The Federation will be able to defeat any Empire invasion.

[brianeyci]

Someone (can't remember who) pointed this out: "What is time travel going to do? Will some Federation captain jump back ten days and tell everyone to run for the hills?"

Actually this is the only thing that I could think of useful for time travel.

Assuming that the Empire arrives through a wormhole, a Fed Captain could go back through time a few months, and warn the Federation to close the wormhole as soon as it opens.

Of course, they're fucked if the ships just came to the ST galaxy the old fashioned way.

Brian

[Lach]

"Your attempts at higher energy yields failed. Try something else."

Since they HAVE all the time to do it, why not? They are not telling them AFTER they tried it. They go RIGHT to the begining of the "project" and give them a list of what has been tried and what did not work. The "morale" is not an issue, to each generation of workers this is the first time, from their perspective.

I'm claiming that you can't set a schedual for massive research like your proposing. The Feds ain't the Japanesse trying to catch up of a few years of research and development on radar that the US had over them, your trying to catch up on 1000's of years of tech.

There are a number of technologies that the Federation knows exists but does not know how to use. Forget utterly new technology, why not work with what you know is possible? Phasic weapons, borg style travel..... you do not need thousands of years of tech. A couple hundred years of tech combined with the PRECISE knowledge of what, when and where the enemy is will help. If you fight an enemy and you know EVERYTHING about the location and composition of the enemy-AND you have all the time you need to decide how to best kill them-you have a tremendous advantage.

In a hundred years, they've really haven't advanced much, and thats the whole empire. You think that if you stick a minute fraction of the people and resources of the Federation on a planet, that they'll come up with more and quicker?

In four hundred years-from today to the Federation they have gone from no space travel to quantum computing, transporters, replicators and the ability to bend space. Oh, let's not forget time travel.... Their tech is not advanced as the empire but they have *ALOT* of stuff the empires civilization did not figure out after millenia after millenia. There has been TREMENDOUS progress in such a short amount of time. They have as much time as they need. The problem of "filling in" the old information is not a problem unless the technology is VASTLY beyond what they currently have. Borg style travel would be a huge step towards equality. Set up the gates to send a massive explosion near clusters of enemy ships....

You want to equate developing hyperdrive and hypermatter equipment or power producing equipment that eclipses what the Feds already know to a team of programers working on a project?

Yes, yes I do.

How the hell do you expect an engineer to design an engine for hypermatter if the physist didn't explain or is unable to explain how it functions. Hell, hows the physist supposed to understand the underlying physics of hypermatter when someone just appeared and dropped a data pad in his lap. Your analogy is seriously flawed.

By that logic NO technology can exist unless each group knows everything entailed. You give each group the SPECIFIC requirments their end of the project needs. We have some weapon.... we need you to make a casing for the energy source that can withstand X joules of energy and Y conductivity-get to work.

See above, you need not understand all principles involved. Even if they do not understand the principles involved, they can just keep trying over and over till they get it right. Time travel was discovered by accident then nailed down by Spock-how can we predict what they will not find entirley by accident in their research?

Just because it is complicated does not make it untrue, sorry.

And when you get to the point that it takes 20 damn years to explain it all so that they understand? Then you have to go back in time again, because the dudes will start dying and then you'll loose the info.

Go back 5 millenia on a completley backwater planet. Get to work.

Again, we're not talking that they need to develope a better Warp drive or increase their weapons by 200%. We're talking of increasing their tech by serious orders of magnitude, creating the materials to use the tech, and then having the resourse to manufacture and construct the tech.

I think the ability to make some utterly MASSIVE explosions and the ability to get the bomb to its destination is all that is needed. They *KNOW* where the enemy will be, develop a new series of bombs and a transportation system to get them there.

Even if your crackpot theory works (and it won't) what do you think will happen? Some redshirt will waltz into Star Fleet Command with plans and diagrams to build shit that they have no way of building?

Actually that is EXACTLY what I had in mind. You have ALL the time you need to draw up plans on how the federation can make it. There is no engineering problem time cannot solve. Every third trial in the star trek universe involves someone pleading guilty because an alien took over their body-time travelers will be looked at with MUCH less scepticism then we would today.... especially when they know for a fact it is possible heh.

Or are you going to send a whole manufacturing plant back in time to retool and start making the pieces to make the parts to create the stuff that can actually start making your advanced tech.

I fail to see how that would also not be a viable solution. Why not?

After that, are you going to send your ship yards back in time, so they have the time to design, build, and test, not to mention train personell, to use the tech?

Why not? The original ship can go back and convince some other captains to help them.

Then how many of these manufacturing plants and ship yards are you going to send back in time so they have time to build thousands of starships to defeat the Empire?

I fail to see why you need ships.... all you need is a revolutionary bomb technology and a delivery system, borg style transportation would get the job done.

Its not a magic bullet.

Whether it is or not, it'll get the job done.

[Lach]

I had not thought of that......

The Empire needs some way to breach the galactic shield and the only viable way I can THINK OF for such a massive fleet without unacceptable cassualties is a wormhole.

Simple.... every time a wormhole opens, send back a ship to warn the federation the location and close the wormhole as it opens.

Problem solved lol!

[Lach]

Also knife, you do not need a better fleet or better technology then the empire to win. You do NOT need to catch up technology. You need a series of VERY specific technologies to DEFEAT the empire-who says you need to be more advanced?

[Howedar]

Surely Lach will give evidence that this "galactic shield" is powerful enough to protect against Imperial vessels and the like. You know, give numbers and evidence to support his assertations.

Haha! Just kidding.

[Gandalf]

Surely Lach will give evidence that this "galactic shield" is powerful enough to protect against Imperial vessels and the like. You know, give numbers and evidence to support his assertations.

Haha! Just kidding.

Well the E-D did leave the galaxy in Where No One Has Gone Before.

[Knife]

Also knife, you do not need a better fleet or better technology then the empire to win. You do NOT need to catch up technology. You need a series of VERY specific technologies to DEFEAT the empire-who says you need to be more advanced?

Its not a matter of a few years of research you tool.

The Empire has the power generation capacity to have weapons that can destroy a Trek ship with one shot. They have shields specifically designed to withstand multiple hits from those very same weapons.

We're talking orders of magnitude. One big ass bomb, or twelve big ass bombs are not going to win the war for you.

[Knife]

Surely Lach will give evidence that this "galactic shield" is powerful enough to protect against Imperial vessels and the like. You know, give numbers and evidence to support his assertations.

Haha! Just kidding.

Well the E-D did leave the galaxy in Where No One Has Gone Before.

But not with its own tech. Super uber alien guy did it for them.

[Lach]

I forgot the source of that is not cannonical... nevermind lol.

Another effective means of fighting the empire though might be to find out how they are traveling to our galaxy, and stopping them.

[Knife]

I forgot the source of that is not cannonical... nevermind lol.

Another effective means of fighting the empire though might be to find out how they are traveling to our galaxy, and stopping them.

With what? Harsh language, honned and refined after centuraries of composition?

[Lach]

Also knife, you do not need a better fleet or better technology then the empire to win. You do NOT need to catch up technology. You need a series of VERY specific technologies to DEFEAT the empire-who says you need to be more advanced?

Its not a matter of a few years of research you tool.

The Empire has the power generation capacity to have weapons that can destroy a Trek ship with one shot. They have shields specifically designed to withstand multiple hits from those very same weapons.

We're talking orders of magnitude. One big ass bomb, or twelve big ass bombs are not going to win the war for you.

How about a hundred big ass bombs hitting every Empire ship, simultaneously? Bombs that are not solar detonators, but on the same level?

[Gandalf]

Another effective means of fighting the empire though might be to find out how they are traveling to our galaxy, and stopping them.

How exactly can they do this?

[Knife]

How about a hundred big ass bombs hitting every Empire ship, simultaneously? Bombs that are not solar detonators, but on the same level?

What solar detonators? The chain reaction thingyies of Generations? What will that do to a ship? Nothing.

[Lach]

That depends on how the hell the empire is getting here. We have no idea how that is. Particles exist which prevent warp drives from working.... the empire does not use warp drives, perhaps the federation can find something that has a similar effect on their means of travel? They could use such a weapon without any sort of problem since they use warp drives.

[Knife]

That depends on how the hell the empire is getting here. We have no idea how that is. Particles exist which prevent warp drives from working.... the empire does not use warp drives, perhaps the federation can find something that has a similar effect on their means of travel? They could use such a weapon without any sort of problem since they use warp drives.

So we give em, basically, unlimited amount of time for research, then we give em unlimit manufacturing time and resources, then we give them advanced tactics.

So at what point does this become the Empire V something that isn't Trek. Is this how Trek wins, by becoming something else?

I restate, your a tool.

[Gandalf]

That depends on how the hell the empire is getting here. We have no idea how that is. Particles exist which prevent warp drives from working.... the empire does not use warp drives, perhaps the federation can find something that has a similar effect on their means of travel? They could use such a weapon without any sort of problem since they use warp drives.

That leaves the issue of them identifying the analysing Imperial tech. How long do you think that would take them?

And why not use these particles when needed? They could have proven very useful in the Dominion War.

[Lach]

That depends on how the hell the empire is getting here. We have no idea how that is. Particles exist which prevent warp drives from working.... the empire does not use warp drives, perhaps the federation can find something that has a similar effect on their means of travel? They could use such a weapon without any sort of problem since they use warp drives.

So we give em, basically, unlimited amount of time for research, then we give em unlimit manufacturing time and resources, then we give them advanced tactics.

So at what point does this become the Empire V something that isn't Trek. Is this how Trek wins, by becoming something else?

I restate, your a tool.

I am sorry if I am a tool because your are wrong, if so I say it with pride.


The Federation does NOT win by becoming something else. Ideally the empire will be defeated but the Federation on a whole will not be changed. It would not be wise to give the technology needed to defeat the Empire to the Federation..... upsetting the timeline and all that stuff .

[Lach]

That depends on how the hell the empire is getting here. We have no idea how that is. Particles exist which prevent warp drives from working.... the empire does not use warp drives, perhaps the federation can find something that has a similar effect on their means of travel? They could use such a weapon without any sort of problem since they use warp drives.

That leaves the issue of them identifying the analysing Imperial tech. How long do you think that would take them?

And why not use these particles when needed? They could have proven very useful in the Dominion War.

Because they basically permanentaly stop all warp drive use in a light year wide area. The risk in using them is enormeous... one mistake and you could wipe out warp drive over a huge area, the admiralty must of deemed it too dangerous to use, even against the dominion. In this case it would be justified but would simply not work-the empire does not fold space.

[Knife]

I am sorry if I am a tool because your are wrong, if so I say it with pride.


The Federation does NOT win by becoming something else. Ideally the empire will be defeated but the Federation on a whole will not be changed. It would not be wise to give the technology needed to defeat the Empire to the Federation..... upsetting the timeline and all that stuff .

Actually, I haven't given up on my previous point, I just noticed that you keep one upping yourself and Wongs post a page or so back came to mind.

The only way you can get Trek to win, is to cheat your way through 100's of years if not 1000's of years of progress (and I still don't think your idea would work) and develope ships and weapons so far beyond Trek that they are no longer Trek and therefore it isn't ST v SW anymore.

[Gandalf]

Because they basically permanentaly stop all warp drive use in a light year wide area. The risk in using them is enormeous... one mistake and you could wipe out warp drive over a huge area, the admiralty must of deemed it too dangerous to use, even against the dominion. In this case it would be justified but would simply not work-the empire does not fold space.

Is this the Omega Particle that you're on about? Good luck using that as a weapon of war.

Or are there other particles you're on about?

[Lach]

I am sorry if I am a tool because your are wrong, if so I say it with pride.


The Federation does NOT win by becoming something else. Ideally the empire will be defeated but the Federation on a whole will not be changed. It would not be wise to give the technology needed to defeat the Empire to the Federation..... upsetting the timeline and all that stuff .

Actually, I haven't given up on my previous point, I just noticed that you keep one upping yourself and Wongs post a page or so back came to mind.

The only way you can get Trek to win, is to cheat your way through 100's of years if not 1000's of years of progress (and I still don't think your idea would work) and develope ships and weapons so far beyond Trek that they are no longer Trek and therefore it isn't ST v SW anymore.

Which previous point specifically do you feel I have not adressed? How is it cheating to get a couple thousand years of work behind their attempt? *THEY* are doing it themselves, a magical pixy wand is not being waved for it to happen. This is one weapon the Federation has in its arsenal-granted it is a VERY complicated weapon but that does not negate the fact it exists. You keep bringing up ships when I keep saying they do not need ships. All they need is a massive bomb technology and a borg style delivery system. It IS still ST vs SW-who says the battle has to take place over the course of one year or one hundred? From the empires perspective it would ideally be very short... empire enters galaxy, several hundred solar nova level explosions instantly destroy their fleet.... battle ends.

[Lach]

Because they basically permanentaly stop all warp drive use in a light year wide area. The risk in using them is enormeous... one mistake and you could wipe out warp drive over a huge area, the admiralty must of deemed it too dangerous to use, even against the dominion. In this case it would be justified but would simply not work-the empire does not fold space.

Is this the Omega Particle that you're on about? Good luck using that as a weapon of war.

Or are there other particles you're on about?

I said it would not be an effective weapon of war VS the Empire. That is what I was talking about.

[Gandalf]

Because they basically permanentaly stop all warp drive use in a light year wide area. The risk in using them is enormeous... one mistake and you could wipe out warp drive over a huge area, the admiralty must of deemed it too dangerous to use, even against the dominion. In this case it would be justified but would simply not work-the empire does not fold space.

Is this the Omega Particle that you're on about? Good luck using that as a weapon of war.

Or are there other particles you're on about?

I said it would not be an effective weapon of war VS the Empire. That is what I was talking about.

So the question remains, how do they identify then come up with a way to stop Imperial ships travelling? Before they get hammered.

[Lach]

I do not know. If it is possible I'll leave it up to the Fed's to figure it out over a few millenia.

[Sarevok]

Surely Lach will give evidence that this "galactic shield" is powerful enough to protect against Imperial vessels and the like. You know, give numbers and evidence to support his assertations.

Haha! Just kidding.

Well the Kelvans from Andromeda were able to make through the galactic barrier in the TOS episode "By any other name". I doubt the barrier is as tough as Lach thinks.