Defending the Federation(RAR)

[Eternal_Freedom]

I was thinking smaller cores, so you don't need the "constantly contained overload" shit that's apparently going on in the Galaxy warp core. That way, they are actually safer because they are less likely to breach from Disaster of the Week.

[Batman]

I was thinking smaller cores, so you don't need the "constantly contained overload" shit that's apparently going on in the Galaxy warp core. That way, they are actually safer because they are less likely to breach from Disaster of the Week.

Then the way to go would be one bigger core, not several smaller ones. The idea absolutely has merit because multiple cores means a degree of redundancy, but one big core is going to be more efficient than several small ones given the same overall power output. The problem with the Flight 1 Galaxy core apparently was that it wasn't big enough for the desired output so they pretty much designed it to be redlined as SOP.

[Eternal_Freedom]

SO what if they had two Galaxy-sized cores that aren't constantly being redlined? Surely that would be more power and a lot safer?

[Batman]

SO what if they had two Galaxy-sized cores that aren't constantly being redlined? Surely that would be more power and a lot safer?

Absolutely. All we're saying is a single core designed to supply the same amount of power without being constantly redlined would be more efficient. Of course that (and Rommel123) arbitrarily assumes they can build a core that powerful. If not, multiple cores would not only be safer, it would be pretty much the only way to increase power output.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Also, a bigger core would be a better solution than just "shove in more fuel" that Rommel is suggesting, which is apparently what the first-flight Galaxy class does anyway. Although, again, all that odes is increase fuel consumption. Kinda like an afterburner I suppose. Better performance at the cost of endurance.

I have to wonder why (in-universe) they didnt do that on the GCS anyway. It was supposed to be their big new ship, so why not have multiple cores? I suppose their designers are just retarded.

(Or, as a perusal of the main site reveals, the GCs designers were scientists not engineers. oops! for the Federation there.)

[Darth Tedious]

Meanwhile, all the R & D funding that's being poured into bigger warp cores could have been being used to finance the fight against the rogue Imperial fleet...

Assuming they didn't take the 'free blowjobs in the holodec' option (I would have).

If they did decide to just start raping and pillaging their way around the MW, is there much that could be done to contain them? I mean, I was the one who suggested closing the wormhole in the first place, but I'm pretty boned for strategy from there if they're not impressed by holodecs...

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well if the wormhole is closed, the extant Imperial forces are trapped with no logistical base in a galaxy whose techis too inferior to be of much help in terms of manufacturing spares or even replacing fuel and so on.

Therefore, every time you damage a ship is an irreplaceable part for them ultimately. Heck, if they can't find more hypermatter fuel, every hyperspace jump or even every shield impact represents an irreplaceable loss.

Sure, Star Wars ships outgun and outlast ST ones. But even if your ships can kill a thousand enemy ships before dying, the the enemy outnumbers you more than a 1000 to one, and they can replace those losses (and the Dominion apparently can replace massive losses), then you will lose. It's only a matter of time.

The only way I can see the Imperial forces remaining effective in this scenario, after the wormhole closes, is if they brought World Devastators and/or factory ships with them.

Where I to be launching the Imperial campaign, that is most definitely the FIRST thing I would ask for from High Command.

[Darth Tedious]

As head of the Federation, I still think it's brown pants time if they don't accept the friendship offer. As far as effective weaponry goes, has anyone ever worked out if a warp core explosion would hurt an ISD? Kamikaze tactics could prove useful.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Several of the fanfics I have read such as Mike's "Conquest" and the Duchess's "De Imperatoribus Galactus" describe ships packed with antimatter and sent on suicide flights. In those settings they are effective en masse.

You are right about the brown-trousers thing though. If I were talking to them in that situation, I would again take the opportunistic route:

"look lads, you're cut off from home, with no way back in your lifetimes. So you're basically refugees. Well that's cool, we in the Federation welcome refugees with open arms. You need support, and so I'm sure we can come to an acceptable arrangement. We'd be happy to provide what technology we have that might interest you, like replicators, transporters and holodecks. We could even offer you an inhabitable planet and help colonising if you like. All we'd ask in return is some help with our own technology, which is sorely lacking comapred to yours of course."

Key points there is to make it clear that we are technologically inferior, so are no real threat, but are able to offer them a lot in return for a little assistance.

Heck, I'll change my plans. Close the wormhole post-haste, then go with the speech above. If that doesn't work, well, we can g with the guerilla option, remind them of that and reinforce that they are cut off from home.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That is true DXIII, but I'm liking the "close wormhole, persuade Imps to accept Federation help" more and more. Having a realistic chance of overwhelming ISD's makes it even juicier.

After all, why bother fighting if you can achieve the same or better results without fighting at all?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Bingo. Make it clear to them that now they are cut off, they have no realistic chances of winning, and every chance of losing all their ships to no real gain.

I think it's important to avoid saying "defeat is inevitable," or else they might decide to wreck as much as they can before they die. Saying that defeat is very likely has the same effect without pushing them into a corner.

[Batman]

It's a pity they don't have a realistic chance of overwhelming an ISD. D13, as usual, chooses to ignore LFL's official canon policy and the fact that the main site hasn't been updated in ages. 200GT MTLs on Acclamators and all the other EU numbers he doesn't like stand. I don't care how many Starfleet ships you amass, as long as the ISD is fully operational, you're not taking it down.
You may very well leave it dead in space after having effortlessly eliminated all its attackers because it used its last remains of hypermatter to do so, because as others have said, once the wormhole is closed, unless they brought the means to establish a local infrastructure capable of supporting their needs (and I seriously doubt even World Devastators have the capability to supply them with hypermatter), they're limited to onboard stores.

[Ace_of_Spades]

Question: If you plan to close the wormhole and try to barter some technology from the stranded Imperial forces, how are you going to keep them from knowing you're the ones who closed the wormhole and stranded them there in the first place? I can't imagine they wouldn't leave a defense force around the wormhole and they'd be pretty likely to notice your attempts to technobabble the wormhole away.

[Batman]

Not necessarily. Apparently, collapsing a wormhole is pathetically easy (Sisko expected to be able to do it with a few quantum torpedoes), the 'not being able to fire while cloaked' has been a goner since TUC and while it is entirely possible Wars sensors can detect a cloaked Trek ship, it's by no means guaranteed. So theoratically, the Trek side could send in a cloaked ship, collapse the wormhole, and run away before the Imperials could react.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's a good point. I suppose some kind of subterfuge is in order. Perhaps (with the advance warning and foreknowledge granted by the OP) create some kind of holographic cloak for the ships assigned to close the wormhole, so they look like Borg ships or something.

Actually, that's even better, the Imperials would then be more inclined to buttstomp the Borg than they otherwise might be.

[Purple]

Here is a question for you. After the wormhole is collapsed, what exactly is stopping the imperial force from taking revenge upon every faction they can find that has cloaking? After all, you don't need to BDZ planets, just really mess them up.

[Ace_of_Spades]

Does the Federation have access to holographic cloaking? I'd assume something is technobabbable since they have such a hard on for holodecks, but have they ever been shown to be able to create a holofield around an entire ship?

[Batman]

Which would gain them-what, exactly? Other than the short-term satisfaction of having murdered a lot of people who couldn't fight back in the first place? They're stuck in the Trek galaxy. Murderizing the very people who can give them the closest approximation of the life they knew is somewhat contraindicated, I think.

[Batman]

Does the Federation have access to holographic cloaking? I'd assume something is technobabbable since they have such a hard on for holodecks, but have they ever been shown to be able to create a holofield around an entire ship?

Err-they can make the entire ship disappear. Yes, they absolutely do. I think you're confusing cloaking the ship (i.e. hiding it) with making it look like something else.

[Purple]

In essence what I am saying is the fallowing. With the wormhole we have a hostile force that is incredibly powerful, has endless supplies and can not be stopped. Without the wormhole we have a hostile force that is incredibly powerful, is now short on supplies (well short as in can only last a couple of years without refueling or something), incredibly pissed off and still can not be stopped.

I think this needs a proper cost-benefit analysis.

[Eternal_Freedom]

In essence what I am saying is the fallowing. With the wormhole we have a hostile force that is incredibly powerful, has endless supplies and can not be stopped. Without the wormhole we have a hostile force that is incredibly powerful, is now short on supplies (well short as in can only last a couple of years without refueling or something), incredibly pissed off and still can not be stopped.

I think this needs a proper cost-benefit analysis.

Wormhole open: Imperial forces that have effectively unlimted supplies and combat endurance. Effectively unlimited numbers as well. Imperial forces out to conquer/enslave as much as possible of the local powers, probably with an eye to keeping infrasructure intact.

Wormhole closed: finite, fixed number of Imperial ships with no possiblity of refueling or resupply or reinforcement. Still out to conquer as much as possible, but with an even greater desire to maintain existing infrastructure.

I know I would rather take on the second option, not the first. Add the fact that the second option provides an Imperial fleet trapped here, cut off from home. Every missile they fire and every fighter they lose is suddenly an asset they cannot afford to waste casually. If the ST universe has no way of gathering more hypermatter fuel, then every turbolaser shot they fire and every hyperjump they make is one they can't get back.

Purple, I fail to see how notclosing the wormhole can possibly be a better option. Perhaps you could explain it for me?

[Batman]

There's jack all the AQ can do while the wormhole is open. Once it is closed, the Imps are best served by coming to some sort of arrangement with the locals. While the Imps can pretty much ignore anything the AQ throws their way while their supplies last, that's just the point. Their supplies aren't going to.
Personally, I'd just sell my ship to the Ferengi for 19 quadrillion bars of gold-pressed latinum and retire to Risa, laughing all the time as they desperately try to figure out how the blasted thing works.

[Purple]

Purple, I fail to see how notclosing the wormhole can possibly be a better option. Perhaps you could explain it for me?

I newer said it was either. All I did was point out both sides of the situation listing the pros and cons of it and than stated that it needs a more detailed analysis before proceeding.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Which I think has been done by myself and Batman. I'll summarise:

With the wormhole open, the Empire is unbeatable. Even if the AQ powers magically defeated the first fleet throug hthe wormhole, they would take losses. And then along comes the second fleet. And the third, and so on.

With the wormhole open, there is NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER of victory by the Federation, or even every power in the ST Milky Way. The Empire trumps them in industrial capacity, strategic speed and individual ship strength.

If the wormhole is closed, then there is a chance. A slim one perhaps, but I'll take a slim chance over no chance any day.

This can be compared sort of to DS9. The Federation knew that allowing the Dominion control of the Bajoran wormhole was suicide. So they made every effort to keep control of the wormhole, even getting what is literally divine intervention to help.

The situation in the OP is the same. Keeping the wormhole open is suicide.

[Eternal_Freedom]

DXIII has a very good point here. This isn't jsut another Feddies vs Empire scenario. It's one where the Federation knows quite literally everything there is to know about the Empire, or can access the information. That's a BIG advantage. Just knowing that forcing them to raise shields drains irreplaceable fuel is a major thing.

Picture this: Starship appears, fires off salvos of torpedoes, retreats. ISD has to raise shields and power point-defence guns. This uses fuel, which without the wormhole they have no way of replenishing.

Normally I side with the Empire in these scenarios. But in this one, I think that having a closed wormhole and having someone who knows all about SW in charge of the Federation would tip the balance. It would be bloody, there's no doubt of that. But the Federation can actaully win. Depending on the SW commanders, the Federation might actually come out on top if the SW commander trades old tech for a planet to live on or whatever.