to have a lot of trouble actually conquering five or six planets with billion+ populations. Don't bother fighting them in space as it's basically futile, just wait for them to land and then throw redshirts at them like there's no tomorrow. And when you run out of redshirts distribute hand phasers to every able-bodied man on the planet (giving the typical quality of soldiers in the Trekverse I doubt they'd do much worse than redshirts anyway). Also if I had time I'd try to improve my ground forces and give them combined arms and cavalry.

Rebel's weaponry advantage. I proposed to even it somehow by using ablative armor generators and transphasic torps. The ablative armor would not have been developed if it was not significantly stronger than std shields. (I am not implying it is a uber-invincible armor, but perhaps instead of surviving one shot from mon-cal TL, trek ships can now survive five shots).

I can't envision any armor that could survive being hit with a beam with the destructive force of 200 gigatons, except possibly neutronium (and good luck stabilizing that!).

[Nick Lancaster]

Nice of you to say that, thanks. I do admit when I have made a mistake in numbers. Anyway since when did I "insist that there's some kind of magic transformation or accrual of ships"? I only said that the New Republic cannot be equal to the Rebel Alliance because their fleet size is significantly larger than the Rebel Alliance. Perhaps you thought I implied it?

Right. But when, precisely, did this increase in fleet size occur? The Rebel Alliance basically dubbed themselves the New Republic after the Battle of Endor - but there was no sudden acquisition or production of ships. Hence, my assertion that they are, at that point in time, functionally the same.

It is only a few posts back that you indicated you were thinking of the NJO timeframe, where the New Republic has had more than a decade (almost two) to expand and develop new fighters, new spaceframes, and so on.

Look I wont (and I never did) contest the fact that the New Republic(immediately following Endor) and the Rebel Alliance are almost equal in military strength.

Fair enough.

I am contesting your claim (quote 1st post: When folks say, oh, I was talking about the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic ... what, pray tell, did you think the New Republic was? It's the Rebel Alliance, pinheads. ), which I take it as the entire span of the reign of the New Republic since you *did not* mention which timeframe.

So the point of contention has been:

A - When did the Rebel Alliance become the New Republic.
B - At what point did the New Republic accomplish significant production or other acquisition (capture, etc.) of capital ships?

As I kept mentioning the Battle of Endor, it would seem clear about which time frame I was talking about, but I can understand your not seeing it in quite the same way. However, for years after the Battle of Endor (as measured by watching things like the growing Organa-Solo clan), the New Republic did not significantly advance in ship strength.

So it may be a semantic issue, but the overall strength of 'New Republic' for several years following the Battle of Endor was not significantly greater than that of the 'Rebel Alliance.'

So if you are going to continue to assert that the New Republic (in NJO and beyond) is equal to Rebel Alliance, I say bullshit. If all the while you have been yakking about New Republic(after Endor) = Rebel Alliance, then you get no argument from me.

The former is false, the latter is true. We're done. Now, let's discuss strategies that would make it possible for Trek to go out fighting, perhaps?

Can we assume that the Rebels will engage in the same guerilla tactics used against the Empire, that is, hit-and-run, covert missions of infiltration and sabotage? How would Section 31 or the Obsidian Order stack up to that? Would Leia prove as resistant to a Klingon Mind Sifter as to an Imperial Interrogation Droid?

What worlds would you consider prime targets, and how would you defend them?

Given the seeming disparity in Federation weapon output vs. Republic shield/defensive capabilities, how do you approach combat to negate or minimize this factor?

Or, as some have suggested, is it a foregone conclusion and the Republic wins, regardless?

[Lone_Prodigy]

66 ships to defend an entire planet is a pretty high degree of militarization, but it doesn't strike me as a ludicrous number

What would to you? 600? 6,000 per planet? Face it, if the loss of 50 ships was less then 1% of their entire fleet then Wolf 359 would've just been a minor skirmish, not a major battle. Stop pulling shit out of your ass.

Destroy all your own facilities before they capture the planet, and eventually their ships will break down.

If they felt like it and had the balls to do it, a few Mon Cal cruisers could simply jump to Earth, Vulcan, and all of the other major worlds and hold them hostage. If even a single world's resources were intentional ruined, billions would be slaughtered. Considering the level of pussiness displayed by Federation officers, the Rebels could capture the whole Federation infrastructure intact within hours. No long war of BDZing one planet at a time, just a lightning strike right for the jugular.

[Junghalli]

What would to you? 600? 6,000 per planet? Face it, if the loss of 50 ships was less then 1% of their entire fleet then Wolf 359 would've just been a minor skirmish, not a major battle. Stop pulling shit out of your ass.

I definitely remember writing that if they had 66 ships per planet Wolf 359 wouldn't have been considered a major defeat. Next time read what I fucking wrote.

If they felt like it and had the balls to do it, a few Mon Cal cruisers could simply jump to Earth, Vulcan, and all of the other major worlds and hold them hostage.

Yes, but if the Rebels have no industrial base they'll have to eventually capture some worlds intact. So if I use resource denial tactics (destroying the factories and assets of threatened territories, like Nazis did at the end of WWI) that'll leave the Rebels with two options
(1) BDZ the planet and hope it serves as an object lesson.
(2) Land ground troops and try to conquer the planet militarily.
The former leaves them unable to exploit the planet's resources. The latter forces them into the arena of combat where Trek would actually have a chance (note: we're not sure if the Rebels have no sources of resupply because the OP is vague on that count).

If even a single world's resources were intentional ruined, billions would be slaughtered. Considering the level of pussiness displayed by Federation officers, the Rebels could capture the whole Federation infrastructure intact within hours. No long war of BDZing one planet at a time, just a lightning strike right for the jugular.

Yes, the downside of a campaign of resource denial is that it takes cast iron balls to carry it out. You're counting on the enemy's need for resources to prevent him from just blasting you from orbit. Almost inevitably you're looking at a couple of planets being BDZed as object lessons, possibly the destruction of most of your worlds before they start to starve and can't afford to continue that. Even just the resource depletion operations in themselves are likely to cause famines. But given the tremendous odds against the Federation it's a relatively sound strategy playing to the Rebel's weaknesses.

[generator_g1]

What captured Star Destroyers? As I've pointed out, one of the running 'gags' in the series was Booster Terrik's possession of the Errant Venture. That's right - the Rebels win, but did they have any Star Destroyers? NO. They finally captured the Lusankya, but it was later destroyed.

IIRC, Leia mentions something about the Hapans giving the New Republic captured Star Destroyers for use in the NR military. It was when she was in Hapes, trying to get the Hapans to side with the NR against the YV.

[Nick Lancaster]

IIRC, Leia mentions something about the Hapans giving the New Republic captured Star Destroyers for use in the NR military. It was when she was in Hapes, trying to get the Hapans to side with the NR against the YV.

Right, and the dispute between Rommie and myself was centered over 'New Republic shortly after the Battle of Endor' and 'New Republic at the time of the New Jedi Order novels'.

So the captured Star Destroyers were not a factor for well over a decade.