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Ghost Rider
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Eframepilot wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
OmegaGuy wrote:I never said they all were qaulity storytelling. In fact a ton of them just plain suck. However, even the mediocre to bad ones can still be entertaining.
So's Toy Story...but I would not call the vast majority storytelling aimed at adults.
'
Star Wars isn't aimed at adults either; see Jar Jar Binks and the Ewoks. Anyway, superhero comics today are aimed mostly at their target market, the very few geeks who actually still read them. These are mostly young adults and the older comic book nerds who have been reading/collecting for decades. The morass of continuity is too thick for younger readers, who have largely given up on comic books and gone to other media for entertainment.
Ah, and enters the jaded geek who needs to point out Star Wars is not pure adult entertainment. Glad you're having the point fly so far past your dumbass self, it's hitting China before you're aware of the irony of what you just spewed.

I'm glad you also point out the very flaw people have decryed about comics, but hey...self defeating morons are the best to look and laugh at.
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Post by Cao Cao »

Ghost Rider wrote:Ah, and enters the jaded geek who needs to point out Star Wars is not pure adult entertainment.
You mean my search for Slave Leia porn has been for nothing???
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Post by OmegaGuy »

Darth Servo wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:Anyway, superhero comics today are aimed mostly at their target market, the very few geeks who actually still read them. These are mostly young adults and the older comic book nerds who have been reading/collecting for decades.
In other words, "since they were kids" and they still want and get the same shit they did when they were kids.
Actually, the qaulity of comic writing has, believe it or not, improved a lot in the last few decades (though the old issues are fun, too). It's also been starting to deal with more serious themes, even in the main DCU and MU. For example, Identity Crisis.
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Post by Stark »

No, comic books have tried to become more relevant. The quality of storytelling is still piss-poor. Let's not get into the creative bankruptcy.
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Post by OmegaGuy »

Isn't the quality of storytelling subjective?
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Post by Eframepilot »

Darth Servo wrote:Which only proves it wasn't that powerful of a nuke. A good strong wind can shake a plane. It doesn't take much air to shake something when its entire mass is supported by...air.
You've got to be kidding me. The plane is thousands of feet in the air. For it to feel even a light breeze means that the detonation at ground level was immense. It's simple inverse square law.

It doesn't matter if it was just a puny tactical baby nuke, the point is that Wolverine survived it with only his shirt torn off when he should have been vaporized.
Darth Servo wrote: They've also used it to try and get everything that only happened once in SW thrown out (which would include Jedi invisibility in TPM and the Death Star planet busting blast).
There are always those who try to abuse the rules. It properly applies to events that are totally out of line with a character's normal powers. So if (for instance) Luke just crushed a planet into a black hole with the Force in one comic and never did anything like that again, that would be SMvsFLed.
Ghost Rider wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:Star Wars isn't aimed at adults either; see Jar Jar Binks and the Ewoks. Anyway, superhero comics today are aimed mostly at their target market, the very few geeks who actually still read them. These are mostly young adults and the older comic book nerds who have been reading/collecting for decades. The morass of continuity is too thick for younger readers, who have largely given up on comic books and gone to other media for entertainment.
Ah, and enters the jaded geek who needs to point out Star Wars is not pure adult entertainment. Glad you're having the point fly so far past your dumbass self, it's hitting China before you're aware of the irony of what you just spewed.

I'm glad you also point out the very flaw people have decryed about comics, but hey...self defeating morons are the best to look and laugh at.
What exactly did I say to provoke that hostility? I'm not a regular comic reader. I'm not taking sides so much as pointing out that much of popular science fiction and fantasy is aimed at the same 18-34 (or younger) young male demographic, so arguing over "it's for kids! no it's not!" seems silly. Yes, the superhero comic industry has written itself into a marketing dead end. I don't really care. Comics would be a lot more successful if they were aimed more at kids, but kids today just aren't interested.
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Post by Stark »

Storytelling quality? You mean how Clark and Superman look identical, and yet people like Luthor not only don't think Clark is Superman, they actually get mad and sack people if they try to change his mind?

Yeah, that's fucking epic, mature stuff. I mean, when they decided to kill Superman for attention, they used his greatest villians, right? They didn't just make something up, then spend years totally rewriting that new supervillian character? Right?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Eframepilot wrote:The rule is in place to get rid of the really nutty stuff, like Captain America taking down ICBMs twenty seconds after launch by throwing his shield at them.
This, in a nutshell, is the exact mentality I'm talking about. We're not talking about the very rare isolated incident here; comicbook lore is filled with this kind of bullshit. Individual characters become much more powerful over time, then less powerful, then more powerful again. Mundane things like Captain America's shield become imbued with progressively more and more magical powers, up to and beyond the point of violating fundamental laws of physics in such a manner that we're left with the absurd conclusion that certain inert materials have the ability to make mass/energy and momentum disappear from the space-time continuum.

Anyone who thinks that logical analysis is actually possible in such an environment is on drugs. The fan-whores on CBR simply declare, in a totally arbitrary fashion, that certain acts are beyond an invisible line which they draw in the sand but cannot define in any sort of objective way, and then throw those incidents out and call this "reasonable".
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Post by Eframepilot »

Darth Wong wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:The rule is in place to get rid of the really nutty stuff, like Captain America taking down ICBMs twenty seconds after launch by throwing his shield at them.
This, in a nutshell, is the exact mentality I'm talking about. We're not talking about the very rare isolated incident here; comicbook lore is filled with this kind of bullshit. Individual characters become much more powerful over time, then less powerful, then more powerful again. Mundane things like Captain America's shield become imbued with progressively more and more magical powers, up to and beyond the point of violating fundamental laws of physics in such a manner that we're left with the absurd conclusion that certain inert materials have the ability to make mass/energy and momentum disappear from the space-time continuum.
That's not just an absurd conclusion, it's also the primary property of "vibranium", the magical metal from Wakanda which was supposedly a component in the shield. :P
Anyone who thinks that logical analysis is actually possible in such an environment is on drugs. The fan-whores on CBR simply declare, in a totally arbitrary fashion, that certain acts are beyond an invisible line which they draw in the sand but cannot define in any sort of objective way, and then throw those incidents out and call this "reasonable".
That's more or less true. Debating on CBR is very subjective, and its rules aren't appropriate for more self-consistent continuities. Though a continuity in which Republic intelligence can overestimate the number of enemy battle droids from 100's of millions to quintillions isn't exactly all that consistent itself.
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Post by Darth Wong »

OmegaGuy wrote:I never said the vast majority of comics were aimed at adults, merely a good amount.
Mentally retarded adults, perhaps. Oooh, let's take enough plot and dialogue to make one quarter of a short story, add colourful hand-drawn pictures to it where everyone has "ripped" muscles and all the women have rock-hard asses and big tits, and call it high art for mature adults!

Comicbooks are like professional wrestling. If you acknowledge to yourself that it's stupid and watch it anyway as a guilty pleasure, go right ahead. But deceiving yourself into believing that it's meant for adults is just asinine. And pointing out that Star Wars is also targeted at kids is hardly a fucking revelation; George Lucas himself says so! But despite that, Star Wars is still far more consistent than any comicbook.
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Post by Bounty »

Mentally retarded adults, perhaps. Oooh, let's take enough plot and dialogue to make one quarter of a short story, add colourful hand-drawn pictures to it where everyone has "ripped" muscles and all the women have rock-hard asses and big tits, and call it high art for mature adults!
Just for the record, you're describing the typical, retarded, American superhero wank comic. Those are pretty much limited to the US, the rest of the word *does* have mature comics.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Bounty wrote:
Mentally retarded adults, perhaps. Oooh, let's take enough plot and dialogue to make one quarter of a short story, add colourful hand-drawn pictures to it where everyone has "ripped" muscles and all the women have rock-hard asses and big tits, and call it high art for mature adults!
Just for the record, you're describing the typical, retarded, American superhero wank comic. Those are pretty much limited to the US, the rest of the word *does* have mature comics.
Seriously I gotta love this.

"There are MATURE comics."

No shit, you're telling me there are! Fuck! Must mean though the majority of shit that does come out of Japan and America which comprimises a very large part of the sales of an industry called comics....is still shit.

Unless Diamond Distribuition is wrong...the only market they do not distribute is JAPAN. And unless Europe produces a shadow billion dollar industry that outdoes Japan or America...the notion still stands. The vast majority of comics is shit(and yes, I'm including Japan in this remark). So please Stop with the cherry picking to find *mature* comics.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Eframepilot wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Anyone who thinks that logical analysis is actually possible in such an environment is on drugs. The fan-whores on CBR simply declare, in a totally arbitrary fashion, that certain acts are beyond an invisible line which they draw in the sand but cannot define in any sort of objective way, and then throw those incidents out and call this "reasonable".
That's more or less true. Debating on CBR is very subjective, and its rules aren't appropriate for more self-consistent continuities. Though a continuity in which Republic intelligence can overestimate the number of enemy battle droids from 100's of millions to quintillions isn't exactly all that consistent itself.
Strange that the novel RoTS override Karen Traviss because it's actually canon versus her idiotic notions.

But hey keep trying to strawman dumbfuck.
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Post by NecronLord »

Cao Cao wrote:You mean my search for Slave Leia porn has been for nothing???
Try getting into the BotM. I seem to recall that we had some a while back. :wink:
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Post by Bounty »

And unless Europe produces a shadow billion dollar industry that outdoes Japan or America...the notion still stands. The vast majority of comics is shit(and yes, I'm including Japan in this remark). So please Stop with the cherry picking to find *mature* comics.
The term Bande Dessinée doesn't ring a bell ? An industry in France and the lowlands that has existed since the '20s, and has literally nothing in common with American..."comics" apart from the medium ? You're willing to toss in those ?

Fine.
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Post by Bounty »

Ignore my last post, it's a useless tangent and I didn't get Ghost Rider's post.
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Post by Darth Wong »

This is the problem with the whiny "self-esteem" generation. They're so unaccustomed to put-downs that they cry like babies whenever it happens. You can't even say "smoking is stupid" without some whiny fucktard crying about it and saying you're being unfair, so I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised that the statement "comics are aimed at kids" would generate the same kind of response. Certainly, no one would have blinked an eye at such a comment when I was a kid.

Of course, you can't even call a 15 year old a "kid" any more without someone getting offended. I actually got threatened with suspension for "flaming" once when I did exactly that on a web forum.
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Post by SirNitram »

This comic tangent is so fucking ridiculous.

'DUR, WE IS CBR! WE HAVE RULEZ! DEY SEZ WE IZ RITE!'

That's nice. Run back to CBR. The rest of us are adults, at least part time. I'll openly admit to liking comics without saying 'There's lots of mature comics'; they're unfortunately damn rare, comics for those of us who want more than 'POW! WHAM!'. But their existance doesn't deal with the main thrust: The majority of the comics(And especially the kind being referred to by our CBR Retards) are childish, simplistic, and self-contradictory. They experience more power-creep than RIFTS.

To return to something like the original topic, no you cannot use your stupid, whiny, escape clause from some comic in this debate. There's sufficient consistancy here to work with. Just because your preferred reading material doesn't even try to be consistant doesn't mean you can't level the same at this topic. Are we clear on this, idiots?
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Post by OmegaGuy »

Well I would have to agree that the SMvFL rule doesn't really make much sense in inconsistent universes like Trek or most comics.
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Post by OmegaGuy »

Darth Wong wrote:This is the problem with the whiny "self-esteem" generation. They're so unaccustomed to put-downs that they cry like babies whenever it happens. You can't even say "smoking is stupid" without some whiny fucktard crying about it and saying you're being unfair, so I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised that the statement "comics are aimed at kids" would generate the same kind of response. Certainly, no one would have blinked an eye at such a comment when I was a kid.

Of course, you can't even call a 15 year old a "kid" any more without someone getting offended. I actually got threatened with suspension for "flaming" once when I did exactly that on a web forum.
If it was just a remark about comics themselves, I would have no problem, the thing is that I interpreted it as an insult against the readers of comics, which, according to your later comments, was a misinterpretation, so sorry about that.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

OmegaGuy wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:This is the problem with the whiny "self-esteem" generation. They're so unaccustomed to put-downs that they cry like babies whenever it happens. You can't even say "smoking is stupid" without some whiny fucktard crying about it and saying you're being unfair, so I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised that the statement "comics are aimed at kids" would generate the same kind of response. Certainly, no one would have blinked an eye at such a comment when I was a kid.

Of course, you can't even call a 15 year old a "kid" any more without someone getting offended. I actually got threatened with suspension for "flaming" once when I did exactly that on a web forum.
If it was just a remark about comics themselves, I would have no problem, the thing is that I interpreted it as an insult against the readers of comics, which, according to your later comments, was a misinterpretation, so sorry about that.
It took you a page and a half to realize this:
Darth Wong wrote: Hey dumb-fuck, I'm insulting the level of writing in the comic itself. Although in your case, I'll insult the fan too, for being an asshole and distorting the argument.
Fucking christ on a stick.
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Post by Eleas »

This is my opinion, which admittedly matters less than I'd like, or I'd be running for presidency in a small unnamed Slavic country instead of writing this post. I'd first like to stress that I'm not addressing anyone's specific claims but rather the gist of them, so if anyone feels they're being misrepresented, be at ease.

Comics are all part of a medium, which can be criticised as such. To criticise the limitations of the medium itself is to my mind different from criticising its execution. In other words, what you do with the medium for storytelling purposes doesn't necessarily define what the medium is capable of.

Consider filmed science fiction. Its most common expressions might currently be summed up in "technobabble," "spectacular visuals" and "big explosions." Yet that isn't the sum total of what can be done within SF. Witness movies like Gattaca, Pitch Black and Dark City -- even if you dislike them, you'd be hard pressed to fit them to the stereotypic SF movie mold.

Let's take something a bit more relevant to the topic at hand: cartoons. They're usually typified by either being disney, japanese hentai, or even more incomprehensible japanese power fantasies. But strictly speaking, all the difference there is between cartoons and "real movies" lie in the fact that the cells are drawn rather than filmed. Maybe that's for the best, as those who survived Ralph Bakshi's LotR travesty know what happen if these lines are blurred. :shock:

I'd argue that the medium isn't necessarily at fault. Yes, it's an inherent problem of comics that their format lends itself well to telling stories on the level we're accustomed to see. But this doesn't mean that comics are restricted to that level just because they tend to be insipid and shallow in general. As in sci-fi, there are good kinds and bad kinds (just less of the good, as a rule).

To spurn comics because of stupid plots and over the top action is unfortunately merited in most cases. To claim that the medium itself is (and/or must be) "childish" is, well, probably as valid an opinion as any. But it is one that could easily be applied to many other genres, and strikes me as being derogative just for the heck of it. Because if comics must be stupid, from where does the stupidity then come? Does the act of putting pictures to a story make it less intelligent? No? Is it, then, the reduction of text? If so, movies must be very stupid indeed. Perhaps the lack of motion to the visuals makes it foolish? Personally, I believe that imagining motion between the panels is pretty similar to visualising scenes from a book, of which as a medium I've heard little criticism.

In closing, I'd say the fault lies less with comics as a medium, and more with what the market has done to it. Some have earlier in the thread cited Watchmen and From Hell and been flamed for it (I've read neither). It's evident that you can't use these titles as a gauge for normal comics, but I think it's fair to say that they illustrate the medium's potential. As does series like Blade of the Immortal, Sandman, et cetera.
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Post by LadyTevar »

... Why are we discussing comics in SWvST :?:
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Post by Ghost Rider »

LadyTevar wrote:... Why are we discussing comics in SWvST :?:
Waaaaaaaaaaaaay weird tangent in the first page.

Starts with this statement:
TrekWarsie wrote:One reconciliation with the dialogue that would seem to make sense with the 20 ships destroying the crust in one hour, and the mantle within five is that that the Romulan officer said "30% of the planetary crust", not planet's crust. That could indicate that the officer was referring only to the targeted area, and that would significantly reduce the firepower figures for Trek. It still puts them in the ICS range, but it would at most make an even fight, and there are few other instances of ICS level firepower in Star Trek so they may be Spider-Man vs. Firelord feats. One thing you should have, though, are other feats in SW that support the ICS so your friend doesn't use the SM-v-FL clause on you.
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Post by LeftWingExtremist »

erm aren't we forgetting that a single star destroyer can destroy 100% of the surface by itself in one hour. surely thats enough for the brother to understand.
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