Defending the Federation(RAR)

[Carinthium]

It's been established time and time again in this forum that militarily the Federation is indefensible against the Empire- but how could it best be done in a somewhat different scenario?

Situation: You're in charge of the Federation Council in a 100% (this is a RAR) realistic simulation of an Empire v.s Federation war, with both galaxies fully simulated- this loosens your moral constraints. The wormhole is from a point in the "middle of nowhere" in Federation space to a similiar one in Imperial space- the programmer postulated a total victory at the battle of the second Death Star, but the foe is Palpatine's Empire.

You are being observed by an audience of Stardestroyer.net regulars that is statistically representative to the maximum extent possible (again, RAR)- you obviously can't win, but are playing to impress your audience with how you do rather than any real political or military objectives.

What do you do?

EDIT: Oops- was arguing on another threat, and got mixed up. Changed it now.

[Batman]

I immediately surrender and agree to become part of the Empire, because chances are since I have little to nothing to offer the Empire, as long as I pay my taxes they'll leave me alone and it's going to be pretty much business as usual.

[Carinthium]

In the scenario, however, you are playing to demonstrate your tactical, strategic ability etc rather than because the fate of 'real' nations are at stake. Wouldn't you want to put up a fight just to show that you could?

In this situation, for example, I'd try to buy time for a top-secret fleet or at least ship to leave the Federation well-equipped (so that it would sitll technically exist), prepare for gurellia warfare, try to make alliances with the Alpha Quadrant powers (I'd say Dominion but it would make me look like an idiot- in a 'real' scenario it would be worth a try), get Section 31 and any similiar groups on-side on stealing Imperial tech or getting it from Rebel remnants which I know OOC exist, absolutely refuse to surrender (it's not like execution will stop the wheels in motion, and I have no real fear of my life) in order to rally the people, and get info from enemy commander's minds (we have Betazoids...) to avoid battle and hide our main fleet as long as possible.
(I'm taking a gamble with that one- but there's at least a chance Vader will try to track down the mysterious Federation fleet still in Federation space, and the Empire will prevent things calming down by staying on a formal war footing. This also buys time to get Imperial tech)

I'm likely to still lose, but my probability of doing well enough that I will at least appear like an impressive tactician is non-neglible. What in 'reality' would be a senseless waste of lives would in the scenario be a fighting chance. (Primarily because in a scenario the standards for a plan being good enough are loewr)

[Batman]

In the scenario, however, you are playing to demonstrate your tactical, strategic ability etc rather than because the fate of 'real' nations are at stake. Wouldn't you want to put up a fight just to show that you could?

No. Because the audience I would be playing to knows I can't.

In this situation, for example, I'd try to buy time for a top-secret fleet or at least ship to leave the Federation well-equipped

And how, exactly, would you do that?

(so that it would sitll technically exist), prepare for gurellia warfare

What do you mean by guerillia warfare? I sure hope you don't mean Trek ships ambushing Wars ones, because if you do, everything CC and up owns the entirety of Starfleet.

try to make alliances with the Alpha Quadrant powers (I'd say Dominion but it would make me look like an idiot- in a 'real' scenario it would be worth a try)

By all means do. You now have access to the resources of a power that is...still hopelessly outgunned by Star Wars.

get Section 31 and any similiar groups on-side on stealing Imperial tech or getting it from Rebel remnants which I know OOC exist

Congratulations! You have now available examples of a technology that, given several thousand years of technological advancement, you might actually decipher the workings of. Since you don't have those several thousand years of technological advancement this helps you how, exactly?

absolutely refuse to surrender (it's not like execution will stop the wheels in motion, and I have no real fear of my life)

You do realize that for the Empire, executing the entirety of the Alpha Quadrant would be trivial, right?

in order to rally the people, and get info from enemy commander's minds (we have Betazoids...) to avoid battle and hide our main fleet as long as possible.

Whatever for? Your entire fleet can't kill a single measly VSD.

(I'm taking a gamble with that one- but there's at least a chance Vader will try to track down the mysterious Federation fleet still in Federation space, and the Empire will prevent things calming down by staying on a formal war footing. This also buys time to get Imperial tech)

No he wouldn't and no it doesn't. Your fleet, even if you managed to save all of Starfleet, is irrelevant, and there's no way in hell you can reverse engineer Wars tech. When Trek goes up against Wars without involving its Quasiomnipotents it loses, period.

I'm likely to still lose, but my probability of doing well enough that I will at least appear like an impressive tactician is non-neglible. What in 'reality' would be a senseless waste of lives would in the scenario be a fighting chance. (Primarily because in a scenario the standards for a plan being good enough are loewr)

No it wouldn't. Your chances for even annoying the Empire are flimsy and your chances for a win are a flat out zero because a single Star Destroyer outguns the entire Alpha Quadrant.

[Carinthium]

1- You can put up a "sort of" fight, which is what I'm trying to do here.
2- Put two or three ships in an obscure place in the metaphorical middle of nowhere away from anything apparently strategic, and give them enough resources to leave, possibly with a small group of civilians. More an arguing point in the resulting debate- "At least the Federation still exists, technically!" Two ships is better than nothing.
3- I meant land gurellia warfare- the Empire still has a tech advantage, but a smaller one- getting our hands and using blasters is also easier (especially given that we prepared for this gurellia war, and experience with real-world primitive tribes adapting modern weaponary to a limited extent)
4- In the scenario, I'm trying to show off my abilities to wage war in the face of hopeless odds. I now have considerable resources at my disposal (if limited disposal) compared to what I started with, if not compared to the threat I face.
5- Because Section 31 would also get Rebel sympathisers (most likely just people and technicians off the street, as the Rebellion is nigh-crushed) to construct limited (admittedly) very limited improvements and make a few devices ahead of Star Trek tech from scratch. (some techs are bound to be simpler then others, and any advantage we score is a debating point) I could see Simulation-Federation gaining, say, space laser cannons at 50% of Star Wars 'power' and thus being able to ambush the ocassional isolated TIE Fighter. (Which, again, is better than what we started with)
6- Yes, but even Palpatine wants slaves. In the event of the war starting (which is a given because that was the simulation starting point), he'll probably want to subdue the Milky Way rather than kill everybody. If it gets out that the Federation President died refusing to surrender and no formal treaty is signed, it will provide a morale boost for the gurellias for as long as they last.
(Unless the simulation programmed for it I'd guessing that the Sith would be mysteriously unable to Force Persuade me...)
7- I didn't think of this at first, but I could also use this for talking points- having not put all my cards on the table in the fictional world, I could use rhethoric and claim that I still, like Washington in the American Revolution, had a fleet in the field which I had managed to keep under the noses of the Empire.
8- I'm taking a gamble- it's incredibly unlikely, but possible. Not to mention that we're talking about Palpatine here- with a foreign government that hasn't formally surrendered and small insigificant bands of gurellias, he's going to put the effort into hunting them down and use fear to keep order thus making things worse. (Tarkin Doctrine, precedent of Rebel Alliance)
9- I would claim, if I did well enough correctly, that I did as best as could be done under the circumstances and maximised my chances for annoying the Empire in a perilous situation.

EDIT: To criticise your own solution since this is a two-way debate only for now, I'll point out that it would NOT be buisness as usual. It's in-character for Palpatine to go on to conquer the Alpha Quadrant, and install Imperial governors throughout the Federation.

In addition, there's a risk of reprisals due to idealistic Starfleet officers (Picard types in particular, though I'd also see Sisko doing it and maybe even Janeway) rebelling anyway, getting slaughtered and making the Empire retaliate.

[Batman]

1- You can put up a "sort of" fight, which is what I'm trying to do here.

No you can't. By your very own OP I'm trying to impress the locals, who know that trying to put up a fight would be pointless.

2- Put two or three ships in an obscure place in the metaphorical middle of nowhere away from anything apparently strategic, and give them enough resources to leave, possibly with a small group of civilians. More an arguing point in the resulting debate- "At least the Federation still exists, technically!" Two ships is better than nothing.

Not when there's jack all you can achieve with them.

3- I meant land gurellia warfare- the Empire still has a tech advantage, but a smaller one- getting our hands and using blasters is also easier (especially given that we prepared for this gurellia war, and experience with real-world primitive tribes adapting modern weaponary to a limited extent)

Congratulations. You now have the means to actually hurt Stormtroopers. This is going to help you how, exactly?

4- In the scenario, I'm trying to show off my abilities to wage war in the face of hopeless odds. I now have considerable resources at my disposal (if limited disposal) compared to what I started with, if not compared to the threat I face.

Err-they're called hopeless odds for a reason you know.

5- Because Section 31 would also get Rebel sympathisers (most likely just people and technicians off the street, as the Rebellion is nigh-crushed) to construct limited (admittedly) very limited improvements and make a few devices ahead of Star Trek tech from scratch.

Um-no? We're talking a tens of thousands of years tech gap here? The Feds can't do beans about producing Wars level equipment and the Rebels are scrapped for resources in their own galaxy as it is.

(some techs are bound to be simpler then others, and any advantage we score is a debating point) I could see Simulation-Federation gaining, say, space laser cannons at 50% of Star Wars 'power' and thus being able to ambush the ocassional isolated TIE Fighter. (Which, again, is better than what we started with)

Because-you say so. 50% means an increase of several orders of magnitude in Trek firepower. The rem 'No' comes to mind.

6- Yes, but even Palpatine wants slaves. In the event of the war starting (which is a given because that was the simulation starting point), he'll probably want to subdue the Milky Way rather than kill everybody. If it gets out that the Federation President died refusing to surrender and no formal treaty is signed, it will provide a morale boost for the gurellias for as long as they last.

Which isn't going to be very long, if it's an actually realistic simulation. Blow up a planet or two, guess what will happen?

7- I didn't think of this at first, but I could also use this for talking points- having not put all my cards on the table in the fictional world, I could use rhethoric and claim that I still, like Washington in the American Revolution, had a fleet in the field which I had managed to keep under the noses of the Empire.

And since a single Star Destroyer outguns the entire Alpha Quadrant, they'd say 'bring it on'.

[Carinthium]

1- If you simply surrendered, the entire exercise would appear pointless. By being a slight annoyance to the Empire, you can show off your tactical abilities by maximising the cost of the operation. If you somehow make them pay a serious price in casualties, money or trouble you will prove yourself a military genius.
2- It means that the Federation hasn't TECHNICALLY been completely conquered- the ships are still there as representatives of the Federation ideal.
3- Isn't that obvious? Once a gurellia unit gets their hand on stolen blasters (very difficult, but probability says that if there are cells on every Federation planet some will), they can start ambushing soldiers in alleys- to either deplete their morale (and trigger reprisals against the populace thus keeping them on our side) or to acquire uniforms depending on the needs of the planetary resistance.
4- This is just a simulation even in the scenario- that means the opportunity is there to show off. I'd argue in this hypothetical debate that my odds had been mulitplied by 2-4, even if they were still below 1%. That is progress, and shows off my abilities in a situation like this.
5- These would be just ordinary people, not actual members of the Rebel Alliance. Just as enough engineers from modern times could probably create a jury-rigged pistol (if an inferior one to standard designs), enough SW engineers might be able to make an inferior blaster.
6- O.K, maybe you've got a point THERE- my figures were exaggerated. Still, we could get highly effective tech compared to what we had.
7- Alderrran comes to mind. Most of the populace might be cowed, but when soldiers initiate "reprisals" against them there will be no choice but to fight. Meanwhile, a small minority (1% is admittedly highly optimstic, but a few thousand per planet maybe) start resistance movements- a few worlds, like Bajor and Cardassia, already have plenty of experience at that.
8- In my rhethoric, I point out that the fleet is at least there on the off chance we get some better tech or something. Additionally (although I didn't think of this at first I admit), eventually Imperial tech will filter down to civilians- we can get our hands on it then, and strike back. (The Rebel Alliance got their hands on Imperial-level tech, why should we not?)

[The Romulan Republic]

I suggest you put spaces between your points. It'll make it easier to read.

Anyway, I do think people underrate the Federation (even if they are still terribly outclassed), but I don't have the energy to post a lengthy argument on it right now. If this thread hasn't been locked by tomorrow, I might give it a shot.

[Darth Tedious]

1- By being a slight annoyance to the Empire, you can show off your tactical abilities by maximising the cost of the operation.

Insects that splatter against a car's windshield are a slight annoyance. They really don't cost much to deal with.

If you somehow make them pay a serious price in casualties, money or trouble you will prove yourself a military genius.

Okay. How?

2- It means that the Federation hasn't TECHNICALLY been completely conquered- the ships are still there as representatives of the Federation ideal.

The Federation is usually listed as having 150 member worlds. Are you seriously saying that with 0 member worlds, they wouldn't be technically conquered? Remember, it's the United Federation of Planets.
Keep in mind, this idea only works if your ships aren't found. As an audience member, I'm not impressed by this tactic (though I can't speak for everyone).

What I did like was this:

3- I meant land gurellia warfare- the Empire still has a tech advantage, but a smaller one- getting our hands and using blasters is also easier (especially given that we prepared for this gurellia war, and experience with real-world primitive tribes adapting modern weaponary to a limited extent)

Redshirts versus Stormtroopers? I love it!

[Carinthium]

1- I'm trying to MAXIMISE annoyance. The fact that I can't do much doesn't mean I can't prove myself able to maximise the amount of annoyance avaliable. (You can run a simulation of playing an insect trying to kill a determined adult male trying to kill it, for example- it can still be a demonstration of tactical skill)
2- I've done the best I can in that regard, but my I.Q is only 92 and I don't know as much about the setting as some people. I hoped somebody else might at least have a better plan than I did.
3- It means that there is still a Federation presence in the galaxy, and still a political entity named the 'United Federation of Planets' that can rightly claim continuity with the previous Federation.

[Darth Tedious]

You might want to read this.

[Carinthium]

I've read it. As I said, I'm trying to MAXIMISE my chances. A direct space battle is suicide, so I do everything I can to avoid one. The ground figures actually aren't as lopsided, so I focus on ground warfare.

[Darth Tedious]

Have you considered AT-ATs? Star Trek seems to have a distinct lack of mechanised ground warfare...

[Metahive]

Ground battles also don't matter much when the enemy has orbital superiority. Really, the only way for the Feds to "annoy" the Empire is if the Empire decides on conquering the quadrant by setting up guerillas and even that might just compel the Empire to simply annihilate the whole ST galaxy instead of wasting further efforts.

[The Romulan Republic]

Ground battles also don't matter much when the enemy has orbital superiority. Really, the only way for the Feds to "annoy" the Empire is if the Empire decides on conquering the quadrant by setting up guerillas and even that might just compel the Empire to simply annihilate the whole ST galaxy instead of wasting further efforts.

Seriously.

Yes, folks like Tarkin would be quite trigger happy, but even then their were only a handful of Base Delta Zeros in the Empire's recorded history.

I am so very tired of people claiming orbital bombardment is the be-all and end-all of warfare. If there is anything on the Trek planets they want, they have to have ground personel.

[Eternal_Freedom]

that might just compel the Empire to simply annihilate the whole ST galaxy instead of wasting further efforts.

Ok, dude, where's your suorce for claiming the EMpire can "Simply" annihilate an entire galaxy?

Even if you just mean render every planet uninhabitable that is no simple undertaking.

[Carinthium]

Have you considered AT-ATs? Star Trek seems to have a distinct lack of mechanised ground warfare...

That's why the answer is urban warfare (the Federation has no shortage of cities). The Empire could annilate whole cities or planets, but this costs them valuable potential resources for post-conquest.

Ground battles also don't matter much when the enemy has orbital superiority. Really, the only way for the Feds to "annoy" the Empire is if the Empire decides on conquering the quadrant by setting up guerillas and even that might just compel the Empire to simply annihilate the whole ST galaxy instead of wasting further efforts.

Again- how much is it going to cost the Empire to take control?

[Purple]

Here is a question. What is stopping the empire from using chemical weapons or just deploying its superior air power and mechanized forces to crush any enemy?

I mean, Star Trek has not shown any signs of air power other than shuttle craft while the empire is much better equipped in that region. Furthermore having a star destroyer parked above the planet means that the Empire essentially has access to unlimited unstoppable surveillance all over the world. I mean, we do it today with satellites so it is no big stretch that the Empire should be capable of doing the same with a starship. Ergo, the guerrillas will have nowhere to hide. Any strong points that are located will be destroyed with orbital bombardment since the rebels will have no theater shields to protect them. So the Empire will probably not even stage a ground landing untill the world is pacified. Its not like the guns on a ISD are only capable of two settings, BDZ and off. And if not the star destroyer can serve as a base to launch precision strikes anywhere on the planet anyway.

Meanwhile, you have to consider just how long before your troops simply abandon you if you fallow this course of action. Keep in mind that Federation people are grown under strange and weird ideals like that having reprisals against their civilian population is bad for morale. Chances are that when the Empire offers them a surrender with a warning of say burning a city, and than when you don't surrender they fallow up on their threat a lot of your troops will surrender to save the second city on the list.

[Carinthium]

I can't remember any actual precedent for Palpatine's Empire using chemical weapons- presumably it is some sort of cultural blind spot. Also, if they had the ability to track everything on a planet they would have used it at the Battle of Hoth at least for intelligence purposes- knowing the positions of rebel deployments, exactly how many are still there, and where they are would be useful. As always, the Star Wars universe won't deploy it's technology to its full potential.

Although I'd never admit it to my troops, my objective is to give the Empire no choice but to destroy valuable infrastructure. By hiding in cities and launching hit-and-run attacks on any garrisons or imperial presence using a hard-core minority (yes most of the troops would surrender. No, not all would), we can likely trigger such a response.

The Empire won't know that's my original intention- what I intend them to see is that the Federation fleet is nowhere in sight, and that Federation rhethoric about preparing for a counter-strike against superior Imperial technology. To this end, the gurellia cells will be told that they're a backup plan to keep the Empire occupied whilst we get our hands on Imperial tech to fight back.

When Palpatine is in direct command of a battle, he tends to be very overconfident (see ROTJ) and make plenty of mistakes (ROTJ). If he's calling the shots, I can be sure of a ground landing. If he isn't, there's still a good chance- Imperial commanders haven't faced a situation like this before (the Rebels focused on space gurellia, not land gurellia tactics), so aren't likely to realise the potential dangers.

[Darth Tedious]

That's why the answer is urban warfare (the Federation has no shortage of cities).

Which AT-Sts are well suited to, and the HAVr A9 Floating Fortress is specifically designed for.

It is best to deploy AT-STs in urban environments.

Orbital superiority also means no supplies and reinforcements, which could be bad for morale...

Although I'd never admit it to my troops, my objective is to give the Empire no choice but to destroy valuable infrastructure.

This assumes that Federation infrastructure is valuable to the Empire, who are considerably more advanced. As a comparsison, consider: If the modern US attacked ancient Rome, they wouldn't bother to save the aqueducts, because they can transport water with other means. They would happily destroy a smithery, because they have munitions factories. What infrastructure do the Federation have that the Empire couldn't afford to gleefully destroy? They'd need to replace it all later anyway...

When Palpatine is in direct command of a battle, he tends to be very overconfident (see ROTJ) and make plenty of mistakes (ROTJ).

Palpatine wasn't in direct command of the battle over Endor. He was in his throne room, attempting to convert Luke Skywalker to the Dark Side, remember? Fleet Admiral Piett led the Imperial fleet from the Executor. And could you give some examples of these 'plentiful' mistakes? The only thing which saved the day for the Rebel Scum was Chewbacca commandeering an AT-ST.
Also worth considering that, based on past behaviour, Palpatine would not come to the Milky Way. If he wants an unexplored region conquered, he sends Thrawn.Spoiler

Your chances of winning because of bad strategy on the Empire's part just got severely reduced.

Imperial commanders haven't faced a situation like this before (the Rebels focused on space gurellia, not land gurellia tactics), so aren't likely to realise the potential dangers.

Not only have the Empire fought the Rebel Scum in extensive guerilla campaigns, such as the Subjugation of Ralltiir, they won. Are there any examples of the Federation excelling in guerilla combat to help suggest that they wouldn't be slaughtered by a far-more-experienced Empire?

[The Romulan Republic]

Not only have the Empire fought the Rebel Scum in extensive guerilla campaigns, such as the Subjugation of Ralltiir, they won. Are there any examples of the Federation excelling in guerilla combat to help suggest that they wouldn't be slaughtered by a far-more-experienced Empire?

Not the Federation, but the Bajoran resistance and any surviving Marquis. And Damar's Cardassians.

[Carinthium]

BTW Romulan Republic, in keeping with the purpose of the thread maybe you could say what you would do? It probably differs at least in some respects from my idea, and could provide another perspective.

1- As I said, the Empire are still going to inevitably win. This is just trying to put up as effective a defence as can be done.
2- The gurellias would live off the land, by earning money like civilians or stealing what they need.
3- Firstly, the Federation can make Replicators and Transporters (their Holodeck technology MIGHT also be valuable). Secondly, destroying infrastructure means destroying people as well. Thirdly, physical buildings have some economic value under the new reigme. Fourthly, the Empire could probably dock in Federation facilities with some re-vamping.
4- The plan being carried out was the Emperor's, and the Star Destroyers were forbidden to fire except under his direct order. That puts him at the top of the military hierarchy for the battle.

Out of time, so I'll say more later.

[Metahive]

OK then, what is there on ST planets that the Empire could possibly lust for? In the past I supposed the only worth the ST galaxy could have would be to serve as a secret powerbase and staging grounds for rogue elements of the SW galaxy, if only the connection for the two wormholes wasn't well known. But that's not what the OP was proposing.

As for annihilating planets, the Fed has 150+ inhabited worlds plus an unknown number of colonies relatively close clustered together (by SW standards), how much time would that cost a squadron of Star Destroyers to turn into slag? It would probably take more time to annihilate the rest of the ST galaxy too, but if they really managed to piss the Empire off enough, I wouldn't consider that beyond the Empire's possibilities, if only because they have not to deal with any popular backlash back home by doing so.

[Carinthium]

Responding to earlier points, I should point out that Thrawn's formal mission involves exploring the unknown regions of the Star Wars galaxy. This, plus anti-alien racism, plus the fact that is probably a big deal at least in propaganda terms (conquering a new galaxy!), means a human commander is likely to recieve control if not Palpatine or Vader.

Destroying planets means less long-term infrastructure for when the Empire finally wins. Destroying Federation infrastructure makes it harder to take advantage of transporters, replicators and possibly holodecks (which could be useful to them) as I have already pointed out. There are also a large number of obscure phenomena each with a large enough percentage of chance of being usable that at least probably is (tech that could beam through shields, 'psychic powers' tech from TOS era, Threshold style Warp 10, etc- no individual one is likely to be of use, but mathematical probabilities go up for each one added), plus the fact that Palpatine mau be psycologically annoyed if his hand is forced (again, playing for what I can get...). There are also plenty of species which at least look interesting, both sentient and non-sentient, and which the Empire can more easily justify enslaving.

Both knowledge of human nature and SW canon suggest that even Imperial soldiers have consciences. Given the massive number of personell on a Star Destroyer, word is likely to leak back of massacres. If the Emperor wants to allow civilian travel between galaxies (which he has to to fully intergrate his domains), he'll have no choice but to accept that word will get out. Forcing them to destroy the Federation rather than reap the rewards means that there's at least a chance of

Again, even put together this isn't much but it is something and it makes the Empire's victory more like a 98% victory than a total one. If the Emperor ignores the fleet for long enough (which seems in-character), it is possible that techies could be bribed or kidnapped over time until the Federation fleet can at least put up a fight. (Long shot, but worth a try and better than letting them capture our ships and upgrade them with Imperial tech)

[Metahive]

OK, if it's tech the Empire is after then that requires only raiding a few databanks, not occupying any planets for extended periods of time and as for industrial infrastructure, umm, the difference between the two is like between WW2 Russia and 18th century mercantile France, not to speak geared towards using entirely different materials and building processes. Just look at what happened when west and east Germany reunited, it was a horrid mess that dragged their economy down for a decade (and its effects can still be felt today) and their tech base wasn't even as far apart. Scrapping the planets and building anew on them would be definitely the easier choice.
Slavery isn't useful for the Empire, that's why they have droids.

As for human consciousness, well, you probably know that we all being human didn't stop people here on this very planet from comitting abject atrocities, right?

I say destroying the ST galaxy is worthwhile for the Empire simply to avoid that some shmuck like Zaarin goes there and builds himself an independent powerbase.