Yuuzhan Vong in the Delta Quadrant

[Crayz9000]

Crayz9000: Except those with rejection arent ill they have displeased the gods and are thus shuned, if an entire ship falls prey that ship did something wrong and so on eventually they catch on so you make the disease less that 100% contagious, it isnt meant to kill the Vong its meant to thin their ranks (by removing the infected from the warrior pool) and act as a way of diminishing morale ("what the hell are we doing wrong???" priest - " the gods are displeased with the progress of the war" warmaster- "then we must attack ...." etc etc).

My, don't you have such a superficial grasp of things. Learn to actually read the books and not just skim over them, OK?

The Shamed Ones are shamed for the reason that their bodies rejected implants, not because they caught some disease. It's like organ transplants today; for all of our technology, we sometimes cannot prevent someone's immune system from destroying a transplanted organ. Thus, the Shamed Ones are relegated to menial duties in the Yuuzhan Vong command structure.

If a ship was infected with some agent, it would not be a case of the Vong running around acting like idiots. They may be arrogant and ugly, but they are NOT STUPID--get it yet? Infecting a Yuuzhan Vong ship with a bioagent will only succeed in pissing them off, and with the shipbuilding rates that they have, it only follows that Starfleet could not hope to withstand an all-out assault.

As for one of your other points, Nom Anor and some other "heretical" Yuuzhan Vong make it clear that their gods do not exist. If anything, the religious caste may be keeping the gods "alive," so to speak, so as to maintain control over the warrior caste.

[TheDarkling]

Crayz9000: Wow an insult not an uncommon occurance here - you got anger control issues?

Thats my very point the disease simulates rejection and its been done one of their own shapers does i and yes I know that some dont believe in the gods but the rejection disease can still force their hand a little and cause some strife.

Why do you keep assuming its a ship you have to infect and not a colony? or an invading army etc.

We have already discussed Vong ship building and the fact they are lacking in crew/troops also they wont have any ombs when they first turn up - after a year of war/construction 3000 ships is the vast bulk of their fleet with forces that small in the intial attack will wave they wont be able to gain control of any sizable portion of the AQ/BQ/GQ powers the DQ they have a shot at but if they were attackin the Feds like they did the NR the Vong wouldnt be as succesful as they were in the other timeline.

PS I do read the books and not skim over themmaybe you should take your own advice when other peoples posts

[Sea Skimmer]

Ender: The various methods already mentioned - even the NR used technobabble to help them in the fight and other unconventional warfare - thats what the Feds excel at.

On a bioweapon front - section 31 came up with the founders bioplague in a year or two and the they know next to nothing about their biology, the Vong would be childs play by comparission.

Of course the Vong could overwhelm the Federation within a day, and would unleash there own planet killing bio weapons on the Federation if the tried anything. The Vong wiped out major planets because of resistance activities. A Federation anti Vong bio weapon would result in the whole scale extermination of the Federations worlds. And with the Vong speed advantages, pre existing bio weapons stock and the Federations lack of shields, it wouldn't take long.

[TheDarkling]

Sea Skimmer: You going to back that bluster up? just because the Vong put the hurt on the NR doesnt mean they can walk the Feds.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ender: The various methods already mentioned - even the NR used technobabble to help them in the fight and other unconventional warfare - thats what the Feds excel at.

On a bioweapon front - section 31 came up with the founders bioplague in a year or two and the they know next to nothing about their biology, the Vong would be childs play by comparission.

Except... the Yuuzhan Vong are also experts at bioengineering. Imagine infiltrators going down to Earth with clean bills of health and spreading bo'tous all over the Senate.

And even if Section 31 did manage to infect a single Yuuzhan Vong ship, I'm sure that the shaper caste would be able to determine the cause and neutralize it. They aren't complete idiots, after all.

Forget that. Place some dovin basals on moons across the Sol System and destroy most of the bases and Terra overnight with mooncrashes.

[HemlockGrey]

The Vong could just pick off some outlying colonies, lurk, build up a massive fleet and blitz the Feds. Earth falls in a day and the UFP crumples.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Illuminatus Primus: I agree there, the huge FTL advantage will be pretty much the Vongs only plus but they will be worn down especially if transporters prove to be an effective weapon, theres also the theory that phasers are wrapped in a subspace field (because they can be fired at warp) if true then this may enable phasers to cut past the gravity bending effects of the black holes and the yorik coral will probably not resist phasers well.

No limit fallacy. Open the "subspace" technobabble and suddenly you can drill right through singularities.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hell, whatever ore confuses transporters could eventually be added to the recipe for yorik coral. They can hide in deep space with impunity as long as they need.

That is entirely dependent on Nen Yim fixing that issue and even then they would have to regrow the entire fleet.

Nem Yim is the only shaper in the species? The others adapt, just would feel her radical departures are "heretical."

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ender: They dont need high teraton weapony because if they can "sneak around" dovin basals shielding then a phaser will slice and dice the ships nicely, as for gaining a lock - shouldnt be too differcult for worldships and the bigger ships.

The Vong ships can take several turbolaser hits. They're only a level weaker then NR ships, but Trek armor and shields and weapons are many orders of magnitude too weak.

[TheDarkling]

Illuminatus Primus: No its not a no limits falalcy its simply saying that since subspace insulates matter from gravity that unless the phaser hits the singularity head on its just going to keep on going.

On the moon thing - please remember who you are dealing with, little Johnny using his fresh new tricorder would pick up the gravity problem and localise it in 5 minutes, kill the Dovin basals then drag the moon back to where it should be.

Nem Yim is the only shaper not ham stringed by the vong religion (and theres no way to know if she would come to be that way in this situation).

Cyril: Why?

[TheDarkling]

Illuminatus Primus: Yes but Fed ships have Combat FTL, ways to dodge the Vongs shields (IDF, Anti Gravity, transporters, Phasers, warp strafe and even simply mining (the uber bomb of doom comes to mind)).

They would actually attack the Vong and they have better meditech than the NR (or at least faster) they could use nano weapons although this wouldnt be as automatic as usua (since the 8472 thing didnt go down)l, the Feds would figure out Yammosk "speech" with one technobabble filled minute from any science officier etc etc, you forget the Vong were built (by the writters) to fight the NR the Empire would have beaten them with sheer military might and the Feds will out "tech" them, the NR were caught in the middle.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Illuminatus Primus: No its not a no limits falalcy its simply saying that since subspace insulates matter from gravity that unless the phaser hits the singularity head on its just going to keep on going.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying the Enterprise can fly straight through a black hole?

On the moon thing - please remember who you are dealing with, little Johnny using his fresh new tricorder would pick up the gravity problem and localise it in 5 minutes, kill the Dovin basals then drag the moon back to where it should be.

SW planets with a 25,000 year + advantage in sensor technology (which isn't confused by force fields or quantum distrubuting motors or something) didn't detect the dovin basals in time. They only noticed when the moon's orbit was significantly decaying. It isn't that easy.

Nem Yim is the only shaper not ham stringed by the vong religion (and theres no way to know if she would come to be that way in this situation).

Ok, so being a religious fundamentalist physically and mentally prevents them from coming up with any solution to the transporters, assuming of course that the singularities won't screw them up?

[TheDarkling]

Illuminatus Primus: No its not a no limits falalcy its simply saying that since subspace insulates matter from gravity that unless the phaser hits the singularity head on its just going to keep on going.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying the Enterprise can fly straight through a black hole?

You're wrong

On the moon thing - please remember who you are dealing with, little Johnny using his fresh new tricorder would pick up the gravity problem and localise it in 5 minutes, kill the Dovin basals then drag the moon back to where it should be.

SW planets with a 25,000 year + advantage in sensor technology (which isn't confused by force fields or quantum distrubuting motors or something) didn't detect the dovin basals in time. They only noticed when the moon's orbit was significantly decaying. It isn't that easy.

A cargo ship which wasnt rigged with science equipment couldnt find it - I think you will find the Feds have more luck (in a Voyager episode they detect a small (not enough to crush a probe) gravity signature while flying past at warp).

Nem Yim is the only shaper not ham stringed by the vong religion (and theres no way to know if she would come to be that way in this situation).

Ok, so being a religious fundamentalist physically and mentally prevents them from coming up with any solution to the transporters, assuming of course that the singularities won't screw them up?

Did I say that??????

I was simply explaining what Ender meant.

This is getting tired - stop misinterpreting me .

[Illuminatus Primus]

Illuminatus Primus: Yes but Fed ships have Combat FTL, ways to dodge the Vongs shields (IDF, Anti Gravity, transporters, Phasers, warp strafe and even simply mining (the uber bomb of doom comes to mind)).

IDF: Already explained isn't the dues ex machina to end the singularities.

Combat FTL: The Vong can ambush each Feddie outpost independently across the Federation with much greater numbers. How exactly will they know to use this and use it to kill much larger numbers of much superior (in durability, speed, and firepower).

Phasers: Oh yes, the subspace tech will drill straight through blackholes and automatically vaporize material which can take multiple hundreds-of-gigatons attacks. Not to mention that the dovin basals could be utilized in concert to drag minefields out of position.

Mining: Oh yes they'll mine even though the first attack will occur across the whole Federation before warning due to such better FTL.

They would actually attack the Vong..

Really? The Vong have slightly worse hyperspace tech then the NR and by the time they realized they were coming would be across the galaxy by that time.

...and they have better meditech than the NR (or at least faster)

The Vong replace limbs with personally made genetically built creatures. They have better meditech then the NR.

....they could use nano weapons although this wouldnt be as automatic as usua (since the 8472 thing didnt go down)l

Explain.

the Feds would figure out Yammosk "speech" with one technobabble filled minute from any science officier etc etc, you forget the Vong were built (by the writters) to fight the NR the Empire would have beaten them with sheer military might and the Feds will out "tech" them, the NR were caught in the middle.

No explanation, just appeal to people's perceptions of the Feddies annoying traits (solutions through technobabble).

[Illuminatus Primus]

Nem Yim is the only shaper not ham stringed by the vong religion (and theres no way to know if she would come to be that way in this situation).

Ok, so being a religious fundamentalist physically and mentally prevents them from coming up with any solution to the transporters, assuming of course that the singularities won't screw them up?

Did I say that??????

I was simply explaining what Ender meant.

This is getting tired - stop misinterpreting me .

I read the book, I know the situation with Nem Yim. I was saying, that who cares if she's more radical and not a fundamentalist. That doesn't mean a fundamentalist couldn't make adaptations. They (fundamentalist shapers, and not Nem Yim) adapted the vornskrs to create voxyn in a few months when they captured Myrkr.

[Crayz9000]

Darkling, it's not that I have anything against you. It's just that you type like a Garble and make nonsensical points.

The problem is that you're relying on the idea that the technobabble and the covert ops organization of the Federation will save the day. Take a look at history. Has something like that ever happened realistically?

I've never said that the Yuuzhan Vong would crush the Milky Way overnight. But if they got a start in the Delta Quadrant, they have the numbers, the means, and the determination to pull off a complete conquest of the Milky Way

Now, going back to the plague idea, it's likely that Section 31 could come out with some sort of genetically engineered plague after time. What is unlikely is the idea that Section 31 will be able to strike deep enough into Vong territory to actually *use* it.

[TheDarkling]

The Vong have a few thousand ships and they are going to hit every Fed,Klingon,Cardy,Romulan and Dominion world at the same time??? yeah righ they are out numbered about 20 to 1 (if not 30 or 40) even just with the FKR they are out numbered 5 to 1.

On the subspace issue - continue to lie about what I have said, you seem to enjoy it (have fun).

Yorrik Coral is rock, Phaser love rock and Xwing blasts have hulled frigates before so I hardly think that Yorik COrall can take multi GT fire power and remain intact.

The first attack will occur everywhere at the same time (thats a max of 3 ships per fed world), they will also get a map from nowhere (since the feds dont know they are coming, yet teh Vong know alot about the Feds somehow).

I meant Vong holdings in Fed space woul be ttacked, I assumed you would understand this... I was wrong.

The Vong having better meditech than the NR is a non issue to what Ender and I were discussing (the Feds can however do what you are describing but arms instead of creatures).

Explain what??? Nano weapons could be used like they were against 8472.

Why is an explanation needed - you have seen trek right? you do realise they eat gravitic annomalies for breakfast right?

[Master of Ossus]

Ender: The various methods already mentioned - even the NR used technobabble to help them in the fight and other unconventional warfare - thats what the Feds excel at.

On a bioweapon front - section 31 came up with the founders bioplague in a year or two and the they know next to nothing about their biology, the Vong would be childs play by comparission.

I'm sure they're proud of themselves. After years of studying Odo they were able to come up with a bio-weapon that is vastly less effective than the weapon Chiss scientists came up with over the course of months to use against the Yuuzhan Vong.

[TheDarkling]

Crayz9000: It really depends on what the Vong do - they may attack the GQ first and the Dominion will ram them till they give up hurting the Vongs population (Dominion ship building is fantastic (by trek standards) and they probably have a few 10,000s of ships in the GQ).

It also depends upon what shape the Borg are in becaus eif they are in any shape to fight using ramming they have a chance.

Master of Ossus: They had a few years (maybe 2) to study a freaky no humanoid (non solid in fact) life form and create a bio weapon.
The Vong are humanoid and would therefore take alot less in the R&D department, but then again you didnt really have a point did you MOO.

[Crayz9000]

The Vong have a few thousand ships and they are going to hit every Fed,Klingon,Cardy,Romulan and Dominion world at the same time??? yeah righ they are out numbered about 20 to 1 (if not 30 or 40) even just with the FKR they are out numbered 5 to 1.

READ WHAT I SAID!

I said "I don't think the Vong can pull off a complete conquest of the Milky Way overnight." That means a PROLONGED CAMPAIGN.

Yorrik Coral is rock, Phaser love rock and Xwing blasts have hulled frigates before so I hardly think that Yorik COrall can take multi GT fire power and remain intact.

I have no doubt that phasers will rapidly eat away at the hulls, which are composed primarily of calcium (AFAIK)... if they can hit them in the first place. Have phasers *ever* been able to shoot through singularities? A phaser is a slower-than-light beam weapon, and thus is governed by the laws of physics.

The first attack will occur everywhere at the same time (thats a max of 3 ships per fed world), they will also get a map from nowhere (since the feds dont know they are coming, yet teh Vong know alot about the Feds somehow).

Splitting your entire fleet into tiny, bite-sized chunks of 3 or 4 ships and attacking every world the enemy holds is foolhardy. Only a complete moron would even conceive of such a plan.

The Yuuzhan Vong take about a dozen worlds at the most in a single shot. They use overwhelming force to take the world, then strengthen their forces there. They do NOT split their forces up into easily dealt with bite-sized chunks.

I meant Vong holdings in Fed space woul be ttacked, I assumed you would understand this... I was wrong.

A quote from time immemorial: "The best defence is a good offense." If the Yuuzhan Vong follow their tried-and-tested battle strategy, which is essentially similar to the German blitzkrieg, the Federation will be so hard-pressed to halt an invasion that they will have no resources left for a counterassault.

Why is an explanation needed - you have seen trek right? you do realise they eat gravitic annomalies for breakfast right?

Explain VOY: "Parallax" then.

[TheDarkling]

Crayz9000: I was talking Illuminatus Primus if you look up he states the Vong will take out the Feds in one go, so I guess you are calling his choice of attack moronic, I agree .

Therefore there was no reason to shout "read what i said" prehaps you shouldnt simply scan over the thread hmmm ?

Phasers dont need to go through the singularities simply not get bent into them by the gravity, phaser can be an FTL weapon when fired at warp, I believe a tech manual (non canon but still) says they are encased in a subspace field thus they could be modded to always be contiained in the subsapce field and thus be ftl (or at least avoid the affect of gravity to a large extent).

I know the Vong dnot split up their fleet like that - again I was addressing another poster points

Explain Parallax, I have actually seen it done but taking that as a singularity means that SF ships using technobabble can escape an event horrizon therefore showing over coming blackholes can be done (probably due to technobabble).

[Sea Skimmer]

Sea Skimmer: You going to back that bluster up? just because the Vong put the hurt on the NR doesnt mean they can walk the Feds.

Lets see, the New Republic has a massive numerical, firepower, protection, and FTL speed advantage over the Federation, and the Vong still beat them.

[TheDarkling]

Sea Skimmer: The NR also had less ability to adapt and was far weaker than the Feds in the planning and execution of a war.

When you simply retreat for 2 years straight and hardly ever mount anything more than a delaying action for a limited evacuation what do you expect to happen?

The Empire would have crushed the Vong because they would have gathered a force (one the NR could have gathered would have done) sent it out to the Rim and crushed the Vong advance force, it was tactics that killed the NR not their numbers or tech.

For a comparission look at it this way - The Borg > Feds, 8472 >Borg yet Feds > 8472, its not always as simple as you would paint it, not when the tech isnt directly comparable.

Anyway im going to get some sleep, be back to face the fire tomorrow.

[Crayz9000]

Phasers dont need to go through the singularities simply not get bent into them by the gravity, phaser can be an FTL weapon when fired at warp, I believe a tech manual (non canon but still) says they are encased in a subspace field thus they could be modded to always be contiained in the subsapce field and thus be ftl (or at least avoid the affect of gravity to a large extent).

The one problem is that tachyons cannot interact with baryons, meaning that a phaser fired at warp can only hit another ship at warp.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Vong have a few thousand ships and they are going to hit every Fed,Klingon,Cardy,Romulan and Dominion world at the same time??? yeah righ they are out numbered about 20 to 1 (if not 30 or 40) even just with the FKR they are out numbered 5 to 1.

They nearly outnumbered the fleets of the galaxy at the time, they have at least ten thousand ships, IMHO.

On the subspace issue - continue to lie about what I have said, you seem to enjoy it (have fun).

Then explain, as I asked before and you responded by this broken record crap.

Yorrik Coral is rock, Phaser love rock and Xwing blasts have hulled frigates before so I hardly think that Yorik COrall can take multi GT fire power and remain intact.

Describing something as rocky does not make it rock. Torps hulled frigates, not lasers. Yorik Coral is not rock and has sustained turbolaser hits multiple times.

The first attack will occur everywhere at the same time (thats a max of 3 ships per fed world), they will also get a map from nowhere (since the feds dont know they are coming, yet teh Vong know alot about the Feds somehow).

Realistic combat will involve infiltrators. As we've seen.

I meant Vong holdings in Fed space woul be ttacked, I assumed you would understand this... I was wrong.

By what? They Yuuzhan Vong outnumber and are stronger then the Fed ships, and they'll attack across the Federation due to hyperspace advantage. That hard to understand?

The arms are creatures.

Why is an explanation needed - you have seen trek right? you do realise they eat gravitic annomalies for breakfast right?

"Spatial anomally" and "wormhole" are not equivalent to actual blackholes, you can't just wish or technobabble it away with pure words and underpowered antigrav.