Federation/Empire fleet battle: Not smooth Imp sailing?

[Vendetta]

It's fairly obvious that the standup fighting capacity of Imperial vessels outmatches those of the Federation by rather a lot. But the Feds have one trick up their sleeves, which could leave the Empire with a severely bloody nose in fleet combat, Standoff capability.

Photon torpedoes have been seen to fire at very long ranges, many thousands of kilometres, but only rarely. Probable cause? Combat sensors aren't up to the task.

Can this deficiency be remedied? Of course it can, by borrowing from the annals of one Rogue Squadron. (X-wing book 4, The Bacta War).

Torpedoes need a good close sensor reading to be used effectively, but there's nothing to say that every ship has to take it's OWN sensor readings.. A few smaller ships, especially of the Defiant class, could easily relay target information. Can the Federation do something like that? I suspect so, See Peak Performance, where the crew of one ship hack into the computer of another, to produce a false sensor image. If a malicious link of that proportion is possible, it should be easy to extrapolate that into a computer link which provides accurate target data for the heavier vessels.

By using multiple concentrated torpedo barrages at standoff range, and the superior combat manoueuverabilty of the Warp drive to skip about attacking from multiple angles (after all, each firing ship need only stay at sub-warp for long enough to recieve current target data from it's asssigned spotter and fire a salvo, which could be reloaded as it warped to it's next firing spot), the Federation could actually cause outrageous casualties to an Imperial fleet...

It wouldn't work forever, it wouldn't save them in a war, but it could leave an overconfident Imperial commander in severe disgrace...

[TheDarkling]

What you purpose seems possible but it seems that no amount of torps (or at least a Huge number) could destroy an ISD.

I have been told this but I have yet to see any math on the subject.

[Typhonis 1]

Acording to Mr.Wong a Federation Photon Torpeode from TNG has an effective maximun yield of 64 megatons,a quantum torpedo has a yield of 128 megatons .However this energy is vented in all directions so you need to halve the number.As was seen in ROTJ Star Destroyers were taking puondings from weapons simmular to there own for at least 20 minutes before shied failure and hulls exploding,I remeber seeing at leat one star destroyer blow up.The Federation cant match those firepower figures .

[Vendetta]

What you purpose seems possible but it seems that no amount of torps (or at least a Huge number) could destroy an ISD.

I have been told this but I have yet to see any math on the subject.

Well most Federation ships can fire 2-3 torpedoes in a spread (some more, like the Sov, with a fire rate of five quantorps in a one second burst)

Even if those torps are only effective with 1/4 of their maximum yield, at 3 torps a ship (and discounting quantorps), it would still only take 20 ships to loose a 1 gigaton salvo, which can be repeated every few seconds (given time to reload and reacquire the spotter's data link.

It's a poor attacker/target rate, but since the Fed ships can jump around with Warp drives, they themselves will be very hard to engage, and can maintain that kind of engagement ratio.

It won't be EASY to take down Star Destroyers like that, but it will be a damn sight better than closing to phaser range and getting the shit torn out of you.

[Patrick Ogaard]

I believe the good Darth Wong has some appropirate stats/calculations on the site here regarding how well photon torpedoes would likely work against Imperial fighters and capital ships. If I'm remembering the evaluation correctly, it would take a lot of torps to take out a capital ship like an ISD, but fighters would certainly be vulnerable, especially to proximity blasts.

One of the big problems that I see with firing shoals of torpedoes is that it would likely prove a one-time-only tactic: after the first attack strips away one star destroyer's fighter cover it would almost certainly become standard practice to engage incoming long range torpedo attacks with flak bursts. Photon torpedoes are not hugely maneuverable, and that combined with FTL sensors would allow Imperial gunners to bracket a shoal of torpedoes with turbolaser flak bursts.

Even firing the torpedoes at warp, and thus providing limited FTL capacity to the torpedoes, would not necessarily work: coordination of the firing would be difficult and likely to result in clean misses, while FTL torpedo waves coming in would still be vulnerable to flak bursts placed where the FTL sensors say the torpedoes will be when the flak bursts go off.

A realistic option to prolong the Federation's agony would be to go for kamikaze attacks with (computer-controlled?) warp shuttles carrying heavy bombloads, combined with quickly kitbashed conversions of Federation capital ships.

The capital ship conversion would work as follows: assuming there is even enough time to do it, fit standard capital ships with extra fusion generators and fill the majority of the shuttle bay, and cargo spaces with hull access, with photon torpedo launchers powered by the fusion generators and with ridiculous numbers of photon torpedoes.

The idea is to turn a standard capital ship into a torpedo launch facility capable of quickly launching so many torpedoes that defensive flak bursts and fighter interceptions can not completely stop the attack. An example would be a Galaxy-class cruiser modified to have its three heavy launchers arranged so that all of them can fire forward. Essentially, one would have to strip out most of the family spaces in the saucer section and mount two of the launchers to fire forward from the saucer. That modification itself would allow for a simultaneous volley of 30 torpedoes. Additional conventional launchers capable of rapid-firing individual torpedoes, the launcher design apparently mass-produced by Starfleet, could further boost the effective weight of fire. Convert the main shuttle hangar to a hangar for heavily armed runabouts and suicide/decoy shuttlecraft and you would have something at least remotely capable of presenting a credible threat to a small Imperial capital ship. The standard torpedo load of such a heavy torpedo cruiser would have to be on the order of several thousand torpedoes with maximum explosive yields. Ideally, the cruiser would be fitted with several more heavy launchers than the three organic to such a ship. For that matter, one could even arrange several decks of the saucer section with an arrangement of rows of standard torpedo launchers reminiscent of the gun decks of old sailing men-o-war.

It is the only realistic, achievable countermeasure the Federation forces would have, one not relying on bizarre "perfect shot" scenarios. Mass producing torpedo launchers and mounting entire banks of them in the largely gutted hulls of already-produced cruisers would be more realistic than, say, producing a fleet of thousands of Defiant-type ships in response to an Imperial threat.

[Vendetta]

Even firing the torpedoes at warp, and thus providing limited FTL capacity to the torpedoes, would not necessarily work: coordination of the firing would be difficult and likely to result in clean misses, while FTL torpedo waves coming in would still be vulnerable to flak bursts placed where the FTL sensors say the torpedoes will be when the flak bursts go off.

Torpedoes are generally only used at warp whern the target's at warp.

I propose a similar tactic to the Picard manoeuvre, firing a salvo, using mid range warp to move to another sublight location, and firing another.

Not only does this make the Fed ships themselves harder to pin down and engage, but it also limits the effectiveness of flak fire, as even a Star Destroyer can't be firing everywhere at once.

one not relying on bizarre "perfect shot" scenarios.

And god knows there are enough of those around... (I'm just playing devil's advocate, I usually argue the Empire's side, I just get fed up of people who only argue Fed technology, and refuse to accept the need for tactics)

[Mr Bean]

Acutal the Imp SD MK II or ISD II as some call it IS desgined to fire everywhere at once (Except under it seems only a few Heavys are down there mostly Light anti-figher varity)
And shooting from behind?
Most likely destoryed in the conctrated thrust wash those big things put out

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

There's ECM that may stop the ship from getting go target info, jamming to mess up communications, HORRIBLE photon torpedo accuracy (missed a 650+ meter ship that wasn't moving in WOTW at less then 10 km multiple times), the destruction of the scout, and of course, the ship jumping away if it starts taking heavy damage, which is a big Imperial advantage. The abbility to pick and chose their fights.

[Vendetta]

There's ECM that may stop the ship from getting go target info, jamming to mess up communications, HORRIBLE photon torpedo accuracy (missed a 650+ meter ship that wasn't moving in WOTW at less then 10 km multiple times), the destruction of the scout, and of course, the ship jumping away if it starts taking heavy damage, which is a big Imperial advantage. The abbility to pick and chose their fights.

The biggest problem is the destruction of the spotter, which is why it's a role designed for Defiants and such smaller classes, which would be capable of defending themself from fighter attack, and also able to minimise damage from heavy fire by cheekily presenting a minimal profile, and bouncing around with warp occasionally.

Imperial ships could jump away when damaged, but then, retreating from your objective without accomplishing it is usually called failure, not somehting that will earn the Imp commander high acclaim. (I already mentioned that this won't win a war, just bloody a few noses along the way)..

[Captain Kruger]

Vendetta, you’ve come up with an interesting tactic for the Feds’ hopeless situation, but I just don’t see how it can be enough. The firepower deficit is just too insanely large. The yield of just one heavy turbolaser shot on the Old Republic’s Acclamator-class transports is equivalent to 1,550 quantum torpedoes! Considering these ships are just troop transports half the size of an ISD, the ISD might have even heavier guns. Considering that ISD shields are capable of lasting the better part of half an hour against similar weapons, it could take hundreds of thousands of quantums just to do some moderate damage to a single vessel. Plus, all they have to do is blast the Defiants relaying the targeting signal. They’d die in a vapor cloud with just one single hit. I’m sure the Defiants could dodge at least some shots, but sooner or later they’d take that hit.

[Eleas]

"It's fairly obvious that the standup fighting capacity of Imperial vessels outmatches those of the Federation by rather a lot. But the Feds have one trick up their sleeves, which could leave the Empire with a severely bloody nose in fleet combat, Standoff capability."

<snip>

Sorry to say this, but this is just such a basic tactic that anyone but the Feds would be expecting it. ISDs even carried special TIE/fc vessels (which were spotter craft designed for this very thing).

So what would an Imperial commander do even if he were stupid enough to engage with a single capital ship? Two things, likely dictated by doctrine. One, jam the spotter ships. Two, while these ships distracted by surprise and turbulence, open fire with LTLs, forcing them to worry about their own skin. Third, set MTLs to flak burst in the path of the torpedoes. Given the long range, they should be able to do away with a majority of the torps.

In a way, firing at long range is a severe detriment. The Imps can destroy the majority of the volley and absorb the rest, and eventually, you will have run out of missiles.

[Eleas]

"Torpedoes are generally only used at warp whern the target's at warp.

I propose a similar tactic to the Picard manoeuvre, firing a salvo, using mid range warp to move to another sublight location, and firing another."

Which will deplete your available energy and slow down rate of fire. You will waste energy while the enemy would recharge their shields.

"Not only does this make the Fed ships themselves harder to pin down and engage, but it also limits the effectiveness of flak fire, as even a Star Destroyer can't be firing everywhere at once."

This sounds pretty far-fetched as a scenario. In order to get the effect you just described, you would need to have at least a dozen Starfleet torp carriers, jumping around in deep space. Why would a Star Destroyer Captain stop to engage them?

If you refer to the engagement being held inside a star system, I'd like to point out the historical trouble that Warp drives have in gravity wells. Short boosts like that would hardly be considered conductive to one's survival.

And even if all these things are explained, it still wouldn't deliver enough ordonance on the ship to cripple it.

"And god knows there are enough of those around... (I'm just playing devil's advocate, I usually argue the Empire's side, I just get fed up of people who only argue Fed technology, and refuse to accept the need for tactics)"

The problem is, I think, that some people want to debate the "pure" qualities of a starship, not how well it would actually perform in its assigned role.

[IDMR]

Photon torpedoes have been seen to fire at very long ranges, many thousands of kilometres, but only rarely. Probable cause? Combat sensors aren't up to the task.

This is reasonable, well, that and the time lag for the torpedo to travel the distance required.

Torpedoes need a good close sensor reading to be used effectively, but there's nothing to say that every ship has to take it's OWN sensor readings.. A few smaller ships, especially of the Defiant class, could easily relay target information. Can the Federation do something like that? I suspect so, See Peak Performance, where the crew of one ship hack into the computer of another, to produce a false sensor image. If a malicious link of that proportion is possible, it should be easy to extrapolate that into a computer link which provides accurate target data for the heavier vessels.

Not to be disparaging, do you know how data-chain and firing solutions relay work? You have to consider, amongst other things, time delay, jamming, complexity of the missile's own targeting and comm system, specialized equipment/ programme for the relaying platform, etc.

To say that photon torpedoes must be completely redesigned along with a line of sensor equipment for spotters and AWACS is probably not an over statement.

[Cpt_Frank]

The problem with the whole scenario is, that the Feds will have to make an ambush on a single ISD which is without companion.
The ISD would see the Fed fleet coming long before it's there, and no Imperial commander would take on a fleet alone with a single ship, even a fleet composed of pathetically weak fed vessels.
The Captain would have enough time to call for reinforcements
(such as Interdictors which prevent warp use).
Btw, when is there a single ISD alone in space?
If it's guarding an important facility, it's not alone.
And the second option, the feds stopping an Imperial ambush that way, is also unrealistic, since the Imps will attack with more than a single capship.
They will come from 4 directions, with Interdictors.

[Vendetta]

Not to be disparaging, do you know how data-chain and firing solutions relay work? You have to consider, amongst other things, time delay, jamming, complexity of the missile's own targeting and comm system, specialized equipment/ programme for the relaying platform, etc.

To say that photon torpedoes must be completely redesigned along with a line of sensor equipment for spotters and AWACS is probably not an over statement.

Similar computer links have been attempted in the past, providing an entire false set of sensor data. Providing REAL sensor data at the accuracy required by combat situations is not going to be a great step beyond that. It may tke some modification or recalibration or some such, but then you have to modify Federation equipment to make it do ANYTHING.

And yes, the torps themselves might have to be modified, but again, that's probably not a big deal, given that one was jury-rigged as a heatseeker in about fifteen minutes off the cuff in ST6.

[consequences]

What if the spotter ship is using phase cloak? Do we have any information on whether a ship under phase cloak would have sensor or communication restrictions that would prevent this from happening? What if you strap a phase cloak onto the unmanned suicide vessels that starfleet is likely to resort to at some point? It is still not going to win the war, given that the Empire can provide more star destoyers than the federation has ships, but could get an overconfident imperial admiral executed by lord Vader for losing a few battles.

[Cpt_Frank]

As for this phase cloak thing of yours:
Read the page about it!
-Phase cloaked ships can be detected by Imp sensors
-They can be affected by gravity (Immobilizer-418)
-You can kill a phase-cloaked ship's crew with nerve-gas torpedos
-They are likely to be useless against dense materials and shields
-They are, after all LOST TECH!

[His Divine Shadow]

What you purpose seems possible but it seems that no amount of torps (or at least a Huge number) could destroy an ISD.

I have been told this but I have yet to see any math on the subject.

Well most Federation ships can fire 2-3 torpedoes in a spread (some more, like the Sov, with a fire rate of five quantorps in a one second burst)

Even if those torps are only effective with 1/4 of their maximum yield, at 3 torps a ship (and discounting quantorps), it would still only take 20 ships to loose a 1 gigaton salvo, which can be repeated every few seconds (given time to reload and reacquire the spotter's data link.

It's a poor attacker/target rate, but since the Fed ships can jump around with Warp drives, they themselves will be very hard to engage, and can maintain that kind of engagement ratio.

It won't be EASY to take down Star Destroyers like that, but it will be a damn sight better than closing to phaser range and getting the shit torn out of you.

The problem is that you cannot just keep firing in a steady stream of say 1TT a second for a minute and think that the shields are slowly gonna degrade, SW shields do not work that way, because anything below the shields dispersion rating will be easily dispersed without any strain to the generator.
The only way of straining an SW shield is to hit with more energy than it can disperse per second for some time until the shield fails.
It's not like with ST shields where you could say fire a photon 20% as powerfull as the shields rating and it would say drop the shield rating 10-20%

[IDMR]

Similar computer links have been attempted in the past, providing an entire false set of sensor data. Providing REAL sensor data at the accuracy required by combat situations is not going to be a great step beyond that. It may tke some modification or recalibration or some such, but then you have to modify Federation equipment to make it do ANYTHING.

Actually, it might be. A set of false sensor data doesn't have to be that precise, but actual data-chain has to be. And what was the distance and comm condition in the example you mentioned? That too might be pertinent.

And yes, the torps themselves might have to be modified, but again, that's probably not a big deal, given that one was jury-rigged as a heatseeker in about fifteen minutes off the cuff in ST6.

... Different torpedoes, I trust. What is more, as it had already been mentioned, Photon torpedoes had demonstrated very poor accuracy and manoeuvrability. To rectify all this as well as incorporating a viable data chain slave might take a little longer than fifteen minutes.

[Patrick Ogaard]

At this point, I seriously doubt that anyone reasonable is saying that the Federation strategy would be successful in terms of actually winning the little war for the Federation. What the torpedo swarm strategy amounts to is making the best of a bad situation. It might also be defined as prolonging the agony of the Federation.

The Federation has ships with considerable tactical maneuverability (AKA low warp) and heavy loads of missile weapons, albeit missile weapons of questionable ultimate utility. What the Federation does not have: the ability to stand toe-to-toe with even the lightest Imperial capital ship even if one grants serious numerical advantage to Starfleet, effective long-range communications, and effective strategic mobility. The standup fighting ability of the Empire, combined with its drastic communications and strategic mobility advantages make it a trivial matter for the Empire to strike military targets at will with overwhelming force, and to bypass strongholds at will to strike vulnerable targets.

Ideally, at least for the Federation, the scenario would be that the Empire discovers a wormhole on the far side of Klingon/Romulan space, and that a minor sector commander decides to play generalissimo in what, to the Galactic Empire, amounts to a third world country. The third world country would, of course, be the Star Trek galaxy.

This scenario, deliberately designed to provide as many favors to the Federation as possible, would leave the ST galaxy facing the disposable forces of a smallish and woefully underfunded sector fleet. The biggest thing likely to be present in the fleet would be a few ISDs of assorted makes, supported by assorted frigates and other minor capital ships, supply vessels and perhaps a few squadrons of customs ships.

Essentially, sector governor decides that a minor spacetime anomaly is not worth reporting to higher headquarters. Initial investigation reveals that it is a link to a galaxy inhabited by backward primitives. The governor sends a few ISDs with a modest support fleet to have a look around, things get out of hand, and the governor decides to try to keep things quiet: if it comes out he held back vital information, he's for the choking; if he delivers a backwoods galaxy with minimal fuss, he's likely to be decorated and may be given permission to act as viceroy in the backwoods (or be given a nice villa on Coruscant).

The Federation might first hear rumors of the matter from Borg refugees fleeing the complete rout of their Collective. Even an ISD squadron of perhaps six ISDs plus support ships should be able to plow through almost any conceivable Borg opposition. (I have the strong suspicion that the superheavy triple turbolaser broadside of an ISD1 should be able to severely damage any cube, and flanking moves by cubes would just provide the opposite turbolaser broadside with the opportunity to do some shooting. The remaining turbolasers would be quite sufficient to take care of Borg patrol ships and spheres. A fleet of six ISDs could therefore, by my grossly unscientific but conservative estimate, be able to render ineffective up to a dozen cubes per volley, more if the point defense TLs and dual TL turrets are brought into play.

It would be Wolf 359 with the Borg on the receiving end. A supporting force of Nebulon-B frigates, customs ships and the like could run interference, keeping up steady fire against spheres and scoutships. A series of BDZ operations would quickly remove Borg bases, followed by the final push to Unimatrix Zero as soon as it is identified. (If the raw firepower of duly prepared starfleet capital ships is adequate to the task of tackling a cube, then a vastly more powerful ISD should have rather less trouble.)

Once the Borg are taken care of, which could take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months, depending on how quickly the Imperials find the controlling Unimatrix, the commander of the small taskforce decides to turn his attention to a more leisurely subjugation of the other portions of the galaxy. With limited resources available for the task, that would mean taking out major political entities, the most dangerous first. The Federation would likely count as the least dangerous multisystem entity when compared to the Voth, Romulans, Klingons, the Dominion, or well-prepared interstellar girl scouts.

Thus, in this scenario the Federation might have months to prepare, since a small ISD taskforce can only cover so much territory in a given period of time. Given such a lead time, it is very remotely possible that the Federation and Starfleet might actually realize the gravity of their predicament and undertake a massive consolidation of their population base, ramp up production of appropriate weapons systems, and refit existing starships to make optimal use of those weapons systems. A more reasonable picture of Federation action would, of course, be massive disarmament to not provoke aggression, followed by diplomatic overtures that will stop the Empire steamroller for approximately five seconds.

[Cpt_Frank]

Wether the Feds would start a massive armament programm or not is irrelevant, because they will be destroyed in any case.
Btw, I'd really like to see Federation attempts at negotiations with the Empire.

[starfury]

what about a imperial invasion of the alternate universe of star trek, most the original political entites are there, except for the AQ powers, no federation, no Romulan empire, either before the defeat of the terran empire by the alliance of Klingon-cardassains or before, then maybe the AQ forces can actually present real resistance.

it will nice to see the super nev'ghar flagship of the alliance meeting even a VSD in combat.

[Shadow]

As for this phase cloak thing of yours:
Read the page about it!
-Phase cloaked ships can be detected by Imp sensors
-They can be affected by gravity (Immobilizer-418)
-You can kill a phase-cloaked ship's crew with nerve-gas torpedos
-They are likely to be useless against dense materials and shields
-They are, after all LOST TECH!

1. They are out of phase.
2. How? They are out of phase.
3. They are out of phase.
4. This never happened, so this is a lie.
5. The Enterprise-D did it.

The Romulan device was not a phase cloak, and because they could see everyone, everyone should have seen them, but they did not. They passed through walls, but not the floor, so using that episode is useless for information on phase cloaks. It was also an accident. They weren't really phase cloaked like a ship would be.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Wether the Feds would start a massive armament programm or not is irrelevant, because they will be destroyed in any case.
Btw, I'd really like to see Federation attempts at negotiations with the Empire.

You'll note that I agree with you.

My point is really just that if given a huge number of breaks the Federation forces could conceivably last slightly longer against the Empire forces, the same way as a muscular armadillo might last longer against a steamroller than a weakling armadillo: both still end up flat, but one lasts just a few milliseconds longer.

[Howedar]

The Romulan device was not a phase cloak, and because they could see everyone, everyone should have seen them, but they did not. They passed through walls, but not the floor, so using that episode is useless for information on phase cloaks. It was also an accident. They weren't really phase cloaked like a ship would be.

You will now provide evidence for your laughable assertation that there are multiple types of phase cloaks.