ST vs. SW and Godzilla

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-14 12:34pm

Darth Wong wrote:As for towing him toward the Sun "for a few minutes", it takes several minutes for LIGHT to reach us from the Sun. It's farther away than you seem to realize.

He didn't say it would take a few minutes to reach the sun; he said it would take a few minutes of towing to get good old Gojira onto a trajectory which intersects the sun.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-14 12:34pm

Kurgan wrote:Speaking of which, I wonder what would happen if some hungry sharks ate up that heart? It's just a big hunk of unprocted meat right? Unless it's radioactive and therefore inediable to sea creatures...

If Godzilla's flesh is so dense that tank shells clatter off him like hailstones, I doubt that sea creatures would be able to chomp bits out of him, even if they don't have to bite through te armoured skin first.

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-12-14 12:39pm

drachefly wrote:He didn't say it would take a few minutes to reach the sun; he said it would take a few minutes of towing to get good old Gojira onto a trajectory which intersects the sun.

Problem with that is Godzy can use his nuke breath to propel himself back. Hell, he used it to fly in full gravity during 'Godzilla vs. Hedorah'.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-14 01:12pm

Darth Wong wrote:Photon torpedoes should be effective, although it's hard to say with any degree of accuracy how much firepower you would actually need in order to kill Godzilla. One would think that the high-megaton torps wanked upon by Trekkies should do the job with a direct hit, but there is considerable evidence against those high firepower claims.

I submit that photon torpedoes would be more effective in the lower atmosphere than in ship-to-ship actions. While the efficiency of the torps is arguably a lot less than 100% in space, the antimatter released in the lower atmosphere could hardly get very far before being anihilated.

I haven't seen Godzilla: Monsters All-Out Attack, but if it was a nuke that was used to almost disintigrate Godzilla, it is probable that 200+ torpedoes could do the job. Any remaining bits can be detected due to his being radioactive and Trek scanners seem to be quite effective.

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-12-14 01:23pm

Lord Zentei wrote:I haven't seen Godzilla: Monsters All-Out Attack, but if it was a nuke that was used to almost disintigrate Godzilla, it is probable that 200+ torpedoes could do the job. Any remaining bits can be detected due to his being radioactive and Trek scanners seem to be quite effective.

It wasn't. An explosive torpedo fired from inside his stomach tore through his body and exited through a previous wound inflicted by Ghidorah. Because of the damage, Godzilla's nuke breath went out of control and blew him up from the inside.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 03:51pm

drachefly wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:As for towing him toward the Sun "for a few minutes", it takes several minutes for LIGHT to reach us from the Sun. It's farther away than you seem to realize.
He didn't say it would take a few minutes to reach the sun; he said it would take a few minutes of towing to get good old Gojira onto a trajectory which intersects the sun.

Exactly. Although someone just mentioned Godzilla using his breathe to counter the towing action once released. Presumeably though Godzilla has a limit to the amount of "breath" he can exhale in a vacuum.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 03:54pm

brianeyci wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:After all, the GCS should only need to tow him towards the sun for a few minutes, maybe even not that long.
Actually not that long at all. Just get Godzilla moving towards the sun, and unless Godzilla has thrusters built in he'll slowly go towards it and Enterprise can sit back and sip shots and play poker. Maybe his fire breath could be just as thrusters, awkwardly though. I could imagine Godzilla thrashing about and randomly spewing his fire breath.

Brian

As the captain, I'd want to get the monster heading towards the sun at a pretty good clip, just in case he wises up and tries to use his fire breathing ability to get back to Earth. I assume if the GCS can get him up to a significant speed, maybe even a significant fraction of C, he's screwed fire beath or not.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-14 04:10pm

Unless we have examples of his fire breath runnig out that is not at all a given. Besides he is a 400' ultradense colossus. Can the tractor beams even move him around?

Anyway, there is a huge difference between getting him to "a significant speed, maybe even a significant fraction of C" and "a trajectory which intersects the sun".

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 04:21pm

Lord Zentei wrote:Unless we have examples of his fire breath runnig out that is not at all a given.

No Limits Fallacy.

Besides he is a 400' ultradense colossus. Can the tractor beams even move him around?

A GCS can move a small moon with it's tractor beam. Godzilla in comparison should be easy.

Anyway, there is a huge difference between getting him to "a significant speed, maybe even a significant fraction of C" and "a trajectory which intersects the sun".

Trajectory will need to change depending upon the speed at which Godzilla is thrown towards the sun. What's your point?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-14 04:24pm

Robert Walper wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:Unless we have examples of his fire breath runnig out that is not at all a given.
No Limits Fallacy.

Godzilla doesn't need infinite firepower, dumb-ass. Just enough to take out the Enterprise's tractor beam, or the ship itself.

Besides he is a 400' ultradense colossus. Can the tractor beams even move him around?
A GCS can move a small moon with it's tractor beam. Godzilla in comparison should be easy.

You lying little shitbag. I'm sick and tired of you spewing shit you KNOW to be grossly distorted in order to back up your bullshit.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-14 04:49pm

Darth Wong wrote:You lying little shitbag. I'm sick and tired of you spewing shit you KNOW to be grossly distorted in order to back up your bullshit.

Did I miss something. In "Deja Q", all the characters call the asteroid a "small moon". Okay, maybe it doesn't look like a small moon but they say this (in the script),

Script wrote: DATA
(checking readings)
Inertial mass of the moon has
decreased to approximately
two-point-five million metric
tons...

Okay, Walper called it a "moon" and maybe on screen it didn't look like a moon. So what, all the characters called it a moon, Q called it a moon. If its a question of semantics, fine it isn't a moon but a large muthafuka that weighs 2.5 million metric tons. Doesn't change Walper's argument. If I'm missing something large here feel free to embarass me. The only thing I can think of is the above lines from the script didn't actually appear in the episode.

Brian

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 05:00pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:Unless we have examples of his fire breath runnig out that is not at all a given.
No Limits Fallacy.
Godzilla doesn't need infinite firepower, dumb-ass. Just enough to take out the Enterprise's tractor beam, or the ship itself.

Which is why I asked earlier if anyone could quantify his destructive ability in comparison to Trek weaponry to see if it's up to the job.

Besides he is a 400' ultradense colossus. Can the tractor beams even move him around?
A GCS can move a small moon with it's tractor beam. Godzilla in comparison should be easy.
You lying little shitbag. I'm sick and tired of you spewing shit you KNOW to be grossly distorted in order to back up your bullshit.

For fuck's sake Mike, they called it a moon. It was large enough to be spherical in shape, and I specified small. What do you want to call it? A round asteroid? What?

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-14 05:02pm

If Gajera's breath is 'nuclear', perhaps he has a gas source in the alpha decay of whatever it is his stomach is made of?

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-14 05:03pm

(excuse my nonstandard transliterations, you know who I'm talking about I'm sure)

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 05:04pm

brianeyci wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You lying little shitbag. I'm sick and tired of you spewing shit you KNOW to be grossly distorted in order to back up your bullshit.
Did I miss something. In "Deja Q", all the characters call the asteroid a "small moon". Okay, maybe it doesn't look like a small moon but they say this (in the script),

Script wrote: DATA
(checking readings)
Inertial mass of the moon has
decreased to approximately
two-point-five million metric
tons...
Okay, Walper called it a "moon" and maybe on screen it didn't look like a moon.

Actually, it did. It was evenly spherical in shape as I recall.

So what, all the characters called it a moon, Q called it a moon. If its a question of semantics, fine it isn't a moon but a large muthafuka that weighs 2.5 million metric tons.

According to Data the moon's inertial mass decreased to 2.5 million metric tons, so that's a lower limit on it's mass.

Furthermore, I don't see why the GCS couldn't employ the same technique against godzilla to make it even easier to move him around.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-14 05:07pm

Hey fucktard, the point is that you didn't bother mentioning the episode so someone who was not already familiar with the subject would probably assume from your vague wording that you meant a more traditionally sized moon than the relatively miniscule couple-of-km-wide rock that we saw in "Deja Q". This is exactly the kind of "oops, I didn't mean to deceive anyone" bullshit that I'm talking about, asshole.

And saying that its reduced mass was 2.5 million metric tons hardly makes it what most people would normally consider a moon. The Enterprise itself is more massive than that. As for these "mass-lightening" fields, THEY CAN ONLY EXTEND A FEW KM AHEAD OF THE SHIP, YOU FUCKING MORON. Godzilla is on the surface, the Ent-D is in orbit. What part of this geometry do you not understand, exactly?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 05:12pm

Darth Wong wrote:Hey fucktard, the point is that you didn't bother mentioning the episode so someone who was not already familiar with the subject would probably assume from your vague wording that you meant a more traditionally sized moon than the relatively miniscule couple-of-km-wide rock that we saw in "Deja Q". This is exactly the kind of "oops, I didn't mean to deceive anyone" bullshit that I'm talking about, asshole.

And saying that its reduced mass was 2.5 million metric tons hardly makes it what most people would normally consider a moon. The Enterprise itself is more massive than that. As for these "mass-lightening" fields, THEY CAN ONLY EXTEND A FEW KM AHEAD OF THE SHIP, YOU FUCKING MORON. Godzilla is on the surface, the Ent-D is in orbit. What part of this geometry do you not understand, exactly?

So you're suggesting the GCS utilizing it's tractor beam is not a practical arguement?

And as to the mass lightening field, I was thinking they'd employ that once having pulled him into space. Now I realize that's just a tad stupid, since if they can pull him into space at that point, employing the field does't really seem necessary.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-14 05:29pm

Robert Walper wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote: Anyway, there is a huge difference between getting him to "a significant speed, maybe even a significant fraction of C" and "a trajectory which intersects the sun".
Trajectory will need to change depending upon the speed at which Godzilla is thrown towards the sun. What's your point?

My point is 1)that Godzilla's atomic breath can quite possible bring him back to Earth if all the tractor beams did was send him on a collission course with the Sun, and 2) that the ability to send him on a collission course with the Sun does not imply the ability to send him flying through space at a high fracion of c.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-12-14 05:32pm

Man, he must really have it in for you. Directly from that episode:

PICARD
Captain's log, Stardate 43539.1.
We have moved into orbit around
Bre'el Four to investigate a
potentially catastrophic threat
to the population from a
descending asteroidal moon...

PICARD
Won't the moon disintegrate prior
to impact?

DATA
The total mass of the moon would
remain the same, Commander. And
the impact of thousands of
fragments would spread destruction
over an even wider area.

PICARD
Captain's log, supplemental. We
are no closer to finding a
solution to the deteriorating
orbit of the Bre'el Four moon...

GEORDI
The beam was flexing, and it was
impossible to transfer enough
kinetic energy to the moon...

PICARD
The millions of people down there
who are watching as their moon
falls out of the sky...

and so on and so forth

yes he didn't mention the episode, but most obviously knew exactly what he was talking about.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-14 05:40pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Enterprise itself is more massive than that. As for these "mass-lightening" fields, THEY CAN ONLY EXTEND A FEW KM AHEAD OF THE SHIP, YOU FUCKING MORON. Godzilla is on the surface, the Ent-D is in orbit. What part of this geometry do you not understand, exactly?

That is the issue, as Robert has already conceded:

Robert Walper wrote:And as to the mass lightening field, I was thinking they'd employ that once having pulled him into space. Now I realize that's just a tad stupid, since if they can pull him into space at that point, employing the field does't really seem necessary.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-14 05:51pm

Ent-D in orbit means at least, the Feds won't lose. Unless Godzilla can somehow sprout wings, I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some Godzilla movie where he goes into a cocoon and flies lol.

How the hell did they kill Godzilla. Maybe that is a good place to start, and see if Ent-D would be likely/able to duplicate that feat. I only watched one jap Godzilla movie on the space channel, and that was a bad English translation.

Brian

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-12-14 06:23pm

Brianeyci, on that DITL thing... 250 torps at 1/sec = 4 minutes. Try doing the math yourself, especially when you're reading DITL.

I just want to add that this is a scenario where the greatest Trekkie Cop Out is useless; someone ALREADY tried to defeat Godzilla by going back in time, in the MechaGhidora one.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 06:32pm

I think it's safe to say the GCS can "kill" Godzilla with it's torpedo payload. "Killing" in the sense of killing him similar to how Earth forces "kill" him, seemingly only for certain periods of time until he regenerates.

I believe someone mentioned the idea of hurling him into space or at the sun, and that seems like a pretty permanent solution to the Godzilla problem, hence why I decided to pursue the idea.

Still wondering if the GCS has the ability to do it. I was under the impression their tractor beams are capable of grabbing objects off the surface of a planet. Hell, a small craft in STTNG "Devil's Due" can cause significant earthquates with a "low frequency" tractor beam. And it certainly did so from orbit, since the E-D was masked by the same craft's cloaking device while it performed this feat. At the very least their tractor beams have that range. And the STTNG "Deja Q" example was my attempt to submit a level of power the GCS can bring to bear with it's tractor beam.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-12-14 09:03pm

Problem with tossing him into space

Part of him was tossed into space, and it mutated into King Ghidorah

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-14 09:22pm

Solauren wrote:Problem with tossing him into space

Part of him was tossed into space, and it mutated into King Ghidorah

Not just space, into the sun. Although at this point I wouldn't be surprised if that just mutated him also into some uber planet gobbling Gojira or whatever.