Federation/Empire fleet battle: Not smooth Imp sailing?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 01:15pm

Ah I understand now you put it in caps that answers all questions on the subject.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-14 01:25pm

Ok. Since you now accepted that the phase cloak is lost tech and it's use as invalid as deployment of the Sun Crusher, we now can proceed.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 01:29pm

Its only Fair, They Have the plans and the technology, Plus the Materal and the ability to churn out 10 of the things a day and no lack of pilots

And the Reason I put it into caps was because
BECAUSE YOU BLODDY GIT YOU DID NOT GRASP THAT POINT DESPITE THE FACT EVERYONE SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGIAN THAT IT WAS NOT A VIALD TATIC OH JUST BECAUSE WE TALK ABOUT ITS ACUTAL USEFULNESS DOES NOT MEAN ITS SUDDENLY OK AGIAN!

Some people you can tell them something
Others you must yell
While still other need it printed on a large Two by Four and repeated hit them over the head with it

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 01:31pm

Oh great no edit button I guess my size number was inviald

Oh well pretend its large twenty foot writing

BECAUSE YOU BLODDY GIT YOU DID NOT GRASP THAT POINT DESPITE THE FACT EVERYONE SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGIAN THAT IT WAS NOT A VIALD TATIC OH JUST BECAUSE WE TALK ABOUT ITS ACUTAL USEFULNESS DOES NOT MEAN ITS SUDDENLY OK AGIAN

Heres how its supposed to look

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 01:34pm

Oh you just had to goad me into a response didnt you

.

The Sun crusher was developed after the battle of endor also it was destroyed (or put beyond reach) along with the knowledge for its construction being eradicated by Kyp.

Phase cloak technology almost certainly still exists - first the scientist are probably still around.
It was also developed by rogue Intelligence agents who no doubt kept backups.
Also lets no forget section 31 - an organisation that monitors what people have for breakfast and goes arround killing people who oppose it - you think they wouldnt have plans for the tech? its very likely the entire phase cloak experiment was prompted by them.

I will grant you that phase cloaks arent ready to go onto starships but if the Feds knew they were 2 monthes from a huge war - I think they would startr building them.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 02:02pm

Acutal I'll have to disagree with you here Kyp supressed them sure maybe removed some but there is someone else with the knowledge Daala has it(Remeber she took a complete copy when she left the Maw Instlation) Also Kyp might know/remeber how to build one and sure the existing model was destroyed but the WEAPON is what he was after the Quantum whatever Armor that was on it was not part of what he erased no destroyed(Oh the the rebels had it for awhile they probably have some records of it)

That an acutaly it was what nine years after they took Beve Lemsok out of the Maw and she implyed she had worked on it for ten years, and that was mostly the weapon end, That and ANH to ROTJ was some time so you have maybe the Armor was fully devopled by the time ROTJ ended

So bascily it works either way, The Scientist who built phase cloacks sure he's around so is the Sun-crushers builder along with at least two full copies of the desgin

And as somone pointed out before
You only need ONE invicible Ship

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 02:16pm

My question is, if the sun crusher was ready to go during ROTJ then why not use it instead of death star 2?

I dont know that much about the sun crusher except about its destrcutiona dn Kyps involvement, that and what SD.net reports.

Therefore if it was workable during ROTJ the only reason it wasnt deployed was the risk factor involved (since as sd.net states the guy in he hot seat would be holding all the cards.)
If theres another reason could you fill me since I dont know all the backstory.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-14 02:19pm

Its hard to be afraid of something you can't see. The whole point of the DS2 was to terrify the population into submission.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 02:22pm

TheDarkling
The Maw insititue was funded and Created by Moff Tarkin, He took the smartest people and put them where hardly anyone could get to them and used them to build super cool weapons for the Empire
Problem was Tarkin got waxed and never told anyone about where he built it, The Emperor knew but never checked up on the.m They had the Suncrusher built but no one knew where they where untill right after ROTJ where they sent of a report with some of thier latest ideas

One of which where World Devistators

Oh I forget Bev Lemosik knew where they where also(He managed them in addition to building things)

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 02:23pm

Yeah but blowing away a star then saying "stay in line or it will happen again" would have pretty much finished the rebellion.

I understand that the DS2 was also bait for the trap but it seems only the emperor had knowledge of the devcie and the installation or else someone would have used it during the destruction of the empire - especially Thrawn so if a grand admiral didnt know it seems the knowledge was limited to only a few.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 02:28pm

The Emperor knew about the INSTLATION not what they where acutaling DOING there

And Bev disapered off the face of the earth after the Emperor died because he was going to be killed for the Death Star being blow up(The Emperor acutalwas pretty cruel with him, He had some werid wonked out Jedi Mind Transfer thing he could do and access to Clone bodies of Lemisk
Side effect of this?

He could kill him as may times as he wanted, Just before he dies(When its alll going black) he Jedi yanks him out stuffs him in a clone body and he's all ready to be killed agian

Thus the Emperor had his personal whipping boy whenever something goes bad he could devises some sick way of Killing Lemisk and then bring him back to life agian ready to go

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 02:28pm

Mr Bean: From that info it seems like the sun crusher wouldnt have seen use while the emperor was alive - the difference between the feds would use everything they could but the imps wouldnt use super weapons because of the drawback involved in them.

As you point out the Imps power is enough to grant victory so why use risky super weapons?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 02:44pm

Which is funner from the Empires Point of View

Sending a bunch of Ships to intimdate everyone, take over planets, Blast your enemeys

Painting Flames on the Side of the Sun-Crusher and taking it over.. Personaly....

No I'm just pointing out the fact the Sun-Crusher Represented TWO tecnical achivments, well acutal three, it was nearly invislbe to Sensors(Large amount of steathing was built in)
One-Star Destroying Torps
Two-Super Armor Plating that lets it be tossed inside a SUN and survive for months, SW weaponry can't scratch it.
Three-I already said above

The fact they have this Armor aviable is quite intresting.

Prehaps its very hard to make or some such thing(Qui says its Molecuse stacked as dense as is possible by quantum mechanics)

Thats the most intresting part of the whole Sun-Crusher thing, the Pratical invunrablity and THATS how its useful

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 03:03pm

Yes but if the empire was doing ok then the emperor isnt going to contact the Installation and say "Hi, whats cooking?" so the sun crusher will simply sit there and all the technology that came with it.

We have no idea on when it was constructed ... im going to have to read those boks - I have them just havent gotten around to it yet.

Constucting a ship made of this material would take time even if the choice was made.

I would say that for all intents and purposes the sun crusher and tech wouldnt come into play in a Fed - Imp war.

The empire aint real interested in levity and the sun crusher itself is too risky to deploy unless the imps were on the defensive (who would risk it? Kyle Katarn/Han solo were imps so Imp troops a9int all loyal and the semi loyal ones are power mad sociopaths).

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 03:12pm

Just wanted to point out that despite the fact that the Emperor was doing ok VS the Rebellion and any Star Destroyer could allready BDZ a planet and kill near anything on it that he still built a Death Star

Furthmore even if you are doing well you WOULD lookup on the military pojects to see if the built some super cool weapon you could use, The simple fact was The Suncrusher was drawing board when Lemisk was yanked off and then it started be built, So did second Death Star, Qui says look its done! Emperorer meanwhile is flying down a shaft and was not avaible for comment(Just kidding acutal the Sun-Crusher was finshed a few years(2-3) after The Emperor died

They had all sorts of intresting weapons half way or near all the way built, For example one they never got to test agian which destroyed ships holes even through Shields....
Only 1% of the Hull is Destroyed but its spread over a HUGE area so the ship smush itself in on itself
The weapon was destroyed before the got a second shot however, it showed great promise

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-14 05:07pm

I agree Darkling that the Federation's technoligical resourcefulness has always been its best asset (aside from kick ass coomanders like Kirk) but at not time in the Dominion War, in my opinion the most desperate time in the Federation did we see a phase cloak even MENTIONED. They came up with some techno inovations such as upgrading Fed shields to withstand Dominion weapons....(still LOVE that scene when Weyoun is floored that DS9 is resisting their fleet's weapons.) BUT at no time, when they were losing HUNDREDS of ships, Beta Zed occupied Vulcan threatened and Earth attacked by the Breen, do we EVER see some of the technological mostrosities that some Trekers pull out of their collective butts to oppose the Empire.

This indicates to me that they just don't have the technology anymore or can't use it. Can you think of a better excuse to develop a phase cloak weapon, or even install a few in their ships when they have their backs against the wall??

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 05:19pm

Stravo: Yes they werent in enough danger to go full scale and unleash huge tech insanity.
The Breen used a tech weapon to hurt the feds and the feds built a new device to make shields effective again, as for phase cloaks - they werent used because the Feds couldnt risk loosing the Romulans - if they wanted to use they against the Imps they would probably have to give the Romulans the tech in exchange to a change in the treaty.

The feds also used the super new mines and the cardie's created a techie way to combat it.

The Cardies came up with the super planetary defense that wouldnt die - another weird invention.

We also see the Valiants crew try to use some radiation to destroy Jem Hadar battle cruisers.

The feds also used sneaky tactics to blow up the White dump for the Jem Hadar and they use the genetically engineered think tank.

The feds also used resistance as a weapon so any capative populations would still work against the empire.

Also they enlisted the help of God like beings and it actually worked but I wont press that because the amount of flames would chargrill me.

So as you can see it wasnt a straight up fight and the Feds were never under that much pressure after they pushed the Dominion from DS9, not until the Breen poped up did the war become a big issue again.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-14 06:01pm

Darkling the technological solutions that you cite are all natural extensions of things we have already seen in Trek before. The reworking the shields against a new weapon is one of the oldest standbys. In fact, I don't think I've seen a weapon ST shields have not been modified to defeat, even the Borg tractor beam weapon did not seem to affect the Enterrpise E in First Contact.

The super new mines were not super nor new at all, they were standard antiship mines, it was Rom (groan) who came up with the self replicating mine idea, still, nothing we can't extrapolate from current Trek Tech.

The Valiant's radiation attack was PURE Trek technobabble solution and also added the extra wrinkle that if it is not the main cast doing something techie it won't work. Throughout that whole episode when Nog is saying that Sisko would never try that idea he would run for help I was yelling at the screen "YES he would you big eared freak!"

Sneaky tactics does not a techno soltuion make, it only shows that they are smart. I was not arguing against Federation commander's over all intelligence, I was arguing against Trek claims that something like a Phase Cloak Torpedoe of Death was something they could cobble together to combat the Empire. They used a stolen ship to get into the white dump, perhaps a phase cloaked ship would have been easier? Perhaps they had NO phase cloak to work with.

I agree not to attack the god like being tactic as I am aghast that they stooped to a deux ex machina against the Dominion. I actually enjoyed the writing for the Dominion War in DS9 but was sorely disappointed by that solution. But just want to point out that it is not a tech solution ala Phase cloak torpedoe of death.

Fed resistance....I don't recall there being a resistance on Beta Zed mentioned in the war or any other Dominion occupied world. In fact, Weyoun implies that the sole center of resistance would be earth...not a ringing endorsement of Federation citizens love for their government. Then again the writers have been very Earth Centric on ST for YEARS.

I have to respectfully disagree that the Feds were not under pressure. The fleet that went to liberate DS9 was all that they could pull together wihtout their lines completely collapsing and there was a definate now or never feel to that battle, lest we forget Bashir's rant that "We can't keep taking these kinds of losses if we expect to win!" The think tank you mentioned also predicted the Federation's defeat. I think we saw the Federation on the brink during the Dominion war, if not, what was the point of the whole stort line? Where was the drama?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 06:21pm

The feds werent really that close to the brink, after they retook DS9 the dominion gave up for almost a year apart from he odd skirmish.

The now or never feeling was that if the Feds didnt make it to the wormhole in time it would be all over (apart from those magical god like folk) I must say im shocked that I have never seen a trekkie argument saying that Bajor cant be defeated (Not that im saying that - it just seems alot more plausable than some other arguments I have seen).

I have already stated why I think the feds still have phase cloak designs (You honestly think Section 31 would allow he tech to be destroyed?).

Those where natural extentions (apart from the self replicating mine which is combining tech which is frowned upon by ASVS) but going by that same rule Trek would probably adapt their shields to defend against Wars weapons (also frowned upon).

The Subspace transporter would be a great weapon against the imps (dependant upon Hull density and thickness) and could clout them.

As for resistance - tthe dominion wasnt really into slavery and the brutality the imps use because they like to get good PR - they identified Earth and the main rallying point for Fed resistance but didnt say it would be the only fighter - the Bajorans would be good at organising a resistance.

I cant really see anything to stop a phase cloak usefulness apart from the fact that the imps may over run the feds to quickly.

However this is getting to deeply into the subject with to many unknown variables - what do the imps want etc.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 07:26pm

but going by that same rule Trek would probably adapt their shields to defend against Wars weapons (also frowned upon).

The Simple reason this is, is due to raw power output If your not one of those brain dead idiots who thinks Trecky Shields are Invurable thanks to the fact its called a Turbo "Laser" and have seen Mr Wongs astroid Calculations the fact we are talking about 200GT Weapons SW has.
Meanwhile The high End Qunatum Torps are a mear 64 Megatons and five of those can destroy most any ship the Federation has(Ref-Epsoides, Watching Destroyed Shields, Number of Hits *Hero ships took before shields where down and somthing came to save them) and we can conclued safely that it takes less than 1 GT to take down the shields of any ST Federation Ship
Now the if it does take less than 1 GT, roughly 500 Megatons say, Then a Heavy Gun on an Imperal Star Destroyer would have 400X the nessary descrutive power needed to take down the shields of a Fed Ship and due to that simple fact your Ships are not gonna have a CHANCE to Adapt. Much like Humans while able to adapt to prolonged heat and cold will be unable to do the same when a .45 Round Hits them between the eyes

BTW I'm being generous with the 500 Megaton as the acutal Figure is 320 Megatons but I'm figureing in any Tecno-bable shield strength increases in there

The Subspace transporter would be a great weapon against the imps (dependant upon Hull density and thickness) and could clout them

Agian subspace is an unknow though its been observed to be wonked with rather baddly by a few things inculding Jamming, Somthing that is Standerd Doctrin for an Imperal Ship, It should be noted that The Empires Sensors are greater than the Subspace Transports Range thus even if you can get in range, Your Also in range of the SD Guns.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 07:46pm

Imp sensors look for high powered ships, if ST ships are so weak they would be harder to detect, the falcon was hard to find once it was powered down in ESB (yes they were in an astroid but tracking then entering wasnt done by ships in the area meaning that imp sensors arent supra).

Where does that shield rating come from (just wondering not a flame), I have to say that from certain calcs I have seen Torps range in fire power from Kilotons to Gigatons - the scary thing is both sets of calcs were based on the same incident.

I dont find these "Transporters are unrealiable" and "my grandads socks could block them" arguments very convincing - in almost all TNG cases its a sensor problem - which wouldnt mater for beaming in a bomb.

As for subtrans - well we have already been over that so ill leave it at that.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 08:13pm

Lemme correct a few things

Imp sensors look for high powered ships

Not quite True they look for POWER Period along with a multitde of other things(Sensors on a Star Destroyer are ten to thirty diffrent things not just one or two from what we understand)
If thier is NO Power you can't track a ship easly at Light-Second distances. In this case Solo was using a Sensor blind spot that he could because he had roughly five seconds to shut down all systems and power-down, Remeber they shut off the DRIOD thinking he might alert the sensors
He got the five seconds BTW simply by Human Error, He swoped the Bridge so everyone ducks they take thier eyes of the scopes for a few seconds and bang he has his time to flip around and clamp to the hull(Of course they could go look at this on sensor play-back so either they did not(unlikely) Or Solo had half the systems already off when he rounded the Tower and slap the others off very quickly

but tracking then entering wasnt done by ships in the area meaning that imp sensors arent supra

But also there where a ton of Astroids in the way NTM if you watch he dives in a Trench whichs follows the astroid around and based on the rotaton as he comes in he dives in flys along trench goes down other side, now out of view of all the ships gets the last two TIEs so they can't report in and hides
Hence the diffuclty in finding him, He still could be on the rock he used to escape them or could have gone more in to another rock if he had the time.

I dont find these "Transporters are unrealiable" and "my grandads socks could block them" arguments very convincing - in almost all TNG cases its a sensor problem - which wouldnt mater for beaming in a bomb

Eh? You mean the fact the bomb would be sliced in half by the Deck would have a problem on said bomb?
Second in over ninty epsoides somthing blocked the Transporter, Something went wrong with it or otherwise, Mostly its hard rocks and gravitational fields, Also shields and Jamming block it too, Subspace clears the Hard Rock, But Gravity and Jamming still affect that one, In fact in one epsoide
LIMESTONE blocks a attempted Transportation

I'm sorry but Transporters are not just UNreliable but also unpredictable
From the times where things have been ported into soild objects its always the Solid object that wins thus the problem of having to know where you are Transporting the bomb thanks to the fact that most bombs don't do well, cut in half, or maybe thirds, maybe even eights depending on the size

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 08:25pm

Not would be - could be sliced up.

The fact that the feds could sacrifice ships to scan the ships to transmit data back woud give them more realiable co-ords.

However just trial and error would work for the first few engagesment or even simply beaming into the hangar which should be open enough that its likely that it wouldnt take to many tries before a bomb appeared intact.

You say the hull wouldnt stop the subtrans but I dont think thats correct it may simply allow the subspace transporter to pass though more material but I doubt it invalidates the armor all together (Dependant upon material density and thickness).

The transporter may be the feds only ace in the hole.

that and warp strafing (Ducks flames).

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 08:53pm

that and warp strafing (Ducks flames).

*Orders the Area Carpet Bombed with Napam

However just trial and error would work for the first few engagesment or even simply beaming into the hangar which should be open enough that its likely that it wouldnt take to many tries before a bomb appeared intact.

Trial And Error might work except for the shielding problem(Transporters don't go through shields, That much we know, nothing has ever(To Wongs knowledge I use his data-base when I say this) has ever been Transported TO somthing with shields up, NTM Jamming, NTM The Hull, NTM My old Socks

Second on a Moving Ship Cordinates are irrelvant, In fact even MORE unlikely they will ever get one inside(The bomb based on ST Tech, has to be rather large) before they kinda run outta ships to do it with

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 09:15pm

* Gets out of fox hole and looks at burnt jungle.

Yes Transporters would be stopped by shields.
Subtrans not.

Jamming - well the thing is the empire wouldnt know what it was jamming and that arent that bright assuming they could jam transporters (of which Im not sure), subtrans cant be blocked by the usual jammers.

The hull - I would need more info but at 10 m thick it would need to be x8 the density of depleted uranium - which is a high density and this was for a normal beam up, not factoring in that beam ins are easier or that the subtrans is less affected by normal space.

By co-ords I meant relative to the ship ie a crude layout - the hangar can be seen so that wouldnt be too differcult - as for bomb size, taking torp yield as 64 MT - that would ruin the hangar and could do nasty stuff indeed, you then simply beam another torp into the same area but at the edge of the blast radius - bomb again.

I have been told that an attack on a ISD's hangar destroyed the ship because a power conduit runs near by - I believe this was mentioned in the original subtrans thread.

The federations best hope lies in causing as many Imp losses before they are forced to switch to a resistance mode - however such tactics are dependant why the imps were concuring.

The federation could always do the sensible thing - Take a conie out of storage and go on to own the empire (25 grams of their antimatter destroys a planets atmosphere - not bad

)

Whats wrong with warp strafing anyway? (Dives back into fox hole and prays)