Q vs. Han Solo and Chewbacca

[SirNitram]

Only when there is no other theory supported by evidence. And there is evidence the Q require technology. So please prove it already. Shit, even in High Fantasy there are con-men who pretend to be wizards, should we apply your assbackwards thoughts so that they all magically become wizards?

No, but if you meet someone who claims to be a wizard and demonstrates powers, you assume he IS a wizard, not a con-man (depending of the ratio of real wizards to con-men, of course). The Q require technology for some of their powers, but it's a leap of logic to claim they rely on it for all of their powers. Hell, Darth Wong agrees that the Q are not entirely humanoid fakers. (Yeah, yeah, blatant appeal to authority but I don't care)

It's not quite an appeal to authority, we can all see the logic and we can all agree. However, to continue my con-man/wizard analogy, if we see someone display things that are beyond the ken of the townspeople, but it's revealed his 'magic wand' was really a flintlock all along, aren't we in a position to doubt this person?

[Ted C]

I feel it necessary to restate this very clearly: in any and every example of superbeings who displayed "technology", the items in questions serve the dedicated purpose of interaction with mortal humans. Apollo's Tempe, The Orbs of the Prophets, and the "weapons" seen in the Q Continuum (the fact that we see the Q Continuum at all, for that matter) all support this.

Apollo's temple served to as a source of his powers. How was it necessary to interacting with humans? He never tried to transfer his powers.

If the conversations in "The Q and the Gray" are any indication, the Q used those weapons themselves when fighting each other. The female Q described them as "our weaponry", indicating that the "guns" used by Voyager's crew were no different from the weapons that the Q were using themselves. Given the available information, I think the burden of proof would be on you to demonstrate that there's a distinction between the weapons they provided to Voyager's crew and the weapons they wielded themselves.

[Eframepilot]

It's not quite an appeal to authority, we can all see the logic and we can all agree. However, to continue my con-man/wizard analogy, if we see someone display things that are beyond the ken of the townspeople, but it's revealed his 'magic wand' was really a flintlock all along, aren't we in a position to doubt this person?

We are, but Q weapons aren't the equivalents of flintlocks. (Unless you take the Civil War scenario literally! ) They are weapons of a nature beyond comprehension, so their counting as "technology" means little. We can explain how a flintlock works but not a Q musket! My Marvel analogy fits better. Galactus flies through space in a technological ship and fears the Ultimate Nullifier, a weapon wieldable by a human, but he is no less a superbeing.

[Kintaro]

I think Roddenberry had some ideas about Q's limitations, but he took them to grave (or space, rather). Well, we now have nothing to fear, because Bullshit & Buttkiss have benn running the show! Whoppiee!

[Darth Wong]

About not being as tough if you catch him unawares: So I can kill Quinn with a sniper rifle but he can't kill himself by any method at all? That makes absolutely no sense.

Explain why it makes no sense. Keep in mind that a human being needs some kind of external device to kill himself, and can't simply will himself to die. So how do we know Quinn must be able to do it without a device, particularly when the Q continuum was doing everything it could to keep him alive?

[Eframepilot]

About not being as tough if you catch him unawares: So I can kill Quinn with a sniper rifle but he can't kill himself by any method at all? That makes absolutely no sense.

Explain why it makes no sense. Keep in mind that a human being needs some kind of external device to kill himself, and can't simply will himself to die. So how do we know Quinn must be able to do it without a device, particularly when the Q continuum was doing everything it could to keep him alive?

A human can kill themself by jumping off a bridge. If Quinn is vulnerable to normal violence, he could easily do the same. Or throw himself in a black hole.

If the Q are protecting Quinn by making him invulnerable to all threats in the universe, they are capable of doing the same for themselves. Also, the Q prize their immortality and wish to avoid death. The Continuum didn't want Quinn to die because it would cause a metaphysical "disruption in the Continuum," not because they cared about him. So logically every Q would turn their invulnerability on in dangerous situations, like interacting with unpredictable mortals possessing weapons that can kill them. See Larry Niven's puppeteers and Ringworld for the psychology of a vulnerable immortal.

Look at it this way. To a Q, the universe is a holodeck. Since they wish to avoid death, they would usually leave the "safety protocols" on, allowing them to walk in space, hide in warp cores and watch the Big Bang as it happens (if you buy the last one). So Sisko could knock Q down because his fist couldn't really kill Q and didn't violate the "safety protocols". Alternatively, Q turned off the safeties in the boxing ring he had created to let Sisko really hit him. This would not be unprecedented; in "Qpid" he said the Robin Hood fantasy was outside his direct control. Making himself specifically vulnerable in the one boxing incident would be odd but not out of character.

Of course, all of this assumes that a Q's "real" body can be damaged by physical violence at all, and that the Sisko incident wasn't a total illusion. Expecting Han Solo and Chewbacca to kill Q is the height of illogic.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I feel it necessary to restate this very clearly: in any and every example of superbeings who displayed "technology", the items in questions serve the dedicated purpose of interaction with mortal humans. Apollo's Tempe, The Orbs of the Prophets, and the "weapons" seen in the Q Continuum (the fact that we see the Q Continuum at all, for that matter) all support this.

Apollo's temple served to as a source of his powers. How was it necessary to interacting with humans? He never tried to transfer his powers.

If the conversations in "The Q and the Gray" are any indication, the Q used those weapons themselves when fighting each other. The female Q described them as "our weaponry", indicating that the "guns" used by Voyager's crew were no different from the weapons that the Q were using themselves. Given the available information, I think the burden of proof would be on you to demonstrate that there's a distinction between the weapons they provided to Voyager's crew and the weapons they wielded themselves.

I wish I could -- the script doesn't appear to be online anywhere. I suppose I'll have to concede unless I can locate it. Of course, the above still does not necessitate that the "guns" are physical devices. Keep in mind that Riker was given Q powers once -- the "guns" may serve as symbols or icons of a particular Q ability. As to why Lady Q couldn't access her abilities outside the Continuum while it was in turmoil, I will admit that's a puzzler.

An extra-universal explanation is simple -- B&B were fucking the Q just like they fucked the Borg.

[Rhoades]

A human can kill themself by jumping off a bridge. If Quinn is vulnerable to normal violence, he could easily do the same. Or throw himself in a black hole.

By in the human society, there is some we have called a suicide watch. The way it works, when a person threatens suicide other people then to make sure that it doesn't happen either by denying access to external devices or making sure he/she doesn't jump off a bridge. The Q continunum most likely have similar safeguards, we don't have to leap to the idea of the Q being immuned to 'normal violence' (though, I consider bridges and black holes more of an 'external device').

[Eframepilot]

A human can kill themself by jumping off a bridge. If Quinn is vulnerable to normal violence, he could easily do the same. Or throw himself in a black hole.

By in the human society, there is some we have called a suicide watch. The way it works, when a person threatens suicide other people then to make sure that it doesn't happen either by denying access to external devices or making sure he/she doesn't jump off a bridge. The Q continunum most likely have similar safeguards, we don't have to leap to the idea of the Q being immuned to 'normal violence' (though, I consider bridges and black holes more of an 'external device').

But the Q still don't wanna die. Why wouldn't the Q immunize themselves to normal violence (if they even need to)?

[Darth Wong]

A human can kill themself by jumping off a bridge. If Quinn is vulnerable to normal violence, he could easily do the same. Or throw himself in a black hole.

Precisely. A human needs something external to himself in order to kill himself. This means the Q continuum can keep Quinn from killing himself.

If the Q are protecting Quinn by making him invulnerable to all threats in the universe, they are capable of doing the same for themselves.

Of course they're capable, as long as they notice it in time to address it. What part of this are you too fucking stupid or stubborn to understand, since I've been saying this since the beginning?

Also, the Q prize their immortality and wish to avoid death. The Continuum didn't want Quinn to die because it would cause a metaphysical "disruption in the Continuum," not because they cared about him. So logically every Q would turn their invulnerability on in dangerous situations, like interacting with unpredictable mortals possessing weapons that can kill them. See Larry Niven's puppeteers and Ringworld for the psychology of a vulnerable immortal.

Wow, this is, like totally fucking irrelevant to the point. Way to go.

Look at it this way. To a Q, the universe is a holodeck. Since they wish to avoid death, they would usually leave the "safety protocols" on, allowing them to walk in space, hide in warp cores and watch the Big Bang as it happens (if you buy the last one). So Sisko could knock Q down because his fist couldn't really kill Q and didn't violate the "safety protocols". Alternatively, Q turned off the safeties in the boxing ring he had created to let Sisko really hit him. This would not be unprecedented; in "Qpid" he said the Robin Hood fantasy was outside his direct control. Making himself specifically vulnerable in the one boxing incident would be odd but not out of character.

Ah, so he has to turn off a default perfect-invulnerability shield rather than using his power to actively protect himself? What a crock of shit; please justify this perfect-invulnerability shield.

Of course, all of this assumes that a Q's "real" body can be damaged by physical violence at all, and that the Sisko incident wasn't a total illusion. Expecting Han Solo and Chewbacca to kill Q is the height of illogic.

No more than expecting Whoopi Goldberg to be able to hurt him even though she can't even take Mark Twain with a Colt .45.

[Rhoades]

But the Q still don't wanna die. Why wouldn't the Q immunize themselves to normal violence (if they even need to)?

You got a very good. *snaps fingers* Shit! I don't want to die either, so why didn't I think of that? Where's that violence immunization!?!

[SirNitram]

It's not quite an appeal to authority, we can all see the logic and we can all agree. However, to continue my con-man/wizard analogy, if we see someone display things that are beyond the ken of the townspeople, but it's revealed his 'magic wand' was really a flintlock all along, aren't we in a position to doubt this person?

We are, but Q weapons aren't the equivalents of flintlocks. (Unless you take the Civil War scenario literally! ) They are weapons of a nature beyond comprehension, so their counting as "technology" means little. We can explain how a flintlock works but not a Q musket! My Marvel analogy fits better. Galactus flies through space in a technological ship and fears the Ultimate Nullifier, a weapon wieldable by a human, but he is no less a superbeing.

Except your analogy requires you to be right, instead of illustrating my point. And the analogy does hold, for relative tech levels. A flintlock will seem very magical and mysterious to all but the most-learned of a High Fantasy setting, just as Q's powers seem mystical and impossible unless you look closely at other existing technology which can do similar things, on smaller scales.

[Eframepilot]

Precisely. A human needs something external to himself in order to kill himself. This means the Q continuum can keep Quinn from killing himself.

How? Did they put all the guns, cliffs and black holes in the universe out of reach? Is there someone assigned to Quinn constantly countering all threats? No Q was watching Quinn when he made his suicide attempt on Voyager; if jumping into a black hole could have killed him, he'd have done it instead.

If the Q are protecting Quinn by making him invulnerable to all threats in the universe, they are capable of doing the same for themselves.

Of course they're capable, as long as they notice it in time to address it.

Where the hell is your evidence that being vulnerable is their normal state and not the exception? We have 1 instance of Q being caught off-guard but not hurt, 1 instance of Q being slightly intimidated by a humanoid with enigmatic powers and ZERO instances of Q actually being hurt. Why should we assume an immortal being is vulnerable to normal threats?

Ah, so he has to turn off a default perfect-invulnerability shield rather than using his power to actively protect himself? What a crock of shit; please justify this perfect-invulnerability shield.

Why couldn't he use his power passively to protect himself? Is there any logical reason to think he's incapable of it? He's billions of years old and likes to really piss people off, odds are someone somewhere took a shot at him when he wasn't expecting it.

[Darth Yoshi]

Why couldn't he use his power passively to protect himself? Is there any logical reason to think he's incapable of it? He's billions of years old and likes to really piss people off, odds are someone somewhere took a shot at him when he wasn't expecting it.

The same logical reason that Borg don't have KE shields. We've never seen it in action.

[Eframepilot]

Except your analogy requires you to be right, instead of illustrating my point. And the analogy does hold, for relative tech levels. A flintlock will seem very magical and mysterious to all but the most-learned of a High Fantasy setting, just as Q's powers seem mystical and impossible unless you look closely at other existing technology which can do similar things, on smaller scales.

Yes, but Q's "magic wand" hasn't been revealed to be a flintlock; it's a mysterious weapon powered by the cores of stars that looks like a Civil War musket. As far as we know, the weapon just manipulates Q power in a more powerful way than Q can. If wizards and con-men are both confirmed to exist and can do the same exact things and you meet someone claiming to be a wizard, what do you do? You don't assume he is a con-man until proven otherwise; you look at all the evidence of his stunts and see if they fit "magic" or "technology" better. Occam's Razor doesn't mean we assume "con-man" if we know he could be a wizard.

[The Silence and I]

Why couldn't he use his power passively to protect himself? Is there any logical reason to think he's incapable of it? He's billions of years old and likes to really piss people off, odds are someone somewhere took a shot at him when he wasn't expecting it.

The same logical reason that Borg don't have KE shields. We've never seen it in action.

Nice try, Yoshi. If a Borg drone could do a tenth of what Q can, then maybie you would have a point. If the Q require weapons capable of destroying stars to harm each other, then it is hardly a stretch of the imagination to assume they can defend themselves passively. Also, for all of you who insist the Q must use technology because it can explain what they do, explain why they can't simply have a form of shield raised at all times, unless specifically disabled? Your arguments come close to requiring the Q have shields, now you ignore/forget that when you demand evidence the Q can passively defend themselves?

[SirNitram]

Except your analogy requires you to be right, instead of illustrating my point. And the analogy does hold, for relative tech levels. A flintlock will seem very magical and mysterious to all but the most-learned of a High Fantasy setting, just as Q's powers seem mystical and impossible unless you look closely at other existing technology which can do similar things, on smaller scales.

Yes, but Q's "magic wand" hasn't been revealed to be a flintlock; it's a mysterious weapon powered by the cores of stars that looks like a Civil War musket. As far as we know, the weapon just manipulates Q power in a more powerful way than Q can. If wizards and con-men are both confirmed to exist and can do the same exact things and you meet someone claiming to be a wizard, what do you do? You don't assume he is a con-man until proven otherwise; you look at all the evidence of his stunts and see if they fit "magic" or "technology" better. Occam's Razor doesn't mean we assume "con-man" if we know he could be a wizard.

You're reaching, now. They are stated to be powered with the core of a star(I wonder if that's metaphorical or literal?), and you claim it could manipulate Q-power. Stop grasping at straws so obviously, please.

[Eframepilot]

You're reaching, now. They are stated to be powered with the core of a star(I wonder if that's metaphorical or literal?), and you claim it could manipulate Q-power. Stop grasping at straws so obviously, please.

I didn't so much claim as propose it. Again, we don't know how the weapons work or what they really do besides such the cores out of stars and kill Q. To return to the High Fantasy analogy, if the guy claiming to be a wizard used a "magic wand" of unknown operating principle to kill another wizard, we still could not assume he was a con-man by his use of technology. Hell, Harry Potter's wand counts as technology. We need more evidence than the Q weapons to reach a conclusion.

[Darth Wong]

Precisely. A human needs something external to himself in order to kill himself. This means the Q continuum can keep Quinn from killing himself.

How? Did they put all the guns, cliffs and black holes in the universe out of reach? Is there someone assigned to Quinn constantly countering all threats? No Q was watching Quinn when he made his suicide attempt on Voyager; if jumping into a black hole could have killed him, he'd have done it instead.

Actually, Delancie-Q was assigned to do precisely that: watch him. He successfully committed suicide because Delancie-Q let him. Yet again (as with your attempt to use "inability to disconnect" as proof of innate power as opposed to external source), you make a point which is completely contradicted by the canon events.

Why couldn't he use his power passively to protect himself? Is there any logical reason to think he's incapable of it? He's billions of years old and likes to really piss people off, odds are someone somewhere took a shot at him when he wasn't expecting it.

Are you too fucking stupid to recognize that the burden of proof is upon those who would claim the existence of a phenomenon (or ability in this case) rather than those who wouldn't?

[Eframepilot]

Actually, Delancie-Q was assigned to do precisely that: watch him. He successfully committed suicide because Delancie-Q let him. Yet again (as with your attempt to use "inability to disconnect" as proof of innate power as opposed to external source), you make a point which is completely contradicted by the canon events.

Delancie-Q didn't show up until after Quinn had puffed all the men of Voyager away, and even then he wasn't certain what was going on. Yet again you totally misinterpret canon events. By your logic, Quinn could have grabbed a phaser and blown his own head off in the time no one was aware he had escaped. Pity he wasn't aware that physical force could hurt him.

Are you too fucking stupid to recognize that the burden of proof is upon those who would claim the existence of a phenomenon (or ability in this case) rather than those who wouldn't?

Are you too fucking stupid to see that this ability is a logical extrapolation of Q's other canon abilities? He could just put up a forcefield transparent to light, sound, and other things below a safety threshold and be practically invincible.

Another piece of evidence: Q weapons. To kill each other they use weapons that destroy stars as a side effect. Why bother building these if they could just use ordinary sniper rifles to kill each other by surprise? Or they could teleport rocks into their opponents brains' without warning. If the Q are as vulnerable as you claim, they should have infinitely many ways of killing each other without needing supernova weapons.

[Rhoades]

How? Did they put all the guns, cliffs and black holes in the universe out of reach? Is there someone assigned to Quinn constantly countering all threats? No Q was watching Quinn when he made his suicide attempt on Voyager; if jumping into a black hole could have killed him, he'd have done it instead.

Oh, boy. You gotta love this Feast or Famine mentality (aka Circular Logic).

But, I will ask this question, since I don't know entirely: Exactly how did Quinn attempt suicide on Voyager. Using the Feast or Famine, that aleast should kill a Q, since Quinn wouldn't had bothered otherwise.

Also, if no Q was watching/stopping him, why didn't Quinn just grap a Q-weapon and blow his brains out?

[Eframepilot]

Oh, boy. You gotta love this Feast or Famine mentality (aka Circular Logic).

But, I will ask this question, since I don't know entirely: Exactly how did Quinn attempt suicide on Voyager. Using the Feast or Famine, that aleast should kill a Q, since Quinn wouldn't had bothered otherwise.

Quinn did a funny gesture with his hand - his equivalent of a finger snap - and all of the men on Voyager vanished. Assumedly he tried to poof himself out of existence with his own powers but missed somehow. The males were just "gone", but Quinn called the more competent DeLancie Q who managed to bring them back. Q said he had been trying to kill himself unsuccessfully for millenia.

Also, if no Q was watching/stopping him, why didn't Quinn just grap a Q-weapon and blow his brains out?

What, from the Q-weapon armory on Voyager? I would assume Q weapons are only found in the Continuum and under some sort of guard - not something Quinn could hope to get without being found out and stopped.

[Lord Poe]

Of course, all of this assumes that a Q's "real" body can be damaged by physical violence at all, and that the Sisko incident wasn't a total illusion. Expecting Han Solo and Chewbacca to kill Q is the height of illogic.

And you jumping through hoops trying to grasp for those elusive straws is the height of hilarity. If you contend that the Sisko incident was a ttotal illusion, then you must contend that everything we've ever seen Q do is an illusion.

This is of course, bullshit, right? Well then, we are back to square one. Sisko pops Q in the face, catching Mr. Omnipotent off guard and causes pain. So can Han Solo. So can Chewbacca.

If Q can feel pain from a punch in the nose, he can feel even more pain by getting his head bashed in and his arms ripped off. If he's taken unawares fast with devastating force he'll have no time to wiggle his nose and send anyone to the cornfield.

In "Q and the Grey", the female Q received a bruise on her face, not by a "Q weapon", but by being tossed about the human made bridge on the human made starship Voyager.

And we've never seen Guinan have anything CLOSE to Q powers, even when it would have benefited her to use them. So her attack in "Q Who" was going to be physical.

This is taking all the canon episodes at face value, without waving our arms above our head like Quentin Tarantino while knitting together one inane yarn after another to concoct a story that flies so far away from what actually happend it is eligible for frequeent flyer miles when it gets back.

[Eframepilot]

Of course, all of this assumes that a Q's "real" body can be damaged by physical violence at all, and that the Sisko incident wasn't a total illusion. Expecting Han Solo and Chewbacca to kill Q is the height of illogic.

And you jumping through hoops trying to grasp for those elusive straws is the height of hilarity. If you contend that the Sisko incident was a ttotal illusion, then you must contend that everything we've ever seen Q do is an illusion.

Leap of Logic.

This is of course, bullshit, right? Well then, we are back to square one. Sisko pops Q in the face, catching Mr. Omnipotent off guard and causes pain. So can Han Solo. So can Chewbacca.

Maybe, if they're in a boxing ring created by Q and he's begging them to lay one on him. He got knocked down in a situation he created specifically to give Sisko the chance to knock him down.

If Q can feel pain from a punch in the nose, he can feel even more pain by getting his head bashed in and his arms ripped off. If he's taken unawares fast with devastating force he'll have no time to wiggle his nose and send anyone to the cornfield.

He's a billion-year-old immortal being whose hobby is pissing people off. If he could be killed by a sniper rifle, odds are it would have happened. We don't know if he felt any pain from Sisko's punch. We don't know if his body was the slightest bit damaged. We don't even know if "killing" his body when he's fully empowered would affect him.

In "Q and the Grey", the female Q received a bruise on her face, not by a "Q weapon", but by being tossed about the human made bridge on the human made starship Voyager.

Let's just ignore the fact that she was POWERLESS at the time, and that she probably got the bruise from bouncing off the barrier to the Continuum.

And we've never seen Guinan have anything CLOSE to Q powers, even when it would have benefited her to use them. So her attack in "Q Who" was going to be physical.

Oh yes, she waves her fingers at a damn near omnipotent being because she intends to jump him. That makes sooo much sense.

This is taking all the canon episodes at face value, without waving our arms above our head like Quentin Tarantino while knitting together one inane yarn after another to concoct a story that flies so far away from what actually happend it is eligible for frequeent flyer miles when it gets back.

I'm all for taking things at face value, but Q is an immortal superbeing who can hang out before (and during) the Big Bang, shrink to the size of a proton, retain sentience in the form of an amoeba and bring back the DEAD (Riker could have resurrected the little girl in "Hide and Q"). You need an instance of his actually being seriously hurt by physical force to claim this absurd vulnerability, not this ambiguous bullshit.

[Darth Wong]

Delancie-Q didn't show up until after Quinn had puffed all the men of Voyager away, and even then he wasn't certain what was going on.

Oh of course, he wasn't watching Quinn at all; he just HAPPENED to take a random look at around the same time Quinn was released? Are you going to claim that because it took minutes instead of seconds for him to show up, he must not have been watching?

Yet again you totally misinterpret canon events. By your logic, Quinn could have grabbed a phaser and blown his own head off in the time no one was aware he had escaped. Pity he wasn't aware that physical force could hurt him.

Physical force obviously CAN hurt him, otherwise they wouldn't have weapons that can kill a Q. Doesn't mean a hand phaser would necessarily do the trick; they can't even punch a hole thruogh a thin-walled cargo container.

Are you too fucking stupid to recognize that the burden of proof is upon those who would claim the existence of a phenomenon (or ability in this case) rather than those who wouldn't?

Are you too fucking stupid to see that this ability is a logical extrapolation of Q's other canon abilities? He could just put up a forcefield transparent to light, sound, and other things below a safety threshold and be practically invincible.

One which acts with zero mental co-ordination from Q? There is a different between "logical extrapolation" and "steaming pile of bullshit".

Another piece of evidence: Q weapons. To kill each other they use weapons that destroy stars as a side effect. Why bother building these if they could just use ordinary sniper rifles to kill each other by surprise?

Why don't you take notice of the fact that the number of stars exploding is nowhere near commensurate to the number of weapon discharges supposedly taking place in this "war?" Why do you take everything a known inveterate liar says as the gospel truth?

Or they could teleport rocks into their opponents brains' without warning. If the Q are as vulnerable as you claim, they should have infinitely many ways of killing each other without needing supernova weapons.

And so they have, since their guns do not set off supernova every time they are used. Moreover, Voyager's crew was able to use them without difficulty, hence they could not be particularly energetic or exotic. How do you know they weren't actually killing each other with simple projectile weapons, since that's exactly how they behaved?