How to defeat an ISD with Starfleet Resources

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Perhaps they weren't common by the time of the Thrawn campaign.

[Wild Karrde]

What proof is there that Trek cloaks will go undetected to the ISD?

Even when they're cloaked they stil send/receive visuals/audio, scan things outside of the cloak, give off waste heat from the ship, and particles from their engines when underway. What's to stop the ISD from picking up these things with their normal sensor suite?

[Robert Walper]

What proof is there that Trek cloaks will go undetected to the ISD?

I suppose you have evidence or proof that they could detect them with their standard sensor capabilities?

Even when they're cloaked they stil send/receive visuals/audio, scan things outside of the cloak, give off waste heat from the ship, and particles from their engines when underway. What's to stop the ISD from picking up these things with their normal sensor suite?

Perhaps you can submit evidence that ISDs would possess the capability to detect cloaked vessels by these "obvious" traits? Their sensors cannot detect a feightor clinging to their own hull, nor can other nearby ISDs detect it either. In contrast, Federation sensors can detect a small organism eating at a ship's own hull, and even another ship's hull.

[Patrick Degan]

Perhaps you can submit evidence that ISDs would possess the capability to detect cloaked vessels by these "obvious" traits? Their sensors cannot detect a feightor clinging to their own hull, nor can other nearby ISDs detect it either. In contrast, Federation sensors can detect a small organism eating at a ship's own hull, and even another ship's hull.

Because their sensors were trained outward. Not looking in a direction you don't anticipate finding anything in is not a lack of capability on the part of the sensors.

[Rogue 9]

Karrde: I'm sure a cloaked Star Destroyer gives off plenty of exhaust emissions from those big ass engine cones, yet three of them went cloaked for a week or more (only read that book once) near Bothawui and were never picked up until something flew inside the cloak. Therefore, it seems that Star Wars tech isn't so good at picking up extraneous engine exhaust and such. Granted, no one at Bothawui was actively looking, but there's no real reason for the Star Destroyer to be doing intensive scans of a seemingly empty chunk of space that in fact contains a cloaked ship.

[Sarevok]

Perhaps you can submit evidence that ISDs would possess the capability to detect cloaked vessels by these "obvious" traits? Their sensors cannot detect a feightor clinging to their own hull, nor can other nearby ISDs detect it either. In contrast, Federation sensors can detect a small organism eating at a ship's own hull, and even another ship's hull

The falcon was hiding in the ISDs blind spot so it could not be detected. Regarding cloaked vessels it is unlikely they could be detected by sensor emissions, waste heat, warp emissions etc. Star Destroyers would have to CGT arrays to have any luck of detecting a cloaked ship

[Alyeska]

SW cloaks are not perfect. Its been stated that ships underway within the SW cloak can be detected by drive emissions. This is why the ISDs in the HOT Duology were riding along with momentum rather then running their engines. The other way to detect SW cloaks is through use of gravity sensors which the CGT appears to be.

ST cloaks have similar drawbacks. Advanced enough sensors can detect emissions from a cloaked ship. Advanced enough cloaks limit emissions. Furthermore all cloaks can be penetrated by either tachyon grids or gravity sensors (Troi admited to a Romulan insurgent that the Federation side of the neutral zone in a specific area was lined with gravitic sensors to detect cloaked ships).

It would appear that SW and ST cloaks run under similar limitations as to detection. Stationary is stealthier than movement. The prime advantage to the ST cloaks is they are not doubleblind.

If the Starfleet commander hid a stationary cloaked fleet and created an ambush that only had specific ways in and out while keeping his cloaked fleet away from that point, he could in theory go undetected by Imperial forces.

BTW, there are some tactics people have yet to consider. Ever think of kidnapping certain Imperial personel and using them as bait of some sort? You nab someone important enough, you could do some real damage. Those Imperial ships are bound to want to enjoy some of the Federation planets. Risa maybe...

[Connor MacLeod]

Karrde: I'm sure a cloaked Star Destroyer gives off plenty of exhaust emissions from those big ass engine cones, yet three of them went cloaked for a week or more (only read that book once) near Bothawui and were never picked up until something flew inside the cloak.

1.) I'd like to see your proof that the engine exhaust would be detected

2.) As I recall they didn't use engines (they anchored themselves to a comet or something passing by the system.). And even if they did, their exhaust would be pointed AWAY from the planet, since they are moving in towards it. How are they supposed to detect something moving in a direction opposite to their own?

Therefore, it seems that Star Wars tech isn't so good at picking up extraneous engine exhaust and such.

Unproven assumption. Moreover, it ignores the magnitude of the exhaust emissions: the emissions of a TIE fighter are going to be different than the exhaust emissions of a Star Destroyer.

[Rogue 9]

Its the Imperials. They'd take the more attractive members of the populous captive and BDZ the planet afterwards if it came to that.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Dude, you're doing it again...

[Connor MacLeod]

SW cloaks are not perfect. Its been stated that ships underway within the SW cloak can be detected by drive emissions. This is why the ISDs in the HOT Duology were riding along with momentum rather then running their engines. The other way to detect SW cloaks is through use of gravity sensors which the CGT appears to be.

I recall no instances indicating that cloaks can be detected by drive emissions. Can you provide a more specific reference?

It would appear that SW and ST cloaks run under similar limitations as to detection. Stationary is stealthier than movement. The prime advantage to the ST cloaks is they are not doubleblind.

Only cerrtain kinds of cloaks aren't double-blind. Maul's cloak wasn't, although his kind were rare. I don't recall the one's in "Rebel Assault 2" being double blind either (As I recall, the ships could remain invisible and accurately fire on other targets.)

[Alyeska]

1.) I'd like to see your proof that the engine exhaust would be detected

SW cloaks do not prevent physical objects from penetrating the cloak. Drive emissions from those big honking engines are going to be physical. While the SW ship moves along in the cloak it will leave behind a nice trail that doesn't stay in the cloak. The trail will disapate over time, but if caught while moving it should be easy enough to spot. We already know Trek sensors can detect a fair degree of accuracy in small areas so far as to tell how many particles are in regions of space.

2.) As I recall they didn't use engines (they anchored themselves to a comet or something passing by the system.). And even if they did, their exhaust would be pointed AWAY from the planet, since they are moving in towards it. How are they supposed to detect something moving in a direction opposite to their own?

They used engines intialy but were not noticed. The problem with using engines while cloaked comes about only after prolonged use or in combat situations. This wasn't an imediate problem for these ISDs and they eventualy shifted to momentum and strapping to the asteroid to avoid future risks of detection.

[Ghost Rider]

While kidnapping would be a good choice....the Imperials aren't hindered by any thought of not going over one of your worlds they haven't taken and going "Return or we scorch a city for each hour he's not in our possession."

[Rogue 9]

Dude, you're doing it again...

Dude, its true. The Imperials tend to be a nasty bunch, and you know it. Unless you intend to claim that they can't actually do a BDZ?

[Alyeska]

I recall no instances indicating that cloaks can be detected by drive emissions. Can you provide a more specific reference?

I just finished reading the Thrawn Trilogy and I swear Thrawn made a comment about the possibility of being detected while moving. Anyway the observations of the SW cloak indicate that ships would still be detectable while moving, but only if someone is actively searching.

Only cerrtain kinds of cloaks aren't double-blind. Maul's cloak wasn't, although his kind were rare. I don't recall the one's in "Rebel Assault 2" being double blind either (As I recall, the ships could remain invisible and accurately fire on other targets.)

Hmm, I didn't know that. Although it appears those cloaks are lost tech or can only be applied small scale.

[Connor MacLeod]

Perhaps you can submit evidence that ISDs would possess the capability to detect cloaked vessels by these "obvious" traits? Their sensors cannot detect a feightor clinging to their own hull, nor can other nearby ISDs detect it either. In contrast, Federation sensors can detect a small organism eating at a ship's own hull, and even another ship's hull.

Ah, the usual Trekkie excuse for SW ships having bad sensors. Why not also try claiming that they have lousy sensors because they could only tell that the Imperial Probe droid was "metal"?

1.) Engine emissions can create a blind spot (not surprising, considering the levels of energy required to generate them.)

2.) The Falcon's systems were shut down, so it was not giving off any emissions that could be detected. Moreover, proximity to the Star Destroyer's hull is going to further complicate things with its own emissions (especially close to the engines.)

3.) Why the hell would they think about looking there? You have to have a reason to look somwhere, you know.

Inability to locate the Falcon is not neccesarily due to sensor limitations, it may simply have been an error on Needa's part (assuming that there is a reason he should have thought to have looked.)

[Alyeska]

While kidnapping would be a good choice....the Imperials aren't hindered by any thought of not going over one of your worlds they haven't taken and going "Return or we scorch a city for each hour he's not in our possession."

That isn't part of the Starfleet Admiral's concern. Capturing an ISD is his only concern. Why else would he be willing to sacrafice his own troops and even possibly WMD former Federation planets?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Dude, you're doing it again...

Dude, its true. The Imperials tend to be a nasty bunch, and you know it. Unless you intend to claim that they can't actually do a BDZ?

Refering to the "take all the attractive people" crap,

[Chris OFarrell]

There is no instance of a cloaked SW ship being detected by its engine emmisions, but there are quite a few quotes saying that it is very possible. Ackbar in 'Dark Force Rising' makes the comments when they are talking about the newly discovered cloaking device, that if a ship was under way, it could be tracked simply by tracking its drive emmisions. Bel'Ilbs makes the same comment in The Last Command when THrawn launched the asteriods. He isntantly knew Thrawn was launching a cloaked ship and ordered all ships to focus their sensors along the tractor beams parth for drive emmisions. Of course Asteriods don't have drive emmisions, but he did clearly guess at what it was and was confident about finding it.

Also the Imperial Sourcebook makes mention of it as well.

[Ghost Rider]

While kidnapping would be a good choice....the Imperials aren't hindered by any thought of not going over one of your worlds they haven't taken and going "Return or we scorch a city for each hour he's not in our possession."

That isn't part of the Starfleet Admiral's concern. Capturing an ISD is his only concern. Why else would he be willing to sacrafice his own troops and even possibly WMD former Federation planets?

While very true...literally it would hurt morale of his troops, given that he may never get his prize while the Imps go world to world.

The best thing may actually try to stage a raid on the thing if you can find one in drydock...bloody and hellish price to pay.

[Rogue 9]

Dude, you're doing it again...

Dude, its true. The Imperials tend to be a nasty bunch, and you know it. Unless you intend to claim that they can't actually do a BDZ?

Refering to the "take all the attractive people" crap,

Hey hey hey, I'm not the one who brought up Risa.

Those Imperial ships are bound to want to enjoy some of the Federation planets. Risa maybe...

I meant to say that the Imperials, if they had such motivation that conflicted with orders to BDZ the planet, could very well take that solution. Hey, this is SD.net.

[Connor MacLeod]

I just finished reading the Thrawn Trilogy and I swear Thrawn made a comment about the possibility of being detected while moving.

First, Second, or Third book?

Anyway the observations of the SW cloak indicate that ships would still be detectable while moving, but only if someone is actively searching.

Not neccesarily. It depends on whether or not if the emissions actually extend past the cloaking shield (if it passes outside the shield, you should be able to detect it.) or not, and the direction (are you going to detect the engine emissions of a ship moving straight at you? And the intensity of the emissions (again, the TIE fighter vs Star Destroyer example.)

And even if this is a problem, you simply run the engines at a lower level or extend the cloaking shield.

Hmm, I didn't know that. Although it appears those cloaks are lost tech or can only be applied small scale.

(Full) Cloaking is rare technology in SW in general, if you recall. For the most part, its only useful really for the visual masking aspects (although the "emission masking" can be distinct as well, as evidenced by the cloaked Freighter Thrawn used at Sluis Van.)

[Chris OFarrell]

Only cerrtain kinds of cloaks aren't double-blind. Maul's cloak wasn't, although his kind were rare. I don't recall the one's in "Rebel Assault 2" being double blind either (As I recall, the ships could remain invisible and accurately fire on other targets.)

Is Rebel assault II even canon? I mean according to that game, Ru Merlin flew at the Battle of Yavin, when we know she did not, Vader was running around with the Terror and his Phantom Project when in SOTE and ESB he was most definatly doing other things and the Tie Phantom technology suddenly vanished...

At any rate, the Phantoms cloak was not perfect. Even when cloaked, the ships were visable on and off sensors to a degree, you could even see a fain blue molting as they drew closer.

[Alyeska]

Any ship actively searching would still spot the increase in particles in space. Most everything strives for equilibrium and those particles will escape the cloaking shield. As the ship moves, the particles espacing will create a detectable pattern.

[Chris OFarrell]

Not neccesarily. It depends on whether or not if the emissions actually extend past the cloaking shield (if it passes outside the shield, you should be able to detect it.) or not, and the direction (are you going to detect the engine emissions of a ship moving straight at you? And the intensity of the emissions (again, the TIE fighter vs Star Destroyer example.)

Uh Conner, unless I'm mistaken, an ISD's main thrusters throw superheated ions out at velocities getting to respectable fractions of C, for them to have the acceleration they do. They would clear the cloaking field in a fraction of a second under any kind of real thrust. The cloaking field only extends a short distance from the ship. If you expelled them at a velocity where they would cool and disperse before exiting, then your sure as hell not going to be getting any real thrust from them and you aint moving...