Taking up the ST/SW issue with a philosophical approach

[Kurgan]

Mindless goons? They're efficient soldiers in a military that is trying to bring stability to their galaxy. The entire Empire cannot be dismissed as evil, no moreso than one could decide every German Wermacht soldier in WWII was a staunch believer in Hitler's bullshit.

Oh no, here we go again with the "The Empire is not evil, just because they kill billions of their own people every day"...

Heh. Despite the "hidden evil" of the Federation's racism and prime directive isolationism, they're responsible for far fewer deaths than the Empire, and they let more non-human aliens into their ranks than the Empire ever did.

There's really no comparison. When it comes down to it, the terms I'd use would be "self-righteous moral cowards" compared to "evil bastards."

[Worlds Spanner]

There's really no comparison. When it comes down to it, the terms I'd use would be "self-righteous moral cowards" compared to "evil bastards."

I like that description.

[Enforcer Talen]

Mindless goons? They're efficient soldiers in a military that is trying to bring stability to their galaxy. The entire Empire cannot be dismissed as evil, no moreso than one could decide every German Wermacht soldier in WWII was a staunch believer in Hitler's bullshit.

Oh no, here we go again with the "The Empire is not evil, just because they kill billions of their own people every day"...

Heh. Despite the "hidden evil" of the Federation's racism and prime directive isolationism, they're responsible for far fewer deaths than the Empire, and they let more non-human aliens into their ranks than the Empire ever did.

There's really no comparison. When it comes down to it, the terms I'd use would be "self-righteous moral cowards" compared to "evil bastards."

well, the feds are a lot *smaller*then the empire, so their body count would be lower. just not enough people to kill to equal alderaan.

[Peregrin Toker]

Mindless goons? They're efficient soldiers in a military that is trying to bring stability to their galaxy. The entire Empire cannot be dismissed as evil, no moreso than one could decide every German Wermacht soldier in WWII was a staunch believer in Hitler's bullshit.

Oh no, here we go again with the "The Empire is not evil, just because they kill billions of their own people every day"...

Heh. Despite the "hidden evil" of the Federation's racism and prime directive isolationism, they're responsible for far fewer deaths than the Empire, and they let more non-human aliens into their ranks than the Empire ever did.

There's really no comparison. When it comes down to it, the terms I'd use would be "self-righteous moral cowards" compared to "evil bastards."

well, the feds are a lot *smaller*then the empire, so their body count would be lower. just not enough people to kill to equal alderaan.

Still, the Federation is not as openly militaristic as the Empire, and it doesn't relish public display of martial power as the Empire.

[Typhonis 1]

So he surrendered to SUPERIOR numbers .The Field Marshal you are talking about was in charge of the 6th Army and they were surrounded and about to be wiped out at a little town called Stalingrad.

[Enforcer Talen]

and they were starving. and freezing. and wihtout decent shelter.

that lowers morale, a tad.

[Worlds Spanner]

Um...yeah, that was my point.

[Crazedwraith]

Mindless goons? They're efficient soldiers in a military that is trying to bring stability to their galaxy. The entire Empire cannot be dismissed as evil, no moreso than one could decide every German Wermacht soldier in WWII was a staunch believer in Hitler's bullshit.

Oh no, here we go again with the "The Empire is not evil, just because they kill billions of their own people every day"...

Heh. Despite the "hidden evil" of the Federation's racism and prime directive isolationism, they're responsible for far fewer deaths than the Empire, and they let more non-human aliens into their ranks than the Empire ever did.

There's really no comparison. When it comes down to it, the terms I'd use would be "self-righteous moral cowards" compared to "evil bastards."

The point is that although the leaders of the Empire are undoubtably evil. you cannot say that every single crewman in on every single imperiel ship is evil. there will be plenty that disagree with blowing up alderaan ,or base delta zeros. Its been a while since i read Heir to the Empire but as a recall the first scene with Pelleon was one that expressed the Imperiel officers disapproval of th death Stars and had wanted to beleive the first one was just "Tarkin's Folly" and not what the emperor condoned.
I also think there are scenes in NJO's "Conquest" that illistate my point quite nicely

[Typhonis 1]

Interesting thought what affects wold a Death Star HAVE on the planet it orbits??? I mean its aprox 100 miles across what kind of stuff will it do through gravity alone?

[Darth Wong]

Interesting thought what affects wold a Death Star HAVE on the planet it orbits??? I mean its aprox 100 miles across what kind of stuff will it do through gravity alone?

Tidal forces, environmental disruptions, etc. Mind you, since it's being held in an anti-grav field, it might not have any effect at all. DS2 was much too close to the planet to be in a natural geosynchronous orbit.

[Worlds Spanner]

The point is that although the leaders of the Empire are undoubtably evil. you cannot say that every single crewman in on every single imperiel ship is evil. there will be plenty that disagree with blowing up alderaan ,or base delta zeros. Its been a while since i read Heir to the Empire but as a recall the first scene with Pelleon was one that expressed the Imperiel officers disapproval of th death Stars and had wanted to beleive the first one was just "Tarkin's Folly" and not what the emperor condoned.
I also think there are scenes in NJO's "Conquest" that illistate my point quite nicely

So long as the soldiers follow orders, the actions they perform are evil, even if they cannot be held morally responsible.

Morever, since the leadership is evil, the policies and methods of the GE, based on their orders, are evil.

Therefore, the Empire is evil.

[Thirdfain]

So long as the soldiers follow orders, the actions they perform are evil, even if they cannot be held morally responsible.

Morever, since the leadership is evil, the policies and methods of the GE, based on their orders, are evil.

Therefore, the Empire is evil.

I must question the ability of our limited, single-planet moral compass to judge the actions of a massive, galaxy-spanning civilization. While I certainly can't condone the Empire's actions, I can assert that we have no idea what it takes to actually run something so vast as a multispecies galactic civilization. The seemingly barbaric acts perpetrated by the Empire may simply be what is necessary to ensure order and security....
Or maybe not. My point is, we simple individuals can not pass judgement on the actions with a body such as the Emipre, not without more knowledge of it's workings and necessities.

[Darth Wong]

So long as the soldiers follow orders, the actions they perform are evil, even if they cannot be held morally responsible.

Morever, since the leadership is evil, the policies and methods of the GE, based on their orders, are evil.

Therefore, the Empire is evil.

I must question the ability of our limited, single-planet moral compass to judge the actions of a massive, galaxy-spanning civilization. While I certainly can't condone the Empire's actions, I can assert that we have no idea what it takes to actually run something so vast as a multispecies galactic civilization. The seemingly barbaric acts perpetrated by the Empire may simply be what is necessary to ensure order and security....

It depends on what you consider "evil" in real life. If you believe that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were truly righteous acts of goodness, then I don't see why you would have a problem with Alderaan. The galaxy was in a state of CIVIL WAR; this means that Alderaan, by supporting the Rebellion through various means, was the enemy.

Or maybe not. My point is, we simple individuals can not pass judgement on the actions with a body such as the Emipre, not without more knowledge of it's workings and necessities.

I think we can pass judgement, but that judgement depends heavily on what kind of moral values you subscribe to regarding real-life nations.

[Worlds Spanner]

So long as the soldiers follow orders, the actions they perform are evil, even if they cannot be held morally responsible.

Morever, since the leadership is evil, the policies and methods of the GE, based on their orders, are evil.

Therefore, the Empire is evil.

I must question the ability of our limited, single-planet moral compass to judge the actions of a massive, galaxy-spanning civilization. While I certainly can't condone the Empire's actions, I can assert that we have no idea what it takes to actually run something so vast as a multispecies galactic civilization. The seemingly barbaric acts perpetrated by the Empire may simply be what is necessary to ensure order and security....
Or maybe not. My point is, we simple individuals can not pass judgement on the actions with a body such as the Emipre, not without more knowledge of it's workings and necessities.

This "massive, galaxy-spanning civilization" is a work of fiction created by an individual human who shares our "limited, single-planet moral compass."

There's no question that moral relativism does not apply here. There just isn't.

Moreover, there is the whole dark image of the sith, of the imperial fleet, of the Imperial march, etc ad nauseum.

You can't claim that the villians of a space opera aren't evil! Maybe you can, but not this time.

Let me make this really simple here.

Emperor= Dark Lord of the Sith=DARK side=Builder of lots of nasty weapons=killer of lots of innocent people=head of the Empire which is a totalitarian state that he rules over absolutely=bad guy who is fought by the good guys=EVIL.

The basic good/evil concept is built into us starting when we are very small, and it's obvious the the GE deliberately matches and reinforces this stereotype.

[Enforcer Talen]

I wouldnt call "Hiroshima and Nagasaki were truly righteous acts of goodness" -they were the mass slaughter of 140,000 people, after all - but I would say were the best evil available, if there is such a thing. they ended the war, along with the soviet help - of course, alderaan didn't end the war, presumably because the weapon was lost a few days later.

a second test, I would presume, would end the war.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

The destruction of Alderaan was not an evil act. It was a time of civil war, and Alderaan belonged to the enemy's side. It is important to note that Alderaan is a Core World held by the Rebels, it is in fact a PERFECT staging area for an assualt on say, Coruscant. So you can let your enemy have a base right next to your capital, or you can wipe it out.

Now sure, they could've sent in dozens of ships, bombarded the shields until they buckled, and sent in ground troops, but they would've took untold casualties once the Rebels started fighting back. Not a wise decision.

Tarkin did what was in the best interests of keeping the peace in the Core.

[JodoForce]

I must question the ability of our limited, single-planet moral compass to judge the actions of a massive, galaxy-spanning civilization. While I certainly can't condone the Empire's actions, I can assert that we have no idea what it takes to actually run something so vast as a multispecies galactic civilization. The seemingly barbaric acts perpetrated by the Empire may simply be what is necessary to ensure order and security....

If that is the case there shouldn't have been a galactic empire in the first place.

And anyway what about the Old Republic, which lasted thousands of years without such brutalities?

[Thirdfain]

If that is the case there shouldn't have been a galactic empire in the first place.

And anyway what about the Old Republic, which lasted thousands of years without such brutalities?

Ha! "No brutalities?" Every shred of evidence we see shows a violence-racked past for the galaxy. Whether it's sith lords, petty war chieftans, or multisector corporations, the Old Republichad it's share of problems. Frankly, we just don't know enough about the Old Republic's operation to make any judgements about it's effectiveness at governing the galaxy.

[Enforcer Talen]

the empire, aside from the pirates on the rim, seemed to produce stability. whether that was worth the dictatorship is up to you.

[Darth Wong]

The Old Republic was an example of craven indifference to injustice. There were people being held in slavery just HOURS away from their seat of power, with no credible military force to oppose Republic control, and they don't care. How much else was going on in the Outer Rim that we didn't hear about?

The Empire came in and put a stop to that. They brought in law and order, and broke the power of the mega-corporations which were running the Republic. Whether you feel that the change was worth it is up to you. As for the Alderaan thing, I would have no problem accepting that as proof of evil if one is willing to make the same conclusion for Nagasaki. If not, then one could easily argue that many of the same arguments apply.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Old Republic was an example of craven indifference to injustice. There were people being held in slavery just HOURS away from their seat of power,

There were still slaves on Tattooine as of ANH. Jabba had slaves. Hell, the Empire themselves often enslaved aliens and failures/traitors simply for the hell of it. Naturally this doesn't change the fact that the OR politicans watched the galaxy rot from their golden palaces.

with no credible military force to oppose Republic control, and they don't care.

Republic attempts to reign in the Outer Rim and its wildly exploitive economic organs was met with hostility (like the Nabooian miners) and finally, outright war. The Republic was impotent, you are correct, however.

How much else was going on in the Outer Rim that we didn't hear about?

The Empire came in and put a stop to that.

Hutt Space ran itself just fine with all sorts of sordid trades. In fact, they were in bed with the local Moff's administration, which is why they were never shut down and continued to enslave and corrupt at will. Xizor seemed free to corrupt and extort and cheat and was a cohort of the Emperor himself. About the only thing that changed in the Outer Rim is you faced Imperial crackdown if you interfered with the Empire themselves or infringed on the needs of the powerful in the Empire. The Azzameen's company struggled and regularly had to search their own stores for pirates (some Imperial law and order) and even for contraband planted by other corporations which had friendly deals with the Empire. The entire enterprise was seized by the Empire and sold off to Imperial lackeys and to outright thugs, such as a group of terrorist mercenaries who would later use the Azzameen's home as a base in attacks.

They brought in law and order,

I've read a lot of EU, and personally, I can't tell the difference between the non-Core Worlds before and after the Clone Wars. The Empire nationalized many corporations, and gave them free reign to oppress, enslave, and otherwise abuse the population of the Corporate Sector--so long as Palpatine got a cut of the profits.

So far as I can tell, the Empire imposed law and order for those who gave paybacks to the political arm and to the local Moff. Esp. in the Outer Rim, if you weren't one of those individuals, you were in the same shit as you were in the Old Republic...well...except for that now the criminals were often backed by Imperials.

and broke the power of the mega-corporations which were running the Republic.

The replacements which ran the Corporate Sector and used slave labor and got the Empire to run their competition out of business often don't seem all that better to me.

Whether you feel that the change was worth it is up to you.

Life was probably mostly unchanged in the Core--unless you were an alien. Than you could get beaten and detained for thinking you could approach a human restaurant. And you got your own military-enforced ghetto on Coruscant. Fun. Did I mention the COMPNOR ideological testing?

As for the Alderaan thing, I would have no problem accepting that as proof of evil if one is willing to make the same conclusion for Nagasaki.

The only known Rebel sympathizers were three Alderaanians, the Viceroy, his daughter, and her aide, Winter. Considering at least two of them were not on-world, and that the Empire knew one of them wasn't, I think it is a bit extreme to blow up the world as a show of force in order to make the populace fear them. I'm sure Americans might take exception to say...Portland being nuked because we thought the Oregon Senator and his family might be smuggling cash and arms to Al Queda. The "they were Rebel sympathizers" argument is bullshit, so far as I know...unless I've forgotten something. They had no weapons. The Empire could've declared martial law and apprehended the Viceroy, Leia, and Winter and sieze their funds. But, as Tarkin himself said, the idea was to rule thorugh fear.

About the only other things the Americans could've done with Nagasaki was give more time before dropping the bomb, drop the bomb on an uninhabited region at first, and/or except unconditional surrender. While I think the action invited undo bloodshed, I do not equate it with what the Empire did.

If not, then one could easily argue that many of the same arguments apply.

Indeed.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ha! "No brutalities?" Every shred of evidence we see shows a violence-racked past for the galaxy. Whether it's sith lords, petty war chieftans, or multisector corporations,

Only six major wars in 25,000 years is pretty good odds in my opinion. And according to several sources, the corporate corruption did not really set in until a couple hundred years before the Clone Wars.

Between the Great Schism and the Great Hyperspace War, there were 20,000 years of peace and prosperity.

Between the Great Hyperspace War and the Sith Wars (First Sith War, Mandalorian Wars, Second Sith War; all within 100 years) there were 1,000 years of peace and prosperity.

Between the Sith Wars and the Third Sith War, there were 3,000 years of peace and prosperity.

From the Third Sith War until the beginning of corruption and civil decay in the Old Republic was easily 700-900 years.

The Empire pales by comparison.

the Old Republichad it's share of problems. Frankly, we just don't know enough about the Old Republic's operation to make any judgements about it's effectiveness at governing the galaxy.

The fact that it is stated that corruption didn't set in until the last couple hundred years is definitely in its favor.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ha! "No brutalities?" Every shred of evidence we see shows a violence-racked past for the galaxy. Whether it's sith lords, petty war chieftans, or multisector corporations,

Only six major wars in 25,000 years is pretty good odds in my opinion. And according to several sources, the corporate corruption did not really set in until a couple hundred years before the Clone Wars.

Between the Great Schism/Unification Wars and the Great Hyperspace War, there were 20,000 years of peace and prosperity.

Between the Great Hyperspace War and the Sith Wars (First Sith War, Mandalorian Wars, Second Sith War; all within 100 years) there were 1,000 years of peace and prosperity.

Between the Sith Wars and the Third Sith War, there were 3,000 years of peace and prosperity.

From the Third Sith War until the beginning of corruption and civil decay in the Old Republic was easily 700-900 years.

The Empire pales by comparison.

the Old Republichad it's share of problems. Frankly, we just don't know enough about the Old Republic's operation to make any judgements about it's effectiveness at governing the galaxy.

The fact that it is stated that corruption didn't set in until the last couple hundred years is definitely in its favor.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Dammit. Forgot there was no edit button. Someone erase that, please.

[Nova Andromeda]

The Old Republic was an example of craven indifference to injustice. There were people being held in slavery just HOURS away from their seat of power, with no credible military force to oppose Republic control, and they don't care. How much else was going on in the Outer Rim that we didn't hear about?

The Empire came in and put a stop to that. They brought in law and order, and broke the power of the mega-corporations which were running the Republic. Whether you feel that the change was worth it is up to you. As for the Alderaan thing, I would have no problem accepting that as proof of evil if one is willing to make the same conclusion for Nagasaki. If not, then one could easily argue that many of the same arguments apply.

--It seems to me that the comparison is not very good. It would be more similar to Hitler or the Japanese nuking an American city during WWII. The means can only be justified after they are wieghed against the end result. The Empire was fighting to maintain a dictatorship (regardless of "sentient" rights) and crush democratic forces (which I assume supported "sentient" rights since I don't know the details from the E.U.). The U.S. nuked Nagasaki while fighting a war in support of human rights against Japan. In the end the U.S. did more good than harm in WWII while the Empire did more harm than good in its quest to suppress democratic forces. Whether or not the U.S. did the maximum good it could have is another question.
-As an aside, law and order are not necessarily good things. It entirely depends upon what the laws are and the kind of order you have. Their was law and order in the southern states of the U.S. when slavery existed and that was clearly not a good thing. How this relates to the Empire is not quite clear to me, however, they certainly didn't bring about optimal law and order with respect to morality.