The impact (or lack thereof) of warp drive in the GFFA

[ArcturusMengsk]

I've done a search, and nothing on this topic popped up on the last thirteen pages or so. If it's been done before, lock away.

We all know how big an impact hyperdrive would have in the Alpha Quadrant (and beyond). It would open up previously inaccessible portions of the galaxy to pretty much any power with access to hyperdrive-capable starships and would probably change the fact of local astro-politics forever.

Conversely, what would happen if, through trade or conquest, warp drive became known to the powers of the GFFA? Would it have any advantages that might make up for its lack of speed? Would it become standard feature on ships throughout the galaxy, or would it be ignored as a piece of inferior and outdated technology?

I had thought that perhaps it might find use among smugglers and other criminal organizations who might be interested in an alternative form of superluminal transportation. Since it's likely the Empire would never adopt the technology for its warships, it might also not bother to develop effective methods of detecting it (at first, of course). Or it might be equipped to economy starships for those too poor to afford hyperspace-capable vessels.

Any other thought?

[Stark]

Given that hyperspace capable craft are so trivially cheap, even out on the Rim, it seems unlikely complex and dangerous warp drives could be undercutting them, particularly at the cripplingly slow travel speed. The size of drive elements required make it too unwieldy for backups, and it's vulnerable to the same jamming as hyperdrives. ST shows that the effects of inbound warp is detectable well in advance of the ship (far longer detection ranges for inbound compared to outbound ships).

[ArcturusMengsk]

You make a very valid point about the instability of warp generation. Can you see it being applied at all in the GFFA?

[Starglider]

The only application I could think of for warp in SW is warp-driven antiship missiles; they can potentially get closer to the target before dropping out of FTL than hyperdrive can. This is a dubious and extremely marginal application though.

it seems unlikely complex and dangerous warp drives could be undercutting them,

AFAIK the warp drives themselves aren't particularly dangerous. Federation antimatter reactors are, but there's no need for warp drives to be powered by those. I don't see how the mechanics of the warp drive itself are particularly complicated; the nacelles are just rows of coils that get plasma squirted onto them at regular intervals. This may actually be rather less complicated than a hyperdrive, though it is bulky and 'warp field dynamics' seem to impose a constraint on hull forms that doesn't seem to exist with hyperdrives.

it's vulnerable to the same jamming as hyperdrives.

Evidence that interdictors work on warp drives?

[Stark]

That's a good point - with 'complex' I was referring to the relatively large drive elements required, but warp /= M/AM with monkeys inside. The role of hullform and nacelle orientation seems to me to make it even more unattractive than the size and low speed.

In a DS9 ep 'anti gravitons beams' are used to prevent warp field creation: I take this to mean external forces (like interdictors) can prevent warp field formation.

[Starglider]

The role of hullform and nacelle orientation seems to me to make it even more unattractive than the size and low speed.

Yes; even if SW tech can make warp coils very cheaply, they'd still be cost-ineffective because of the sheer mass you have to devote to them (including structural bracing to support the nacelles) and the cost of building the more complex hull shape. SW tech might be able to make smalelr coils with a much higher power density than Fed science - that's pure speculation though.

In a DS9 ep 'anti gravitons beams' are used to prevent warp field creation: I take this to mean external forces (like interdictors) can prevent warp field formation.

Certainly they can; we've seen plenty of natural phenomena do it as well. But AFAIK there's no evidence that imperial inderdiction tech can; it works by simulating the presence of a gravity well, and The Voyage Home demonstrates that Trek warp drives work just fine from within a few kilometres of an earth-sized body.

That said even if current deployed interdictor technology is ineffective against warp drives, I'd expect that if the Dominion can use technobabble to disable them, the scientists of the vastly more advanced Galactic Empire would work out how do it pretty quickly after examining the technology in operation.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Actually the shut down of the Hyperdrive is a safety precaution of the Navicomputer, to keep the ship from slamming into a planet. It's still just a matter of turning it off, and I have a feeling that civilian Starships aren't legal without them.

[Noble Ire]

Actually the shut down of the Hyperdrive is a safety precaution of the Navicomputer, to keep the ship from slamming into a planet. It's still just a matter of turning it off, and I have a feeling that civilian Starships aren't legal without them.

The EU is not consistent on this point. I believe that earlier sources indicated that interdiction fields functioned in the way you describe, but latter texts state that the fields actually produce some kind of artifical mass shadow that pulls ships from Hyperspace rather than simply destroying them. During the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, the New Republic even used an interdictor's gravity wells to increase the gravitational forces exerted by a planet on a nearby Yuuzhan Vong warship in realspace.

Either there are two varieties of interdiction technology, or the newer EU sources with actual gravity fields contradict the older ones.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I don't see much of a contradiction, the Star Wars RPG Revised Core Rulebook describes a mass shadow as a planets gravitational effect on hyperspace, thus the term Mass Shadow. Thus the Interdictors projecting enough of a gravity well to trip the killswitch isn't surprising.

[Noble Ire]

I don't see much of a contradiction, the Star Wars RPG Revised Core Rulebook describes a mass shadow as a planets gravitational effect on hyperspace, thus the term Mass Shadow. Thus the Interdictors projecting enough of a gravity well to trip the killswitch isn't surprising.

Considering the situations in which interdiction technology has been used in the EU, more often than not against military vessels which fully expected the presence of interdiction craft, I think it is far more likely that there is some physical phenomenon that actually pulls ships from Hyperspace, as opposed to this killswitch. Surely, some technician at some point would have figured out a way to disable the fail-safe on vessels that knew they were likely to be interdicted, thus rendering the tactic useless against all but civilian vessels. The technology had been around for thousands of years by the time of the Empire, after all. I think its far more likely that the artifical mass shadow literally pulls the transiting vessel into realspace.

[Patrick Degan]

In the time of the Republic, they were able to build detachable hyperdrive sleds for short-range snub fighters and later hyperdrives small enough to mount in slightly larger fighter craft. They already had the prototypes for such craft in that time and the smallest freighter craft could mount a hyperdrive (see Slave I). Even if these units are nowhere near up to the standard of a freighter or warship's hyperdrive system, they still vastly outperform any warp drive. Why would anybody opt for a massively inferior system for galaxy travel?

[TC Pilot]

Considering the situations in which interdiction technology has been used in the EU, more often than not against military vessels which fully expected the presence of interdiction craft, I think it is far more likely that there is some physical phenomenon that actually pulls ships from Hyperspace, as opposed to this killswitch. Surely, some technician at some point would have figured out a way to disable the fail-safe on vessels that knew they were likely to be interdicted, thus rendering the tactic useless against all but civilian vessels. The technology had been around for thousands of years by the time of the Empire, after all. I think its far more likely that the artifical mass shadow literally pulls the transiting vessel into realspace.

Well, one has the option of turning off that fail-safe (if it's there) and risking being obliterated by even slight astro-navigational errors.

I seem to recall Luke's X-Wing's hyperdrive in Heir to the Empire being destroyed by an Interdictor's mass shadow when he escaped one of Thrawn's traps. So it seems likely there is some physical force at work.

[Noble Ire]

Well, one has the option of turning off that fail-safe (if it's there) and risking being obliterated by even slight astro-navigational errors.

Still, there are circumstances where that risk would be acceptable. It would be fairly ineffective to blockade a star system with interdiction fields if all one's enemy had to do to escape was turn off their ship's fail-safes and roll a die, so to speak.

[Howedar]

In the time of the Republic, they were able to build detachable hyperdrive sleds for short-range snub fighters and later hyperdrives small enough to mount in slightly larger fighter craft. They already had the prototypes for such craft in that time and the smallest freighter craft could mount a hyperdrive (see Slave I). Even if these units are nowhere near up to the standard of a freighter or warship's hyperdrive system, they still vastly outperform any warp drive. Why would anybody opt for a massively inferior system for galaxy travel?

Perhaps, if they could be built sufficiently cheaper than hyperdrive units, or if they consumed a hell of a lot less power, you might see them on some sort of in-system planet-to-planet shuttle.

This would be entirely due to price though, warp doesn't seem to have any intrinsic benefit over hyperdrive.

[Mr Bean]

Per my work back in there day on the whole Mass shadow, here's the thing in a nut shell.


By the Centerpoint Station Triology and a few quotes from elsewhere, to hold a ship in hyperspace requires very little energy, you have to maintain something called the "hyperspace bubble" or alternatively the "warp bubble" it sometimes also referred to.

To maintain this bubble is the main "heavy lifting" job of a hyper drive in travel. However the short theory runs, the closer you get to large masses, the harder it is to maintain this "bubble" So when you pass to close into a mass shadow, it's not the fact it can damage you in hyperspace, that's NOT what kills you. What kills you is the hyperdrive being unable to maintain the bubble and burning out, just like any overworked engine. So your hyper drive melts down, per statements in the Solo trilogy one of two things happens when your hyperdrive burns out and the "bubble" bursts.


Either you...
1. Are forced back into real space with a now melted hyperdrive. If was a interdictor ship no worries your ok, if unable to enter hyperspace until you replace the drive. If it was a planet or a Star on the other hand.... well that squish sound you heard was gravity reasserting itself with a vegence.

2. Are ripped down to bare units of energy. This has some slight heath risks, as most people consider being ripped apart atom by atom to be rather lethal.


So that's the reason. It's not the mass shadow that kills you, its the burned out hyperdrive that kills you, either you renter normal space unable to enter hyperspace, or you get ripped apart.

Most of this information is taken from the Centerpoint books, where it's demonstrated that attempted to force a hyperdrive to take you through a sufficent strong mass shadow(This one being projected by the Centerpoint Station) will result in the the hyperdrive of the ships literately exploding as it burns out.

[Shroom Man 777]

So if you get Interdictored, maybe you could just kill your hyperdrive and use your warp drive, jump a little bit, and then resume hyperdriving when you got a safe distance?

[Ghost Rider]

So if you get Interdictored, maybe you could just kill your hyperdrive and use your warp drive, jump a little bit, and then resume hyperdriving when you got a safe distance?

The problems comes about, how far. Given the range of their sensors, you'd have to put serious distance. And the worst part that 90% people ignore, is you have to ADD another system to all of what is there. Basically this is saying your car comes with Gasoline and just in case Corn fuel. Disregard the whole needing another engine, the mass it takes, the space, the maintinence, and other such foiables...you can still drive when gas reaches empty.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, it could just be a nifty trick to escape the Interdictor fields. Sure, it adds another system, but when one devises a weapon (ala interdictor fields), another system must be fielded to counter it. And sensor range doesn't matter, all you need to do is go out of Interdictor range and then kill the warpdrive and resume your hyperdrive.

It depends if adding a warp drive is more trouble than its worth. And if interdictors are that prominent.

[Sarevok]

What if Interdictors also start mounting warp drives to chase down ships trying to escape via warp ? Does not that neutralize any advantage of having warp drives ?

[Starglider]

What if Interdictors also start mounting warp drives to chase down ships trying to escape via warp ? Does not that neutralize any advantage of having warp drives ?

The Interdictor already has enough problems squeezing in the inderdiction generators on top of all its normal equipment. However a warp drive is not necessary; all you need is a few of those warp-drive-disabler beams the Dominion use. I anticipate the primary difficulty faced by Imperial science in replicating these is working out what the fuck an 'anti-graviton' is.

[Mr Bean]

Warp drive is know, and was used in the GE. According to the Solo and Lando books it used to be the travel method of choice back in the day(Considering the Old Republics age, that's WAY back in the damn day) so presumably the Old Republic had a way of stopping warp ships back in the day, just as they stop Hyperspace ships.

[Dark Hellion]

Given the ability of Star Wars targeting to hit objects moving on regular predictable courses combined with the inability to make large turns with a ship at warp drive, the countermeasure might have been the old SW standard of blow the fuck outta them with big ass guns (one of my favorites). Hyperspace is too fast for this for the most part, and thus different interdiction measures need to be used.

This is of course just an off the top of the head rationalization, so it might not be that good.

[Big Phil]

Warp drive is know, and was used in the GE. According to the Solo and Lando books it used to be the travel method of choice back in the day(Considering the Old Republics age, that's WAY back in the damn day) so presumably the Old Republic had a way of stopping warp ships back in the day, just as they stop Hyperspace ships.

Source? I don't recall the Star Wars universe ever using Star Trek style warp drive.

[Ghost Rider]

Warp drive is know, and was used in the GE. According to the Solo and Lando books it used to be the travel method of choice back in the day(Considering the Old Republics age, that's WAY back in the damn day) so presumably the Old Republic had a way of stopping warp ships back in the day, just as they stop Hyperspace ships.

Source? I don't recall the Star Wars universe ever using Star Trek style warp drive.

Actually he does state the source. But for more specific, the Daley books do make mention of it being a type of travel involving subspace and warping space.

[Big Phil]

Warp drive is know, and was used in the GE. According to the Solo and Lando books it used to be the travel method of choice back in the day(Considering the Old Republics age, that's WAY back in the damn day) so presumably the Old Republic had a way of stopping warp ships back in the day, just as they stop Hyperspace ships.

Source? I don't recall the Star Wars universe ever using Star Trek style warp drive.

Actually he does state the source. But for more specific, the Daley books do make mention of it being a type of travel involving subspace and warping space.

I should probably be more clear - which books, and if he knows, where within the books? I've read both sets of old Lando and Solo books (back around 1980) and I don't recall this. I just wanted to go back and reread the pages if he knows where they are.