Hyperdrive vs. Borg Transwarp - take 2

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Re: Hyperdrive vs. Borg Transwarp - take 2

Post by jegs2 »

vivftp wrote:Ok, since the last thread was recently closed and I was asked to make a new one, here we are :)...
Well, didn't see you arrive to SD.NET from the Spacebattles forum, so, although your official welcome packet from Grey Six may be a bit late ...




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Post by PayBack »

NecronLord wrote:
apocolypse wrote:Yeah, IIRC there was a discussion here on SDN where one of the members (can't recall the name) discussed the issue with Saxton some time back via email, and I think Saxton clarified it similarly.

The point you brought up with the V-wings is interesting, I hadn't payed attention to that one before.
This was me. The opinion and authorial intent of Dr. Saxton was that the shuttle boarded a faster vessel:
Dr. Saxton wrote:This is a good query. The hyperdrive range is not an error. As the
nautical name implies, a "shuttle" is not meant for long-range travel.
This kind of ship shuttles people between nearby ports or between a
mothership and a port.

Palpatine's Theta-class shuttle in ROTS has approximately the same
capabilities as his Lambda-class shuttle in ROTJ.

* In ROTJ, he voyaged from Coruscant to the Outer Rim aboard the
Executor. He used his shuttle to transfer from Coruscant to Executor, and
then from Executor to the Death Star 2.

* In ROTS, he used a Theta-class shuttle to transfer from Coruscant to
another large mothership (unseen in the film), which jumped to Mustafar.
He takes the shuttle down to the surface to collect Vader, and returns to
the mothership. This ship then jumps back to Coruscant, etc.

.......

The same is true of the V-wing fighters that escort the shuttle to its
landing in Imperial City. They deploy from the naval vessel. A manned
fighter that size is incapable of hyperdrive, and needs to ride a larger
ship or hyperdrive ring. No amount of expense can avoid the physical
limitation.

The visual dictionary was wrong (confused) on that point. This is
pardonable because all the writers are buffeted by suggestions from many
quarters (some of them ill-informed) and the manuscripts need to be
finalised months before the film is finished!

If (off camera) any of the V-wings _had_ jumped in parallel to Palpatine's
flagship (rather than riding it) then they must have used hyperdrive
rings. This is a redundant point; I believe there wasn't any such jump
filmed (let alone filmed & cut). I specifically sought confirmation from
LF when I was writing ROTS:ICS.

[...]

PS: I was never given any reference images for the appearance of
Palpatine's flagship in ROTS. That subject wasn't ready at the time when
the ROTS:ICS manuscript deadline.

If I were forced to guess, the ship is probably something like what
carried Palpatine, Vader and Tarkin on their inspection of the Separatist
"Great Weapon". The curved bridge interior seen at the end of the film is
inconsistent with all the surfaces of the Venator destroyers (which only
allow for rectangular bridge structures).

Since the exterior of this ship never appears on-screen, I guess that it's
now unlikely to be developed and shown in any medium. :( If we're
extremely lucky, someone might include late-developed concept art on the
DVD extras. With few constraints, apart from KDY architecture, I imageine
that the ship could be like any of the large multi-mile vessels we've
already seen in the literature. It should be whatever is the Clone Wars
equivalent of the Executor; maybe a Mandator-II.
He loves his Mandators. :wink:
"Palpatine's Theta-class shuttle in ROTS has approximately the same
capabilities as his Lambda-class shuttle in ROTJ."

Just out of curiosity, how far away were the rebels when they jumped to Endor? Luke and Co went by Lamda class shuttle, and I thought that was way more than 8000 LYs.
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Post by Vicious »

PayBack wrote:Just out of curiosity, how far away were the rebels when they jumped to Endor? Luke and Co went by Lamda class shuttle, and I thought that was way more than 8000 LYs.
The fleet is stated in the film as "massing at Sullust". This map shows Sullust to be along the Rimma Trade Route, just coreward of the Seswenna Sector. We know the Star Wars galaxy is larger than our own, so assuming a 50% size increase, that gives us a rough diameter of 225,000 lys. Further, the Star Wars galaxy is an ellipse, and the Sullust-Endor route is on the short axis. Call it 150,000 lys along the short axis for a rough approximation. Endor lies at the edge of the galaxy, while Sullust lies almost exactly along the long axis, so dividing the short axis gives us a rough distance between the two of 75,000 lys.

Using this, we can extrapolate the flight time of the shuttle Tydirium (and thus the Rebel fleet) from the approx. time from when the Tydirium leaves the fleet to when it arrives at Endor. Han and crew did not appear to be prepared for an unduly lengthy trip, nor did they appear to have shifted positions or moved about signifigantly while in transit. Given that, a maximum flight time of one to two hours seems reasonable. This puts their flight speed at 37,500 ly/h-75,000 ly/h. Here arises an inconsistency, as the Tydirium was a standard Lambda-class shuttle, indentical to the one Palpatine used. It's rated range is far to small too have made the trip to Endor from Sullust. They obviously didn't employ a transit vessel, so we must conclude that the Rebels augmented the shuttle with an improved hyperdrive and corresponding navicomputer. I think it is safe to assume that they wouldn't go to undue lengths to enhance anything except it's range, so we can assume a similar Class-1 hyperdrive with greater range was installed. This still puts the standard Imperial military vessel at between 37,500 and 75,000 ly/h.

Mind you, all these numbers are not fixed or precise. I'm just going by what I can interpret from the map provided and what I know of the rough size of the Star Wars galaxies. Still, they should give us something to go on and they seem to fit the rough flight times outlined for the Coruscant-Mustafar trip (which was stated to be roughly the same distance).
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Post by Vympel »

The Star Wars galaxy isn't 50% larger than ours, it's 120,000LY in diameter.
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Post by Vicious »

Vympel wrote:The Star Wars galaxy isn't 50% larger than ours, it's 120,000LY in diameter.
Well, that wrenches things. I remember in a thread awhile back someone hypothesizing that the Star Wars galaxy was signifigantly larger than our own, so I took 50% as an approximate. That would mean, assuming the rest of my reasoning is valid, that the Sullust-Endor trip is approx. 40,000 lys, and thus dropping the upper limit for a Class-1 hyperdrive to between 20,000 ly/h and 40,000 ly/h. It also invalidates the running time-stamp of a couple hours for the Mustafar-Coruscant run, since that was commented as being over 70,000 lys.

One thing I'd like analysed is my interpretation of the dimensions of the Star Wars galaxy. To me, it appears ellipsoid and I'm using the 120,000 ly figure for the long axis, with roughly 80,000 ly for the short. Again, if anyone can come up with a more accurate model, please do so.
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Post by Wyrm »

Vicious wrote:One thing I'd like analysed is my interpretation of the dimensions of the Star Wars galaxy. To me, it appears ellipsoid and I'm using the 120,000 ly figure for the long axis, with roughly 80,000 ly for the short. Again, if anyone can come up with a more accurate model, please do so.
A spiral galaxy's disk would have a uniform radius, and therefore the SW galaxy would be 120,000 ly in diameter all around. Remember that you're not guaranteed a face-on view in the maps (even though it would be the most useful view), but there are good physical reasons for assuming that any large galaxy would have a circular face-on profile. It's only the small irregulars that break this pattern.
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Post by PayBack »

Regardless, it does show the lambda class as having a range much greater than 8000 LY. Is there a reason to assume it was modified rather than take the longer range as being standard?
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Post by apocolypse »

PayBack wrote:Regardless, it does show the lambda class as having a range much greater than 8000 LY. Is there a reason to assume it was modified rather than take the longer range as being standard?
Actually, no it doesn't. The range is 8,000 LY. However, Palpatine's shuttle was carried aboard a larger hyperspace capable ship in both occasions. That's how he's able to traverse a longer route.
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Post by Vicious »

apocolypse wrote:
PayBack wrote:Regardless, it does show the lambda class as having a range much greater than 8000 LY. Is there a reason to assume it was modified rather than take the longer range as being standard?
Actually, no it doesn't. The range is 8,000 LY. However, Palpatine's shuttle was carried aboard a larger hyperspace capable ship in both occasions. That's how he's able to traverse a longer route.
The Tydirium made a trip far greater than 8000 lys going from Sullust to Endor. Since it is a Lambda-class shuttle identical to Palpatine's shuttle in ROTJ and functionally similar to the Theta-class shuttle he uses in ROTS, we must assume that modifications were made to it for the trip, or that the official statements about it's range are false, which we have no reason to do. We see from Episode I that replacing a hyperdrive isn't something which requires extensive facilities or lots of equipment; Obi-wan was able to affect such repairs in the desert of Tatooine, after all.
Wyrm wrote: A spiral galaxy's disk would have a uniform radius, and therefore the SW galaxy would be 120,000 ly in diameter all around. Remember that you're not guaranteed a face-on view in the maps (even though it would be the most useful view), but there are good physical reasons for assuming that any large galaxy would have a circular face-on profile. It's only the small irregulars that break this pattern.
D'oh! Now I feel really stupid. :oops: Well, given that I can't read a damn map, I'll stop trying to figure out the travel distance for the Sullust to Endor trip.
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Post by Lord Revan »

ot's possible that the modifications to Emperor's shuttle (in ROTJ) have reduced it's range rather then Tydirium having extra range (the Emperor's shuttle is not a Standard Lambda-class)
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Post by PayBack »

apocolypse wrote:
PayBack wrote:Regardless, it does show the lambda class as having a range much greater than 8000 LY. Is there a reason to assume it was modified rather than take the longer range as being standard?
Actually, no it doesn't. The range is 8,000 LY. However, Palpatine's shuttle was carried aboard a larger hyperspace capable ship in both occasions. That's how he's able to traverse a longer route.
I wasn't referring to Palpatine shuttle, I was referring to the Luke and Co on their way from Sullust to Endor. Their shuttle was not carried and flew well over 8000 LY. Hence my questioning whether it was more reasonable to assume the 8000 LY range was inaccurate rather than assume the shuttle was unmodified. Especially considering they scanned the shuttle and modifications would have increased the chance of them getting a second look.. something they would have wanted to avoid.
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Post by PayBack »

Please excuse the shocking post above, I was in a hurry as I'm about to leave work. Of course I meant the Lambda Shuttle used by Luke and Co and Hence my questioning whether it was more reasonable to assume the 8000 LY range was inaccurate rather than assume the shuttle was modified
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Post by avatarxprime »

Keep in mind that Palpatine knew the Rebels were coming, shuttle and all. Even if the Rebels had made modifications that were noticeable, it's also possible that Palpatine would have left orders to allow the shuttle through anyway.
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Post by Lord Revan »

avatarxprime wrote:Keep in mind that Palpatine knew the Rebels were coming, shuttle and all. Even if the Rebels had made modifications that were noticeable, it's also possible that Palpatine would have left orders to allow the shuttle through anyway.
true but those mods can't be anything clearly visible (as the rebels didn't know that Palpatine knew). Personally I think that most logical solution is either that standard Lambdas have greater range then the emperor's personal shuttle or that Lambda-class shuttles have the ability to use additional fuel tanks to extend their range at cost of cargo space as standard and the Tydirium had those tanks.
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Post by Bounty »

The Tydirium made a trip far greater than 8000 lys going from Sullust to Endor. Since it is a Lambda-class shuttle identical to Palpatine's shuttle in ROTJ and functionally similar to the Theta-class shuttle he uses in ROTS, we must assume that modifications were made to it for the trip, or that the official statements about it's range are false, which we have no reason to do.
Is it possible that the captured shuttle was of a different configuration to begin with ? A long-range version of the base model ? It seems odd that such a fuss was made about this particular shuttle being captured when they should be quite abundant.
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Post by Vympel »

You guys do know that the Rebel fleet was only hundreds of LY away from the Death Star when it jumped, right? Range is not an issue. RotJ novelization.
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Post by Bounty »

Vympel wrote:You guys do know that the Rebel fleet was only hundreds of LY away from the Death Star when it jumped, right? Range is not an issue. RotJ novelization.
I just noticed that the map above, used to arrive at the 20.000ly figure, is on Supershadow's site. Maybe not the best source...
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Post by Lord Revan »

Bounty wrote:
Vympel wrote:You guys do know that the Rebel fleet was only hundreds of LY away from the Death Star when it jumped, right? Range is not an issue. RotJ novelization.
I just noticed that the map above, used to arrive at the 20.000ly figure, is on Supershadow's site. Maybe not the best source...
the map is official (from NJO books).
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Post by Bounty »

Lord Revan wrote:
Bounty wrote:
Vympel wrote:You guys do know that the Rebel fleet was only hundreds of LY away from the Death Star when it jumped, right? Range is not an issue. RotJ novelization.
I just noticed that the map above, used to arrive at the 20.000ly figure, is on Supershadow's site. Maybe not the best source...
the map is official (from NJO books).
Then why isn't Sullust right on top of Endor ? Or is the NJO map higher in the canon scale ?
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Post by apocolypse »

Lord Revan wrote:
Bounty wrote:
Vympel wrote:You guys do know that the Rebel fleet was only hundreds of LY away from the Death Star when it jumped, right? Range is not an issue. RotJ novelization.
I just noticed that the map above, used to arrive at the 20.000ly figure, is on Supershadow's site. Maybe not the best source...
the map is official (from NJO books).
The map may be official, but it doesn't mean it's without potential error. The RotJ novelizations states, "The vast rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star — but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision. "

I'd have a hard time believing that the book meant anything more than a thousand or so. Otherwise it would have read thousands of LY, as opposed to hundreds.

Bounty, as far as your question, the NJO map to my knowledge isn't higher. The novelizations are below the movies in canon scale, but still above the EU.
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Post by PayBack »

avatarxprime wrote:Keep in mind that Palpatine knew the Rebels were coming, shuttle and all. Even if the Rebels had made modifications that were noticeable, it's also possible that Palpatine would have left orders to allow the shuttle through anyway.
I don't think he left such orders. Piett asked Vader if he should hold them, and Vader only said no because Luke was on board and he wanted to tell the Emperor... and when he did tell the Emperor about the rebels, it was then that Palp tolder Vader he knew... though he didn't know about Luke until told.
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Post by Vicious »

Bounty wrote:
Vympel wrote:You guys do know that the Rebel fleet was only hundreds of LY away from the Death Star when it jumped, right? Range is not an issue. RotJ novelization.
I just noticed that the map above, used to arrive at the 20.000ly figure, is on Supershadow's site. Maybe not the best source...
Supershadow didn't make the map, though. He's simply hosting it. As Revan said, it's from the NJO books.

In regards to the disparity between the book and the map, here is one rationalization: the Rebel fleet moved from Sullust to it's final staging area between when Vader asked Palpatine about the fleet and when the Tydirium launched. There are still some issues, but it seems the big one is remedied if you look at it from that perspective.
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