In Borg/Empire debate at Space Battles

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2006-11-05 03:39am

Hi everyone, sorry to bother you all, but I'm in debate with a new guy over at space battles. Rough scenario is another Borg Vs. Empire debate, but this time the Borg managed to assimilate 8472 and have now been unleashed upon the GE.

I've been refuting his arguments, but he's a rather stubborn fellow. If it's not too much to ask, is does anyone know of a surefire way to crush his arguments, as I am getting tired of having to point out that the Borg don't have KE shields and that ISDs would blast the crap out of Cubes.

Thread's here.

http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthrea ... ost2911805

Many thanks to anyone who can help.

Silver Jedi · Post by **Silver Jedi** » 2006-11-05 04:08am

I didn't read the entire thread (I gave up in disgust after 3 pages), but from the last several posts, your arguments seem pretty solid, you seem to have hit all the major points.

Keep driving home the massive firepower disparity (and keep an eye out for the inevitable no-limits fallacy that they always associate with adaptation). I'd also ask for some kind of proof that transwarp coils are on par with hyperdrive, and when he fails to produce it, point out the obvious difficulty of mounting an invasion when the defending navy is orders of magnitude faster than you.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-11-05 08:08am

Wow, Painrack spanked him there with the Sun Tzu bit.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-11-05 08:21am

I almost died laughing when I saw this quote on the first page:

Mith wrote:Also, the borg may eventually adapt to its [the suncrusher's] armor.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2006-11-05 09:58am

Surlethe wrote:I almost died laughing when I saw this quote on the first page:
Mith wrote:Also, the borg may eventually adapt to its [the suncrusher's] armor.

You were not the only one believe me... unfortunately, in my case, it rapidly devolved into smacking the palm of my hand into my forehead when I realized he was serious.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2006-11-05 12:48pm

Hey, out of curiosity, one of the guys is claiming that the Borg can accomplish Warp Beaming and snatch away tech like that. Has such a thing ever been performed by the Borg?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-11-05 01:00pm

Aratech wrote:Hey, out of curiosity, one of the guys is claiming that the Borg can accomplish Warp Beaming and snatch away tech like that. Has such a thing ever been performed by the Borg?

General strategy tip: when someone makes a claim like that, demand quotes and episode names. Don't let them get away with tossing out claims left and right and expecting you to do the legwork of disproving them, when the burden of proof is on them.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-11-05 01:07pm

Surlethe wrote:I almost died laughing when I saw this quote on the first page:
Mith wrote:Also, the borg may eventually adapt to its [the suncrusher's] armor.

Mith!? Oh Jesus H, show the other SBers the fuckhole's Parting Shots thread. There's also some right nasty hate speech by him buried in HoS too.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2006-11-05 01:10pm

Mith!? Oh Jesus H, show the other SBers the fuckhole's Parting Shots thread. There's also some right nasty hate speech by him buried in HoS too.

Hmmm, need to check that out. I've sparred with him a few times over the past several weeks, and my, the Borg wanking. From beliefs that the Borg have KE shields to his claim that the Borg would be capable of defeating an IoM Retribution class ship...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-11-05 01:15pm

Borg-wankers are a sorry bunch of assholes. They know nothing about science and technology, which is why they treat technological capabilities as if they were D&D magic spells rather than something that requires a mechanism and must have limits.

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » 2006-11-05 03:32pm

I'd advise against taking Mith too seriously. He seems to throw up walls of ignorance and usually resorts to a lot of logic fallacies in his debates. It's quite clear that ST vs. SW debates is more of a personal thing for him, he doesn't seem able to give in under any circumstance.

I can guarantee you that he will not back down, no matter what you say or how much you prove him wrong. There esentially is no use in debating with him.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2006-11-05 04:12pm

l33telboi wrote:I'd advise against taking Mith too seriously. He seems to throw up walls of ignorance and usually resorts to a lot of logic fallacies in his debates. It's quite clear that ST vs. SW debates is more of a personal thing for him, he doesn't seem able to give in under any circumstance.

I can guarantee you that he will not back down, no matter what you say or how much you prove him wrong. There esentially is no use in debating with him.

Agreed; look at how long "Drow vs. US Army" went before it finally died.

Just stick with your points, demand evidence for any claims, and keep hammering away. Many times it just becomes a game of patience.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-11-05 06:22pm

Balrog wrote:Agreed; look at how long "Drow vs. US Army" went before it finally died.

To be entirely fair, I'm not optimistic about the ability of the any extant army to run a war effectively in the enviromental conditions one's talking about there.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-11-05 07:56pm

How do you adapt to armor?

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » 2006-11-05 07:57pm

OmegaGuy wrote:How do you adapt to armor?

Find easier or more effective ways to overcome it?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-11-05 07:58pm

OmegaGuy wrote:How do you adapt to armor?

The same way real-life militaries do; by building better weapons. The conceit of the Borg-wanker is the idiotic notion that there is some kind of magic "adapt" power that the Borg use and which can overcome anything.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2006-11-05 08:05pm

Adapting to armor is simple, like they said.

I'm facing a guy wearing body armor. My pistol does nothing to him. I adapt to his body armor by either figuring out where the weak points are (the areas covered by less armor) or by breaking out a shotgun or assault rifle.

What Mith fails to realize is that the Borg adapt by frequency matching, and are thus able to technobable away a greater amount of energy than they could otherwise. However, any energy not removed by said adaptation still has to go somewhere, namely the Cube or the Drone on the business end of the weapon.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-11-05 08:08pm

Mith is a child. He has the scientific knowledge of my dog. Honestly, there's a reason why I become very abrasive about precocious scientific ignoramuses who try to debate issues related to science. It's arrogant of them to even try.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-11-05 08:11pm

Darth Wong wrote:
OmegaGuy wrote:How do you adapt to armor?
The same way real-life militaries do; by building better weapons. The conceit of the Borg-wanker is the idiotic notion that there is some kind of magic "adapt" power that the Borg use and which can overcome anything.

You obviously have not watched enough Star Trek warsie. At VOY Endgame 38:45, the Borg Queen says "we will adapt" when Janeway mentions the armor technology. Later at 45:57, a sphere fires on Voyager and does significant damage where three Borg cubes at 24:36 did nothing, bringing down Voyager's armor to 54%, meaning the Borg successfully adapted. Now have less anal sex and memorize dialogue like me, and you can be a retard too.

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » 2006-11-05 08:15pm

brianeyci wrote:You obviously have not watched enough Star Trek warsie. At VOY Endgame 38:45, the Borg Queen says "we will adapt" when Janeway mentions the armor technology. Later at 45:57, a sphere fires on Voyager and does significant damage where three Borg cubes at 24:36 did nothing, bringing down Voyager's armor to 54%, meaning the Borg successfully adapted. Now have less anal sex and memorize dialogue like me, and you can be a retard too.

Well it is believed that most Trek weapons work through some Chain Reaction method, or NDF as the TM called it. So adapting to armor might just be a way to get your weapons to chain react better on enemy armor.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-11-05 08:17pm

l33telboi wrote:Well it is believed that most Trek weapons work through some Chain Reaction method, or NDF as the TM called it. So adapting to armor might just be a way to get your weapons to chain react better on enemy armor.

The only way I know of having "weapons chain react better on enemy armor" is to up the juice.

Don't be fooled by the technobabble man. If ENT was good for anything it was the 10 MJ phaser shot bringing down a Borg, no frequency bullshit.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2006-11-05 08:19pm

Slightly off topic here, but how were they able to slip the Borg into ENT without fecking up the continuity really, really badly?

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » 2006-11-05 08:21pm

Aratech wrote:Slightly off topic here, but how were they able to slip the Borg into ENT without fecking up the continuity really, really badly?

The sphere from FC landed in the antarctic. Apparently.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2006-11-05 08:39pm

l33telboi wrote:
Aratech wrote:Slightly off topic here, but how were they able to slip the Borg into ENT without fecking up the continuity really, really badly?
The sphere from FC landed in the antarctic. Apparently.

How did it get there when it was orbiting over Montana? That just silly. If they found a chunkin say greenland I might buy it better but on a different hemisphere? I find it hard to believe.

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2006-11-05 08:44pm

Plus didn't they blow it, as Mr. Wong would say, 'into very small non working parts?'