The Effect of "Human High Culture"

[Dare Devil]

I have been browsing a bit here and most people seem to believe that ST and SW would go to war immediately, but I am not so sure about that. The reason for this is the Empire’s “Human High Culture” thing.

Anyway, imagine the following scenario. A civilian Star Wars ship found a wormhole to the Milky Way. There it finds an old Star Trek ship with enough info about the Federation to convince the captain of the SW ship that Earth is the planet where mankind developed. He jumps back to the SW galaxy and the news is all over the news and only a bit later the Emperor has to deal with a public that is so extremely thrilled about the thought of getting into touch with their roots that a military campaign with the Federation/Earth could easily turn into a public relations disaster.

Basically the Emperor has to decide to
1) Initiate diplomatic relations hoping to be hailed as the man who got SW’s humans back in touch with their roots, thereby using the whole “Human High Culture” thing to generate a huge amount of genuinely felt loyalty for the Empire.
2) Initiate diplomatic relations while secretly planning to start a war with the Federation soon so as to secure AQ resources without looking like the bad guy and without alienating those who adhere to the “Human High Culture” idea.
3) Ignore all diplomatic options and go to war with the Federation immediately, thereby risking to alienate every human who adheres to the “Human High Culture” idea.


My personal guess is that the Emperor would go for option 1 while also planning for option 2 “just in case” as he is a manipulator, but what do you think?Which option is the most likely one? Also, how would the Federation react, if Darth Vader jumped into their space in order to initiate diplomatic relations? My guess is that it wouldn’t take long for the Federation to figure out the Empire’s nature, but also its power. So, how would, for instance, Picard deal with Lord Vader? Or how would the DS9 crew react to the crew of a Star Destroyer on “shore leave”? Also, how would the other AQ powers come into play? The Klingons and the Romulans would probably shudder at the thought of an alliance between the Empire and the Federation, or would they?

[Srelex]

Why would the humans of the SW galaxy be all over what's basically a planet in another whole universe so easily, when it's generally accepted there that Coruscant is their origin world? More likely they'd assume that Earth is home to a parallel humanity, or in some alternate realm altogether. It'd probably be more like a curiosity.

I also don't think Palpatine would particularly care about PR, given his regime, and the Feds are going to find the Empire abhorrent from the get-go. Given that the very president of the UFP is an alien, and the whole multi-species nature of that polity, I don't think the overly humanist elements in the Empire will be very impressed with it all anyway.

[Dare Devil]

If I get this right then mankind's origin in the SW universe is more a matter of legend. Hard evidence that shows that mankind developed on Earth could therefore very well trigger the romantic/unlogical wish to find out more about Earth. Those who adhere to the Human High Culture idea would surely dislike the Federation just as much as the Federation would dislike the Empire, but to go to war with their human brethren and risking to destroy their heritage could stop them.

I could, however, imagine diplomatic negotiations between the Federation and a Lord Vader who would prefer to get back to tracking down Luke Skywalker to go along the lines like this.

Vader: "Usually the Empire just takes what it wants. Be glad that we feel a certain romantic notion for Earth, but don't alienate *turns his head towards a non-human crew member of the Enterprise* us too much."

[Simonoz]

I think we should take the question as is, rather than proving it's improbability.
I reckon the emperor would want it hushed up, but if word got put, then i think they would either go into very one sided diplomacy (you will accept us your masters or lose a costly and unwinnable war) or a snatch and grab of Earth and a quick coupe de grace of the federation.

[Dare Devil]

From the Emperor's point of view it would be best, if the Federation surrendered willingly, imho. This would, however, require the Federation to understand how extremely powerful the Empire is. Another option would be a gradual process of corruption of the Federation similar to the corruption of the Old Republic during the Clone Wars. All it would take would be a powerful enemy who would threaten the Federation. And if such a sufficiently strong enemy should not come up naturally, then the Emperor could easily use smugglers to empower such an enemy sufficiently. Even the Borg could be used like that. All it would take would be to arrange for the right person to be assimilated. It would be necessary for said person to have sufficient knowledge to give the Borg the chance for another shot at the Federation while still being ignorant to the fact of being a pawn in the Emperor's plans, but the Emperor is still a master of manipulation.

The Empire coming to the rescue of the Federation combined with a propaganda campaign could have a tremendous effect in the long run. A little bit of well dosed fear wouldn't hurt either, of course.



Also, this approach would make up for more interesting stories than a military campaign where the Empire would beat the Federation without any serious effort.

[Eleas]

Having proof that humans, almost uniquely in the SW Galaxy, came from another galaxy entirely... well, I really can't see that as being damaging to the cult of human supremacy. It would only be proof of humans being uniquely special, and that's what HHC is all about, after all.

[Dare Devil]

I hadn't thought of that before, but yeah, I can totally see the Empire using such a discovery in its propaganda. It would, however, make it more difficult for the Emperor to justify a war against the Federation without risking the support of a good deal of humans. The thought of maybe having to bomb even parts of the Earth could very well cost him a lot of support. Usually the Emperor does not care about this, but mostly because the military is loyal to him. HHC seems to play an important role in the military though and the thought of alienating the very soldiers he needs for controlling the Empire could very well make the Emperor consider peaceful, or at least sneakier options in this very special case.

I just wonder how the Federation would wiggle itself through diplomatic negotiations with the Empire once the Federation knows what the Empire is about and how unbelievably more powerful it is! My personal guess is that the Federation would try to give the Empire as little as possible, but without driving the Empire to a point where the Emperor could declare war without looking bad to his soldiers. This would probably not even change, if the Federation discovered the Emperor secretly driving another AQ race into a war against the Federation. The risk that the Imperial Fleet would rather believe the Emperor and not the Federation would be too high which is why the Federation would probably keep such a discovery secret.

Still, any encounter between Imperial personnel and Starfleet personnel would be difficult at best. I mean, how would, for instance, Sisko react if a couple of Stormtroopers on shore leave made racist jokes about Quark? Would he have them arrested telling their ISD captain that this was necessary to maintain discipline - the need for discipline is something that every Imperial should be able to understand -, or would Sisko screw up and cause even more tension with the Empire? And how would Picard react, if he was having a vivid and interesting discussion with a curious ISD captain about Earth's history with the ISD captain suddenly making a casual remark about how the destruction of Hiroshima would remind him of how he subdued an uprising on a planet in the SW galaxy? Or what about Lord Vader? He would be very likely to make at least an occasional threat. How would Picard handle him?

[bilateralrope]

Or what about Lord Vader? He would be very likely to make at least an occasional threat. How would Picard handle him?

If Vader in involved in the Trek galaxy, wouldn't it mean that the Empire has decided that the time for diplomacy is over ?

As for justifying the war, how censored are news organizations within the Empire ?
Now think about how much easier it will be to censor news from the trek galaxy when the wormhole is the only way for news to come through. Especially if the wormhole gets fortified as soon as the Empire realizes that it's stable and that they have no clue what's on the other side.

[Dare Devil]

Well, the idea is that the SW galaxy already learned about Earth being mankind's home before the Empire could control the news. So, even if ordinary citizens would get no further info then the Imperial personnel on board of a fleet heading for the ST galaxy would still know about Earth as well. And since most Imperial soldiers are humans who adhere to the HHC ideals... you get the idea. No matter how loyal they are, having to fight and maybe having to bombard Earth could put their loyalty to the test. I'm not saying that they would outright rebel against the Emperor, but the Emperor is no fool and to alienate his own soldiers would still be risky at best. HHC and the HHC influenced military is simply too important for him to maintain his power.

Using the discovery of Earth in the spirit of HHC could make his soldiers even more fanatical and more loyal though. Fighting for the Emperor would no longer only be about bringing order to the SW galaxy, it would also be about protecting their human heritage. Failing would mean to endanger Earth, to endanger mankind's original homeworld. Also, the Emperor could be portrayed as the selfless defender of mankind and that could very well cause more loyalty towards him than any terror campaign. Attacking the Federation/Earth though would be putting the loyalty of his human military to the test and the Emperor could very well NOT be willing to take this gamble.

No matter how much the Emperor himself does not believe in HHC, he does still know that soldiers need ideals if you want them to be willing to risk their lives for you, and the discovery of Earth could easily be used to give them a very powerful ideal. Fighting against Earth though... Not just the Rebel Alliance's propaganda would be all over this, HHC itself could very well work against the Emperor there.

[Simonoz]

The empire might not be able to bomb the earth, but HHC would make it a priority to subjugate it.

[Dominarch's Hope]

I believe that the main issue is that the next major crises that the Federation faces, the Empire can swoop in and lolstomp them into oblvion, with the exception of the Borg.

Problem with the Borg is that unlike some stories where they escalate to multiple waves of hundreds of ships, I think that anything capable of destroying 50 Borg cubes while being outnumbered would warn the Queen that what they are facing is an order of magnitude or more more powerful than what they have.

So it would be more like. 1 Cube. 2 Cubes. Then the data gets sent back. 50 Cubes. That doesnt work and more data is sent back. Now at this point, it can be fairly clear what exactly the disparities are. So the next attack, definately the one immediately afterwards, will have the full weight of the collective brought down upon it. Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of ships, deployed to the same combat theater within the hour once organized.

Although a fairly large force consisting of two Executor Class ships and 100s of ISD and ISD2 and a couple thousand smaller vessels would stand a hefty chance, a force as small as what we saw as the ambush force in ROTJ wouldnt have it easy.

A single ISD wouldnt stand much of a chance it it stayed out on its own.

Although other than hyperspace, I dont see what tech the Borg could make much use of from the Empire that wouldnt also require setting up Hypermatter facilities.

Of course, its possible the Borg retrofit a Cube or two and some Spheres to be Quantum Torpedo Boats.


The culture clash would be obvious, and certain arrogant species would have the shit slapped right out of them if they tried anything, Cardassian and Klingons, Im looking at you.

[lPeregrine]

No matter how loyal they are, having to fight and maybe having to bombard Earth could put their loyalty to the test.

Not that bombing it is even necessary. People like to skip straight to "exterminate them from orbit" to resolve the debate as quickly and efficiently as possible, but it would be a last resort plan if all else somehow fails. Earth, and with it the Federation, would be taken in one of two ways:

1) Install a more pragmatic and favorable government. The canon Federation government may hate the idea of war and a strong military, but we know (STVI, for example) that there are factions in the Federation that disagree. Give them support, bring them into power, and then offer a treaty in which the Federation submits to Imperial control in exchange for conquest of all of their rivals. There might be limited assassinations by "Romulan agents" or whatever, but the only real fighting would be against the Federation's enemies.

2) "For too long have our fellow humans suffered under misguided zealots who hold them short of their full potential! We must fight, not as conquerors, but as liberators!". The Federation's government is attacked and destroyed with precision weapons, and the Federation is absorbed into the Empire for its own good. Earth's citizens are so used to peace that it's unlikely there would be any kind of mass resistance, and then it's just a job for the police and propaganda experts.

Neither case involves any kind of indiscriminate killing, and it's easy to present any fighting as a necessary evil carefully aimed only at the few traitors to humanity. The invasion force would probably emphasize non-lethal weapons as much as possible, but I don't think that there would be any issues of divided loyalty that would prevent the kind of limited-scale fighting against other humans that would be necessary.

Problem with the Borg is that unlike some stories where they escalate to multiple waves of hundreds of ships, I think that anything capable of destroying 50 Borg cubes while being outnumbered would warn the Queen that what they are facing is an order of magnitude or more more powerful than what they have.

That's the worst thing the Borg could do, short of just self destructing everything and saving the Empire the trouble. When the Imperial fleet effortlessly stops 50 Borg cubes and saves Earth from certain destruction the Federation's leaders will beg to be allowed to place themselves under Imperial protection. And even if they somehow get a sufficiently large fleet to Earth before the Empire installs planetary shields/swarms of gun platforms in orbit/etc the best they can hope for is to provoke an Imperial extermination campaign in revenge for the destruction of Earth.

The best thing the Borg could do in this situation is fortify their existing territory and do absolutely nothing that could possibly provoke the Federation and their new allies.

Although a fairly large force consisting of two Executor Class ships and 100s of ISD and ISD2 and a couple thousand smaller vessels would stand a hefty chance, a force as small as what we saw as the ambush force in ROTJ wouldnt have it easy.

Remember, this is the human homeworld we're talking about. Given the scale of the Empire's industry there would be thousands of star destroyers, planetary shielding that would make any Imperial planet jealous, vast swarms of automated gun platforms in orbit covering every possible approach, etc. There's no way such a priceless planet is going to be left with a minimal ROTJ-size fleet protecting it.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm fairly sure even Coruscant doesn't have thousands of Star Destroyers guarding it. And since when was the fleet in Return of the Jedi (with about as many star destroyers as a sector fleet as I recall) a minimal fleet? Besides, the Empire rarely if ever puts that many ships in one place.

[lPeregrine]

The fleet at Endor would have to be minimal because it was a trap. The more ships the Empire deploys to Endor the more likely it is that a rebel spy (whether on one of the ships, or simply someone in a position to overhear a careless crew member talking about their new orders, or whatever) is able to spot the ship movements and realize that there's actually a significant Imperial fleet waiting for them. So the fleet would be sufficient to engage the expected rebel attack and pin them in place for the death star, but it wouldn't be a full-scale effort to get the defenses as strong as possible.

The mobile defenses at Coruscant don't have to be very strong. The planet has shields capable of holding off any realistic attack long enough for massive reinforcements to arrive from nearby systems, fixed gun platforms in orbit, and the rebels simply don't have enough of a fleet to demand thousands of star destroyers. Meanwhile the rebels wouldn't even want to attack Coruscant until long after the Emperor is dead. A hit-and-run attack would just massacre civilians and remove all sympathy for the rebellion while a proper invasion/liberation (even if one were possible) would be overextending to a suicidal degree. Coruscant needs decent defenses to crush any small-scale commerce raiding attempt, not overkill defenses aimed at fighting a full-scale fleet battle that isn't going to happen.

Earth, on the other hand, is in a very different position. As the human homeworld it's arguably even more valuable than Coruscant, but has no defenses and is in a galaxy where it is surrounded by equal-level enemies eager to destroy or conquer it. Therefore the most likely action by the Empire would be to deploy a massive fleet and ensure that nothing gets through the fleet to exploit Earth's lack of planetary shielding, while simultaneously beginning construction of fixed defenses capable of laughing off anything the rival Star Trek factions can throw at it. Thousands of star destroyers might be exaggerating a bit, but Earth's new defenses are going to be way more than a single star destroyer sitting around waiting for the Borg cube zerg rush to arrive.

[The Romulan Republic]

You made some good points.

But thousands of Star Destroyers is more than I think they'd have. The Empire has tens of thousands of Star Destroyers for an entire galaxy. They're probably not going to put that much of their fleet in one system that, for all the cultural importance it has, is worth very little in terms of resources or industry.

I also doubt there'd be any point to it. Against most of the Star Trek factions (probably even the Borg) it would be overkill. And for the others, like the Q, it would probably be useless.

It'll probably have more than a single Star Destroyer though. I agree with that.

[Eleas]

The most appropriate response would probably be to send at least an oversector group. By recommendation, an oversector group would consist of three or more sector groups, each containing "at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which were Star Destroyers (Imperial-class Star Destroyers were the norm, but some groups contained older model Star Destroyers), and another 1,600 combat starships" (source: WEG Imperial Sourcebook by way of Wookieepedia). As for how many command ships and heavy battle wagons that would entail, I'm not certain, but it seems incongruous to me that there wouldn't be at least a handful of battlecruisers and battleships in such a fleet. There'd probably also be a beefed-up support element (fleet tenders, freighters, construction vessels) given the remoteness of the theatre.

[The Romulan Republic]

An oversector group just for Earth seems excessive.

An oversector group might be a good force for the whole Federation. They could have a sector fleet to defend Earth (I recall reading that the Imperial capital was defended by a similar force), use a sector fleet to defend the rest of the Federation, and keep a third sector fleet as a reserve or for offensives.

[Eleas]

The oversector group would be responsible for creating the beachhead and fortifying Earth with the assumption that primary fleet strikes would converge there. After the initial large scale engagement was over, of course, there'd be no need to keep such a vast amount of ships there, which is why large parts of the oversector group would probably be used in much the same way as intended, i.e. be sent out in all directions to root out rebel scum throughout the Federation.

[Admiral Mercury]

The problem is that the discovery of Earth can just as easily be used to justify war. Even if the Empire accepts that it is the homeland of humanity, it just depends on the framing.

"Good news, Imperial subjects! We've found mankind's long lost home planet, but it's tragic! The planet is ruled by a backward and primitive 'Federation'. It's up to us to lead our lost brothers out of the darkness and into the glory that is the Empire. While it's likely that they'll hate us at first, even fight us, what we do is right. It is every Imperial citizen's duty to help save our long lost brothers and sisters from themselves. See your local Army recruiting office for more details."

[Simonoz]

I think that basically, whatever the Imperial propaganda said is all that the people are going to get. The Empire might even keep it confidential - until the war is over, or just so that the Emperor can have his second private galaxy/playground