Moderator: Vympel
oh wow, star wars eeks out another victory huh?You know, that's the stupidest thing you have posted so far, and for you, that's saying something. The Imperial Fleet keep instakilling E-Ds until they run out of supplies, and if they have an intact supply train, they keep instakilling E-Ds forever or until they lose interest and leave.
In fact, given that the original 285,000 E-Ds are an utter nonthreat to the Imps and I can't think of any reason for them to hang around to begin with, chances are they'll just leave and the Feds can sort out the mess.
With an unlimited supply line too! What are the odds. Thanks for pointing that out.They may, assuming the fissure is capable of merging an enterprise inside another enterprise. We see no examples of this in the visuals. It may just wait until one of them move out of the way so it has room to put another. But before that happens, would X number of enterprise-D destroy the imperial fleet?bilateralrope wrote:In that gif I see Enterprises appearing between ships that are already present. This means that if the fissure isn't closed, we have ships appearing at an exceptionally increasing rate inside a fixed volume of space. Eventually they are going to start appearing inside each other. Then the only thing that matters is that the total mass is increasing. Let that continue long enough and you have a black hole that will swallow the entire Federation.
The Federation loses here. While gravity only propagates at c, the Federation isn't a mobile civilisation. So while some parts of it may escape, the Federation as we know it will be destroyed.
The Empire can survive, but only if they retreat and stop the black holes gravity from reaching through the wormhole.
If the fissure can't place one thing inside another, then you still have a mass filled with ships that can't move. If any one of them loses anti-matter containment, you're looking at an explosion that breaches containment on the ships around it. This chain reaction would destroy all the ships.darthy wrote:They may, assuming the fissure is capable of merging an enterprise inside another enterprise. We see no examples of this in the visuals. It may just wait until one of them move out of the way so it has room to put another.
A better question to ask would be "How many Enterprise-D's would it take to destroy the Imperial Fleet ?"But before that happens, would X number of enterprise-D destroy the imperial fleet?
Here's some dialogue from the episodebilateralrope wrote:If the fissure can't place one thing inside another, then you still have a mass filled with ships that can't move. If any one of them loses anti-matter containment, you're looking at an explosion that breaches containment on the ships around it. This chain reaction would destroy all the ships.darthy wrote:They may, assuming the fissure is capable of merging an enterprise inside another enterprise. We see no examples of this in the visuals. It may just wait until one of them move out of the way so it has room to put another.
Since we are talking a growing growth rate, even if ships move, there will be a point where the fissure can fill it's volume within a second or so. Sometime between then and when the Enterprise density is high enough for the chain reaction, there is a chance of a collision violent enough to trigger it.
The chain reaction takes time to propagate and the debris from a ship will take time to clear an area. When the clear long enough for a ship to appear, they are still likely to receive a high speed piece of debris soon after. So the end result is a volume of space filled with explosions and spitting out debris.
Will the Federation get enough ships to damage the SW ships before this happens ?
Will the eternal explosion take the SW ships out before they flee ?
I don't know. I'd need the size of the volume where the fissure throws ships and the rate of production to take a guess.
Since I haven't seen the episode in question, how did they close the fissure ?
Was the fissure natural ?
I'm asking because I want to speculate on if the fissure is a self-terminating effect.
A better question to ask would be "How many Enterprise-D's would it take to destroy the Imperial Fleet ?"But before that happens, would X number of enterprise-D destroy the imperial fleet?
Don't try to explain how the Federation got so many.
We don't know if the keyhole intersects infinite realities, he just says many.DATA: I believe the quantum fissure we discovered is a fixed point across the space time continuum. A keyhole which intersects many other quantum realities.
TROI: What do you mean, quantum realities?
DATA: For any event, there is an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcomes will follow. But there is a theory in quantum physics that all possibilities that can happen, do happen in alternate quantum realities.
WESLEY: I've used a differential pulse to analyze over ten million quantum states within the fissure, but I still haven't found one with your signature. This may take some time, sir.
Natch.darthy wrote:oh wow, star wars eeks out another victory huh?
You are hardly in a position to claim a no-limits fallacy.With an unlimited supply line too! What are the odds.
Oh yes, because anomalies are well known for their patience, courtesy and sentience.It may just wait until one of them move out of the way so it has room to put another.
We saw exactly that in the episode in question, even with a fairly similar universe - one of the E-Ds opened fire on Worf's shuttle to prevent him fixing the problem (understandably, given that their home universe was crawling with Borg), and was destroyed by another.Metahive wrote:If characterisations in alternate universes run the whole gamut and there's an even distribution of attitudes then a good part of the Enterprises will be filled with sociopathic, warmongering psychos of varying sanity who'll rather open fire on their goody-goody counterparts than the Imperials. Just look at how disdainful mirror-Archer reacted towards the recorded actions of main-Archer.
This could easily be encouraged by the Death Star firing its superlaser through the swarm of Enterprises, destroying and damaging dozens of them (and that's being highly conservative) in the process. The Imperials would then have to quickly hyperspace away from the resulting explosions. Spoilerbilateralrope wrote:If any one of them loses anti-matter containment, you're looking at an explosion that breaches containment on the ships around it. This chain reaction would destroy all the ships.
They'd still attack when fired on. I specificially said the empire fleet is going to engage this armada of Enterprise-D's in order to prevoke them and because I knew there'd be people that would say to just wait it out and watch them destroy themselves via filling up the sector.darthy, aside all the problems already pointed out, what makes you think all those Enterprises would actually act as a coherent force? If characterisations in alternate universes run the whole gamut and there's an even distribution of attitudes then a good part of the Enterprises will be filled with sociopathic, warmongering psychos of varying sanity who'll rather open fire on their goody-goody counterparts than the Imperials. Just look at how disdainful mirror-Archer reacted towards the recorded actions of main-Archer.
Death Star II
Executor-class Star Dreadnought
1 Main communications ship
30+ Imperial-class Star Destroyers (ISD-Is and ISD-IIs)
Tector-class Star Destroyer
Victory-class Star Destroyer
Carrack-class light cruisers
Immobilizer 418 cruisers
Hundreds of Imperial starfighters (various types)
3+ Lambda-class shuttles
We saw one of the Enterprise-D's lose anti-matter containment. It didn't look very destructive to the other ships. Pretty clean actually, no visible debris left behind either.Darth Tedious wrote:This could easily be encouraged by the Death Star firing its superlaser through the swarm of Enterprises, destroying and damaging dozens of them (and that's being highly conservative) in the process. The Imperials would then have to quickly hyperspace away from the resulting explosions. Spoilerbilateralrope wrote:If any one of them loses anti-matter containment, you're looking at an explosion that breaches containment on the ships around it. This chain reaction would destroy all the ships.
And because the ship was so badly shot up that one torpedo from an undamaged Enterprise destroyed it (and its weapons were also so weakened that they did minimal damage to Worf's shuttle), it's only a matter of time before one such ship appears close enough to another to set off a chain reaction, especially if that ship is similarly damaged:Captain Seafort wrote:We saw exactly that in the episode in question, even with a fairly similar universe - one of the E-Ds opened fire on Worf's shuttle to prevent him fixing the problem (understandably, given that their home universe was crawling with Borg), and was destroyed by another.Metahive wrote:If characterisations in alternate universes run the whole gamut and there's an even distribution of attitudes then a good part of the Enterprises will be filled with sociopathic, warmongering psychos of varying sanity who'll rather open fire on their goody-goody counterparts than the Imperials. Just look at how disdainful mirror-Archer reacted towards the recorded actions of main-Archer.
Not quite at the same rate- only the ships in the outside edge of the swarm (on the side facing the Imperial fleet) would be able to get a clear shot. Suface area of a sphere doesn't increase in proportion with volume. And considering that only the Enterprises on the side facing the Imperial fleet could engage without risking friendly fire, the rate of increase in firepower facing the Empire would be miniscule compared to the rate at which the number of Enterprises was increasing.darthy wrote:Considering the Enterprise-D's rate of appearances were increasing exponentially the amount of damage they'd be doing to the imperial fleet would also increase exponentially.
Unless being in proximity to the fissure affects them too.darthy wrote:I think the problem of the scenario from a star wars point of view is the imperial fleet have a set number of ships.
You might want to watch it again. From 7:30. Wesley clearly states that their engine overloaded (not a warp core breach) supported by a visual that was clearly not a warp core breach.darthy wrote:We saw one of the Enterprise-D's lose anti-matter containment. It didn't look very destructive to the other ships. Pretty clean actually, no visible debris left behind either.
What the fuck is a taraton?Even if we grant superior star wars weaponry gigaton/taraton firepower 1 or 2 shot kills, the Enterprise-D's would peck at them like ducks until their shields gave, ships became too damaged, and they run out of fuel.
I predicted you were going to say something like this. This is why the scenario is set up where the fleet's goal is to overpower the armada. I'm asking who wins? What happens afterward is not important. I don't think the enterprise's will appear forever myself. The quantum fissure is an intersection of many quantum realities. Even if an infinite number of quantum realities exist, there's no reason to think they all intersect at this one quantum fissure.Metahive wrote:It makes no difference. The Imperials disengage and then the Enterprises collapse into a giant, universe-destroying singularity if the amount of alternate Enterprises is infinite. Just like what happened in one epside of Lexx where the bad guy gobbled up the mass of the entire universe via von Neumann probes and then concentrated it in one spot to get at the heroes (trippy, trippy).
Congratulations, darthy, you succesfully destroyed the Empire, at the cost of annihilating the entire universe via Big Crunch. Are you proud at yourself?
I meant teraton. Thanks for making me clarify that.What the fuck is a taraton?
What the heck is a Suface area? Never heard of thatNot quite at the same rate- only the ships in the outside edge of the swarm (on the side facing the Imperial fleet) would be able to get a clear shot. Suface area of a sphere doesn't increase in proportion with volume. And considering that only the Enterprises on the side facing the Imperial fleet could engage without risking friendly fire, the rate of increase in firepower facing the Empire would be miniscule compared to the rate at which the number of Enterprises was increasing.
Wesley said the warp containment field was weak on that ship. The containment field is what keeps the matter and anti-matter from mixing causing the breach. An overloaded engine wouldn't blow up a ship unless it lost antimatter containment which is precisely what a warp core breach is.You might want to watch it again. From 7:30. Wesley clearly states that their engine overloaded (not a warp core breach) supported by a visual that was clearly not a warp core breach.
Going by visuals alone, it was neither a engine overload or a warp containment field collapse. The explosion originated in the general area in the forward saucer area where the torpedo hit.darthy wrote:
Wesley said the warp containment field was weak on that ship. The containment field is what keeps the matter and anti-matter from mixing causing the breach. An overloaded engine wouldn't blow up a ship unless it lost antimatter containment which is precisely what a warp core breach is.
Bad example since it's not a galaxy class starship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm9Y3TmMXxg shows the enterprise-D having a warp core breach at 6:41. Here's another one of the enterprise-D having a warp core breach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxxTUXVblAA at 0:39. We see another in star trek generations and episode "all good things". What we see in parallels is a warp core breach as well. Maybe they didn't have much anti-matter left or the environment contained the explosion more I don't know but definitely a warp core breach.Darth Tedious wrote:Just in case you've never seen one, this is what a warp core breach looks like.
It's actually a very conservative example, the Intrepid Class has a smaller and more stable warp core than the GCS.darthy wrote:Bad example since it's not a galaxy class starship.
Had you predicted Metahive would say what he did, you would have written the OP more specifically.Enigma wrote:The explosion originated in the general area in the forward saucer area where the torpedo hit.
No such goal was specified.darthy wrote:This is why the scenario is set up where the fleet's goal is to overpower the armada. I'm asking who wins? What happens afterward is not important. I don't think the enterprise's will appear forever myself.
You did not write a goal into the OP, nor a condition of fighting to the death. The Imperial fleet needs only take a pot shot at the Enterprises and disengage. Any change to the OP's conditions at this point will be accepted as a concession on your part.The OP wrote:The empire sends their entire imperial fleet to Federation space. This includes their death star, all of their star destroyers, TIE fighters as seen during the movie Star Wars Return of the Jedi. The fleet makes its way to Federation space during the events of TNG episode "Parallels". The Fleet encounters the Enterprise-D while they are using a subspace differential pulse to scan a quantum fissure. The fleet engages then manages to destroy the Enterprise-D. Then quantum fissure destablizes and other Enterprise-D's begin to emerge into the galaxy. The Imperial Fleet begins to engage this fleet of Enterprise-D's. Who wins?
They could have been low on anti-matter so there was less anti-matter and matter mixing causing a less explosive effect.Based on the Enterprise's warp core breach in Generations, what we saw in parallels was most definitely not a warp core breach. It is actually quite likely that the ship destroyed was quite low on antimatter. Unless you're suggesting that every other version of the Enterprise is also quite low on antimatter, at least one of them will have a catastrophic breach.
Looks to me like they're pretty focused on the warp core for some reason. What are you proposing caused the explosion instead?WESLEY: Direct hit. Their shields have collapsed. Their engine core is overloading.
(KaBOOM)
RIKER: What happened?
WESLEY: It looks like the ship had already taken heavy damage. Their warp containment field must have been weak.
I said they'd engage the armada specifically so people wouldn't say they'd just hot tail it out of there.Had you predicted Metahive would say what he did, you would have written the OP more specifically.
a chain reaction of explosions is what you're hopeing for huh? In episode "timescape" the shuttle was able to survive witnessing a warp core breach without being destroyed. In generations, the saucer section survived the impact from a warp core breach. How about the runabouts viewing the destruction of a galaxy class starship in episode "Jem'hadar". In episode "all good things" each enterprise's destruction did not destroy the others.You did not write a goal into the OP, nor a condition of fighting to the death. The Imperial fleet needs only take a pot shot at the Enterprises and disengage. Any change to the OP's conditions at this point will be accepted as a concession on your part.
Not my fault. I'm pretending that the star wars I know is 100 times stronger and the federation I know is 100 times weaker (to get in the mindset of most of the people that post here). Then I make a worthy opponent.Formless wrote:Darthy, no one has said it yet: but whenever someone tries to concoct a magic "I win" button based on a one shot treknobabble effect/device that never appears after the episode it debuted in, regardless of whether or not it would actually work (being one shot means having very little data to go on, after all), the implicit suggestion is that the Federation can't win any other way. I'm not sure if that's something that you want to suggest, implicitly or no, but I'm just going with what you've written elsewhere.
Of course, now I'm thinking of posting a thread where a Star Wars technobabble anomaly happens and the Enterprise et al has to deal with it just to show you how vacuous said strategy is on its other merits, but I can't think of anything that would qualify. Star Wars writers tend to avoid plots that hinge on making the audience feel stupid.
