Wolf 359 Fleet?

[Master of Ossus]

Oh, really?

That would've been right, but I changed my mind, Mr. Anonymous...
cough, Ossus.

You said, "Shut the fuck up, Sean." Sorry, bro, but things people
wouldn't say to my face are things I won't stand for on the internet,
either. That was a childish attempt to derail this argument.
Maybe it works with your typical "Trekkie," but it does not work with
me.

That is unacceptable, and if you're going to call me a moron
and pull moves like that, well...why don't we just cut through
the bullshit, here?

Your entire premise of a small Romulan fleet is based on
an interpretation of ONE piece of dialogue. That is the point
of this thread, is it not? You have ignored my efforts to demonstrate
that such could NOT have been what Hansen meant, as messy
as those posts were (and for that, I apologize; I'll gladly repost them
in readable format if one of the moderators would like to delete
the originals shortly thereafter). Why?

Clearly the words "bullshit" and the statements about ignoring your points (that I just spent several posts disecting)

No, you didn't. You totally ignored the two posts that were formatted
badly (for which I even apologized). Shortly thereafter, you pop
up with the "shut the fuck up."

Speaking to anyone else save this angry young kid I'm
playing with here: did Ossus not blow off my two-part,
admittedly badly formatted, rebuttal post? Ding ding!
Yes. It was condensed into something about nanites;
i.e., MORE dialogue interpretation.

As for bullshit...oh, well. I say bullshit a lot. Big fucking deal.
If you took THAT personally, we've got serious problems in
greymatterville.

do not qualify as insults. We may as well add lying to the list of things you have done on this thread, shall we?

Yeah. After all, this thread is about the crimes of Sean, how he's
an unrepentant, evil Rabid Trekkie (TM), a moronic Straw Man
construction worker, and whatever else.

Whenever you'd like to focus on the ISSUE at hand and stop
with this stupid ad hominemizing...bah. Maybe I'll take it up,
but I doubt you'll listen to anything I have to say anyhow. You've
got a RAGING hard on for me and I can't figure out why.

Must be because I posted something in your Dark Star bashing
thread, though I don't even KNOW the fucking guy. (shrugs)

The point of me telling you to shut up was because I am quite frankly annoyed at the way you butchered my statements during your posts and insisting upon countless repetitions of more or less irrelevent material. Further, looking back at the thread it is quite obvious that you were the one to use the first ad hominem attack and begin this flame war by ordering me to "cut the bullshit." You then come back and make repeated ad hominem attacks while refusing to allow me to respond in kind (albeit escalating the conflict).

I really don't care that you defended DarkStar (actually, I don't even remember the thread. Which one was it?) I am frustrated because you don't appear to be consistent about what is and is not allowed in a thread. I see flaming as either a yes or a no, without considerable degrees of "gray" in between. I think of threads as either threads where one is allowed to flame, or when one is not allowed to flame, but I don't see how you can open the door only part way to flaming and then close it, or whatnot, as you appear to be doing from my perspective. In all honesty, this is probably just because of a difference of opinion, but I would like to know what you consider acceptable in terms of a debate.

In any case, I am at the very least perplexed. You insist that I focus on the issue at hand and stop "ad hominizing" but you do so in a post like this one? That appears to be inconsistent, and I really DON'T see how this is possible in a reasonable manner. You further accuse me of trying to high-jack my own thread! What is this? How is this possible? Where are you coming from? What is acceptable, from your POV?

[seanrobertson]

Demonstrate that Klingons served in any of those actions, which may have taken place too late for the Borg drones assimilated to travel back to the Delta Quadrant and then crash for five years before VOY picked them up.

Burden of Proof fallacy. You claim they were assimilated at
the Wolf system. Please offer proof of that.

Hmmm.... Maybe because I POSTED THAT BEFORE YOU POSTED YOUR SITE! Again, I implore you to read the thread before you make posts.

Damn it, man, for once I DID!

I offered the site "Delta Blues" in those messages I posted yesterday
(labelled parts one and two).

I did. I assumed that such engagements were referring to one of two things: Smaller engagements revolving around Wolf 359 (as I don't recall any Borg incursions into Klingon space, off the top of my head), and ones in which the Cardassians were engaged.

No, you're presenting it as proof that Romulans and Klingons
were assimilated at Wolf. Non sequitur.

"I also discovered that Romulans WERE involved in the [Wolf 359]
batte. According to:"

Of course I knew that. I don't understand why you insist that the Klingons did not fight in Wolf 359, though you are potentially correct in that the Romulans did not make it to Admiral Hansen's Party.

To toot my own horn, I know I am; plus, the Klingons didn't
make it, either. I understand why Alyeska and yourself
are confused about that, which is why I cited all of the blurbs
about Klingon Borg and Wolf 359 from *all* of VGR. But I am
frustrated at this point given the tone of the "debate."

Conceeded, I was unable to get a transcript of the episode, as I noted in my post (which you apparently neglected reading).

No, I saw that, but I was mystified as to why you ignored Delta
Blues when I'd pointed it out yesterday.

Not reading my posts, are ya? Blasphemy! LOL.

Yes, that is a joke.

Evidently not. They were memories from people assimilted by the Borg. The presence of photon torpedoes actually demonstrates that Federation ships were at the battle (which is pretty unusual, given your claims that they could not be seen during the shots, and then your statement that they were Federation-type torpedoes [as opposed to Klingon or Romulan torpedoes]).

You're kidding, right? They were just memories. No one ever said
they were memories from the moment of assimilation (unless,
of course, Grandpa was a Borg standing in the green meadow).

Why would the Federation be firing photorps at a Klingon ship that's
trying to help them out? Granted, Federation photorp targetting can
be rather bad, but striking a D7 with upwards of 3-5 torpedoes...that
goes beyond bad targetting!

What about it?

How about this:

We get back to the original point. That had something to do
with the Romulans having a really "small fleet," right? Presumably,
it was so small that it couldn't blow through a fleet of 40 starships.

My gripe *throughout this whole friggin thread!* was that assuming
only 40 ships stood between them and Earth is a hasty generalization.
This is based on concrete distances between the Neutral Zone and
the inner Federation perimeter.

My gripe notwithstanding...

I also pegged my own "Rabid Trekkie" estimate of the Romulan fleet's
size during TNG, purely speculative that it was. I even explained
why it was irrational to expect very large nos. for the larger DS9-era
fleets of all three Allied powers.

I want a debate without having my name dragged through the mud,
or being held to some OOC statement from other threads. Maybe
I'm an evil bastard and I should burn in Biblical hell, but I'd prefer
to not dwell on such when talking about works of fiction.

[Master of Ossus]

I'm sorry, Sean, I really didn't want this to turn into a flame war when I said that. I'd be happy to completely drop that line of speaking. If you don't mind, I would be interested to hear your estimates on how large the respective fleets are of the "Big Three" in ST (Federation, Romulans, Klingons), and tell me how many of those ships, you believe, are combat ships (as opposed to freighters, and the like).

[seanrobertson]

Ossus,

That's totally cool. I don't know why we always wind up butting heads
so vigorously...

But first, I gotta take a break. My apologies for getting wild.

[Master of Ossus]

Ossus,

That's totally cool. I don't know why we always wind up butting heads
so vigorously...

But first, I gotta take a break. My apologies for getting wild.

Of course.

[seanrobertson]

If you don't mind, I would be interested to hear your estimates on how large the respective fleets are of the "Big Three" in ST (Federation, Romulans, Klingons), and tell me how many of those ships, you believe, are combat ships (as opposed to freighters, and the like).

I don't know how I could ever get irrate with someone who is
a fan of Harper Lee...gah!

I also don't know how satisfactory this answer might be, but
I can tell you what I don't think is likely, at least first off...

That is, you might've expected that, from my earlier objections,
I was going to get around to contending that the Romulan
fleet is many thousands of ships. I've heard that, too.

I think some Trekkies have the idea that, because the Dominion
Alliance had some 30,000 warships, the good Allies must've
been somehow able to match that figure to "win."

I strongly disagree with that line of reasoning. First, I
think the 30k no. is actually valid. Gen. Martok said he'd
have 1,500 Klingon warships on the front lines the following
day, IIRC, in "Tacking Into the Wind." A couple of times
he was told words to the effect that, "You'll be outnumbered
20 to 1." Thus, I think the 30k figure is meant to represent
warships, as well...I can't see the Dominion throwing Cardassian
freighters at even the smallest Bird of Prey (we saw about how
well that panned out in "Return to Grace"!).

But...

We know that ship count consists of lots of Breen warships,
Jem'Hadar bugs, and Cardassian "fighters." (If the DS9 TM
is any indication, their annual Hideki production is five
times higher than the no. of capships they produce.)

IMO, Breen ships, especially without their tricks, are flying
junk. Defiant was able to rip through two of them with
as many volleys...ugh. Not good.

Jem'Hadar and Cardassian attack ships also suck. A single
Bird of Prey could whip 2 or 3 of the former in "Sons and Daughters."
And in Kor's last stand, his Bird stood up to 10 bugs for a short
period.

Any fleet estimate for the Allies would have to take this sort
of disparity into account. The kill ratio for even the "weakest"
ships, like BoPs, is very, very high. It'd have to be higher yet
for the destroyers, light cruisers, on up to battleships (GCS,
Warbirds, etc.). The alliance could potentially match the Dominion
Alliance with many times less ships...how many, though, I
wouldn't hazard a guess. 5-6x maybe? That might be pushing
it.

That's wartime production, which is probably a good bit higher
than standard for all three Allies (especially the Federation).

The only way I can think to look at peacetime production would
be to compare the Romulan and Klingon fleets to the Federation's.
Shelby said "the fleet would be back up in less than a year."
I actually think Michael is [perhaps intentionally] being generous
in saying Starfleet could therefore *maybe* build 40 ships in a year.
They really should be able to, but if Shelby had taken into account
some of the crap fielded at the Wolf system (Oberth, some
design rejects from TMP and ST III), this is really pretty
horrible.

If we ignored what restoring the loss of 40 ships might entail--bringing
ships out of mothballs, like those floating around at Qualor II
in "Unification" (more reject designs)--I think it'd be generous
to guess that the Romulans could build half that no. annually
in Warbirds. Even with all that empty space, the things are still
really big; and, as you noted, they *are* superior to GCSs in combat,
at least in TNG.

The Warbird apparently doesn't date back all that far...the E-C
was said to face off with "three Warbirds" at Narendra III, but
that's meaningless. 3 Warbirds of the D'Deridex power
would've blown E-C out of the sky with one salvo; besides, Romulans
appear to call all of their big ships "Warbirds."

I'll *guess* Warbirds date to around 2350. I feel that is too early,
but I suppose that's arguable...they're only introducing a replacement
class in Nemesis some 25+ years later which, by Klingon and
Starfleet standards, is a very long time (GCSs fielded in no. by
2364 vs. SCS coming along less than 10 years later).

Anyway, 20 ships times 14 years to reach the first season of TNG =
280 Warbirds in 2364. The Romulans evidently spend a huge amount
of their GNP on military expenditures, though (pretty terrible
living conditions on Romulus, for one, the "crown jewel" of
their Empire). So I imagine it's possible that simply halving the
40 ship/year estimate might be a bit rough on them, perhaps especially
so since building one class of warship should be easier than building
lots of different ones (like the Federation does).

But I'd have to say that early in TNG, 500 Warbirds seems like
the limit of what I could reasonably see. By the end of TNG,
perhaps 650? That assumes they were building the things
at full capacity each year, which is oversimplified.

By the time of the Dominion War, 25 years after initial production of Warbirds started, they might have
twice that number, around 800-1,000. I can't see going any
higher than that, though, because we're back to the 40 ships/yr.
thing again.

Gotta run,

[seanrobertson]

I mention Harper Lee because I regard _To Kill_ as
one of the true greats in American literature. My ex
truly loved the book and film, teaching the former as
her first assignment as a student teacher. Anything
to do with her is still tender to me. I'm a big sap
at heart.

Anyway...

I figure the Federation fleet, circa TNG, could not have been
over 4,000 *combat capable* starships. If it was, the loss
of only one percent of those forces (which included a lot
of junk ships as I said) would be shrugged off as totally
insignificant.

The only thing that gives me pause in figuring how large
a fleet the Feds might field is the fact that they use such
old designs, some 80 years old or more, and apparently
still build a few of the old designs (like Excelsiors,
but I could be wrong...I only have a vague recollection
of an ECS with a high registry no.).

However, we also know from ST III that the refit E-nil was
about to be retired. Right or not, an admiral remarked,
"Jim, Enterprise is 20 years old!" (Or maybe it was
25?)

Even if the ship was 40 years old, that should indicate
a firm standard operational lifetime for most starships.
The Excelsiors we see might be an exception to this
rule partly because their warp drives were a big leap forward
in the 2280s; therefore, they might still be useful even in
100 years. Mirandas are also exceptional in that they
can apparently be made into about a half-dozen subclasses
with fairly basic modifications.

So, basically, we've got 40 ships annually times 40 years,
or a fleet of 1,600 ships that are still current enough to bother
using. There are the aforementioned exceptional cases (and
Oberths, a highly modular design, though I'd hardly
call it useful in combat...), which can be useful for over 40 years.
They also appear to make up the bulk of Starfleet in most
fleet movements.

Given that, I could see Starfleet at perhaps over 2,000 ships peacetime.
In the Dominion War, they were evidently able to pull enough
ships out of mothballs and/or cobble together enough kitbashes
to boost that significantly...perhaps to 3,000 or slightly more.
I still don't really see 4,000 ships. At that strength, the
Federation and Klingons should've been able to totally cream
the Dominion early in the war (which only had a starting force
of a few hundred ships and no more than 5-6 months to build
new ones).

If you wanted to look at starships that are really worth their
salt--light cruisers or better--I think it's easy to chop that figure
in half, to 1,500 or so.

I've always seen the Klingons as the actual top dog of
the big three. Their industrial base is probably lesser than
the Federation's, but we know that in alternate timelines,
they'd whipped the Federation or Romulans within decades.
That would indicate a marginally superior fleet.

Since so many of their ships are small Birds (as opposed to
the dozen or so big battlecruiser types we saw in TNG), I
could see the Klingons at 4,000 ships.

So we've got 1k+3k+4k, or 8,000 ships among the Allies.
The Dominion's puffed-up 30,000 could conceivably lose to
this...with the Cardassians switching sides, that might be
workable. It'd only require that, in a linear comparison,
an Allied ship was able to sustain a 3-4 to 1 kill ratio against
the avg. Dominion ship. We know that's not too wild
("Defiant," "Sons and Daughters," everything else).

[Isolder74]

Sean you are only helping further the point that The Feds didn't have all that large of a fleet as most fanboys claim.

[seanrobertson]

Sean you are only helping further the point that The Feds didn't have all that large of a fleet as most fanboys claim.

That's okay. It's good, in fact, since I'm only interested in
the truth.

I didn't object to Ossus' original contention because I thought
he was off in claiming the hard-core Trekkies were wrong about
many thousands of Warbirds. I never said I thought that was
a reasonable guess...you're only inferring that from my objection.

What I was concerned with was the idea that the Romulans' only
deterrant to invasion was a paltry 40 ships or so (like those that
showed up in time to be whipped at the Wolf system). I think
that's only part of the picture, and it fails to take into account:
A, the mutual defense pact between the Klingons and Federation;
and B, the distance from much of the Neutral Zone to Sector 001.

"A" is important because any large-scale incursion by the
Romulans (meaning, IMO, more than 100 Warbirds) would require
that they pull ships from standard patrol/defense duties, leaving
them vulnerable to attack from the Klingon Empire if not Starfleet
as well (though Starfleet's MO isn't really to make reprisal attacks).
Thus, a quick attack on Earth wouldn't necessarily be that worthwhile
for the Romulans...it *would* have the benefit of harming Federation
infrastructure significantly, though I'm not entirely sure that it'd
result in cutting the head off of the organization's military so to speak.

"B" is important because the Romulans would generally have to
travel a fair distance to reach Earth; and with each additional light
year, they're more likely to face more opposition than, say,
the single cube did at Wolf 359.

I was never out to disagree with Ossus' idea of the fleet's respective
sizes (or what they are not); unfortunately, I should have been more
clear about that, since it was the ultimate upshoot of the thread.
I thought my nitpicks were sufficiently qualified, but given the
extreme length of some of my posts I'm not surprised my words
could be taken as some kind of backward support to a "10,000 Warbird fleet" or somesuch.

Again, Iso, that was NOT my goal. It couldn't be since I don't believe
that's at all right. Indeed, Ossus had a good point in that the Romulan
fleet *couldn't* be that large for the reasons stated. I didn't disagree
with that idea, just some of the premises.

I frequently take issue with positions that I feel are overstating
the case...I'm not sure where my attack on the "no lasers" argument
is--one of the Sticky topics I'm pretty sure, perhaps "SW Mid Range"?--
but I have pointed out what I think is conclusive proof in TNG that
nav deflectors are far from immune to laser beams. There is
circumstantial evidence to indicate as much ("Loud as a Whisper"?)
but to toot my own horn, I think I've IDed a very clear-cut case
that a sufficiently powerful laser will blow right through "nav deflectors."
To my knowledge that instance has never been used in the way
I argued.

Check that out if you can find it...if I was ever interested in entertaining
fanboys' fantasies, I wouldn't have pointed that out

[seanrobertson]

Whoops, damn:

My attack on the "no laser" argument--which, incidentally, I
haven't heard any Trekkie use in ages --is on page
six of "Current SW Low-End Calculations," the next to last
post. I just said it might be in "Mid-Range," which it
definitely isn't...if you're interested, please do NOT look
for my post in that thread!

I might as well talk about it now that I've brought it up.
Basically, all it addresses is the fact that, when Worf
and Data had taken Locutus from the cube in "BoBW,"
the cube fires a cutting beam at W&D's shuttle. The
shuttle is instantly destroyed.

But...oops. Shuttles have nav deflectors, too. How come
the "type of laser beam" the Borg use to carve up ships
wasn't redirected into oblivion? You know the answer.

This also demonstrates that a shuttle's shields cannot
handle a roughly low terawatt-ranged laser (just a guess,
based on the way it was cutting through the E-D at various
times). A single TIE should be able to shred such a shuttle.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Whoops, damn:

My attack on the "no laser" argument--which, incidentally, I
haven't heard any Trekkie use in ages --is on page
six of "Current SW Low-End Calculations," the next to last
post. I just said it might be in "Mid-Range," which it
definitely isn't...if you're interested, please do NOT look
for my post in that thread!

I might as well talk about it now that I've brought it up.
Basically, all it addresses is the fact that, when Worf
and Data had taken Locutus from the cube in "BoBW,"
the cube fires a cutting beam at W&D's shuttle. The
shuttle is instantly destroyed.

But...oops. Shuttles have nav deflectors, too. How come
the "type of laser beam" the Borg use to carve up ships
wasn't redirected into oblivion? You know the answer.

This also demonstrates that a shuttle's shields cannot
handle a roughly low terawatt-ranged laser (just a guess,
based on the way it was cutting through the E-D at various
times). A single TIE should be able to shred such a shuttle.

Don't nav deflectors only face forward?

[Vympel]

The Borg cutting laser also cut up the Enterprise-D herself- cutting several decks worth out of the main saucer section in Q Who.

[Moonshadow]

"Oberth"

geez. i have this problem with Trekkies even. Am i the only one who actually likes the Oberth Class? Also , if they are that weak, then why was Kirk worried about the Grissom firing on his ship on the way to Genesis( remember, he didn't know she was shot down and Said something like "whats Grissom up to. Will she join us or fire on us?") That would indicate the Oberth has some armament. I'm not saying it was a lean mean Warship like the Reliant, but still i think they are better armed than people think.

[greenmm]

"Oberth"

geez. i have this problem with Trekkies even. Am i the only one who actually likes the Oberth Class? Also , if they are that weak, then why was Kirk worried about the Grissom firing on his ship on the way to Genesis( remember, he didn't know she was shot down and Said something like "whats Grissom up to. Will she join us or fire on us?") That would indicate the Oberth has some armament. I'm not saying it was a lean mean Warship like the Reliant, but still i think they are better armed than people think.

Undoubtedly it was armed. Perhaps not to the level of the E-nil, but it was probably comparable somewhat to the Klingon BoP.. which only hurt the E-nil because it caught it with shields down and a handful of people running it on automatics.

Something to consider: what if the "40 ships" referred to Starfleet's heaviest ships, comparable in firepower to the E-D? The TOS era had 12 Connie-class cruisers, but I'm sure that those were far from being the only ships available to Starfleet... but they may have been Starfleet's most powerful ships.

BoBW may have had an overconfident Starfleet only sending its 40 most powerful ships (save the E-D) to intercept, with a call to the Klingons and a considered call to the Romulans only as a backup measure. IIRC, the admiral leading the Wolf 359 fleet was extremely confident about Starfleet's ability to handle 1 Borg cube, despite their having assimilated Picard.

In contrast, FC not only saw the Borg vessel get closer to Earth than previously (can't remember, but IIRC the Borg didn't make it all the way to Earth in BoBW, did they?), but saw a less confident Starfleet pulling out all the stops to take out said cube.

[Vertigo1]

The cube was in orbit of earth when it was taken out.

[seanrobertson]

The Borg cutting laser also cut up the Enterprise-D herself- cutting several decks worth out of the main saucer section in Q Who.

Quite true. However, at that point, the E-D's shields had been dropped.
(Presumably, the navigation deflectors were down, too.)

Nav deflectors really puzzle me. DO they only face forward? (That's
a good thought...I hadn't considered that.) And why in the name
of God would they stop LASERS of all things--even lasers of
terribly limited power? That makes no sense given the little we've
heard about what the deflectors are supposed to do.

Furthermore, I dunno if it's substantiated in canon or not, but
the TMs describe how nav deflectors extend many kilometers
around a starship. Err...okay, then: how come in combat,
we don't see enemy starships being literally FORCED back by
the NDs as they close to within a kilometer or so? Nav deflectors
definitely have never done anything remotely close to this.

Also, WRT nav deflectors facing fwd., and to sorta answer my/our
question myself, that would seem to make the most sense, thus
killing my "ah-ha!" observation about the shuttle in "BoBW."
I mean, after all, the nav deflector is generated from that big
honking deflector dish on starships, right? They always face
forward, and most of the time they're used for something other
than nav deflectors, they fire fwd. beams--perhaps even when
it'd be advantageous to not be facing the target.

However...

Starships can go to warp backwards, too ("The Nth Degree," a no.
of shows for which I can't remember the titles...help? ). That'd
require that the nav deflectors offer all-around coverage, as nonsensical
as that seems to me (yet another stupid facet of their function).
Additionally, all-around coverage could be important if the nav
deflectors actually served any usefulness in stopping something
like a laser beam; i.e., your enemy could simply take up a position
in your six and blaze away, not having to deal with dedicated
shields AND NDs at the same time. Seems sorta unlikely, even
given the stupidity of Starfleet engineers.

Also, WRT the Oberth...

I've always liked the design, too. However, I don't think we
need claim that they're armed to a significant degree. I'm
sure they have a phaser bank or few, but Kirk's line about,
"...will she fire on us?" could be rationalized as him being concerned
about having to engage in defensive maneuvers against Grissom
...namely, in disabling her, bringing potential harm to her crew.
(Evidently the ship was so fragile that a single volley from a Bird,
lucky hit or not, was far beyond what she could handle...no doubt
the heavier-armed E-nil would have to *really* pull her punches
to not do the same thing.)

[Isolder74]

The Borg cutting laser also cut up the Enterprise-D herself- cutting several decks worth out of the main saucer section in Q Who.

Quite true. However, at that point, the E-D's shields had been dropped.
(Presumably, the navigation deflectors were down, too.)

Nav deflectors really puzzle me. DO they only face forward? (That's
a good thought...I hadn't considered that.) And why in the name
of God would they stop LASERS of all things--even lasers of
terribly limited power? That makes no sense given the little we've
heard about what the deflectors are supposed to do.

Furthermore, I dunno if it's substantiated in canon or not, but
the TMs describe how nav deflectors extend many kilometers
around a starship. Err...okay, then: how come in combat,
we don't see enemy starships being literally FORCED back by
the NDs as they close to within a kilometer or so? Nav deflectors
definitely have never done anything remotely close to this.

Also, WRT nav deflectors facing fwd., and to sorta answer my/our
question myself, that would seem to make the most sense, thus
killing my "ah-ha!" observation about the shuttle in "BoBW."
I mean, after all, the nav deflector is generated from that big
honking deflector dish on starships, right? They always face
forward, and most of the time they're used for something other
than nav deflectors, they fire fwd. beams--perhaps even when
it'd be advantageous to not be facing the target.

However...

Starships can go to warp backwards, too ("The Nth Degree," a no.
of shows for which I can't remember the titles...help? ). That'd
require that the nav deflectors offer all-around coverage, as nonsensical
as that seems to me (yet another stupid facet of their function).
Additionally, all-around coverage could be important if the nav
deflectors actually served any usefulness in stopping something
like a laser beam; i.e., your enemy could simply take up a position
in your six and blaze away, not having to deal with dedicated
shields AND NDs at the same time. Seems sorta unlikely, even
given the stupidity of Starfleet engineers.

Also, WRT the Oberth...

I've always liked the design, too. However, I don't think we
need claim that they're armed to a significant degree. I'm
sure they have a phaser bank or few, but Kirk's line about,
"...will she fire on us?" could be rationalized as him being concerned
about having to engage in defensive maneuvers against Grissom
...namely, in disabling her, bringing potential harm to her crew.
(Evidently the ship was so fragile that a single volley from a Bird,
lucky hit or not, was far beyond what she could handle...no doubt
the heavier-armed E-nil would have to *really* pull her punches
to not do the same thing.)

remember who Kirk knew was on board the Grissom? That's right his son I would imagine Kirk would be worried about having to shoot at it.

[Master of Ossus]

Actually, I don't even know why we were arguing. 4000 ships is almost exactly what I pegged their number as, using the same incidents. I also find it noble of you to continue enjoying Harper Lee, as TKMB is definitely one of the great American novels, and is probably one of the best character books ever written.

[Moonshadow]

well there were alot of reasons the Grissom was a One-Shot-Wonder. First of all, J.T. Estiban pissed his pants and freaked out instead of ordering the Shields raised. Also that was a Torpedo to the engine( or maybe the Anti-Matter tanks) with the shields not even raised. The rather unfortunate Klingon Gunner should have used the Disruptors if he wanted to disable it.

Just imagine the Beating the S.S. Vico took before she was destroyed by that what ever it was in "Hero Worship". Not only that, only the bow of the ship was smashed, Most of the ship still held together.

[Jawawithagun]

I think the basic idea for the nav deflector once was to force subatomic particles, interstellar gas and dust out of the ship's flightpath. not all that high powered but it extends far out get the faster particles too and because then their vector has to change only by a small degree, conserving power.

But then the engineers started to modify it into a multipurpose technobabble tool and by the time of TNG it's original function has been forgotten.

Captain: we need a way to emit a tightly focussed beam of coherent light.
Engineer: there's a new module for the nav deflector that could do that, we could install it in 40 minutes.
Captain: so we'll still have five minutes for moral dialogues at the end of the show. do it

[Vympel]

Quite true. However, at that point, the E-D's shields had been dropped. (Presumably, the navigation deflectors were down, too.)

Can navigation deflectors be 'brought down' in that sense?

[greenmm]

The cube was in orbit of earth when it was taken out.

Which cube are you talking about -- ST:FC (which I already knew), or BoBW?

[seanrobertson]

Actually, I don't even know why we were arguing. 4000 ships is almost exactly what I pegged their number as, using the same incidents. I also find it noble of you to continue enjoying Harper Lee, as TKMB is definitely one of the great American novels, and is probably one of the best character books ever written.

You honor me {small bow}

I was sad to have never read _TKMB_ in any of my college
courses (read it here and there on my own); then again,
most of the classes in my major dealt with British lit...
by the time I was a senior and could hand-pick my classes,
I had most of the Eng. major requirements fulfilled.
I figured I'd wait to take more so they might count toward
a Master's (which I've yet to pursue, after changing my mind
several times about what I want to do when I grow up ).

In any event, we were arguing largely because I overlooked
the upshoot of what you were saying. I tend to forget what
constitutes the hard-liner Trek positions on such things
as fleet estimates...shoot, years ago on rec.arts.starteck.tech,
Graham Kennedy and I had a long-running debate about
just that. I thought Starfleet numbered less than 100 ships ,
LOL. I thought his estimate of "thousands" was nuts, at least
until I saw the fourth or fifth seasons of DS9.

[seanrobertson]

Quite true. However, at that point, the E-D's shields had been dropped. (Presumably, the navigation deflectors were down, too.)

Can navigation deflectors be 'brought down' in that sense?

I honestly don't know, Vympel.

My memory of "Q Who?" might be faulty, so please hang with
me

I recall that, after the E-D had shot up the cube, Riker, Data,
Worf, and maybe Pulaski beamed over and fooled around on
the Borg ship for a bit. Data notes that the drones are
working to regenerate the damage, so the away team is
called back, and the E-D hauls ass outta there at warp.

The cube gives pursuit--"It's continuing to regenerate!" exclaims
Riker, loud as always--and fires some kind of shield draining
charges. After a few hits, the E-D loses shields and...

here's the possible clincher...

*drops out of warp.*

That "possible clincher" is also the part about which I am the
fuzziest (I wanted to get all of TNG on DVD, ever since
I got my player in late '97. But lately I've been pretty poor,
so I'll have to wait, rewatch my old tapes (blech!), or
read the transcript.)

If that's what really happened, it would seem to indicate
to me that the E-D's nav deflectors were down as well. If
they weren't, the ship should've been able to keep warpin'
away. Perhaps something else knocked them out of warp,
though...

But to get back to my previous digression, I have a...well,
I hate to call it a "theory," but I have a possible explanation
regarding lasers, nav deflectors, shields, etc.

In short, during "Okona" we know Picard said, "Lasers won't
even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?"
(The script is superficially different.)

We also know that as a shield bubble increases in size its
ability to defend against incoming energies decreases. So
shield size is inversely ratioed to its "strength." We know
this for two reasons:

1--"The Defector." Picard orders LaForge to extend the E-D's
shields around a Romulan scoutship about a kilometer
away. LaForge remarks that w/ the shields configured
in that way, they wouldn't be able to take much punishment
at all.

2--"WoTW," "SoA," and other major fleet engagements
in DS9. We see roughly hull-conformal shields on
almost all craft depicted therein. This was undoubtedly
done to offer greater protection in combat.

Okay, so a smaller shield is better. But, if the TMs (and maybe
a few Okudagrams) are to be believed, nav deflectors
extend waaay out there, at least several hundred meters
or perhaps kilometers around the ship.

Given what nav deflectors are *supposed* to do, they shouldn't
be able to stop lasers at all.

I think there is a way to rationalize all of this.

In "Okona," Picard's statement should be interpreted to mean
that a shield the *size* of the nav deflectors could ward off
laser attacks from those puny ships--that is, IF the nav deflectors
were similar in function to a dedicated combat shield.

That's a stretch, I know, but it's the only thing I can offer
that might explain why he said what he did <shrugging>.

[SpyderGS]

WRT the distance the nav deflectors extend, if you watch the opening sequences of Voyager, you'll see her moving through a planet's dust rings and the particulate matter being pushed aside in a somewhat aerodynamic manner. I think this might argue for somewhat conformal nav shielding. Then again, what's to say there aren't different models or settings?

BTW Hi. N00b here.