phasers and lightsabers

[brianeyci]

Okay GR, this is for you. Let's try and see if phasers on kill would be able to overcome a Jedi's energy absorbition.

Before anyone starts replying to my points, please read the whole post and the last part where I deal with the obvious objections to this theory.

First lets try and see what energy absorbition is. There are a few possibilities (some of them silly).

1. The Jedi is somehow encased in The Force. This is what protects the Jedi.
2. The Jedi's absorbition is part of the robes he wears.
3. The "energy absorbition" is actually a field effect.

We've seen what Force looks like -- Force Lightning. Jedi don't glow. As well, we've seen people hugging and touching Jedi, and a Jedi needs to be able to manipulate at least his lightsaber. So a Jedi is not encased in Force.

The robes idea is interesting, but why do we not hear of "passing of the robes"? If robes are so special, why didn't Obi-Wan give Luke his robes in the control room in ANH when he knew he was going to stealth his way into the tractor beam room and then sacrifice himself? If there is evidence in the EU of magical robes, then fine. If not, this is a ridiculous proposition, that a fabric can absorb and dissipate megajoules worth of energy. Why isn't this special fabric used as blast doors, and why do only Jedi have a monopoly on this special fabric?

Number three makes the most sense. It has the added advantage of explaining why we see robes seemingly absorb blaster bolts. The robes don't actually dissipate the blaster bolts with this hypothesis, just that the field effect extends beyond the clothes.

Next question is where the hell does all that energy go. Well we don't have to look too far for an answer. DW mentioned awhile back in a different thread that an Acclaimator's shield turns blaster bolts into neutrinos. Since when a Jedi absorbs the energy we don't see light, hear sound, or any effects that usually should be associated with megajoules of energy being released, this is reasonable and doesn't violate Occam's Razor since we know in the SW universe turning energy into neutrinos is possible.

So, a field effect that absorbs and dissipates energy into neutrinos... sounds familiar? Of course, it is equivalent to a shield. Whether generated by the Force or not is irrelevant.

Now,

QUARK
The Breen CRM-one-fourteen works
equally well against moving
vessels or surface emplacements.
It's guaranteed to cut through
reactive armor in the six-to-
fifteen centimeter range, and
shields up to four-point-six
gigajoules.
<snip>

Quark taps the PADD again. From another direction, a
hulking, seven-foot, heavily armored WARRIOR lunges
toward the Customer, weapon in hand.

The Customer spins and FIRES at the Warrior,
DISINTEGRATING the attacker.

First, since the CRM-114 disintegrates the "warrior", we know that the CRM-114 relies on NDF rather than DET. According to phasers.net, the Breen are one of three Alpha Quadrant races to use this weapon (ST:GEN), so it is hardly rare or difficult to obtain. As well, the CRM-114 is the same chassis as the TR-116, but in a different colour and (obviously) not shooting a projectile like a TR-116. So an in-universe explaination is that SF has the replicator pattern for a Breen Disruptor Rifle. This weapon is also not a single-shot or a special weapon designed to penetrate shields either, since we see Breen soldiers carry it. Now, if hand phasers which also use NDF are even 1/100th or an order of magnitude less effective against shields than the Breen weapon (ridiculous), they would still be in megajoule range slightly below the 6 MJ threshold of a Jedi's field effect aka shield.

Now for the obvious objections.

"A phaser works on NDF, not DET, so the Jedi would be able to effortlessly absorb the energy outputted by a phaser."

Well,

... However, the unique nature of the phaser NDF chain reaction, coupled with so-called "subspace" effects, appear to offset the limitations of this low power level. In the end analysis, the actual amount of power is totally irrelevant, but the tactical strength of phasers relative to plasma and EM radiation is relevant.

The amount of energy outputted by a phaser is irrelevant when discussing its effects. A shipboard phaser is only 1-10TW equivalent against dense armor, but 30k - 40k TW equivalent against shields. Similarly, a hand phaser being in megajoule range against shields is not inconsistent with the rest of ST.

"Quark could have been wrong."

Of course Quark could have been wrong. But so could Riker have about using all of the Enterprise's torpedoes to destroy the asteroid. So could Data about the terawatt. The point is that there's no reason to believe Quark was talking out of his ass, and to boot Quark was talking to a customer who knew his shit (who wouldn't know their shit with the resources to buy two thousand rifles?).

"That number means the Breen could have overrun the entire AQ if they wanted."

Not necessarily. The 4.6 gigajoule figure is only against shields. Since the Breen Disruptor still relies on NDF, it would have the same weakness against armor as Federation phasers. Plus, with 30k-40k TW phasers, eight seconds of phaser fire lowers a GCS' shields. A full spread (10) torpedoes lowers a GCS' shields. So, the Breen having a weapon that can lower shields quickly would only give them a few seconds of advantage in a firefight. Given how little hull damage phasers/disruptors do, and how small the yield of photon torpedoes are (current numbers are 0.625 kilotons according to MoS analysis of Nemesis) the Breen's advantage of a few seconds means jackshit and definitely does not mean they can cut through hull armor any more effectively than Feds can.

Also, there is a possibility that Breen ship weapons are less powerful than Breen handheld weapons against shields. Before you call me an idiot, hear me out. In "Wrongs... " we hear of an ultritium explosive that has a twenty meter blast radius. Now if we take the ST:V torpedo, definitely not a twenty meter blast radius, we come to the ridiculous conclusion that it is possible in ST to have personal weapons that are more powerful than shipboard weapons. Kira's ultritium explosive was the size of an earring -- imagine how much more powerful a torpedo based on ultritium would be than photon torpedoes. Ultritium can't be replicated, since we hear of the Dominion mining it, but dilithium can't be replicated either and I don't believe we've seen someone replicate antimatter, in fact in VOY IIRC they needed to find antimatter. So there's no proof that ultritium is exceptionally rare. However stupid it sounds, there are Trek ship weapons that are less powerful/effective than handheld.

"The field effect, if that's what it is, is generated by the Force. The gigajoule figure was against AQ shields and therefore might not be the same against a Jedi's shield."

But the Trekkie's argument is based on the assumption that the bubble-style shields of Star Trek (whose appearance was actually copied from the 1953 classic "War of the Worlds") must be superior to any other defensive concept. This is an assumption for which he has no evidence. Who says that the immaterial shields used in Star Wars and Star Trek are the only way to do it? There's more than one way to skin a cat:
<snip pics>
Again, I'm not trying to say that Battlestar Galactica is superior to Trek in every way, or take a side in another "vs" subject. I'm only trying to point out that you can't win one of these "vs" arguments by saying, in essence, that "your sci-fi series isn't the same as my sci-fi series". In this example, the Trekkie tries to prove that Galactica is inferior because it lacks Trek-style energy shields. But the Galactica fan could just as easily argue that Trek is inferior because it lacks Galactica-style superconducting armour. It would have to come down to the same thing it always comes down to: comparing the quantity of energy that can be handled or unleashed by each of the respective ships.

Saying that "My shield made of The Force is better than your shield" is ridiculous. Now, if you could show that Jedi didn't use a field effect but rather some sort of dense armor to absorb and dissipate energy, then there would be a case, but otherwise I don't see how you can argue "my shield is different than your shield therefore your weapon won't hurt my shield" without committing the same mistake that the "trekkie" did in the above example. Also note the last sentence, DW says "comparing the quantity of energy that can be handled or unleashed by each respective ship". For phasers, we know that they have different effects on shields than dense elements, so for phasers we compare how a phaser acts with respect with a shield if we are considering a shield.

"The energy absorbition might not be a field effect."

Well what the hell is it then? I'm open to suggestions.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Worf did in fact, move the stream to his phaser beam while firing. Watch the clip.

Any small movement of the arm would have been sufficient to move twenty degrees. The hand movement is generally accepted as Worf twitching, not conciously moving his hand downward (I believe SirNitram holds this position).

Besides, you're talking like this gun battle is going to last a protracted period of time. It will only be seconds, and the phaser waver won't have all day to play catch-up with a Jedi who will either

A. Merely take his weapon

B. Cut it and the weilder's hand in two

C. Dodge the blast by jumping over the shooter

Of course. But all these things a Jedi can do with a person who uses a blaster too. I'm not saying that phasers would be uber and a redshirt/competent person with a phaser (if they exist in ST) could kill a hundred Jedi. I'm just trying to show the advantages of a continuous beam weapon. Again, dodging and jumping will be quantified later when I'm not sitting at home with a 40 fever on antibiotics.

You can't provide that proof because it doesn't exist. A jedi doesn't have to stand there and hold the lightsaber in the way of an incoming energy beam. As Obi-Wan and Mace Windu has shown onscreen, they can merely wait until the beam is upon them and deflect it as they are moving on to other business.

Of course. A Jedi can move. My proof was based on a simplified mode of a Jedi standing still. Later I will quantify how easily it would be for a person to simply move his arm to keep up with a Jedi's speed with a continuous beam weapon.

See above. Range isn't going to matter to somebody who can "see things before they happen" and react accordingly.

Of course. But I am not saying that a person with a phaser would be uber against Jedi. You would need overwhelming numbers of phasers to kill a Jedi, at least as many as the number of blasters necessary to kill a Jedi depending on the situation. All I am trying to prove is that a person with a continuous beam weapon would be as effective if not more effective than a person with a blaster.

Brian

[Darth Fanboy]

Didn't the Ssi-Ruuk use a continuous beam weapon? It reacted differently than any other weapon to the lightsaber blade but I was thinking of it more in relation to their success in beating Luke Skywalker.

[The Silence and I]

Uhg, too much to read...

I thought brianeyci's idea was a good one, but I can see Walper has hit the nail on the head

Well I had to say that, so I guess I should contribute too. Darn. Here goes:

I am going to utilize a bit of speculation to help me approach this scenario, so take it how you will (lol).

Phasers are particle weapons (First Contact) but do not kill through particle KE (lack of what would be serious kick back). These particles (I predict three flavors, but it really doesn't matter much) can be made to have three effects* on a living being: some kind of nervous system disablement (AKA stun), thermal effects (Phaser burns are oft mentioned, heating rocks to thermal illumination also comes to mind), and lastly the ability to make stuff go away (AKA "Vaporization" or if you like,"Phasorization").

These particles can be said to be generated within the phaser device, travel at various speeds to the target and then produce their specific result--my current theory favors the particles decaying into various forms; energy (infared for thermal settings), agents harmful to the nervous system (for stun), and some catalyst for total material disintegration. This last is likely achieved in part or whole through decay into an exotic form of short-lived lethal radiation (Spock is severely injured without a mark on him from an extreme proximity phaser blast on disintegrate). It can be furthur speculated these particles are all extremely short lived--in line with most exotic particles and also explaining why we have never seen such odd effects in nature.

To explain how such short-lived particles can travel great distances without great speed is the ever handy subspace; we know phasers have a subspace component, I expect it serves as a jacket, a tube in which these particles can exist for longer periods of time--this also allows phaser use at warp. Upon impact the subspace jacket penetrates the target, but spreads through it as there is limited interaction. Within the now expanding jacket the particles move about and spread; but all too soon the jacket is ruptured and the particles within decay into their various properties. I have thought of details for and variations on this jacket which make this better fit the range of on-screen examples but that is not the point of this post.

No, the point of all that speculation (which I do hope sounds reasonable, at least as reasonable as turbolaser speculation anyway) is to show my line of thinking when I say this: A lightsabre will not reflect a phaser beam. The jacket containing and sustaining the particles will be ruptured upon impact and essentially the beam will attempt to stun/heat/phasorize the sabre blade--which of course it can't. The only danger to the Jedi may be the radiation which hit Spock--the range would not be much, Riker can stand a few feet from a similar event without worry, but if in the course of blocking a beam the Jedi holds his sabre close to him it may become an issue.

*I realize treknobabble rears its ugly head here, but the majority of examples can be thought of as stun (likely electronic in nature) thermal or material disintegration. Of course there is no reason to assume any one phaser hit can only exhibit any one of these three; phasorization is probably a superior method for destroying ship hulls than DET (even if the reaction is less effective on denser materials it has always been assumed (I believe) that it is still more efficient than DET--I could be wrong on that assumption though) while a thermal setting will effect an energy shield more readily.


One quick note: From what I've read it looks like brianeyci is merely trying to say a continuous beam weapon with wide beam capability has a few merits against a force user that a tightly confined pulse firing weapon does not. [Please note: "merits" does not equal hunting Jedi becomes a sport for the masses.] I suspect the fact that phasers fit the bill is really the issue, not the logic in the statement, but I could be wrong.

[brianeyci]

Uhg, too much to read...

Better have one big post that deals with all the obvious objections, than go on for five more pages one by one refuting the objections.

I thought brianeyci's idea was a good one, but I can see Walper has hit the nail on the head

Well the guy who had a 10 cm nail in his head only had a headache for a week. Can't be that bad .

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Y'know for all your long winded yabbering...we have seen what the energy asorbation is.

And once again use objective evidence.

Guess where we saw it. Vader using it against Han. He took three blaster shots and redirected each. No shield effect, no anything except the results.

Thus it's obvious a CONTROLLED EFFECT but certainly gives no resembleness to a field unless the Jedi WANTS it to be. No disspation, no neutrino, and it doesn't even resemeble the shield effect even when Luke used it.

So please, if you want to keep up with your long winded pointlessness where you don't even fucking CHECK SW canon, keep going because you're batting a fucking 1.000.

[Kruk]

GR, if I good remember, in NJO one of the Jedi was 'absorbing' power of the lightsaber. It still affected him, but not in such degree as it will in normally. Also he said something about his 'organism' is able to absorb energy.

Also, in Thrawn duology, Luke was thinking about erecting a Force FIELD around himself to protect him and Mara from some sort of bugs.

As we can ee, absorbtion and shielding/reflection (Vader case) is something different. And the second can be probably used only by very advanced Jedi - it's probably based on kinetic abilities (deflecting physical bodies).

So, no, we dont know what absobtion is, at least not for sure. From books it seems like the Jedi absorbing energy into it's body, not deflecting it.

Also - for all those who are saing about doging etc - in ROTJ Luke stand in place and dont move to deflect blaster shots.

-----------

Hope someone will be able to understood what i wrote - to be sick and write in english is horror.

[Ghost Rider]

Two things Kruk.

Prove Phasers have the SPEED of a blaster shot...which was Poe's point. It doesn't unless Worf is moving hundreds of meters per second.

It's nice to dress it up fivew ways to Sunday but not prove by any extension is like a particle shield or even Ray shield.

Luke has shown it's a shield but has none of the effects either the particle or ray shield thus using that as an analogy is useless unless you FIND a common ground.

[Kruk]

On close ranges, IF jedi is not moving, it does not matter - phasers can be fired as long lasting beams (Arsenal of Freedom)- and even Jedi can deflect only one shot at time. So, if Jedi is not moving, two guys with phasers will be enough to kill him. Specialy, as one can 'dodge' reflected phaser shoot without stopping shooting.

guy with phaser against someon on Yoda or even fully trained JEdi will have the same chance as guy with blaster - none, as Jedi will dodge the shot.

But bryan in his post esspecialy stated, that Jedi is not moving around and is not specially good trained.

[Meest]

On close ranges, IF jedi is not moving, it does not matter - phasers can be fired as long lasting beams (Arsenal of Freedom)- and even Jedi can deflect only one shot at time. So, if Jedi is not moving, two guys with phasers will be enough to kill him. Specialy, as one can 'dodge' reflected phaser shoot without stopping shooting.

You mean like this?

[brianeyci]

Guess where we saw it. Vader using it against Han. He took three blaster shots and redirected each. No shield effect, no anything except the results.

Energy redirection is another topic. I was discussing passive energy absorbition. Someone mentioned that Dooku's robes deflected a blaster shot earlier in the thread, and I took that at face value. If Dooku's robes appeared to absorb the blaster shot, then obviously Jedi have some sort of "passive" field effect that protects them from blaster shots (passive as in not requiring the use of their hands). Unless you want to say the robes were somehow absorbed the blaster shots, but that brings in a host of other problems (not to mention that being ridiculous).

Certain Wars shields do not have a visible shield effect a la Star Trek (as if you didn't know this, you know this better than me, why are you asking for a shield effect?).

The TradeFed battleship shields. These shields were, for all intents and purposes, invisible. Although we could never see a trace of a shield bubble or envelope, we could hear frustrated pilots reporting that they were unable to penetrate the shields, and we saw that they had been unable to cause any damage in spite of having attacked the ship for several minutes (and undoubtedly, firing huge numbers of energy beams and torpedoes at it). The shields stop both matter and energy,...

Also, there are Trek shields that do not give a visible shield effect as well, most notable the Borg and perhaps Klingon ships (we saw in WOTW ships very close to DS9 being hit by torpedoes and no shield effect, the usual justification is that those ships had already lost their shields but it could also be that Klingon shields don't necessarily work the same way as Fed shields a la bubble). Which means that the CRM-114, if Quark is to be believed, is effective against these types of shields as well. Even if phasers are off by an order of magnitude, they are still in megajoule range against shields.

I watched ANH on tv last Saturday, and could not recall a "bubble" effect shield. In fact, I can't recall any shield effects at all. When MF was taking off and being shot by 6 MJ blaster bolts, obviously Han would have raised the shields and there was no "bubble" effect or any other visible shield effect despite them being in the atmosphere.

Thus it's obvious a CONTROLLED EFFECT but certainly gives no resembleness to a field unless the Jedi WANTS it to be. No disspation, no neutrino, and it doesn't even resemeble the shield effect even when Luke used it.

Obviously, I was discussing a Jedi's passive energy absorbition, not energy redirection. Without the explaination of a passive field effect, there's no other reasonable explaination why robes would deflect megajoules worth of blaster shots. Energy redirection is different than energy absorbition. Neutrinos would not be visible to the naked eye, that is the entire point of using them (duh), since we already know it is possible to dissipate energy into neutrinos in the SW verse and we don't know where those megajoules of energy go, this is a reasonable hypothesis without introducing additional unknowns. Vader needed to move his hand to deflect the blaster shots, not just think that he wanted to deflect the blaster shots, so energy redirection is already different than the situation with Dooku's robes (assuming Dooku's robes deflecting blaster shots is correct since nobody objected to it earlier).

So please, if you want to keep up with your long winded pointlessness where you don't even fucking CHECK SW canon, keep going because you're batting a fucking 1.000.

I think you want to mean 0.000 since 1.000 would mean I'm perfect. If you don't want to accept the field effect theory, then explain how it seems as if robes can deflect megajoules worth of energy. Energy redirection is a different matter entirely than energy absorbition since it requires that Vader use his hands to redirect the blaster bolts much like you need to use your hands for a force pull or a force choke. If you want me to address energy redirection, fine, one step at a time.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Yes, because if you're batting a 1.000 on the fucking idiot scale...it would be the same as what I've been keep saying.

And try and check you resources. Dooku's robes asorb this because it's technology, not because of his force powers.

As for shield effect...think of this point. The fact that ships(TIEs in particular) seemingly get blast around their ship which some people call flak where there is none in a weapon that has no such shrapnel effect.

And once again you are bandying semantic. Energy redirection is different then asorbation. And your proof is?

And oh yeah...Vader had to move his hand....just like they need visual cues to use a mental power . For your canon proof they don't need to...I don't remember Vader using his HAND on Ozzel.

Fucking A. It's the same deal over and over...you keep having people walk you through situations that take very little thought to think about.

[brianeyci]

And try and check you resources. Dooku's robes asorb this because it's technology, not because of his force powers.

Is this canon or just intepretation? I'll check.

As for shield effect...think of this point. The fact that ships(TIEs in particular) seemingly get blast around their ship which some people call flak where there is none in a weapon that has no such shrapnel effect.

I know, but there are shields that don't have this flak effect. Easiest example is MF being shot as it leaves the hangar in ANH, do you think Han wouldn't have raised the shields? Possibly more examples exist, and the Trade Fed battleship is probably one (if there's no flak).

And once again you are bandying semantic. Energy redirection is different then asorbation. And your proof is?

That's really simple guy. If energy absorbition was the same as energy redirection, then for the instances of blaster fire being absorbed, the blaster shot should have deflected back towards its target rather than going nowhere. Duh.

And oh yeah...Vader had to move his hand....just like they need visual cues to use a mental power . For your canon proof they don't need to...I don't remember Vader using his HAND on Ozzel.

He strangled Ozzel. Fine, strangling someone doesn't need to move your hand, but you need to move your hand to deflect blaster bolts. What, do you think Vader was moving his hand for fun, to show off? What about Obi-Wan moving his hand to force push the droids? Think that was a cool pose for his fans?

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

*sigh*...once again, you really don't actually show anything beyond your own personal stupidtiy

Fine.

Here goes because after 4+ pages...you still ahevn't done what at heart your jabberings have been.

Show through objective proof that Trek has to offer you, that Phasers would fare better against a Jedi. And none of this it might, it could possibly or maybe. This because this has been a post count +1 for everyone involved and so far you keep piling it up without actually proving your stance. If you want mindless jabber there's testing.

I'll let you have all the time you want...but you better make the post a good one that has OBJECTIVE PROOF or I will lock this spamfest.

So put up or shut up.

[Batman]

And try and check you resources. Dooku's robes asorb this because it's technology, not because of his force powers.

Is this canon or just intepretation? I'll check.

You realize that eve if it isn't canon (about which I have no idea), it's speculation either way. As we already have canon evidence of materials defeating lightsabers that are light and flexible enough to weave...

I know, but there are shields that don't have this flak effect. Easiest example is MF being shot as it leaves the hangar in ANH, do you think Han wouldn't have raised the shields?

Err, as shields aren't all that effective in atmosphere, and he wasn't faced with any reasonable threat, why should he?

And once again you are bandying semantic. Energy redirection is different then asorbation. And your proof is?

That's really simple guy. If energy absorbition was the same as energy redirection, then for the instances of blaster fire being absorbed, the blaster shot should have deflected back towards its target rather than going nowhere. Duh.

Thank you for posting nothing of relevance. Evidence that either of them is a field effect, while the other is not?

And oh yeah...Vader had to move his hand....just like they need visual cues to use a mental power . For your canon proof they don't need to...I don't remember Vader using his HAND on Ozzel.

He strangled Ozzel. Fine, strangling someone doesn't need to move your hand, but you need to move your hand to deflect blaster bolts.

As evidenced by?

What, do you think Vader was moving his hand for fun, to show off?

Yes, as a matter of fact.

What about Obi-Wan moving his hand to force push the droids? Think that was a cool pose for his fans?

Actually quite imaginable in the prequels, and compairing a Jedi Padawan/Knight to a Sith Lord isn't exactly smart. Why don't you check the stuff Luke did in the EU and come back to me about them needing hand waving to achieve it.

[brianeyci]

Okay.

Take a stormtrooper with his advanced HUD system integrated with his firearm, which in this case is a continuous beam firing weapon. Let's use a phaser, tinkered so that it discharges a continuous beam as long as the person depresses the fire button (like Mind's Eye Type-III which fired for like a minute unlike standard phasers).

Use simple trignometry. TanT = o/a. Construct the following chart.

|x=|=5=|=10|=15|=20|
|2=|20=|10=|8=|6=|
|3=|31=|17=|11=|9=|
|5=|45=|27=|18=|14=|
|7=|55=|35=|25=|19=|
|10|64=|45=|34=|27=|

Sorry my formatting skills aren't uber. But it should be readable. Column headings represent the distance to the target. Row headings represent the speed per second with which the target moves. We see the degree corrections the stormtrooper has to make to keep up with the target. Now point your finger outward and move it from left to right. You'll see that it takes less than a second to move your hand 180 degrees. Moving up and downward is a little more difficult, but about a second as well.

A stormtrooper with an advanced HUD system to assist for these degree corrections would be able to correct for his aim easily, even a 60 degree correction would not be too difficult.

Now, blasters obviously can't correct for accuracy this way since they are not continuous beam.

Objective enough?

Brian

[brianeyci]

Sorry, rows are meant to be distance a target moves per time unit.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

I am glad you can use Trig likemost high schoolers.

And no this is not objective proof. Okay...for shits and giggles I'll give you one more shot...because you try.

Show in the context of velocity and joules this accomplishment, because once again...you haven't shown shit.

[brianeyci]

I am glad you can use Trig likemost high schoolers.

I cheated, I used a calculator, I can barely remember what tan-1(1/1) is especially when I'm on antibiotics and pretty sick . Although that means I don't have to take my abstract math midterm today thank god, my doctor called and agreed to give the appropriate ex... er reasons.

And no this is not objective proof. Okay...for shits and giggles I'll give you one more shot...because you try.

Thanks for not locking the thread earlier (no sarcasm intended), we've gone off on a lot of tangents.

Show in the context of velocity and joules this accomplishment, because once again...you haven't shown shit.

Velocity can be intepreted in that chart. For example, take a Jedi moving at 10 m/s and then you get a sixty degree correction in one second by the stormie using the HUD.

For joules -- here it goes. In Enterprise "Regeneration", they dealt with the Borg by -- guess how, increasing the output of their phase pistols to 10 megajoules! Now, a hand phaser only has a 4.7 megajoule capacity and normally uses only 0.05 MJ, but if a phaser rifle has lets say three or four times the ammo of a hand phaser, or even twice the power of a phaser, a smart Stormtrooper using a phaser could increase the power output to overcome a Jedi's defenses. Given that a phase pistol can do this a 24th Century phaser rifle should be able to do this as well. It is likely that phase pistols have more ammo than phasers because phasers are "regenerative" while phase pistols are not, so the beam wouldn't last very long, depending on how large the clip size for a phaser rifle is.

Why the hell don't they do this against the Borg normally? Who the hell knows, Ent fucked up continuity so badly anyway, the only apparent explaination is that TNG+ are idiots for not trying more energetic weapons against the Borg (there are other explainations out there though).

Brian

[Kruk]

Nice picture.
It was not simultaneously. It was one blast after another. If the first one will be continous beam, Luke will be nice, crispy toast (or Luke "the phasorised").

[Ghost Rider]

It's amazing, that after I give you this...you actually don't do what I asked, and thus I'm locking because you are parroting your fucking bullshit again trying to give it a mask that you did something I can argue against instead of wondering "So how fast is he claiming the phaser to be?"

I'm not even going into the fact that Poe did point out that Ferengi can dodge said beam which does not mean much, but on general observation the Jedi can avoid it.

Also interstingly...why didn't Worf simply do what you're proposing, but I digress since I'm not wanting to hear your obvious jibbering that he was stupid like you've noted so many times that it's become a mantra of sorts.

I asked to show that this beam upper and lower end velocities. I will state in again for future debates so I don't hear your jibbering that you don't grasp it.

Upper and lower limits are quanitifed measurements. If we see something happens such as the Death Star blow up a planet...we find how much energy in need to do that. We use that as the low end. We also include any and all other examples of such firepower and if they exceed the original they become an upper end, if they are below they become the new low end. From there we can have a scale of what said quanitifed reaction can do.

What does that all mean? We take a observation, quantify it, and then take other observations and quantify them. Then we have a range of what this can do. We take into account for anolmolies for not being the norm, but nonetheless observe them and reference them for future sources. They are not the norm but they are evidence. This is what is meant for Low to high end.

You provided none of this and jabbered about Joules we've seen Jedi's easily take and provided not ONE veolcity or acceleration for that matter, so in the end...I have nothing to debate unless I WANT to do your own homework, thus it's not really a debate since you are failing your BURDEN of PROOF.

Thread locked because it's four pages of repeat parroting with handwaving and little to no math, and lack of quantified proof in general.