Top 5 technologies to use against the Empire

[Alyeska]

Are you suggesting that they spent an entire Month on the Bridge when we watched the scene go to hell? We see them start up the process and then after a few minutes things go to hell quickly and Voyager drops out and then crashes into a planet. There was absolutely no indication of it having taken a month. Sure, it was screwed up, but my entire point was they somehow manage to get a drive that fast working on their ships. With something that fast they could probably cross the Galaxy in under a day.

Ah, you're thinking of a different episode than I am, then. I'm talking about the trip projections from Dauntless. I presume you're talking about one of those time-travel episodes and an even more dangerous version of slipstream? Let 'em use it; they can annihilate most of their fleet without Imperial intervention that way

It was an episode where Voyager actually used continuity. They back engineered the slipstream from the Dauntless at a future date and used both it and the Delta Flyer in an attempt to make it back to the Federation. They made it to the edge of Alpha Quandrant space in seemingly less then 15 minutes buy Voyager was so heavily damaged it was forced to crash land on a planet killing the crew. The DF crew made it back to Federation space then attempted to change history. Captain Geordi of the USS Challenger (Galaxy class) attempted to stop them.

That was one of the few well done episodes.

[Darth Servo]

The ship itself contains all of the technology to make the spatial rift Barclay used. They don't need any fundamental advances in hardware, just in software (and wetware).

Picard didn't think so. It would take them decades to begin to scratch the surface of understanding the technology.

The "Timeless" slipstream was very dangerous, but only as it could destabilize and collapse, hurling the ship out of control.

Its your assumption that there were no other problems, nothing more.

A small, lost ship crewed by 150 misfits found an alien drive system capable of crossing 50,000 light-years in 3 months, but was not compatible with their own hull strength. In a matter of months, with no working model to study, they reverse-engineered it and built a better version that not only got around the hull-strain problem but was a THOUSAND times as fast (hours instead of months).

Did they actually say they built it themsleves? Do we know that the drive on the Dauntless was the only example of the technology they'd seen? Do you know for a fact that Voyager's crew built the thing from scratch?

There are countless unknown questions involved with the events of "Timeless".

Note the Delta Flyer had no problems [with the slipstream] in either timeline.

Note that the Delta Flyer is much smaller than Voyager, and so doesn't have nearly as much hull stress as a larger ship.

The end result was that Voyager got 20,000 light-years closer to home in a matter of minutes. The feat of engineering was beyond incredible, into the range of the totally implausible! If the crew of Voyager could accomplish so much, imagine what the total resources of the Federation could manage. If the crew could properly (tech) the (tech) (tech), the (tech) would work fine. They only need a theoretical jump, not a practical one.

So why hadn't the Federation used it in say ST: Nemesis? You WANT the Feddies to be able to accomplish all these things even though there is no evidence that they can. In almost every case of new ST tech, it has been the lone scientist or group working in isolation rather than the whole Federation that came up with a breakthrough (examples: The Genesis device, the soliton wave, the exo-comps; all of which were later totally abandoned by the Federation as a whole probably because they were incapable of reproducing them.)

[Darth Servo]

It was an episode where Voyager actually used continuity.

3 months with one QS drive vs 15 minutes with another? You call that continuity?

They back engineered the slipstream from the Dauntless at a future date and used both it and the Delta Flyer in an attempt to make it back to the Federation.

See questions in my last post.

Voyager was so heavily damaged it was forced to crash land on a planet killing the crew.

Which is precisely why you shouldn't try to rely on the device.

The DF crew made it back to Federation space then attempted to change history.

Maybe thats how all the continuity bloobers can be explained!

That was one of the few well done episodes.

If that's your idea of a "well done episode" I'd hate to see what you consider "Trek crap".

[Eframepilot]

Don't be an idiot. If you don't think of an obvious solution with a few minutes or hours to come up with it, that's stupidity. If you don't think of an obvious solution with a few MONTHS or YEARS to come up with it, that's brain-death, or it just can't be done for reasons not made clear to you.

Well, the manufactured (tech) crystals they used in the core had a very short lifetime. It may have been a one-shot deal. But if Voyager could make one crystal in months, the Federation could make thousands.

Actually, a practical jump comes AFTER the theoretical jump and is often much more difficult.

Well duh, in real life, where we don't have magical deflector dishes that can be rigged to do anything in 10 minutes.

They had theoretical transwarp back in Kirk's era, remember? And look at real-life! Do you honestly think that once the theory is worked out, a practical implementation is just a snap of the fingers?

Of course not. In real life engineers don't have machines that can be programmed to do things far beyond the physics understood at their creation. But in Trek:

Picard: I need you to build a (tech) particle (tech) to save, oh, the universe.
Data: Well, at Daystrom Institute there's a crackpot who wear tinfoil hats with a theory that has particles rhyming with (tech).
Geordi: It should take us, oh, 50,000 years with a research team of every sentient being in the galaxy to build a working model.
Spock:(there for no reason) Your time estimate is both illogical and imprecise.
Picard: I need it by the next act.
(Ten minutes later)
Geordi: Captain, it's done. We've modified the deflector dish to...
Spock: Hurrah! Toga party!

Slightly exaggerated, but you get the drift. In Trek's case, they already have the machine, they don't know how to use it yet. They've built a Rubik's cube, they don't know how to solve it yet. How do YOU explain Barclay's stunt with the E-D's basic technology? Magical powers?

PS. the Federation's combined resources don't count for shit in this case; we're talking about alien technology which they don't even understand and have trouble using.

They made it a thousand times faster with cursory examination. That's a pretty damn good start. What do you think of Voyager's remarkable achievement?

And as for your silly notion that super-Barclay's feat can be duplicated by simply "improving wetware", how do you figure on doing that? Wave a magic wand and make more super-Barclays?

Barclay's feat was done entirely with existing technology. It IS duplicable, with the necessary knowledge. It only takes one breakthrough in (tech) theory to explain how he did it, and repeat it.

[Eframepilot]

Picard didn't think so. It would take them decades to begin to scratch the surface of understanding the technology.

Understanding it, sure. But they already have the basic parts. They have the VCR but can't program the damn thing. And what basis does he have for an estimate like that?

The "Timeless" slipstream was very dangerous, but only as it could destabilize and collapse, hurling the ship out of control.

Its your assumption that there were no other problems, nothing more.

It's your assumption there were problems we didn't see.

Did they actually say they built it themsleves? Do we know that the drive on the Dauntless was the only example of the technology they'd seen? Do you know for a fact that Voyager's crew built the thing from scratch?

There are countless unknown questions involved with the events of "Timeless".

Of course it was based on the Dauntless! (plus Seven's knowledge of Borg transwarp) It's a completely reasonable assumption based on the episode. They didn't have access to the Dauntless after the Borg nabbed it in "Hope and Fear", and there's no reason to believe they came across the same technology AGAIN, randomly, somewhere else.

So why hadn't the Federation used it in say ST: Nemesis? You WANT the Feddies to be able to accomplish all these things even though there is no evidence that they can. In almost every case of new ST tech, it has been the lone scientist or group working in isolation rather than the whole Federation that came up with a breakthrough (examples: The Genesis device, the soliton wave, the exo-comps; all of which were later totally abandoned by the Federation as a whole probably because they were incapable of reproducing them.)

Oh lord. The Federation always comes across technology then never uses it again. Your demand that their actions make sense is impossible. Why don't they use wide beam phaser stun (which we KNOW they have) on away missions? Do they not have it? Are there only a handful of phasers capable of it? Is it "lost tech", as in, they had it but Geordi left it in his other uniform? Hell, why don't the Borg send more than one damn cube at a time? Just because the Federation doesn't use something doesn't mean they CAN'T.

[Darth Servo]

Understanding it, sure. But they already have the basic parts. They have the VCR but can't program the damn thing. And what basis does he have for an estimate like that?

To correct your broken analogy. They may have the VCR but don't even know how to turn it on.

It's your assumption there were problems we didn't see.

Backed up by the fact that Voyager NEVER ONCE tried to use the damn thing again.

Did they actually say they built it themsleves? Do we know that the drive on the Dauntless was the only example of the technology they'd seen? Do you know for a fact that Voyager's crew built the thing from scratch?

There are countless unknown questions involved with the events of "Timeless".

Of course it was based on the Dauntless!

I never claimed other wise. What I did say was how do you know that was the ONLY example they've had? Don't resort to such blatent strawmen attacks.

(plus Seven's knowledge of Borg transwarp)

And how much are the two technologies related?

It's a completely reasonable assumption based on the episode.

It is completely UNreasonable to conclude that they were able to build their own QS drive from scratch with only a limited amount of time to examine the thing on the Dauntless.

They didn't have access to the Dauntless after the Borg nabbed it in "Hope and Fear", and there's no reason to believe they came across the same technology AGAIN, randomly, somewhere else.

Why? You mean that none of that race's neighbors have a similar device or similar tech? I never claimed that Voyager had another chance to examine the QS on board the Dauntless. I only said that it is reasonable to assume that there might be other working examples of the technology in that neck of the Delta Quadrant. You'd think this would be obvious since Voyager's version of the device went so much faster than the Dauntless' version.

Oh lord. The Federation always comes across technology then never uses it again. Your demand that their actions make sense is impossible. Why don't they use wide beam phaser stun (which we KNOW they have) on away missions? Do they not have it? Are there only a handful of phasers capable of it? Is it "lost tech", as in, they had it but Geordi left it in his other uniform? Hell, why don't the Borg send more than one damn cube at a time? Just because the Federation doesn't use something doesn't mean they CAN'T.

You can only claim incompetance when you have absolutely no choice. This clearly is NOT one of those cases.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, a practical jump comes AFTER the theoretical jump and is often much more difficult.

Well duh, in real life, where we don't have magical deflector dishes that can be rigged to do anything in 10 minutes.

In other words, your entire argument is predicated upon the assumption that treknology can do anything, hence it is basically circular. Concession accepted.

They made it a thousand times faster with cursory examination. That's a pretty damn good start. What do you think of Voyager's remarkable achievement?

Not much, since they weren't able to use it to get home.

And as for your silly notion that super-Barclay's feat can be duplicated by simply "improving wetware", how do you figure on doing that? Wave a magic wand and make more super-Barclays?

Barclay's feat was done entirely with existing technology. It IS duplicable, with the necessary knowledge. It only takes one breakthrough in (tech) theory to explain how he did it, and repeat it.

Try reading before you answer, dumb-ass. It used existing technology that was directly controlled by his enhanced super-brain. Without that particular irreplaceable and subsequently downgraded piece of equipment, it doesn't work and the ship is probably destroyed.

[Eframepilot]

It's your assumption there were problems we didn't see.

Backed up by the fact that Voyager NEVER ONCE tried to use the damn thing again.

The crystals were burned out, and almost losing the whole ship IS a big risk. That doesn't mean the technology itself is hopeless, just that Voyager didn't have the resources to fully develop it. The Think Tank was interested in it.

I never claimed other wise. What I did say was how do you know that was the ONLY example they've had? Don't resort to such blatent strawmen attacks.

I apologize. But there is no evidence for them finding any other quantum slipstream drive, and it was technology of a highly advanced, now-assimilated race.

(plus Seven's knowledge of Borg transwarp)

And how much are the two technologies related?

Seven said they were "similar", plus Chakotay joked about thanking the Borg Collective. Draw your own conclusions.

It is completely UNreasonable to conclude that they were able to build their own QS drive from scratch with only a limited amount of time to examine the thing on the Dauntless.

That's exactly what they did in "Hope and Fear". They caught up with the Dauntless using their modified deflector dish. Of course this was the Mark I version with the hull strain problem.

Why? You mean that none of that race's neighbors have a similar device or similar tech?

They were never near the race's neighbors. Arturis sought them out. Plus the entire region became Borg space.

I only said that it is reasonable to assume that there might be other working examples of the technology in that neck of the Delta Quadrant. You'd think this would be obvious since Voyager's version of the device went so much faster than the Dauntless' version.

Voyager had already mimicked the Dauntless after a basic examination. They also had Seven's knowledge of thousands of species and enhanced intellect. Assuming they ran into helper elves is totally unrequired. Accept Voyager's (inconsistent) engineering brilliance.

You can only claim incompetance when you have absolutely no choice. This clearly is NOT one of those cases.

Okay, how about this. Janeway said they were taking a huge risk, and Starfleet engineers would think they were crazy. Plus their benamite crystals (of unknown origin) would only last a short time, and "it might take years to synthesize more." But upon arriving home, Starfleet would take an interest in this super-drive and attempt to develop it. With Voyager's schematics and near-miss flight attempt, they would be only a few years away from a functional prototype. But the drive would not appear in Nemesis and probably not come up in casual conversation. Problem solved.

[Eframepilot]

Actually, a practical jump comes AFTER the theoretical jump and is often much more difficult.

Well duh, in real life, where we don't have magical deflector dishes that can be rigged to do anything in 10 minutes.

In other words, your entire argument is predicated upon the assumption that treknology can do anything, hence it is basically circular. Concession accepted.

It ain't circular if it's an observed fact. The deflector dish was modified in a short time to make: portal to fluidic space, massive beam of death, attractor to every particle of soot in an atmosphere, jury-rigged quantum slipstream mark I, one-shot phaser blast, inverse tachyon beam, trigger for transwarp conduit ("Descent"), (tech)(tech)(techytechygagvomit), etc. Pretty good for something designed to push asteroids out of the way. Maybe it can't do "anything," but you can't assume treknology is incapable of something just because it's never been done.

They made it a thousand times faster with cursory examination. That's a pretty damn good start. What do you think of Voyager's remarkable achievement?

Not much, since they weren't able to use it to get home.

Snappy. No points for effort, or for the equivalent of driving a Honda Civic at Mach 10 halfway across the country? Who cares if they didn't get all the way to the Pacific. A thousand-times increase in speed on alien supertechnology is better than anything in Star Wars.

Try reading before you answer, dumb-ass. It used existing technology that was directly controlled by his enhanced super-brain. Without that particular irreplaceable and subsequently downgraded piece of equipment, it doesn't work and the ship is probably destroyed.

A brain is just an organic mass of neurons. It's far too slow to make any calculations directly. He just made vastly better use of their existing technology with superior knowledge by plugging directly into the ship's computer. An equivalent pure computer program would be faster and less prone to error. Of course since they don't have said program, the point is moot, but it's just a mass of unknown code.

[Darth Wong]

It ain't circular if it's an observed fact.

Infinite extrapolation of nebulous "can improvise" capabilities is not an observed fact; it is a leap in logic, and a stupid one at that. You're basically saying that because they've improvised in the past, they can and will improvise under any situation to develop any arbitrary ability they need in any given situation. If you think this is logical, you're a fucking moron.

Snappy. No points for effort, or for the equivalent of driving a Honda Civic at Mach 10 halfway across the country?

Try "across a couple of states, nearly killing everyone, and rendering it impossible to use again in that manner". Not impressive, no.

Try reading before you answer, dumb-ass. It used existing technology that was directly controlled by his enhanced super-brain. Without that particular irreplaceable and subsequently downgraded piece of equipment, it doesn't work and the ship is probably destroyed.

A brain is just an organic mass of neurons. It's far too slow to make any calculations directly. He just made vastly better use of their existing technology with superior knowledge by plugging directly into the ship's computer. An equivalent pure computer program would be faster and less prone to error. Of course since they don't have said program, the point is moot, but it's just a mass of unknown code.

Sorry, but the reason he had to hook directly into the controller was the fact that the computer was NOT fast enough to make the necessary adjustments. Watch the fucking episode.

[Darth Servo]

It's your assumption there were problems we didn't see.

Backed up by the fact that Voyager NEVER ONCE tried to use the damn thing again.

The crystals were burned out, and almost losing the whole ship IS a big risk. That doesn't mean the technology itself is hopeless, just that Voyager didn't have the resources to fully develop it.

They were able to safely test it once but never again because they could only make the parts once? They were able to use the thing safely for about half a minute and then ONE problem just came out of nowhere? Get real. They knew about the one problem that caused their destruction in the original timeline before they even tested the QS drive in the first place, yet they still went ahead with the test.

The Think Tank was interested in it.

The who?

But there is no evidence for them finding any other quantum slipstream drive, and it was technology of a highly advanced, now-assimilated race.

Oh, so we're back to the borg assimilation is 100% argument are we? The fact that this one particular member escaped assimilation leaves open the possibility that there may be others. Many members of Guinans race escaped assimilation. A few episodes before "Scorpion" we meet a group of aliens that had been attacked and many assimilated, yet many others avoided assimilation.

Borg assimilation isn't anywhere near as fast as a BDZ. People OFTEN escape.

(plus Seven's knowledge of Borg transwarp)

And how much are the two technologies related?

Seven said they were "similar"

The question is HOW similar. Can't you read???

plus Chakotay joked about thanking the Borg Collective. Draw your own conclusions.

A joke is your idea of evidence?

It is completely UNreasonable to conclude that they were able to build their own QS drive from scratch with only a limited amount of time to examine the thing on the Dauntless.

That's exactly what they did in "Hope and Fear". They caught up with the Dauntless using their modified deflector dish. Of course this was the Mark I version with the hull strain problem.

They did nothing of the sort. The QS drive seems to create some kind of tunnel that the ship travels through (I guess thats how it could be similar to Transwarp above ) and Voyager was able to enter the tunnel and pursue the Dauntless with yet another deflector dish trick. This probably would NOT have worked without the Dauntless around.

You mean that none of that race's neighbors have a similar device or similar tech?

They were never near the race's neighbors. Arturis sought them out. Plus the entire region became Borg space.

Irrelevant nitpick. Doesn't address the problem of why you think no one else would have a similar device, inspite of the OBSERVED uniformity of tech in Trek. Voyager can barter for spare parts in the delta quadrant for crying out loud.

They also had Seven's knowledge of thousands of species and enhanced intellect.

Which is rarely ever used. How come the borg aren't using QS drives? They assimilated it. They should know how to use it. Instead they stick with their tactically WORTHLESS transwarp conduits.

Assuming they ran into helper elves is totally unrequired.

Only if you insist on the most braindead interpretation of canon events.

Accept Voyager's (inconsistent) engineering brilliance.

The mere fact that it is inconsistant proves that it ISN'T brilliance but rather dumb luck and a shit load of help from friendly natives.

You can only claim incompetance when you have absolutely no choice. This clearly is NOT one of those cases.

Okay, how about this. Janeway said they were taking a huge risk, and Starfleet engineers would think they were crazy.

Which would probably be why no one in Star Fleet would ever bother with the thing again, making it lost tech.

Plus their benamite crystals (of unknown origin) would only last a short time, and "it might take years to synthesize more."

It didn't take them "years" to synthesize their original batch now did it. Why would it require "years" to make more? Are you going to tell me that they used up the entire supply for lightyears in every direction? Is there only one planet that has them naturally?

The DESIRE to do something does NOT translate into the ability to actually do it.

But upon arriving home, Starfleet would take an interest in this super-drive and attempt to develop it. With Voyager's schematics and near-miss flight attempt, they would be only a few years away from a functional prototype. But the drive would not appear in Nemesis and probably not come up in casual conversation. Problem solved.

The Delta flyer had all that info in it, didn't it? Yet even in that future alternate timeline of "Timeless", the Fed's STILL hadn't developed QS drives, inspite of the strategic advantages of doing so.

[Eframepilot]

Infinite extrapolation of nebulous "can improvise" capabilities is not an observed fact; it is a leap in logic, and a stupid one at that. You're basically saying that because they've improvised in the past, they can and will improvise under any situation to develop any arbitrary ability they need in any given situation.

What I was saying before we got off track was that the warp engines and deflector dish have the raw power and capability for much faster travel; what the Feds need is a theoretical breakthrough (and, I concede, a practical application) to put the power to proper use. With quantum slipstream mark II they are nearly there.

Try "across a couple of states, nearly killing everyone, and rendering it impossible to use again in that manner". Not impressive, no.

They built the damn thing, which went a million times their normal velocity, from scratch. It's utterly incredible it did anything at all, let alone get them a quarter way home.

Sorry, but the reason he had to hook directly into the controller was the fact that the computer was NOT fast enough to make the necessary adjustments.

Huh. Been a while since I've seen it, thanks. But you're the anti-organic tech guy, you know that neural impulses move around jogging speed. Barclay's brain just couldn't be physically capable of exceeding the ship's computer. Are you putting dialogue above science and common sense?

[Darth Wong]

Infinite extrapolation of nebulous "can improvise" capabilities is not an observed fact; it is a leap in logic, and a stupid one at that. You're basically saying that because they've improvised in the past, they can and will improvise under any situation to develop any arbitrary ability they need in any given situation.

What I was saying before we got off track was that the warp engines and deflector dish have the raw power and capability for much faster travel; what the Feds need is a theoretical breakthrough (and, I concede, a practical application) to put the power to proper use. With quantum slipstream mark II they are nearly there.

Wrong. It DAMAGES THEIR SHIP. How many fucking times do I have to point this out? If they overuse it, it will DESTROY their ship. The deflector dish is a red herring; the strength of their shields and integrity fields and spaceframe is the problem.

Try "across a couple of states, nearly killing everyone, and rendering it impossible to use again in that manner". Not impressive, no.

They built the damn thing, which went a million times their normal velocity, from scratch. It's utterly incredible it did anything at all, let alone get them a quarter way home.

Why? The ship was modified by the Borg, with technology they don't understand and did not entirely remove, and then they incorporated stuff they got from the Dauntless. That's hardly "from scratch". And the fact that they still run the risk of destroying their ship if they use it is no small drawback!

Huh. Been a while since I've seen it, thanks. But you're the anti-organic tech guy, you know that neural impulses move around jogging speed. Barclay's brain just couldn't be physically capable of exceeding the ship's computer. Are you putting dialogue above science and common sense?

No, I'm saying he was probably remote-controlled by the Cytherians. I didn't realize you would need that spelled out for you

[Eframepilot]

They were able to safely test it once but never again because they could only make the parts once? They were able to use the thing safely for about half a minute and then ONE problem just came out of nowhere? Get real. They knew about the one problem that caused their destruction in the original timeline before they even tested the QS drive in the first place, yet they still went ahead with the test.

So they're crazy. They had very limited time and resources. The Federation could make more crystals, run far more simulations, have access to more data, etc. It ALMOST worked. The reward would be worth working for.

The Think Tank was interested in it.

The who?

Jason Alexander and 3 other aliens with supertech in the episode of the same name.

Oh, so we're back to the borg assimilation is 100% argument are we? The fact that this one particular member escaped assimilation leaves open the possibility that there may be others. Many members of Guinans race escaped assimilation. A few episodes before "Scorpion" we meet a group of aliens that had been attacked and many assimilated, yet many others avoided assimilation.

Borg assimilation isn't anywhere near as fast as a BDZ. People OFTEN escape.

All right, what are the chances that a single escapee will randomly run into Voyager in the vastness of space AND be willing to freely help the ship that callously doomed their race? Pretty small. Those helper elves are looking better...

Seven said they were "similar"

The question is HOW similar. Can't you read???

Seven said in a log: "I've analyzed the quantum slipstream technology of the Dauntless. It's similar to the transwarp drive used by the Borg." Not being psychic, I can't say more.

plus Chakotay joked about thanking the Borg Collective. Draw your own conclusions.

A joke is your idea of evidence?

That's all else there is. What exactly are you looking for? Evidence for or against?

They did nothing of the sort. The QS drive seems to create some kind of tunnel that the ship travels through (I guess thats how it could be similar to Transwarp above ) and Voyager was able to enter the tunnel and pursue the Dauntless with yet another deflector dish trick. This probably would NOT have worked without the Dauntless around.

That's some strong speculation, considering they had to specially match slipstream to rescue J and 7 and then turned around and went a different direction for 300 ly. The modifications were made so that they could generate a slipstream. Upon reading the summary again, I notice that they actually modified the warp drive.

Irrelevant nitpick. Doesn't address the problem of why you think no one else would have a similar device, inspite of the OBSERVED uniformity of tech in Trek. Voyager can barter for spare parts in the delta quadrant for crying out loud.

Tech like warp, impulse and transporters may be uniform but super-drives are very,very rare. Only reclusive or hostile ultra-races like the Voth and Borg have similar.

They also had Seven's knowledge of thousands of species and enhanced intellect.

Which is rarely ever used. How come the borg aren't using QS drives? They assimilated it. They should know how to use it. Instead they stick with their tactically WORTHLESS transwarp conduits.

The Borg only had the regular slipstream that Arturis used. The mark II is a Voyager invention. The Borg utterly suck at innovation and don't even try to invent new tech; this is a canon fact they have stated themselves. They couldn't even modify their own nanoprobes to get Species 8472.

The mere fact that it is inconsistant proves that it ISN'T brilliance but rather dumb luck and a shit load of help from friendly natives.

Around and around we go. They're not capable of it, so when they did it they must have had help. I bet circles are your favorite shape.

Which would probably be why no one in Star Fleet would ever bother with the thing again, making it lost tech.

That's a matter of opinion. Remember, it almost worked. Plus, the point of this thread includes "lost tech".

It didn't take them "years" to synthesize their original batch now did it. Why would it require "years" to make more? Are you going to tell me that they used up the entire supply for lightyears in every direction? Is there only one planet that has them naturally?

I don't know. That would be wildly speculating. They (somehow) had the crystals. The crystals were decaying very rapidly. It might take years to synthesize more. These are the facts stated by Kim. According to him, they had just one shot in the near future, and they took it. The Federation would have the time and resources to synthesize anything Voyager could make.

The Delta flyer had all that info in it, didn't it? Yet even in that future alternate timeline of "Timeless", the Fed's STILL hadn't developed QS drives, inspite of the strategic advantages of doing so.

The Delta Flyer was taking readings of the slipstream. It had no reason to carry the entire specs of the drive, especially considering Voyager wasn't expecting to die. Kim couldn't carry them all in his head, and the smartest person on Voyager who likely designed the thing herself was dead. Plus, the failure was much more blatant with a completely missing ship. The situations are not comparable.

[Eframepilot]

Wrong. It DAMAGES THEIR SHIP. How many fucking times do I have to point this out? If they overuse it, it will DESTROY their ship. The deflector dish is a red herring; the strength of their shields and integrity fields and spaceframe is the problem.

In "Timeless" the drive didn't strain the ship at all when in slipstream. Only when the thing became unstable and collapsed, hurling Voyager out to their doom, was the ship damaged. The spaceframe is fine; they need a method to compensate for the phase variances of the slipstream itself, i.e., pure Treknobabble.

Why? The ship was modified by the Borg, with technology they don't understand and did not entirely remove, and then they incorporated stuff they got from the Dauntless.

Huh? Voyager kept basically zilch Borg technology - Torres took it all out by "The Gift", except for the regeneration alcoves and some unimportant power conduits that were marginally more efficient. According to Torres, the Borg stuff made the ship work less well. And they didn't take anything from the Dauntless - they observed the drive system and modified the ship to match. Then, months later, they built an entirely new quantum slipstream drive that didn't strain the hull and was a thousand times faster.

That's hardly "from scratch".

Nearly so. They took knowledge of Borg and slipstream tech and made a new drive much much faster.

And the fact that they still run the risk of destroying their ship if they use it is no small drawback!

Well, yeah. But in spite of that, it was impressive. It was a failure, but a spectacular failure. Unfortunately, Voyager survived anyway.

No, I'm saying he was probably remote-controlled by the Cytherians.

Okay, that's plausible.

[Alyeska]

It was an episode where Voyager actually used continuity.

3 months with one QS drive vs 15 minutes with another? You call that continuity?

They back engineered the slipstream from the Dauntless at a future date and used both it and the Delta Flyer in an attempt to make it back to the Federation.

See questions in my last post.

Voyager was so heavily damaged it was forced to crash land on a planet killing the crew.

Which is precisely why you shouldn't try to rely on the device.

The DF crew made it back to Federation space then attempted to change history.

Maybe thats how all the continuity bloobers can be explained!

That was one of the few well done episodes.

If that's your idea of a "well done episode" I'd hate to see what you consider "Trek crap".

Had you watched the episode rather then insult me for liking it, you would know what I was talking about. The episode used good continuity, especially for Voyager.

[Master of Ossus]

Had you watched the episode rather then insult me for liking it, you would know what I was talking about. The episode used good continuity, especially for Voyager.

Ad hominem fallacy. In addition, you presented NO evidence in this post to support your claim that the continuity was "good."

[Alyeska]

Had you watched the episode rather then insult me for liking it, you would know what I was talking about. The episode used good continuity, especially for Voyager.

Ad hominem fallacy. In addition, you presented NO evidence in this post to support your claim that the continuity was "good."

I don't feel like spending time to write up a huge description of the episode. He can watch it to know what its like. What he did was insult it without knowing the entire subject and use my positive opinion of the episode to insult me. That is not the best of strategies.

[Darth Servo]

For the record Alyeska, YES, I have watched BOTH "Hope and Fears" and "Timeless" and my personal opinion was that "Timeless" was just another time-travel cliche episode where the writers don't even need to bother checking to see if it made any sense. Thats the "beauty" (*cough, cough*) of time travel. You can contradict yourself all you want.

[Grand Admiral Ancaris]

1.) Spaarti Cloning faciilty with Ysalamiri

2.) Jar Jar Binks

3.) Lots of bulk freighters and cruisers.

4.) Flood Federation territory

You are one sick individual to think that up...

[Darth Servo]

The who?

Jason Alexander and 3 other aliens with supertech in the episode of the same name.

No, no, no. You ruined the joke. You're supposed to say, "No, not 'The Who'....

Its an old joke. Probably before your time.

[Darth Wong]

In "Timeless" the drive didn't strain the ship at all when in slipstream. Only when the thing became unstable and collapsed, hurling Voyager out to their doom, was the ship damaged. The spaceframe is fine; they need a method to compensate for the phase variances of the slipstream itself, i.e., pure Treknobabble.

And you assume that this problem can be easily solved as opposed to being an intrinsic limitation of QS travel ... why? Shouldn't it occur to you that the reason a mature, reliable QS drive takes 3 months to make the trip is that the mode of travel is simply not safe by its very nature at those velocities? No one is ever going to make hypervelocity aircraft, not because of the technological limitations, but because of unavoidable side-effects of the interaction between hypervelocity objects and atmosphere.

Nearly so. They took knowledge of Borg and slipstream tech and made a new drive much much faster.

In both cases, they had an advisor onboard helping them, and even with that help, couldn't make it safe or reliable. And the fact that the reliable, mature QS drive of the Dauntless would have taken 3 months should tell you something; QS travel is simply not safe at extreme velocity. Hell, didn't you wonder why the Borg use their conduits instead of this super-fast drive, even after assimilating QS technology?

[Eframepilot]

And you assume that this problem can be easily solved as opposed to being an intrinsic limitation of QS travel ... why? Shouldn't it occur to you that the reason a mature, reliable QS drive takes 3 months to make the trip is that the mode of travel is simply not safe by its very nature at those velocities? No one is ever going to make hypervelocity aircraft, not because of the technological limitations, but because of unavoidable side-effects of the interaction between hypervelocity objects and atmosphere.

The analogy doesn't quite work. There is no atmosphere in space, and we have very little idea of the stresses involved in quantum slipstream dimensions. But the technology did work and did not threaten Voyager's structural integrity in "Timeless". The spaceframe even survived being thrown out of the slipstream; if they hadn't hit a planet, they could have escaped with no permanent damage

In both cases, they had an advisor onboard helping them, and even with that help, couldn't make it safe or reliable. And the fact that the reliable, mature QS drive of the Dauntless would have taken 3 months should tell you something; QS travel is simply not safe at extreme velocity. Hell, didn't you wonder why the Borg use their conduits instead of this super-fast drive, even after assimilating QS technology?

The Borg's natural transwarp drive is roughlt equivalent to the "mature" QS, and their conduits are superior in speed to the drive Voyager invented. Besides, the Borg have said themselves that they don't invent anything. The ultra-fast QS was a new technology made possible by Seven's application of Borg knowledge that the Borg were too uncreative to use.

[Darth Wong]

The analogy doesn't quite work. There is no atmosphere in space, and we have very little idea of the stresses involved in quantum slipstream dimensions.

You're missing the point, which is that there IS something which exerts drag-force in QS travel, hence the need for constant power and turbulence. If you can't figure out why the analogy works there, that's your problem, not mine.

But the technology did work and did not threaten Voyager's structural integrity in "Timeless". The spaceframe even survived being thrown out of the slipstream; if they hadn't hit a planet, they could have escaped with no permanent damage.

They were out of control; why couldn't they just maneuver out of the way? They were headed toward it at sublight speed, and they weren't even hypersonic enough to obscure the ship with a plasma wave when they hit the atmosphere! Face it; they were in a death dive.

The Borg's natural transwarp drive is roughlt equivalent to the "mature" QS, and their conduits are superior in speed to the drive Voyager invented.

Wrong. You are equating their transwarp drive and their conduits, which are two separate concepts. Their transwarp drive takes months to cover those kinds of distances, hence the delay between "Q Who" and BOBW. That's what they use when they have no conduits in place.

Besides, the Borg have said themselves that they don't invent anything. The ultra-fast QS was a new technology made possible by Seven's application of Borg knowledge that the Borg were too uncreative to use.

And it was no good because it was too dangerous. What part of this don't you understand? Arturis' QS drive was reliable and slow. Their drive was spectacularly dangerous and much faster, yet you can't put 2+2 together and figure out that maybe the speed differential has something to do with the danger? Or look at dialogue from the Dauntless and recognize that QS drive places great stress on the ship and realize that it was undoubtedly doing so in "Timeless" as well, or are you saying that if they don't spell it out for you, it must not be happening?

[Eframepilot]

You're missing the point, which is that there IS something which exerts drag-force in QS travel, hence the need for constant power and turbulence. If you can't figure out why the analogy works there, that's your problem, not mine.

If the turbulence in QS was at all connected with speed, then increasing the speed by a factor of a thousand would be devastating to their hull. Yet they didn't worry about stress within the slipstream. Given the FTL nature of the travel, it's possible that higher speed travel is actually less turbulent within the stream; the danger is that a collapse of the stream is much more violent.

They were out of control; why couldn't they just maneuver out of the way? They were headed toward it at sublight speed, and they weren't even hypersonic enough to obscure the ship with a plasma wave when they hit the atmosphere! Face it; they were in a death dive.

I checked the episode summary. Apparently after being knocked out of QS the ship was risking serious structural failure and they needed to land it; they aimed at a nearby planet and blew it. So yeah, you're right about the death dive, but the gravity of a planet would logically hurt the structure more. Go figure.

Wrong. You are equating their transwarp drive and their conduits, which are two separate concepts. Their transwarp drive takes months to cover those kinds of distances, hence the delay between "Q Who" and BOBW. That's what they use when they have no conduits in place.

Fool. That's exactly what I was saying. The Borg have both drive systems and don't have the ability to develop a third.

And it was no good because it was too dangerous. What part of this don't you understand? Arturis' QS drive was reliable and slow. Their drive was spectacularly dangerous and much faster, yet you can't put 2+2 together and figure out that maybe the speed differential has something to do with the danger? Or look at dialogue from the Dauntless and recognize that QS drive places great stress on the ship and realize that it was undoubtedly doing so in "Timeless" as well, or are you saying that if they don't spell it out for you, it must not be happening?

So the initial test flight was dangerous. So it may require a stronger spaceframe. These are problems that must be addressed, and Voyager didn't have the resources or time to deal with them. But the basic technology worked and the Federation could develop it. The "phase variance" difficulty is exactly the treknobabble problem they are experts at solving, and Voyager's hull was strong enough to withstand a single flight across 40,000 lightyears. Certainly perfecting the drive will take years, even decades, but it isn't a dead end. The Think Tank thought it was theoretically intriguing.