New Republic vs. Galactic Empire

[Baffalo]

Most of the topics involved here involve the Empire at its peak, that being just before the destruction of the second Death Star, while the Rebellion is trying to build itself a fleet to fight the Empire. My question is, if the balance of power in the Star Wars galaxy were to be shifted to where the Empire and New Republic are equal, and two wormholes opened for each power, what would the consequences be for the Star Trek galaxy?

Notes: The Star Wars galaxy would be roughly in the shape it was prior to Thrawn's attacks on the New Republic, and the Federation has just finished dealing with the Dominion War. Would the Empire be willing to commit resources to attacking the Milky Way? Would the New Republic spend the credits trying to maintain peace in both galaxies?

[sgt67]

This is a pretty old versus, and it comes down to the same question: why should the Empire invade? What worth does any Star Trek government/race have to the Empire? Likewise, why should the New Republic intervene? Star Trek is simply orders of magnitude below Wars on a technological scale, so there's little reason to see why either government would even care.

[Big Phil]

"Would anyone give a shit about the backwater Trek galaxy?" might be a better question.

[Junghalli]

This is a pretty old versus, and it comes down to the same question: why should the Empire invade?

If anything an invasion might be less likely in the scenario. The Empire at its height might be tempted to indulge in a war of conquest in a distant galaxy, in this scenario it has bigger problems.

On the other hand I could possibly see both sides being interested in natural resources that are available in the MW to give them an edge over the other, so I could possibly see the Empire/Republic conflict spilling over to the MW, and possibly a certain amount of local military actions against MW powers for one reason or another (grab resource-rich worlds, secure an area against enemy interference etc.).

[Big Phil]

This is a pretty old versus, and it comes down to the same question: why should the Empire invade?

If anything an invasion might be less likely in the scenario. The Empire at its height might be tempted to indulge in a war of conquest in a distant galaxy, in this scenario it has bigger problems.

On the other hand I could possibly see both sides being interested in natural resources that are available in the MW to give them an edge over the other, so I could possibly see the Empire/Republic conflict spilling over to the MW, and possibly a certain amount of local military actions against MW powers for one reason or another (grab resource-rich worlds, secure an area against enemy interference etc.).

You've defined a solution to a non-existent problem for Wars. There aren't any shortages in natural resources in the Wars galaxy such that they would need to go to the trouble of getting them from the Milky Way.

[Junghalli]

You've defined a solution to a non-existent problem for Wars. There aren't any shortages in natural resources in the Wars galaxy such that they would need to go to the trouble of getting them from the Milky Way.

Well, you probably know more about it than I do, I haven't read much EU.

[Connor MacLeod]

"Natural resources" in the sense of metals and building materials maybe not, but other resources might offer potential "conquest" - the SW galaxy is basically an untapped market for SW corporations and businesses to involve in, and ST technology is an untapped market for those businesses/corporations to sell BACK to the SW galaxy.

Economic conquest is quite probable and the most likely outcome.

[keen320]

"Would anyone give a shit about the backwater Trek galaxy?" might be a better question.

The Empire might want slaves, if nothing else. They conquer several backwater planets for that purpose in EU, if I remember correctly. And it's not like Trek is completely devoid of useful tech. Transporters and replicators, at least would be useful.

The Rebel Alliance would probably try to recruit naive young Starfleet officers for their rebellion. Imagine the Rebel Alliance or New Republic possessing the ultimate power in the MW: Technobabble!

[Big Phil]

"Would anyone give a shit about the backwater Trek galaxy?" might be a better question.

The Empire might want slaves, if nothing else. They conquer several backwater planets for that purpose in EU, if I remember correctly.

Sure, I could buy that. But that's an awful lot of trouble to go to (invading a new galaxy) just for a slave raid. There's no shortage of backwater planets in the SW galaxy.

And it's not like Trek is completely devoid of useful tech. Transporters and replicators, at least would be useful.

Wars already has replicators... they're called duplicators in SW, but given that it is not in widespread use despite existing, one would expect that SW manufacturing considers duplication/replication technology unnecessary or inferior to whatever else they have.

The Rebel Alliance would probably try to recruit naive young Starfleet officers for their rebellion. Imagine the Rebel Alliance or New Republic possessing the ultimate power in the MW: Technobabble!

Why would they do that? That would be like Iraqi insurgents coming across a group of Cro Magnon and deciding they would make great recruits. And again, it's not there's a shortage of recruits in the SW galaxy.

[keen320]

The Rebel Alliance would probably try to recruit naive young Starfleet officers for their rebellion. Imagine the Rebel Alliance or New Republic possessing the ultimate power in the MW: Technobabble!

Why would they do that? That would be like Iraqi insurgents coming across a group of Cro Magnon and deciding they would make great recruits. And again, it's not there's a shortage of recruits in the SW galaxy.

Not exactly. While I realize you're exaggerating, the Rebel Alliance is a bit more advanced than Iraqi Insurgents. The Iraqis just make roadside bombs. The Alliance somehow manufactures their own custom, top of the line starfighters (how do they do that, anyway?). And no matter how powerful Star Wars tech may be compared to Trek tech, it doesn't make the Federation like a bunch of Cro-Magnons. More like the Professor on Gilligan's Island making stuff out of bamboo. It may be pathetic by comparison, but it's still difficult to manufacture, and just as difficult, if not more so, to operate, repair and maintain.
The Rebels might actually be more like, "Wow, these guys are actually pretty smart! And they have the same ridiculously alien friendly values! I wonder what they could do if we gave them some real technology?"

[Srelex]

Let's not get too carried away here; the Federation is still technologically advanced, and even if they don't have the same firepower as the SW denizens they've still got a good technology base. I'm sure at least commonplace replicators would draw glances, as would the holodeck and Trek-standard holograms.

[Batman]

The Rebel Alliance would probably try to recruit naive young Starfleet officers for their rebellion. Imagine the Rebel Alliance or New Republic possessing the ultimate power in the MW: Technobabble!

Why would they do that? That would be like Iraqi insurgents coming across a group of Cro Magnon and deciding they would make great recruits. And again, it's not there's a shortage of recruits in the SW galaxy.

Not exactly. While I realize you're exaggerating, the Rebel Alliance is a bit more advanced than Iraqi Insurgents.And no matter how powerful Star Wars tech may be compared to Trek tech, it doesn't make the Federation like a bunch of Cro-Magnons.

Actually, technology wise, yes it does.

More like the Professor on Gilligan's Island making stuff out of bamboo. It may be pathetic by comparison, but it's still difficult to manufacture, and just as difficult, if not more so, to operate, repair and maintain.

Um-no. Anything you can make out of unrefined natural resources without the need for anything but hand tools if that is INFINITELY more easy to repair, operate and maintain than even bronze age stuff, nevermind 'Trek leave alone Wars tech levels (possibly excepting the 'operate' on the bronze age level as the Professor will have inferior materials but superior knowledge).

The Rebels might actually be more like, "Wow, these guys are actually pretty smart!"

Actually, they're more likely to be 'okay, those guys seem to be reasonably smart, but their technology is essentially useless.'

And they have the same ridiculously alien friendly values!'

Why, pray tell, would the Rebellion of all parties call alien friendly values ridiculous?

"I wonder what they could do if we gave them some real technology?"

'if, that is, we could wait a couple centuries to millenia for them to catch up to our tech level. No offense, AQ, but we intended for this Rebellion to be over in our lifetimes. But we will absolutely give you a call once we've established the New Republic, especially if you're in the TNG or even better VOY era by then. We can absolutely make use of your penchant for doing asininely stupid things under that government.'

Let's not get too carried away here; the Federation is still technologically advanced, and even if they don't have the same firepower as the SW denizens they've still got a good technology base. I'm sure at least commonplace replicators would draw glances, as would the holodeck and Trek-standard holograms.

Replicators are nothing to brag about, they seem to be limited to relatively small-scale items, they don't seem to be all that great at accuracy (frequent mentions of replicated food not tasting quite like the real thing), and there's things they just plain CAN'T replicate.
As for holograms, the EMH's mobile emitter might be of interest as Wars mobile hologram generators are more bulky and have a very limited lifetime (not to mention lack the ability to make holograms tactile) and the holodecks are at best a maybe.

[Junghalli]

Let's not get too carried away here; the Federation is still technologically advanced, and even if they don't have the same firepower as the SW denizens they've still got a good technology base. I'm sure at least commonplace replicators would draw glances, as would the holodeck and Trek-standard holograms.

Don't forget transporters.

[keen320]

Actually, technology wise, yes it does.

Not really. Cro-Magnon's weaponry is only really similar to ours in that their rocks (or spears, not really up to date on them) are technically projectile weapons like ours. And they still need shelter. But all of their "technology" is only the basic necessities for hunting and gathering.

The difference between Trek and Wars tech is more like the difference between our stuff and what they had in the late 19th century. They both use energy weapons, shields, FTL travel and communications, span multiple star systems, and have massive bureaucratic governments, but Wars tech is orders of magnitude better.

Why, pray tell, would the Rebellion of all parties call alien friendly values ridiculous?

I let some sarcasm creep in there.

'if, that is, we could wait a couple centuries to millenia for them to catch up to our tech level. No offense, AQ, but we intended for this Rebellion to be over in our lifetimes. But we will absolutely give you a call once we've established the New Republic, especially if you're in the TNG or even better VOY era by then. We can absolutely make use of your penchant for doing asininely stupid things under that government.'

They wouldn't need all of the Federation to catch up for them to be useful. They could still use Federation officers, and Federation engineers are apparently capable of understanding just about any technology when the writers feel like it, and in this case they would have help.

And really, as if the Empire doesn't also have a long track record of stupid things? Like letting their first huge superweapon get blown up by 30 fighters, a farmboy, and a smuggler? After LETTING the Rebels get away with the plans!? For that matter, just about every government in the Wars Galaxy, from the earliest days of the Old republic to the Fel Empire, has made several incalculable blunders.

[Big Phil]

Actually, technology wise, yes it does.

Not really. Cro-Magnon's weaponry is only really similar to ours in that their rocks (or spears, not really up to date on them) are technically projectile weapons like ours. And they still need shelter. But all of their "technology" is only the basic necessities for hunting and gathering.

The difference between Trek and Wars tech is more like the difference between our stuff and what they had in the late 19th century. They both use energy weapons, shields, FTL travel and communications, span multiple star systems, and have massive bureaucratic governments, but Wars tech is orders of magnitude better.

So you're basically conceding the argument, is that what you're saying? Because there's nothing from the 19th Century that we're still using that hasn't a) been improved on substantially or b) replaced with something better. Gaslight, meet CFL lightbulbs. Coal, meet oil/wind/solar/nuclear/hydroelectric. Pen and paper, meet the new iMac 27". And the 19th vs. 21st century doesn't even come close to the gap between the Empire and the Federation.

'if, that is, we could wait a couple centuries to millenia for them to catch up to our tech level. No offense, AQ, but we intended for this Rebellion to be over in our lifetimes. But we will absolutely give you a call once we've established the New Republic, especially if you're in the TNG or even better VOY era by then. We can absolutely make use of your penchant for doing asininely stupid things under that government.'

They wouldn't need all of the Federation to catch up for them to be useful. They could still use Federation officers, and Federation engineers are apparently capable of understanding just about any technology when the writers feel like it, and in this case they would have help.

So you're proposing that the Rebellion/New Republic, which has no shortage of manpower, is going to actively recruit a bunch of backwater hicks, spends years of time and resources to train them up to Wars standards (starting by teaching them how to read, write, and speak Basic), which may be impossible given the gap in even basic knowledge between the Federation and Empire, is that about the size of it?

Other than asinine arguments like "Federation engineers are apparently capable of understanding just about any technology when the writers feel like it," your argument basically boils down to "The Rebels would do this because I like Trek," because let's face it, there's ZERO benefit to the New Republic in taking on the job of training a bunch of ignorant backwater hicks.

[fallendragon]

...Umm last time I checked a backwater hick brought down the Death Star.

Also why do they need to learn basic again? And, why are you assumeing absolutly no possible senergies between Wars and Trek tec?

I mean, I get it, you hate Trek with a passion, but ignoring something cause you don't like it, is rather stupid to be honest, and in the rebellion era, the rebel leaders are rather intellient. (Once it becomes the New Republic they get much dumber)

[Purple]

...Umm last time I checked a backwater hick brought down the Death Star.

Only because he was a magical prodigy embed with incredible magical power and aptitude.

Also why do they need to learn basic again? And, why are you assumeing absolutly no possible senergies between Wars and Trek tec?

Well mostly becouse, even thou the universal translator might allow them to speak with the rebels all the buttons and the user manuals on the machines are still in basic.

Also, the issue is that the feds would have to re learn a lot of things.
Shuttle comands (keyboards) are no where near the pilot sticks of star fighters for example. An this is just the tip of the ice berg.

Training a fedie to use SW technology would be like trying to train a person who has newer seen a car on how to drive a tank. The problem is similar to what we see today with older generations that grew up without computers and that now have a hard time learning them while modern kids walk around texting everything that moves via their IPhones.

Now imagine trying to educate someone that grew up on ships that can barely move at warp 2 (shuttle craft) how to use a star fighter so fast that even thou it was designed to travel between planets it does not even have a chemical toilet.

I mean, I get it, you hate Trek with a passion, but ignoring something cause you don't like it, is rather stupid to be honest, and in the rebellion era, the rebel leaders are rather intellient. (Once it becomes the New Republic they get much dumber)

This has nothing to do with either love or hate. It has everything to do with simple thing called the technology gap.
Also, it is not true that the rebels were smart and the NR were stupid. They were mostly the same people.
The problem was that the leaders were good terrorists but bad politicians. We see that all the time in our world.

[Big Phil]

...Umm last time I checked a backwater hick brought down the Death Star.

Like purple said, that backwater hick was a magical prodigy, but he was also fully educated to a Wars standard for backwater hicks. He wasn't a Cro-Magnon magical prodigy, he was a prodigy from the Louisiana bayou.

Also why do they need to learn basic again?

To be able to communicate? Oh right, that magical Universal Translator that doesn't always work is going to work PERFECTLY between two different galaxies.

And, why are you assumeing absolutly no possible senergies between Wars and Trek tec?

Jesus Christ son, use a fucking spell check. I'm not even sure what the fuck you're trying to say here. Assuming you're arguing that the Feds should magically be able to learn to use Wars technology, however, you're going to need to show how this is possible, not just declare it by fiat.

I mean, I get it, you hate Trek with a passion, but ignoring something cause you don't like it, is rather stupid to be honest, and in the rebellion era, the rebel leaders are rather intellient. (Once it becomes the New Republic they get much dumber)

Would you like some cheese to go with your whine? WAAA!!! You hate Trek you big meanie!!!

[keen320]

Training a fedie to use SW technology would be like trying to train a person who has newer seen a car on how to drive a tank. The problem is similar to what we see today with older generations that grew up without computers and that now have a hard time learning them while modern kids walk around texting everything that moves via their IPhones.

Now imagine trying to educate someone that grew up on ships that can barely move at warp 2 (shuttle craft) how to use a star fighter so fast that even thou it was designed to travel between planets it does not even have a chemical toilet.

Teaching Federation people to use Star Wars stuff is more like teaching someone who began with a rotary phone how to use a touch tone. Star Wars stuff is probably easier to use than Trek stuff is, it does mostly the same basic stuff, it just does everything better. And it's increased capabilities would make it easier to use than what they're used to. This is probably because it's all thought up by real people who can't imagine what people might be using so far in the future, or the past, or whatever.

A Cro-Magnon doesn't have the background to understand modern technology. It's just magic. The Federation would not think of Star Wars stuff as magic, they are totally used to using modern technology, Star Wars stuff just eclipses theirs capability wise.

Also, we don't know how long it would take Trek people to understand Star Wars tech, because we don't know how complicated their stuff is. Based on the amount of techno-babble in their heads, Trek officers have mountains of knowledge packed away. Even though they are only about twenty to thirty, they seem to have mastered multiple PHds.

[Big Phil]

Training a fedie to use SW technology would be like trying to train a person who has newer seen a car on how to drive a tank. The problem is similar to what we see today with older generations that grew up without computers and that now have a hard time learning them while modern kids walk around texting everything that moves via their IPhones.

Now imagine trying to educate someone that grew up on ships that can barely move at warp 2 (shuttle craft) how to use a star fighter so fast that even thou it was designed to travel between planets it does not even have a chemical toilet.

Teaching Federation people to use Star Wars stuff is more like teaching someone who began with a rotary phone how to use a touch tone. Star Wars stuff is probably easier to use than Trek stuff is, it does mostly the same basic stuff, it just does everything better. And it's increased capabilities would make it easier to use than what they're used to. This is probably because it's all thought up by real people who can't imagine what people might be using so far in the future, or the past, or whatever.

A Cro-Magnon doesn't have the background to understand modern technology. It's just magic. The Federation would not think of Star Wars stuff as magic, they are totally used to using modern technology, Star Wars stuff just eclipses theirs capability wise.

Also, we don't know how long it would take Trek people to understand Star Wars tech, because we don't know how complicated their stuff is. Based on the amount of techno-babble in their heads, Trek officers have mountains of knowledge packed away. Even though they are only about twenty to thirty, they seem to have mastered multiple PHds.

There are so many problems with your post I hardly know where to think, but let's start here:

1. Star Wars is AT LEAST 20,000 years more advanced (technologically) than Star Trek. Now you keep making hare brained arguments that Trek isn't that far back; fine, for the sake of arguments, I'll knock off 90% of the gap, but no 99% like you seem to want to do. So the Federation is roughly 2000 years behind the Empire. On Earth, 2000 years back puts us in the Iron Age. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that you could make up the gap between a 1st Century AD human and a 21st Century human in a few months or years. NONE.

Why is that, you may ignorantly ask? First, if all you want is canon fodder, it's cheaper and easier to get local yokels (from the SW galaxy), teach them to point and pull a trigger, and put them on the front line. You don't need to go recruiting in the Alpha Quadrant. But I'll certainly concede that if that's all you want, then I'm sure you could recruit Feddies to do it.

Second, if you want to get anything useful out of the Feddies, or teach them anything useful, you first need to have a common language, and more importantly, a common way of thinking, to teach people anything or to learn anything from them. You can't simply magic away the differences in language with the universal translator. That's going to take some time (maybe a few months for the smartest, while the dumbest will never figure it out).

So then you're left with those who haven't washed out of language training... what are you going to teach them? What do you want to learn from them? Their technology is 2000-20,000 years out of date, so they can't really teach you anything you want to know (except as a curiosity). So why would you waste the time teaching them?

And that's all assuming someone even bothers to recruit from the Federation. Your argument fails on its basic premise, which is that there is a fertile recruiting ground in the Federation for the New Republic. Why would the New Republic bother to recruit there? What you think of as "neat new stuff" is simply your ignorance, as technology that is 2000 years or more out of date is NOT "neat new stuff."

[Srelex]

Well, what language would both speak anyway? I mean, as far as the evidence is concerned, it seems that virtually everyone human speaks English. I think ST managed to translate fucking Breen of all languages, so surely Basic wouldn't be that hard to crack?

[Batman]

Teaching Federation people to use Star Wars stuff is more like teaching someone who began with a rotary phone how to use a touch tone

The term 'No' comes to mind. For starters, you don't have to learn a completely new language to move from rotary to touch tone.
Second, rotary-10 numbers. Touch tone-10 numbers. Also, same underlying technology. Wars vs Trek-hrmm...
But even assuming the Trek people can be taught[/i] to operate Wars technology by simply being told which button to push, what would that benefit the Rebels? They already have a manpower pool considerably deeper than the entire Alpha Quadrant, all of which have a basic education in Wars technology.

Star Wars stuff is probably easier to use than Trek stuff is, it does mostly the same basic stuff, it just does everything better. And it's increased capabilities would make it easier to use than what they're used to.

Because of-what, exactly? Why would a 200GT MTL be inherently easier to use than a, say, 1.05GW phaser?

This is probably because it's all thought up by real people who can't imagine what people might be using so far in the future, or the past, or whatever.

Blimey. And here I thought the people working at LFL were real too.

A Cro-Magnon doesn't have the background to understand modern technology. It's just magic. The Federation would not think of Star Wars stuff as magic, they are totally used to using modern technology, Star Wars stuff just eclipses theirs capability wise.

Which changes the fact that it does-how, exactly?

Also, we don't know how long it would take Trek people to understand Star Wars tech, because we don't know how complicated their stuff is. Based on the amount of techno-babble in their heads, Trek officers have mountains of knowledge packed away. Even though they are only about twenty to thirty, they seem to have mastered multiple PHds.

In Trek. You blithely assume since they can figure out technology closely related to their own and usually on their own or close tech level, they can figure out anything on short notice. Extrapolation to infinity.
The only thing Trek can offer the Rebellion is manpower, and they have plenty of that already.

[keen320]

The only thing Trek can offer the Rebellion is manpower, and they have plenty of that already.

What about Transporters? Time travel?

Second, if you want to get anything useful out of the Feddies, or teach them anything useful, you first need to have a common language, and more importantly, a common way of thinking, to teach people anything or to learn anything from them. You can't simply magic away the differences in language with the universal translator. That's going to take some time (maybe a few months for the smartest, while the dumbest will never figure it out).

Actually, you can magic away the language difference. That's why Trek writers came up with the thing. And common ways of thought? Human thought in Star Wars isn't any different than ours. Also, we have no way of knowing how much more advanced Star Wars actually is. Their technology seems to remain fairly stagnant for very long periods of time. And we have no way of knowing how many (or few) scientific principles are needed to understand their technology.

[Big Phil]

Second, if you want to get anything useful out of the Feddies, or teach them anything useful, you first need to have a common language, and more importantly, a common way of thinking, to teach people anything or to learn anything from them. You can't simply magic away the differences in language with the universal translator. That's going to take some time (maybe a few months for the smartest, while the dumbest will never figure it out).

Actually, you can magic away the language difference. That's why Trek writers came up with the thing. And common ways of thought? Human thought in Star Wars isn't any different than ours. Also, we have no way of knowing how much more advanced Star Wars actually is. Their technology seems to remain fairly stagnant for very long periods of time. And we have no way of knowing how many (or few) scientific principles are needed to understand their technology.

And how many languages is the universal translator unable to translate, hmm? Or did you forget about that?

I can't say I'm shocked that you don't think there would be any problems with cultures separated by 20,000+ years of technological growth would have cultural differences; I'm guessing you also struggle with understanding why a Saudi might view things differently from a Canadian. Those cultural differences are on the same planet, not separate galaxies.

[Purple]

Let us say that the translator works perfectly.
Now, let us also assume that technology is as easy to use as you say. After all, how hard can it be to point a blaster at someone and pull the trigger right?

Well, there we meat the first problem. You see, it might not be too hard to train someone to shoot a blaster or pilot a star fighter to some reliability. But once you get to the more complex tasks you will be out of luck. Starfleet engineers who have spent their entire lives studding technology will find them self as the tech equivalent of script kiddies. They will have to learn completely new electronics, computer science, materials science hell even completely new physics. And this is not something you can make up for easily.

So you will end up with a huge pool of basic conscript infantry with little or no basic support. Something like the equivalent of the African kid that fired one clip from an AK-47 and is now a full blown soldier. The rebels would have to supply their own engineers, navigators and other specialist crews. And as it has been said before, the rebels are in no real shortage of untrained man power. So what benefit is there for them to land on say Andoria and pick people up that they can't equally get by landing on random outer rim planet #42213432?

On the flip side, the population of random outer rim planet #42213432 might be much more sympathetic to the rebel cause, would actually know what they were fighting against, would not have a strong underlaying culture of self sufficiency and supremacy that would have to be scattered to the wind etc.

And this is all assuming that the federation would allow it self to be reduced to a training camp for insurgent conscripts.