Morons in need of Imerial-Level Smack-Down

[jegs2]

Okay, so it's been several years since I had fun debating this stuff, but I know many here enjoy picking apart weak-kneed arguments, so I cordially invite you to go post here and counter such idiocy as the following:

okay, the Enterprise might be smaller than a star destroyer, but with Worf at the guns, those imperials don’t stand a chance. his fingers will fly across the buttons and the enterprise will cause havoc upon the star destroyer. besides, a star destroyer’s sheild generators are smack dab on the top of the dang ship, ya know, those balls on the top, target those and the star destroyer is defensless. once their gone, the imperials are history. and besides, even if the imperials send out fighters, worf will just kill them. the phasers on the enterprise are so advanced, they can target each individual fighter and destory them. and you forget, the enterprise can just get a transportor lock on the star destroyer’s captain, beam him over to the enterprise, and hold him hostage. and with that said, the enterprise can just beam in a bomb or a armed photon torpedo near the power source, and bye bye star destroyer. and they can just supercharge the phasers so they’ll punch right through the sheilds and armor of the star destroyer like a super-hot knife through butter. all that said, the USS Enterprise can so kick an imperial star destroyers ass. nuff said. STAR TREK RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many of the follow-on arguments are equally filled with uninspired stupidity, including some of the lame attempts to side with the ISD. Would really like to see some SD.NET folks tear apart some of those flimsy arguments. Have fun!

[jegs2]

Shielded Trek ships against unshielded TIE fighters? Yeah, I'd imagine so, though the only question would then be how much punishment could a Trek ship take from the TIE fighters' main weapons before they were all dispatched?

[Luke Skywalker]

I'd actually love to see TIE fighters vs the Enterprise... I'm indeed pretty sure they'd be shot down rapidly as if they were nothing, assuming the captain gives the kill order.

If by "see" you mean debut on the big screen, sure. But if by "see" you mean actually analyze it, it depends on the armament, of course. Tie bombers armed with multi-gigaton torpedos would surely end Jean-Luc's day pretty quick.

I know that you are a minimalist, and you probably scoff at the above; but observe the X wings traversing half of Yavin Prime in six seconds. Each one has enough kinetic energy to level New York City...or cripple the Enterprise.

[Stofsk]

I'd actually love to see TIE fighters vs the Enterprise... I'm indeed pretty sure they'd be shot down rapidly as if they were nothing, assuming the captain gives the kill order.

If by "see" you mean debut on the big screen, sure. But if by "see" you mean actually analyze it, it depends on the armament, of course. Tie bombers armed with multi-gigaton torpedos would surely end Jean-Luc's day pretty quick.

Why are Tie Bombers with anti-capship ordinance such a threat, but the Enterprise's hundreds of photon torpedos (which have a range of at least 300,000km - 'The Wounded') and multiple phaser banks (which also have a long range but not as long as photorps, and we see them used against space fighters in 'Conundrum') don't get a mention?

I know that you are a minimalist, and you probably scoff at the above; but observe the X wings traversing half of Yavin Prime in six seconds. Each one has enough kinetic energy to level New York City...or cripple the Enterprise.

Uh... not sure what point you're making here. Are you saying that SW space fighter pilots will go kamikaze or something?

[Luke Skywalker]

Why are Tie Bombers with anti-capship ordinance such a threat, but the Enterprise's hundreds of photon torpedos (which have a range of at least 300,000km - 'The Wounded')

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN5cR_1Yazc

Look at the end there. Yeah, they're surely going to be able to snipe tie bombers from several hundred kilometers distant. And Destructionator was referring to multiple tie fighters, each of which, if properly armed, could disintegrate the Enterprise in a single shot. Of course, this works both ways, but then we are left with sudden death between several small and difficult to hit starfighters and one considerably larger starship.

and multiple phaser banks (which also have a long range but not as long as photorps, and we see them used against space fighters in 'Conundrum') don't get a mention?

Missiles and torpedos will out-range phasers.

Uh... not sure what point you're making here. Are you saying that SW space fighter pilots will go kamikaze or something?

[/quote]

Firstly, it's in support of high SW reactor power (and, subsequently, firepower) that XIII is a skeptic of. Secondly, if starfighters can accelerate to such a velocity in the battle's time-frame, there's no reason that torpedos could not (especially given the "near light speed" weapons described in the RotS novelization), and that is going to make them significantly more difficult to shoot down.

--------------------------------------------

Granted, I am saying this all on the assumption that tie fighters can be armed with heavy warheads, a trait more typical of tie bombers. Obviously, if they're only armed with their two laser cannons, nothing short of a dozen squadrons would suffice.

[Stofsk]

Look at the end there. Yeah, they're surely going to be able to snipe tie bombers from several hundred kilometers distant.

The point I'm making is you can't go 'lol arm TIEZ with teh SPACEBOMBZ the end' because that's an absurdly one-sided and myopic way to analyse any versus match up. You look at the totality of the evidence, and account for discrepancies where you can rather than ignore them wholesale. A lot of the battles in ST take place in visual range. A lot of the battles in SW also take place in visual ranges. BOTH have BVR battle ranges implied or even outright stated in numerous examples. The former doesn't trump the latter, because they're both canonical. So you have to ask why the latter exists if the former also exists, and the answer to that is because of a number of variables we likely don't have the full answer to (the SW side usually brings up 'jamming' as their standard fallback answer, and the same can be said of the Trek side as well).

In any case, it doesn't matter if Tiez can be fitted with Spacebombz and one-shot the Enterprise if the Enterprise has their own Spacebombz that can each one-shot a single Tie let alone a dozen of them.

[Ted C]

Oh, the nonsense that keeps getting thrown around. So many assertions, so little evidence.

okay, the Enterprise might be smaller than a star destroyer, but with Worf at the guns, those imperials don’t stand a chance. his fingers will fly across the buttons and the enterprise will cause havoc upon the star destroyer.

Because we see that in SO many Star Trek space battles. The one time he actually executed an order to "commence rapid fire with all weapons" (TNG "The Survivors"), I wasn't terribly impressed with the rate of fire. And let's just ignore the defenses on the target, shall we?

besides, a star destroyer’s sheild generators are smack dab on the top of the dang ship, ya know, those balls on the top, target those and the star destroyer is defensless.

Because it's always wise to base arguments on video game mechanics. Learn to differentiate cause and effect; Is that dome a shield generator? Or was its destruction just a symptom of the shield failure? You really can't tell from the movie, and secondary sources don't all agree.

once their gone, the imperials are history. and besides, even if the imperials send out fighters, worf will just kill them.

Because destroying those pathetic drones from TNG "Conundrum" is automatically the same as destroying TIE fighters.

the phasers on the enterprise are so advanced, they can target each individual fighter and destory them.

Completely ignoring all the times that phasers have missed larger, slower targets than TIEs.

and you forget, the enterprise can just get a transportor lock on the star destroyer’s captain, beam him over to the enterprise, and hold him hostage.

Because NOTHING interferes with transporter function, least of all shields.

and with that said, the enterprise can just beam in a bomb or a armed photon torpedo near the power source, and bye bye star destroyer.

Which happens ALL THE TIME in Star Trek, doesn't it.

and they can just supercharge the phasers so they’ll punch right through the sheilds and armor of the star destroyer like a super-hot knife through butter. all that said, the USS Enterprise can so kick an imperial star destroyers ass. nuff said. STAR TREK RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And, of course, no math, either. I could just as easily assert that a Star Destroyer could annihilate the Enterprise with one light turbolaser shot.

If this post is typical of that forum, it's all assumptions and no substance.

[Ted C]

Good grief, I just noticed that the linked article is years old.

[jegs2]

Good grief, I just noticed that the linked article is years old.

Indeed, though the latest response is but a couple of months old. Just dislike seeing such overt stupidity go unchallenged.

[the atom]

Ugh. I noticed yet more of this idiotic insistence that the EU is 'non-canon'.

[Batman]

For a lot of the EU we'd probably be better off if it weren't. Not that the tactic of ignoring the EU isn't already counterproductive anyway-a lot of the EU examples inevitably result in considerably lower numbers for the Wars side than the movies do.

[jegs2]

For a lot of the EU we'd probably be better off if it weren't. Not that the tactic of ignoring the EU isn't already counterproductive anyway-a lot of the EU examples inevitably result in considerably lower numbers for the Wars side than the movies do.

Can see your point there: Have been reading about the Yuuzhong Vong and their weapons, and I've a hard time believing their volcano guns are so effective at punching through shields.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I love this quote:

and with that said, the enterprise can just beam in a bomb or a armed photon torpedo near the power source, and bye bye star destroyer.

The only example of anyone in Trek doing that is here:

Dark Frontier

And ironically, that was an accident- they only meant to disable the probe, not destroy it

[AMT]

I love this quote:

and with that said, the enterprise can just beam in a bomb or a armed photon torpedo near the power source, and bye bye star destroyer.

The only example of anyone in Trek doing that is here:

Dark Frontier

And ironically, that was an accident- they only meant to disable the probe, not destroy it

Does that matter? It's still an example.

[jegs2]

And good luck beaming a torpedo through a shielded ISD. Unlike Trek-verse, Imperial ships have two types of shields.

[PeZook]

Feh, fucking around with transporters has always been a tactic that reeks of fighting an armored spearhead by running at the tanks with blowtorches and grenades: it might work 0,01% of the time, but it's hardly something you could DEPEND on to win engagements, so nobody sane will use it. Same reason why headshots will instantly kill any modern soldier, yet everyone shoots center-of-mass.

[Lord Revan]

Yeah but more often then not people in these debates are looking for a "silver bullet" to allow their side to win rather then objectivly trying to find out which side is the better. so tactics and strategies that have really low probability to work consistently and relibly are a-ok if they allow the "right side" to win when they do work (and obviously they'll never fail when the so called "right side" is using them even if you got as little a chance to get it to work as it's to win a lottery 10 times in a row). that's why you get stuff like transporter tricks or tactics using technology that may or may not be lost or otherwise unusble.

In short they're not intrested in finding a tactic that would work under a realistic scenario, rather something they can use to claim "I win, you loose!"

[Mask-999]

As a Trekkie, I am disappointed. Even I know better than to argue against Imperial military might compared to the so called "warships" which end up like glorified interstellar taxis.
Also, hasn't it been argued that SW shields work much like ST shields and so when active would be able to stop transporters?
Beaming in a bomb only works when shields are down, which kinda defeats the purpose unless it was necessary to take out a huge compound that just so happened to be unshielded.
And what is all that stuff about Worf's fingers flying across the buttons? It's not like it makes a difference as to effectiveness of the weapons against the shield.

[Havok]

The transporter argument always cracks me up.

In pretty much every iteration of Star Trek, the transporter is the cause of more problems than anything else, either due to being off line, unable to penetrate XYZ, or being disrupted/jammed by XYZ.

For all anyone knows the metal used in Imperial bathroom sinks could screw up the transporter signal/beam.

Of course the best point is that transporters to my knowledge have never been able to penetrate shields on starships. There is zero reason to think that Star Wars shields would be any less effective and you would just have to view them as a new race the Enterprise is encountering.

[Batman]

IIRC the Borg in 'Q Who' managed to beam in before the shields failed and O'Brien managed to technobabble a way through the shields of USS Phoenix in 'The Wounded' but that's all that comes to mind. Of course, the Borg aren't exactly the Federation and O'Brien dit it with technology he was intimately familiar with againt a ship he knew. Against Imperial shields...slightly different situation.

[Enigma]

Yet Janeway managed to transport a torp into a Borg scout ship with its shields down.....

[Batman]

Err-given they can beam perfectly fine when the shields are down that would make perfect sense?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

IIRC the Borg in 'Q Who' managed to beam in before the shields failed and O'Brien managed to technobabble a way through the shields of USS Phoenix in 'The Wounded' but that's all that comes to mind. Of course, the Borg aren't exactly the Federation and O'Brien dit it with technology he was intimately familiar with againt a ship he knew. Against Imperial shields...slightly different situation.

Another example was in ST Insurrection, where Ru'afo's ship was used to beam Picard onto the collector despite its shields being up- they had to maneuver within a few hundred metres to do it though. Pretty rare examples all told

[mutanthamster]

The most amazing aspect of this topic is how the supporters of Star Wars consistently believe that the Imperial space ships would stand a chance against the far superior Federation technology.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The most amazing aspect of this topic is how the supporters of Star Wars consistently believe that the Imperial space ships would stand a chance against the far superior Federation technology.

I almost fell out of my chair laughing- care to quantify this?

You picked the wrong thread to troll here