Trek-Verse Alliance vs Rebel Alliance

[Rommie2006]

Nice of you to say that, thanks. I do admit when I have made a mistake in numbers. Anyway since when did I "insist that there's some kind of magic transformation or accrual of ships"? I only said that the New Republic cannot be equal to the Rebel Alliance because their fleet size is significantly larger than the Rebel Alliance. Perhaps you thought I implied it?

Right. But when, precisely, did this increase in fleet size occur? The Rebel Alliance basically dubbed themselves the New Republic after the Battle of Endor - but there was no sudden acquisition or production of ships. Hence, my assertion that they are, at that point in time, functionally the same.

It is only a few posts back that you indicated you were thinking of the NJO timeframe, where the New Republic has had more than a decade (almost two) to expand and develop new fighters, new spaceframes, and so on.

Look I wont (and I never did) contest the fact that the New Republic(immediately following Endor) and the Rebel Alliance are almost equal in military strength.

Fair enough.

I am contesting your claim (quote 1st post: When folks say, oh, I was talking about the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic ... what, pray tell, did you think the New Republic was? It's the Rebel Alliance, pinheads. ), which I take it as the entire span of the reign of the New Republic since you *did not* mention which timeframe.

So the point of contention has been:

A - When did the Rebel Alliance become the New Republic.
B - At what point did the New Republic accomplish significant production or other acquisition (capture, etc.) of capital ships?

As I kept mentioning the Battle of Endor, it would seem clear about which time frame I was talking about, but I can understand your not seeing it in quite the same way. However, for years after the Battle of Endor (as measured by watching things like the growing Organa-Solo clan), the New Republic did not significantly advance in ship strength.

So it may be a semantic issue, but the overall strength of 'New Republic' for several years following the Battle of Endor was not significantly greater than that of the 'Rebel Alliance.'

So if you are going to continue to assert that the New Republic (in NJO and beyond) is equal to Rebel Alliance, I say bullshit. If all the while you have been yakking about New Republic(after Endor) = Rebel Alliance, then you get no argument from me.

The former is false, the latter is true. We're done. Now, let's discuss strategies that would make it possible for Trek to go out fighting, perhaps?

Can we assume that the Rebels will engage in the same guerilla tactics used against the Empire, that is, hit-and-run, covert missions of infiltration and sabotage? How would Section 31 or the Obsidian Order stack up to that? Would Leia prove as resistant to a Klingon Mind Sifter as to an Imperial Interrogation Droid?

What worlds would you consider prime targets, and how would you defend them?

Given the seeming disparity in Federation weapon output vs. Republic shield/defensive capabilities, how do you approach combat to negate or minimize this factor?

Or, as some have suggested, is it a foregone conclusion and the Republic wins, regardless?

Alright, this New Republic vs Rebel Alliance crap isnt getting anything productive out of it. As for the two pts of contention, I admit its rather subjective, but for me I'll put it as:
A - When did the Rebel Alliance become the New Republic? Technically immediately after Palpy died. But I consider them to *truly* become the New Republic much later in EU, around NJO period, where the Imperial Renmants were beaten back to a corner in the galaxy.
B - At what point did the New Republic accomplish significant production or other acquisition (capture, etc.) of capital ships? Presumably more than 5 years after ROTJ, cos if they did not acquire significant industrial capabilities, I doubt that the Rebel-Endor fleet would have managed to hold off the Yuuzhan Yong in NJO for that long.
Of course, to each his own opinion.

And regarding the Trek-Alliance vs Rebel Alliance(referring to pre-Endor fleet strength), and now knowing that I had erroneously added an extra zero to the Trek fleet strength, I think Trek is gonna have a hard time taking down the Rebels.
While I still believe Trek with their numerical superiority can wreck quite a havoc in the Rebel colonies(which I assume to be a handful), there's nothing really stopping the Rebels from doing a BDZ of every planet in the Trek Alliance, aka Scorch Earth policy. Trek would have too many planets to defend, and their ships would be stretched out far too thinly.

[Nick Lancaster]

Alright, this New Republic vs Rebel Alliance crap isnt getting anything productive out of it. As for the two pts of contention, I admit its rather subjective, but for me I'll put it as:
A - When did the Rebel Alliance become the New Republic? Technically immediately after Palpy died. But I consider them to *truly* become the New Republic much later in EU, around NJO period, where the Imperial Renmants were beaten back to a corner in the galaxy.
B - At what point did the New Republic accomplish significant production or other acquisition (capture, etc.) of capital ships? Presumably more than 5 years after ROTJ, cos if they did not acquire significant industrial capabilities, I doubt that the Rebel-Endor fleet would have managed to hold off the Yuuzhan Yong in NJO for that long.
Of course, to each his own opinion.

Bargained well and done. Works for me.

While I still believe Trek with their numerical superiority can wreck quite a havoc in the Rebel colonies(which I assume to be a handful), there's nothing really stopping the Rebels from doing a BDZ of every planet in the Trek Alliance, aka Scorch Earth policy. Trek would have too many planets to defend, and their ships would be stretched out far too thinly.

Are the Rebels likely to engage in such policies? I'm sure the Empire tried to portray them as terrorists, and perhaps even did the old switcheroo - Rebels blow up a weapons plant, the Empire reports the Rebels blew up a medical facility.

If the Rebels resort to guerilla tactics, such as infiltration/sabotage, how much of this kind of damage can the Federation shrug off? Certainly, sabotaging Utopia Planitia would be an effort on a par with destroying the shield around Death Star II, unless the Rebels had the patience to infiltrate private industry or Starfleet, get someone on the inside and work the problem that way.

Can even a reduced Federation fleet adequately handle search-and-destroy missions? Interdiction would seem to be useless with hyperdrive.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Hmm, I just realised that if we include non-deific one-show wonders, then the Rebel Alliance is doomed.
Druoda Warheads(rated in the low petaton range at sb.com) + Krenim temporal shielding(immune to all conventional weapons) + Voth Transwarp + Borg/Dominion industrial capacity to build these + Reman Scimitar-style perfect cloaking = a horrible wankship to make baby jesus cry and Admiral Ackbar go "Holy shit!".
Really, if one-show wonders are included in this alliance, and it really is an alliance, where everyone shares tech (and in trek, it appears that any technology can mix with any others given a few hours or days) then even the Empire would get a bloody nose.

Of course, an alliance like this is as possible as Osama, Pat Robertson and an unladen swallo immediately turning to Mormonism as they lick the skin of an overripe peach in unison.

[Nick Lancaster]

Invite all your imaginary friends.

My imaginary friends will eat them for lunch. Mara Jade will assassinate all of the leaders of this Federation 'alliance', Kyp Duron will take a short vacation on the Dark Side and visit a few worlds with the Sun Crusher, and so on.

I submit that the only thing the Borg build are Borg ships. They would not build, for example, a Federation starship because of its incompatibility with the Borg. Period. They also have no reason to negotiate.

Similar strictures apply to the Dominion, who would only participate in this venture if offered significant gains or concessions from the Federation.

It's very clear what we have to do with the Rebels! Put 'em on the Holodeck and confuse the hell out of them!

[Rommie2006]

Alright, this New Republic vs Rebel Alliance crap isnt getting anything productive out of it. As for the two pts of contention, I admit its rather subjective, but for me I'll put it as:
A - When did the Rebel Alliance become the New Republic? Technically immediately after Palpy died. But I consider them to *truly* become the New Republic much later in EU, around NJO period, where the Imperial Renmants were beaten back to a corner in the galaxy.
B - At what point did the New Republic accomplish significant production or other acquisition (capture, etc.) of capital ships? Presumably more than 5 years after ROTJ, cos if they did not acquire significant industrial capabilities, I doubt that the Rebel-Endor fleet would have managed to hold off the Yuuzhan Yong in NJO for that long.
Of course, to each his own opinion.

Bargained well and done. Works for me.

While I still believe Trek with their numerical superiority can wreck quite a havoc in the Rebel colonies(which I assume to be a handful), there's nothing really stopping the Rebels from doing a BDZ of every planet in the Trek Alliance, aka Scorch Earth policy. Trek would have too many planets to defend, and their ships would be stretched out far too thinly.

Are the Rebels likely to engage in such policies? I'm sure the Empire tried to portray them as terrorists, and perhaps even did the old switcheroo - Rebels blow up a weapons plant, the Empire reports the Rebels blew up a medical facility.

If the Rebels resort to guerilla tactics, such as infiltration/sabotage, how much of this kind of damage can the Federation shrug off? Certainly, sabotaging Utopia Planitia would be an effort on a par with destroying the shield around Death Star II, unless the Rebels had the patience to infiltrate private industry or Starfleet, get someone on the inside and work the problem that way.

Can even a reduced Federation fleet adequately handle search-and-destroy missions? Interdiction would seem to be useless with hyperdrive.

If the Rebels don't start a BDZ campaign, I believe it will lead into a stalemate. The Trek Alliance have 3/4 a galaxy full of resources on their side(although admittedly not fully ulitilised), vs the Rebels handful of planetary systems.
The Rebels is likely to have only a few ship production facilities, while the Trek Alliance has lots. In order to cripple the Trek industrial capability, it's gonna require alot of sabotage work, spreading their forces really thin. To disable Rebels production, a well placed plan by Trek to distract the Rebels fleet and drawn them into another "important" battle, while hitting the Rebels major ship production facilities (i.e. like what the Feds did to Dominion during the attack on DS9), will take the Rebels off balance.
So if the Rebels dont BDZ, they most prob will retreat to an unknown system, say the unexplored parts of Beta Quadrant. Then it will be a race to see if Trek can uncover the hidden rebel base in time before the rebels can rebuild their Fleet. Then there is a question if Trek can keep up with the fleeing Rebels. It may be a neverending stalemate.

[Nick Lancaster]

If the Rebels don't start a BDZ campaign, I believe it will lead into a stalemate. The Trek Alliance have 3/4 a galaxy full of resources on their side(although admittedly not fully ulitilised), vs the Rebels handful of planetary systems.
The Rebels is likely to have only a few ship production facilities, while the Trek Alliance has lots. In order to cripple the Trek industrial capability, it's gonna require alot of sabotage work, spreading their forces really thin. To disable Rebels production, a well placed plan by Trek to distract the Rebels fleet and drawn them into another "important" battle, while hitting the Rebels major ship production facilities (i.e. like what the Feds did to Dominion during the attack on DS9), will take the Rebels off balance.
So if the Rebels dont BDZ, they most prob will retreat to an unknown system, say the unexplored parts of Beta Quadrant. Then it will be a race to see if Trek can uncover the hidden rebel base in time before the rebels can rebuild their Fleet. Then there is a question if Trek can keep up with the fleeing Rebels. It may be a neverending stalemate.

A factor that exists in the Star Wars universe that does not necessarily exist in the Versus scenario, is the Empire's heavy-handedness indirectly recruiting for the Rebels.

If the Rebels cannot proselytize/convert/recruit, their headcount is greatly limited. However, given a suitable event (destruction of a Rebel facility), would they even have a chance? We don't know that much about the media in the Federation, but with commercial holodeck technology, I could see people being far more suspicious of 'evidence' on tape.

Still, there are some 'have nots' in the Trek universe; the Bajorans suffered under the heel of the Cardassians, and this inequity has not entirely been addressed. Similarly, I gather there are such distinctions in the Klingon and Romulan Empires. Unfortunately, good luck infiltrating the Romulan culture - even with the proper cosmetic surgery, we were shown how inherently suspicious your average Romulan is.

[Lord Pounder]

Rommie have you read much EU. Straight after the Battle of Endor Mon Mothma broadcast her Decleration of a New Republic. But if you want to be pissy at most the Alliance didn't become the NR untill Courscant fell. By this time the Rebellion controled fully 1/4 of the GE and included ships such as the Mon Remonda, a cruiser that could match the SSD Iron Fist.

[Striderteen]

The Rebels is likely to have only a few ship production facilities, while the Trek Alliance has lots. In order to cripple the Trek industrial capability, it's gonna require alot of sabotage work, spreading their forces really thin. To disable Rebels production, a well placed plan by Trek to distract the Rebels fleet and drawn them into another "important" battle, while hitting the Rebels major ship production facilities (i.e. like what the Feds did to Dominion during the attack on DS9), will take the Rebels off balance.

Except, of course, that even light planetary defenses could easily hold off the entire Federation Starfleet. Planetary weapons installations are *far* more powerful than starship weapons; a single planetary turbolaser mount can duel with a Star Destroyer and usually win.

Given that the biggest and most powerful starships in Trek are only equal in power to the smallest and least powerful starships in Wars, Starfleet wouldn't amount to much more than a particularly large and well-organized band of space pirates.