1 SSD vs all of the Federation and It's allies

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The Feds have 12,000 based on DS9 Dominion War information. Durring peace they only field 4,000 ships.

How? If each fleet has 350 ships (average between 100 ship 7th fleet and "major" 600 ship) fleet and they have TWENTY fleets (highest ever heard was 11th, thats still 3500 ships.

Give me a break CS, you can't be serious. I have covered this issue time and time again and no one could reasonably deny that the Federation has 12,000 ships.

FYI, the word Elements when used in combination with numbers means parts of. So when you combine elements of two fleets together, that means you have also left parts out. So that means PART of a Fed fleet had 300 ships. And this was after 3 months of fighting and these fleets were on the front line.

Do also remember Weyoun saying "Two LARGE (emphasis mine) enemy fleets have broken off and you don't know why?"


Seems to me the 6th fleet was big.

[Alyeska]

How? If each fleet has 350 ships (average between 100 ship 7th fleet and "major" 600 ship) fleet and they have TWENTY fleets (highest ever heard was 11th, thats still 3500 ships.

Give me a break CS, you can't be serious. I have covered this issue time and time again and no one could reasonably deny that the Federation has 12,000 ships.

FYI, the word Elements when used in combination with numbers means parts of. So when you combine elements of two fleets together, that means you have also left parts out. So that means PART of a Fed fleet had 300 ships. And this was after 3 months of fighting and these fleets were on the front line.

Do also remember Weyoun saying "Two LARGE (emphasis mine) enemy fleets have broken off and you don't know why?"


Seems to me the 6th fleet was big.

Ever thought that they had to break off the fleets and repair them and estimate their strength before siphoning off ships to assist Sisko?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Ever thought that they had to break off the fleets and repair them and estimate their strength before siphoning off ships to assist Sisko?

What I remember is the 6th fleet and the 3rd (?) fleet broke off to Starbase 666 then attacked.

[Master of Ossus]

Seriously, Alyeska, you're grasping at straws. The Third and Sixth fleets were clearly large and important. Remember that they were the fleets designed to protect Earth from an attack (otherwise the admiralty would never have said that their removal would have left Earth a tempting target for the Dominion). Also, the quote that GAT presented with Weyoun indicates that the fleets were quite large and powerful.

[Alyeska]

Seriously, Alyeska, you're grasping at straws. The Third and Sixth fleets were clearly large and important. Remember that they were the fleets designed to protect Earth from an attack (otherwise the admiralty would never have said that their removal would have left Earth a tempting target for the Dominion). Also, the quote that GAT presented with Weyoun indicates that the fleets were quite large and powerful.

Yet quotes from SF itself said those fleets supplied ELEMENTS of their forces to Sisko. So GATs quote says the fleets are large, the SF quotes said they didn't give all their forces to Sisko.

Just tell me this. How did the Federation defeat the Dominion if after 2 years of war, they still had 15,000 ships? All sources indicate the Federation has more ships then the Klingons and Romulans. According to GAT that means less then 10,000 ships defeated 15,000 Dominion ships (and who knows how many Breen ships), and this isn't counting that they expected to defeat countless OWPs. And mind you GATs number is LOWER because the Federation had fewer ships after 2 years of fighting...

Just realized something. 12 fleets, 1,000 ships per fleet, 3-1 rule, 300 active ships per fleet...

GATs numbers don't specifically deny 12,000 ships, and with them cycling the inactive ships into service as quickly as possible, that would explain how the Federation could absorb losses and still field more ships to fight. It would also explain why ship names would suddenly be found on older ship classes later in the war after they had been seen earlier on newer ship classes earlier in the war or durring the pre war buildup/Klingon agression.

[Master of Ossus]

But another fleet only had 112 ships active.

More importantly, the Jem'Hadar ships were not nearly as powerful as the Federation, Romulan, or Klingon ships on a ship for ship basis. Many of their ships are just fighters.

More importantly, you completely disregard the fact that the Romulans and Klingons had dedicated substantial forces to the war effort when you state that 10,000 ships defeated 15,000 (and countless OWP's). Your claims are clearly erroneous.

[Alyeska]

But another fleet only had 112 ships active.

This fleet was 3 months into the war. It also doesn't take into account all of its ships not in active duty. All we know is that in a specific engagement of 112 ships, most were destroyed.

More importantly, the Jem'Hadar ships were not nearly as powerful as the Federation, Romulan, or Klingon ships on a ship for ship basis. Many of their ships are just fighters.

FYI, of all the Federation ships, we never saw any ship other then the Defiant destroy Dominion ships. Partially rebuilt Jem'Hadar Attackships are more powerful then ships equivilant to Mirandas, and thats without to heavy of damage.

Dominion Dreadnaughts are twice as long as the GCS and three times the firepower (DS9 Valiant)

More importantly, you completely disregard the fact that the Romulans and Klingons had dedicated substantial forces to the war effort when you state that 10,000 ships defeated 15,000 (and countless OWP's). Your claims are clearly erroneous.

Klingons had 1,500 retrofitted ships shortly before the end of the war.

[Master of Ossus]

First of all, the quote was that the fleet had CHECKED IN. That implies that all of its ships were involved in the engagement, and that it had only had about a hundred ships, initially during the engagement.

Second, are you seriously claiming that the Federation was strategically moronic for bringing along lots of worthless, cannon fodder ships when only the Defiant class ships were capable of fighting?

Third, we know that Centaurs are of comparable firepower to an Attack Ship, because one of those engaged Sisko's ship by itself. If it was significantly outgunned by the ship, the Centaur should have let Sisko and his crew go or called up reinforcements. It should not have engaged if it was deficient in firepower.

Fourth, the Klingons have 1,500 ships. The Federation has 10,000 ships. We'll be generous and say that the Romulans were only able to commit 250 ships to combat. This means that the Jem'Hadar outnumber the Federation and its allies by less than 50%, and their ships are clearly less powerful. Remember that the Klingon fleet, by itself, was able to hold off ALL THREE of the Dominion's major powers for a significant amount of time. This should have been impossible if, as you claim, the Jem'Hadar and their allies were about as powerful as the Klingons and Federation, ship for ship. Clearly something else is going on, here.

I'm going to bed. I'll check back and see if you've responded tomorrow.

[Shinova]

Back to the topic at hand:


How far can the SSD shoot in relation to Fed+allies ranges? I'll base my second post off of the answer to this question.

[Cpt_Frank]

The effective weapons ranges of SW capship weapons are IIRC several thousand km, roughly equal to those of ST weapons.
*waits for trekkies to come up with 300,000 km again*

[Shinova]

I would say Trek has warp-strafing in their favor. But from what Bean said, they'd have to do A LOT of warp strafing to take down a SSD.

[Cpt_Frank]

In a realistic scenarion no one can ever do so much warp strafing.
It'd also require the ECS to just sit there and do nothing at all.
Not to mention the limitations of warp strafing which include targeting and of course executing turns at warp, which is impossible.

[Shinova]

In a realistic scenarion no one can ever do so much warp strafing.
It'd also require the ECS to just sit there and do nothing at all.
Not to mention the limitations of warp strafing which include targeting and of course executing turns at warp, which is impossible.

SSD will be moving, but it can't do rapid-fire microjumps (Unless someone proves me wrong). Feds, on the other hand, can do warp strafing quite well, from what I know.

The amount of maneuvering required for the Picard maneuver comes to mind.


I know you SB people are out there! Help me out!

[Cpt_Frank]

I'm sure they could during TOS, yet they seem to have lost this capability by the time of TNG. Otherwise (as described in the tactics section of this excellent webpage) they could have used it to minimalize their losses.
So either they're not capable of doing it anymore, or they're just to stupid to do it. Also remember how long they would need, and how much ships they would need, the ECS isn't just gonna sit there and do nothing, it has a mission objective to fullfill like BDZ earth .
The effectiveness of the picard maneuver is questionable since the vessel must be destroyed with the first salvo. The ECS could just target the vessel once it enters realspace, and destroy it. With 1 shot.

[Cpt_Frank]

On second thought I'm not sure if they could during TOS but I believe to recall something.
Btw of course warp strafing, if they can, will not only be useless because of the lack of weapon effectiveness and the impossibillity for the feds to gather all their ships together at one place but it will also depend on if the ECS is willing to engage the fleet. With the speed of the hyperdrive, the ECS does not need to fight under conditions set by the enemy.

[Mr Bean]

The effective weapons ranges of SW capship weapons are IIRC several thousand km, roughly equal to those of ST weapons.

Acutal SW weaponry is on the midden Lightmintue Range, We've seen it hit stationary objects as much as roughly 10-20 Light-mintues away

10 Lightmintues is 179,900,000 KM IMO

However the fact that SW ships can move so fast and can easily Jam FTL sensors means that one must rely on visuals or old fasion C speed Sensors meaning that you COULD shoot from five Lightminutes away but then that means that they have over FIVE MINUTES to Dodge it.(Considering the Speed and Power of Shield recharging anything less than five HTL hits at a time is gonna be laughed off by the ISD)


Anyway due to the power of Warse jamming, Ship fights are Tradtionaly held in the Light second or shorter distance

(500-900,400) KM Range

[Cpt_Frank]

Thx for the info bean.
By the way,
[quote=Shinova]I know you SB people are out there! Help me out![/quote]
what was that?

[TOWNMNBS]

The effective weapons ranges of SW capship weapons are IIRC several thousand km, roughly equal to those of ST weapons.

Nice to see warsies are still living in a dream world

Acutal SW weaponry is on the midden Lightmintue Range, We've seen it hit stationary objects as much as roughly 10-20 Light-mintues away

<snip - pointless meandering>

>However the fact that SW ships can move so fast and can easily Jam FTL >sensors means that one must rely on visuals or old fasion C speed >Sensors meaning that you COULD shoot from five Lightminutes away >but then that means that they have over FIVE MINUTES to Dodge it.

Really is that the best they could do? Correct me if I am wrong but I have not seen one example of a SD jamming anything at all. The MF , a tramp freighter was able to out wit the sensors of one after all.


>Anyway due to the power of Warse jamming, Ship fights are Tradtionaly >held in the Light second or shorter distance

This is clearly not part of any visual record (i.e one of the films) that I have ever seen.

I think you should go back and watch the films and review some of the more prominate episodes of TNG, Voyger and DS9 before you jump to such conclusions Bean.

Thanks

TJ

[Cpt_Frank]

Is he the Unholy One or only a nondescript pretending to be him?

[Vympel]

Alright who broke the rule?

If this guy is ... TOWNMNBS ... then why would he call himself TOWNMNBS and not just ... you know ... his name.

If it is him, final solution him. He feeds off attention. Whenever you see one of his posts ... head on over to the page lampooning him and laugh your ass off.

[Cpt_Frank]

Well he could a trekkie who has chosen the name TOWNMNBS because he appreciates the original.... let's call him TJ.... so much.
That what he said in the post fits perfectly, too.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

FAKE!

[Mr Bean]

TOWNMNBS ahh tis been awhile

Of course notice just like the real one he dodges acutaly providing proof and mearly insults me as well as a Balshoy Dancer

Notice here

<snip - pointless meandering>

Gee the place where I previded quotes and Soruces? Why would TOWNMNBS snip that?

Really is that the best they could do? Correct me if I am wrong but I have not seen one example of a SD jamming anything at all. The MF , a tramp freighter was able to out wit the sensors of one after all.

The classic aurgment provided by the Classic Refutment, Never seen an SD jamming? How about the fact they could not decet the Fleet in ROTJ and the status of the DS shield in the same movie
Lando even says they are jamming him
Novelisation of ANH lists the fact the DS was throwing out Jamming

And that tramp freighter pulled close to 9000 G of Vertical Decceleration and clamped onto the Hull of the ISD expoliting a blind spot TOWNMNBS that few know about,
Furthermore if the *Tramp Freighters can pull 9000 Gs so easily I hestate to think what the Military Fighters can do

This is clearly not part of any visual record (i.e one of the films) that I have ever seen.

Clearly you never watched ROTJ, Or prehaps you are suffering from an aliment such as blindness and you never in bother to incudled EU

I think you should go back and watch the films and review some of the more prominate episodes of TNG, Voyger and DS9 before you jump to such conclusions Bean.

I think you should have a Frontal Lomboity to increase your IQ a few Points Tom
Escpilly when I'm the only one bother to provided evidance here

[Mr Bean]

Hmm so far our TOWNBUS has posted from Louisiana State University Library public computers and possible a single Dorm one as I don't know LSU IP assigment schem as they are non-typical but two of the three IPs I can identify as coming from thier Public Computers

PC's 1, 3 and 35 repsectly in thier network

[TOWNMNBS]

9000g's or not may speak to the drive system of the MF but it says NOTHING about the sensors at all. Thnaks for playing.


Lando said that the DSII was jamming them to prevent them from seeing the sheild not the ISDs. Thus we are still left with no actual evidence of a Stardestroyer Jamming anything.

Besides even if they could jam wars ships, they would have ZERO effect on the subspace based FTL sensors that Federation ships use. So we are left with a situation in which wars ships can jam each other (maybe) but are left with no possiable way to effect Trek ships.

As for snipping your sources: I remove what is pointless to the argument. If you "sources" had been relivant to anything thaen I would have let them stand.

Thanks in advance

TJ