Does Star Trek Have Any Chance AT ALL?!

[tempest]

The only ground space gun they had was an Ion Cannon (sensible choice) which would be useless vs a rock. Nobody is expecting an asteroid drop, so nobody would bother preparing for it. they just clean out the dangerous ones in system, probably a low paying job in the SW universe.

So the point is that if their shield isnt going to handle it, they're not going to spend the credits setting up a guns all over, and manning them.

So did you completely ignore my post? There are numerous methods to destroy incoming asteriods (ground turbolasers, armed satellites, mines) and most systems of any significance would have something along those lines, with or without shields.

As to your "it wouldn't normally happen, so they don't bother with manned defense" arguement, do I even have to point out how stupid that is? Why did midevil castles have arrow slots and murder holes? missile ships AA-guns? Presidents secret service escort? Even if a defense is likely never to be needed, it will often still exist, becuase if it doesn't, your screwed. Its called foresight. :roll:

I didnt ignore the post, But we dont vaccinate against smallpox anymore because it isnt a plausible threat. We dont carry guns in case of bears anymore. The weapons are going to be againt the threat of the time. So the point is that the cash is going to go to a shield that can easliy handle an asteroid well before they need a manned gun.

So what I'm saying is that a person who wants to save their valuables may buy a steel lockbox, or upgrade to a safe, or upgrade to a safe with armed guards, but wont upgrade to a steel box with armed guards, because its just stupid.
So if you have a nice prybar to deal with a steel box, you probably dont need to worry about guards.
The only time you see a steel box being guarded is when something unexpectedly valuable is inside.


The big problem with destroying them incoming is that they are phase-wank cloaked, so you cant even touch them until they uncloak..

[Noble Ire]

So what I'm saying is that a person who wants to save their valuables may buy a steel lockbox, or upgrade to a safe, or upgrade to a safe with armed guards, but wont upgrade to a steel box with armed guards, because its just stupid.
So if you have a nice prybar to deal with a steel box, you probably dont need to worry about guards.
The only time you see a steel box being guarded is when something unexpectedly valuable is inside.

So, the population of a planet isn't valuable to you?
Come to think of it, I know places where lockboxes have armed guards. They're called banks, you moron.

I didnt ignore the post, But we dont vaccinate against smallpox anymore because it isnt a plausible threat. We dont carry guns in case of bears anymore. The weapons are going to be againt the threat of the time. So the point is that the cash is going to go to a shield that can easliy handle an asteroid well before they need a manned gun.

If you'd actually paid attention to the movies or read any of the EU or source material, you'd know that the SW galaxy is a very volitile and dangerous place. Be it galactic governments, corporations, hell, even pirates have the capability to BDZ planets. Sometimes, especially if your an out of the way planet, or not directly affiliated with a larger entity, you need more than planetary shields to defend a world. If you don't have a fleet, you want something left to protect you when the invaders finally wear down your planetary shield.

The big problem with destroying them incoming is that they are phase-wank cloaked, so you cant even touch them until they uncloak..

Wait, when has any AQ power shown the ability to phase-cloak an object the size of a decent asteroid? Even if they could, how would they apply the technology to it unnoticed? Put a warp drive on it too? Why not drop the asteroid entirely, and just make a big suicide ship?

[Surlethe]

I'm figuring quite a few wouldnt bother, if Echo base is any indication the money is better spent on shielding. Besides who really wants to have some imperial gunners not blasting an escape pod with no life forms on board. They don't do the whole automatic gunning thing, so most of the time the gunner is kicking back with coffee waiting to hear a beep, check the beep, realize that it's the 5000th beep that meant nothing and continue drinking coffee.

However, Echo base is not an indication, because Echo base was on an otherwise uninhabited planet. How the hell do you think you can take an otherwise uninhabited, low profile, ad-hoc rebel base and draw an inference from that to a semi-major population center?

Besdes the big point was that they seem to REALLY undereqip ground forces anyway.. Think about it, In order not to create monster craters you need to be in the sub-kiloton range of damage, that puts you in the 1/billion disadvantage to troop transport. For a single gun on a snowspeeder, or their big ol' turrets, that seem really big but dont do a whole lot.

Ground forces are totally fucking irrelevant, moron; get that through your asinine skull. If we're discussing coastal defenses against enemy ships, we don't do it by dissecting assault rifles or machine guns.

The only ground space gun they had was an Ion Cannon (sensible choice) which would be useless vs a rock. Nobody is expecting an asteroid drop, so nobody would bother preparing for it. they just clean out the dangerous ones in system, probably a low paying job in the SW universe.

Did I ever claim they were expecting an asteroid drop, you strawmanning fucktard? Does it not occur to your pin-sized brain guns might already exist which serve other purposes than shooting rocks out of the sky, like shooting ships out of the sky?

So the point is that if their shield isnt going to handle it, they're not going to spend the credits setting up a guns all over, and manning them.

I suppose to a retarded banana this point might fly, but if you followed that logic an iota further, you'd see it has no bearing whatsoever to the Star Wars universe. Planets like Coruscant are incapable of surviving isolated from the rest of the galaxy, so even if they're invulnerable to direct attack, they are vulnerable to siege; ergo, a shield isn't going to cut it when dealing with enemy ships. You can't sit inside the shield invulnerable, because you're going to starve to death; instead, you need some way to drive the enemy ships off. Guess what? Guns.

[tempest]

So what I'm saying is that a person who wants to save their valuables may buy a steel lockbox, or upgrade to a safe, or upgrade to a safe with armed guards, but wont upgrade to a steel box with armed guards, because its just stupid.
So if you have a nice prybar to deal with a steel box, you probably dont need to worry about guards.
The only time you see a steel box being guarded is when something unexpectedly valuable is inside.

So, the population of a planet isn't valuable to you? :roll:
Come to think of it, I know places where lockboxes have armed guards. They're called banks, you moron.

Really, and I thought that banks had safes. shows what I know.

And as far as the population goes, how do get them, or do anything useful with them. Assuming of course that your a bloodthirsty bastard with hate for the empire?

I didnt ignore the post, But we dont vaccinate against smallpox anymore because it isnt a plausible threat. We dont carry guns in case of bears anymore. The weapons are going to be againt the threat of the time. So the point is that the cash is going to go to a shield that can easliy handle an asteroid well before they need a manned gun.

If you'd actually paid attention to the movies or read any of the EU or source material, you'd know that the SW galaxy is a very volitile and dangerous place. Be it galactic governments, corporations, hell, even pirates have the capability to BDZ planets. Sometimes, especially if your an out of the way planet, or not directly affiliated with a larger entity, you need more than planetary shields to defend a world. If you don't have a fleet, you want something left to protect you when the invaders finally wear down your planetary shield.

Yea, no shit sherlock....... but if your shields cant take a frickin asteroid, then your already up the creek. Getting guns at that point is like putting a 10k stereo into a ford pinto.

The big problem with destroying them incoming is that they are phase-wank cloaked, so you cant even touch them until they uncloak..

Wait, when has any AQ power shown the ability to phase-cloak an object the size of a decent asteroid? Even if they could, how would they apply the technology to it unnoticed? Put a warp drive on it too? Why not drop the asteroid entirely, and just make a big suicide ship? :roll:

Um the AQ phase cloak was part of the scenario.... But the limits on the PQ are a a total unknown, so I'm having some fun with it. Of course this part leaves me in the no-limits dogpile. The bonus to the whole phase cloak is that it doesnt need energy to maintain phase change. But it does need energy to exit, and some wankotron-particles.

As for the Warp drive, it wont build momentum, so you have to go impulse, so at that stage you have to go after planets, because everything else is too fluid.
The problem with making a suicide ship is that ST doesnt have jack for power, so even if you de-cloak, and blow up under their shields it isnt a whole lotta boom.

An asteroid impact at near relativistic speeds could cause a whole lotta boom.

[Noble Ire]

Really, and I thought that banks had safes. shows what I know.

Are you honestly stupid enough to think that was a comeback of any worth? Address my point, don't bandy about sematics.

And as far as the population goes, how do get them, or do anything useful with them. Assuming of course that your a bloodthirsty bastard with hate for the empire?

What the hell? Are you saying that the Empire doesn't have any need of the populations it controls? And that second sentance didn't make any sense at all.

Yea, no shit sherlock....... but if your shields cant take a frickin asteroid, then your already up the creek. Getting guns at that point is like putting a 10k stereo into a ford pinto.

What? Of course shields can stop asteroids. When did I say they couldn't? The point is that you need more than just shields to effectively defend a world, be it defense guns, or a fleet.

As for the Warp drive, it wont build momentum, so you have to go impulse, so at that stage you have to go after planets, because everything else is too fluid.

The point, since you obviously missed it, was the fact that the Feds couldn't even outfit the asteroid in the first place. Do you honestly think any system government, upon detected a bunch of (barely, by comparison) armed starships hanging about their local asteroid field for hours or days, wouldn't send someone to investigate?

The problem with making a suicide ship is that ST doesnt have jack for power, so even if you de-cloak, and blow up under their shields it isnt a whole lotta boom.

I was being sarcastic.

[tempest]

Really, and I thought that banks had safes. shows what I know.

Are you honestly stupid enough to think that was a comeback of any worth? Address my point, don't bandy about sematics.

Semantics? WTF, a lockbox and a safe arent even the same thing. one is a cheap metal box that keeps your kids and spouse out of your stuff. the other keeps thieves out. Saying that the guards are guarding a lockbox is a bit jacked. as per my POINT about HIRING GUARDS FOR A LOCKBOX BEING JACKED. So you NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE SEMANTICS TO BEGIN WITH YOU TWIT.

And as far as the population goes, how do get them, or do anything useful with them. Assuming of course that your a bloodthirsty bastard with hate for the empire?

:wtf:
What the hell? Are you saying that the Empire doesn't have any need of the populations it controls? And that second sentance didn't make any sense at all.

Um I was looking at it from an AQ point of view, so I didnt really answer your the question you were trying to ask. I answered the question I thought you asked.

Yea, no shit sherlock....... but if your shields cant take a frickin asteroid, then your already up the creek. Getting guns at that point is like putting a 10k stereo into a ford pinto.

What? Of course shields can stop asteroids. When did I say they couldn't? The point is that you need more than just shields to effectively defend a world, be it defense guns, or a fleet.

Well there wouldnt be a whole lot of point in ramming a shield really hard. So the point was hitting a spot that might actually penetrate. And if it could penetrate then the likelyhood of extra defenses being available to repel said asteroid is low.

As for the Warp drive, it wont build momentum, so you have to go impulse, so at that stage you have to go after planets, because everything else is too fluid.

The point, since you obviously missed it, was the fact that the Feds couldn't even outfit the asteroid in the first place. Do you honestly think any system government, upon detected a bunch of (barely, by comparison) armed starships hanging about their local asteroid field for hours or days, wouldn't send someone to investigate?

um not if theyre cloaked.

The problem with making a suicide ship is that ST doesnt have jack for power, so even if you de-cloak, and blow up under their shields it isnt a whole lotta boom.

I was being sarcastic. :roll:

[/quote]
sure ya were.

[Stark]

I don't get this. This thread - like others - has devolved into an incredibly unlikely scenario which will probably result in the extermination of all Federation citizens in hours after the attack. Is this winning?

When suicidal fanwhores attack, I always wonder if they're really the sort of people who are prepared to destroy their entire nation or culture for an essentially meaningless terrorist attack. Like having the Empire annex your territory is that bad.

[Surlethe]

Hey, tempest: nice to see you ignoring my points, jackass.

[tempest]

I don't get this. This thread - like others - has devolved into an incredibly unlikely scenario which will probably result in the extermination of all Federation citizens in hours after the attack. Is this winning?

When suicidal fanwhores attack, I always wonder if they're really the sort of people who are prepared to destroy their entire nation or culture for an essentially meaningless terrorist attack. Like having the Empire annex your territory is that bad.

Um isnt this Star Wars vs Star Trek? or was I horribly mistaken?

its kinda dumb to watch ultimate fighting if they just go shake hands and hug.

[tempest]

Hey, tempest: nice to see you ignoring my points, jackass.

um yea, I wrote a reply to someone else and got a pop.. it's been like 40ish minutes.

[Noble Ire]

Semantics? WTF, a lockbox and a safe arent even the same thing. one is a cheap metal box that keeps your kids and spouse out of your stuff. the other keeps thieves out. Saying that the guards are guarding a lockbox is a bit jacked. as per my POINT about HIRING GUARDS FOR A LOCKBOX BEING JACKED. So you NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE SEMANTICS TO BEGIN WITH YOU TWIT.

I'm a twit? My my, I'm going to have to mull the irony of that one over for a bit.

In short, you seemed to be fixated on demanding that the thing that keeps millions of civilians from dying via particle beam is less important than a safe for money or something, and is thus it is unecissary to supplement it with added measures. I don't think I need to point out how skewed your morals have to be to actually believe that. But I don't think you believe that, your just desperately trying to defend a ridiculous and untenable position.

Well there wouldnt be a whole lot of point in ramming a shield really hard. So the point was hitting a spot that might actually penetrate. And if it could penetrate then the likelyhood of extra defenses being available to repel said asteroid is low.

Why? If someone climbs over all wall, does that mean their suddenly envolnurable to bullets?

um not if theyre cloaked.

How do you propose to build something that requires an attached cloak, without actually having to attach the system? The construction effort would be visible, even if the ships tending were not.

sure ya were

You really are a troll, aren't you?

[Surlethe]

Hey, tempest: nice to see you ignoring my points, jackass.

um yea, I wrote a reply to someone else and got a pop.. it's been like 40ish minutes.

So address my points, then, you evasive little shit.

[tempest]

Hey, tempest: nice to see you ignoring my points, jackass.

ok, I'm not saying that the important planets dont need guns, or well funded planets.

But if you have some backwater underfunded planet with jweak or no shields the likelyhood of having a fully manned anti ship weapon are exceedingly small.

And presumably mines in space arent going to do jack to something in phase cloak.

So that means that even with some stupid advantages the AQ can only scratch the imperials in some of their soft spots..

Now which points am I ignoring? and which points am I simply agreeing with because theyre self evident?

[tempest]

Hey, tempest: nice to see you ignoring my points, jackass.

um yea, I wrote a reply to someone else and got a pop.. it's been like 40ish minutes.

So address my points, then, you evasive little shit.

patience danielsan...

[Surlethe]

Hey, tempest: nice to see you ignoring my points, jackass.

ok, I'm not saying that the important planets dont need guns, or well funded planets.

But if you have some backwater underfunded planet with jweak or no shields the likelyhood of having a fully manned anti ship weapon are exceedingly small.

Unfortunately, the planets which are backwater, underfunded, with no shields aren't going to do jack shit emotionally or economically to an Empire which doesn't notice when a star goes supernova and wipes out an entire system, unless the Emperor wants to play it up as a propaganda piece. So, if you're gunning for the asteroid tactic, you're stuck doing it against a planet which does matter to the Empire, and that means the Core, which are both well-shielded and well-armed.

And presumably mines in space arent going to do jack to something in phase cloak.

So that means that even with some stupid advantages the AQ can only scratch the imperials in some of their soft spots..

A backwater planet is hardly a soft spot. Nobody cares if Backwardsass IV drops off the map, you idiot.

Now which points am I ignoring? and which points am I simply agreeing with because theyre self evident?

You're still ignoring my points about your atrocious logic comparing Echo base to an Imperial world, and your asinine comparisons of small arms to planetary defense weaponry.

[tempest]

Ok maybe I'm a bit size centric here, but the Big guns on HOTH, WTF? What sorta retard defends a base with weapons that are so beyond inadequate when you have the full blown guns right there.

Heck you could have some little POS ship with a dinky gun go and trash the AT-AT's.. I'm not talking the fricking hand-helds here.

I was talking about the Big fricking artillery peices that dont appear to do squat.

So either Some Guy in purchasing bought these child grade weapons, or their weapons have some sorta issue. Because they should scale down to something usefull without being junk.

[tempest]

Hey, tempest: nice to see you ignoring my points, jackass.

ok, I'm not saying that the important planets dont need guns, or well funded planets.

But if you have some backwater underfunded planet with jweak or no shields the likelyhood of having a fully manned anti ship weapon are exceedingly small.

Unfortunately, the planets which are backwater, underfunded, with no shields aren't going to do jack shit emotionally or economically to an Empire which doesn't notice when a star goes supernova and wipes out an entire system, unless the Emperor wants to play it up as a propaganda piece. So, if you're gunning for the asteroid tactic, you're stuck doing it against a planet which does matter to the Empire, and that means the Core, which are both well-shielded and well-armed.

And presumably mines in space arent going to do jack to something in phase cloak.

So that means that even with some stupid advantages the AQ can only scratch the imperials in some of their soft spots..

A backwater planet is hardly a soft spot. Nobody cares if Backwardsass IV drops off the map, you idiot.

Really not a soft spot, so if not there, where?
I never claimed that people would care, it's just the only target arguably in reach.

[Surlethe]

Ok maybe I'm a bit size centric here, but the Big guns on HOTH, WTF? What sorta retard defends a base with weapons that are so beyond inadequate when you have the full blown guns right there.

Heck you could have some little POS ship with a dinky gun go and trash the AT-AT's.. I'm not talking the fricking hand-helds here.

I was talking about the Big fricking artillery peices that dont appear to do squat.

So either Some Guy in purchasing bought these child grade weapons, or their weapons have some sorta issue. Because they should scale down to something usefull without being junk.

So let's see some screenshots of these "huge artillery pieces", the kind which would be doing surface-orbit defense fire, not being used worth shit.

Really not a soft spot, so if not there, where?
I never claimed that people would care, it's just the only target arguably in reach.

So are you going to concede? Or no?

[tempest]

Ok maybe I'm a bit size centric here, but the Big guns on HOTH, WTF? What sorta retard defends a base with weapons that are so beyond inadequate when you have the full blown guns right there.

Heck you could have some little POS ship with a dinky gun go and trash the AT-AT's.. I'm not talking the fricking hand-helds here.

I was talking about the Big fricking artillery peices that dont appear to do squat.

So either Some Guy in purchasing bought these child grade weapons, or their weapons have some sorta issue. Because they should scale down to something usefull without being junk.

So let's see some screenshots of these "huge artillery pieces", the kind which would be doing surface-orbit defense fire, not being used worth shit.

Really not a soft spot, so if not there, where?
I never claimed that people would care, it's just the only target arguably in reach.

So are you going to concede? Or no?

Big not huge.
http://www.telcom.es/~jcastjr/starwars/hoth.jpg
But large enough in scale to be within an order of magnatude of an X-wing gun. And by rights an X-wing should bring about 200Gigatons as per one of the guys here. But this thing isnt even in the close to the KT range..

So I'm not planning to concede unless someone can make a reasonable explaintion as to why the rebel big guns is so inordinatly (inexplicably) weak. Because these arent little hand-helds.

I'm not saying that these are the turbo-lasers that would go anti-ship or anti-asteroid, just that scaling these little guys, and adding turrets up sure as heck wont cover it... And the ground based Ion Cannon wont do it. And there must be some reason they werent using adequate sized guns on Hoth.

[jareth1138]

Maybe it is because the SECRET Rebel base was a SECRET!!!!

IF your moving heavy weapons around, somebody will notice of course.

Also the base wasn't fully operation to begin with, they had just finished moving in. Anyway why devote such costly resources into a base you would have to abandon so soon?

Also AT-AT armor was built to take anything short of orbital bombardment. That would be the point behind building a towering all terrain armored transport. I believe it was designed to be a symbol of terror and power all in one. Meaning that it is really tough, thus the rebel tower cannons were probably powerful, but nothing compared to the weaponry that would really hurt the AT-AT.

[Surlethe]

Big not huge.
http://www.telcom.es/~jcastjr/starwars/hoth.jpg
But large enough in scale to be within an order of magnatude of an X-wing gun. And by rights an X-wing should bring about 200Gigatons as per one of the guys here. But this thing isnt even in the close to the KT range..

Hey, retard: in case it escaped you, X-Wing guns don't have the same energy output as fucking heavy turbolasers.

So I'm not planning to concede unless someone can make a reasonable explaintion as to why the rebel big guns is so inordinatly (inexplicably) weak. Because these arent little hand-helds.

What the fuck makes you think that gun would be used an anti-ship weapon, you dipshit troll?

I'm not saying that these are the turbo-lasers that would go anti-ship or anti-asteroid, just that scaling these little guys, and adding turrets up sure as heck wont cover it...

And why the fuck not?

And the ground based Ion Cannon wont do it. And there must be some reason they werent using adequate sized guns on Hoth.

Perhaps because they were travelling light and trying to keep a low profile; or maybe you missed the fact this was a secret hideout?

[Noble Ire]

Perhaps because they were travelling light and trying to keep a low profile; or maybe you missed the fact this was a secret hideout?

Or perhaps its the fact that Echo base was in part directly under the battlefield, a point the troll has not yet addressed.

That aside, I don't even know what he's arguing anymore, he seems to just be randomly lashing out at people who are trying to debate him. WTF does a light anti-armor battery have to do with planetary turbolasers?

[tempest]

Big not huge.
http://www.telcom.es/~jcastjr/starwars/hoth.jpg
But large enough in scale to be within an order of magnatude of an X-wing gun. And by rights an X-wing should bring about 200Gigatons as per one of the guys here. But this thing isnt even in the close to the KT range..

Hey, retard: in case it escaped you, X-Wing guns don't have the same energy output as fucking heavy turbolasers.

Yea, but squadrons of Xwings can down a Star-destroyer, meaning that theyre in the GT range for weapons.

So I'm not planning to concede unless someone can make a reasonable explaintion as to why the rebel big guns is so inordinatly (inexplicably) weak. Because these arent little hand-helds.

What the fuck makes you think that gun would be used an anti-ship weapon, you dipshit troll?

I'm not saying that these are the turbo-lasers that would go anti-ship or anti-asteroid, just that scaling these little guys, and adding turrets up sure as heck wont cover it...

And why the fuck not?

because these little guys are barely KT level guns. If they were KT level guns they could drop the AT-AT's into big assed craters. To get into the 200 GT range you would be looking at having 200 million of these POS guns just to manage the power of a lowly Star-wars gun.

And the ground based Ion Cannon wont do it. And there must be some reason they werent using adequate sized guns on Hoth.

Perhaps because they were travelling light and trying to keep a low profile; or maybe you missed the fact this was a secret hideout?

Um having a weapon that is millions of times weaker than a ship gun is not traveling heavy. It shouldnt raise an eyebrow. 200Kt weapons would have been leaving the poor AT-AT's in holes.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Sci ... roids.html

Take a look at the cratering energy required for a reasonable sized hole in ice. And figure out the crater a GT grade laser can manage.

it isnt pretty.

[tempest]

Perhaps because they were travelling light and trying to keep a low profile; or maybe you missed the fact this was a secret hideout?

Or perhaps its the fact that Echo base was in part directly under the battlefield, a point the troll has not yet addressed.

That aside, I don't even know what he's arguing anymore, he seems to just be randomly lashing out at people who are trying to debate him. WTF does a light anti-armor battery have to do with planetary turbolasers?

Heck at this point I'm just trying to figure out if the weapons of SW are so bloody powerful, and the AT-ATs were miles and miles away what was the stinkin problem.. They weren't on top of the base when they entered the shield. Do they have some sort of problem firing a big assed gun in the atmosphere? do they buy guns that were out of date years ago, did they bury treasure where the AT-ATS were standing? Something isnt adding up... and nobody seems to have a bloody answer, and just seems to dismiss the weirdness that is the uber-low powered guns of the battle of hoth.

[jareth1138]

You blathering idiot...

The guns are powerful compared to other Sci Fi series.

The reason their so underpowered or appeared to be is because their technological equivilant.

Its like trying to kill a elephant with a short sword.

The guns were out of date because the GALATIC Empire has total control over all weapon factories and the only avaliable weapons are on the black market meaning the weapons are out of date.

Its a Rebellion not a Empire Vs a Empire. Think about it, if I control all factories producing heavy weapons I would make sure I know where every single one of those heavy weapons were, so of course the Rebels get outdated and inferior weapons, not to mention they're working on a short budget.